Talk:AntiSora

Anti-Sora?

Anti-Sora? I thought his name was Shadow Sora, like the Shadow Roxas in his Twilight Town.Therequiembellishere 02:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In the official game guide for the game the normal enemy is called Shadow Sora, but the boss is called Anti-Sora.

Durza - 10:17 PM - 3/2/'07

By "the normal enemy" are you talking about the small one that fly around in the battles?Therequiembellishere 21:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I don't think it's a Heartless, it's just his Shadow-er-Anti-Form.Therequiembellishere 21:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do mean that. And I guess I don't know if it's a Heartless or not, but I'd that's the best way to categorize it. Durza 16:46 - 5 March - 2007

I don't think it's the best way. Sure, it's Heartless-esque, but a true Heartless certainly can't be born when Sora hasn't lost his heart. I say it should be a normal enemy.

It's possible it's just a Heartless that can take the form of someone else, not necessarily Sora's Heartless. Other than that, I have no real opinion. Scott ch 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Can this be merged with Anti-Sora? They seemed to be lesser versions of A.Sora.--N/A

*thumbs up* --Hecko X 11:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

article needs a bit of cleaning up and to make things clearer. reading this discussion page cleared it up, but shadow sora and anti-sora need to be made more distinct.

I found anti-sora to be an incredibly hard fight (second to the riku fight before behemoth, which murdered me for days.) might wanna stick a tip or two in there if you have one. personally, i just retry until i get a lucky break.

Rikloud - sleep
TALK - Yeah well seems like a boring place to take a nap anyway

I didn't find him that hard only took me 3 or 4 tries which is nothing compared to the number of times it took me to beat Cerberus the 1st time or Giant Ursula (I haven't got to the first Dark Riku fight yet)

Where do I put the strategy ?

I've been merging strategy info from Villains in Kingdom Hearts/Strategies, and once I've merged the info, I remove it.

The sections that I've still left there, I've no idea on how to merge them. A bigger puzzle is that of Anti-Sora. Here, we see more of a story than a strategy page. Where exactly do I put the strategy ?

Another issue with this page is that it has info about AntiForm, which is supposed to be exclusive to Kingdom Hearts II. Shouldn't we just explicitly say that this is the enemy page for Anti-Sora from the first Kingdom Hearts ?

Today you will be examined for the Mark of Mastery. • Trois Nyx Étienne

Done?

Orpheus of the Lyre ^{Let's Talk !} — Prepare to scream !

_{Sally, why didn't I listen to you?}

I know this is in the improvement section but besides minor changes and trivia, is this article basically done?

"Heartless"

1) It showed up at the Awakening, and became a Heartless;

In a dream sequence that has no bearing on the reality of the Kingdom Hearts universe. Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them.

2) Hook calls the Shadow Sora's Heartless;

No, he doesn't.

The only times he mentions Heartless are

"Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats."

"Hmph. You’re wasting your time! The Heartless have devoured that girl's heart. I'll stake me other hand it’s lost forever."

AntiSora is never mentioned in dialogue. Ever. You are now imagining evidence for your position.

And Sora's Heartless is, surprise, the Shadow he became in Hollow Bastion! You can't have a Heartless while still having a heart.

3) ) It has yellow Heartless goddamn eyes;

So does AntiForm and Hostile Program. Are these now Pureblood Heartless?

4) What the hell do you think Shadows ARE?

I ask you the same thing. Do you seriously think they're the actual, literal shadows of beings? When there's no indication in the games? At all?

Sora has no shadow during that part of the game. The shadow is playful and mocks Sora. Y'know, like Peter Pan's shadow in the film, Peter Pan, which the Neverland world is based on? It has no entry in the Journal, not even in Final Mix, as opposed to every Heartless. Plackers 20:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

...really? You're trying to use "It's too absurd to believe that such a world could exist?" in Kingdom Hearts? By the way, do you remember how he got to Traverse Town?
....um, yeah, and the hold was crawling with Shadow Sora's. It's pretty 2+2=4 right there.
...then where did the first Heartless come from? Again, the series is pretty clear that Pureblood's are the darkness within hearts made manifest - this is why whenever you see someone having their heart stolen, they become an Emblem, not a Pureblood, while a Darkside appears from the whole Sora, and Zexion explains that the Destiny Islands Darkside was from Riku. As for "making up evidence" - umm, you're asking us to believe that there is some type of enemy called "Dark Manifestation" (a term you made up), that Riku has the power to make them here, when he mentions being able to control Heartless, but not anywhere else in the series, where he has pretty explicit power over darkness, and is better at it to boot, and that for some reason this is the only enemy in the series that is neither Heartless, Nobody, Disney, or Final Fantasy. What?!
Also, what do you think Guardian is? It's not part of Xehanort's Heartless, it's, well, his guardian. Which is not his Heartless.
Well, Nomura did say that AntiForm was, yes. Hostile Program is not, but seriously - manifested shadows with Heartless eyes, made by someone who says he learned how to control the Heartless? Who do you think you're fooling?
Umm, fuck yeah: "Creatures that seemed born of darkness...What are they? Are they truly sentient beings? Could they be the shadows of those who lost their hearts in my experiments?"
...Bit Sniper, huh? How about World of Chaos? Or Guardian? You do have a chance to pull out your journal after the first battle with Ansem, so it's not that you just can't check it. How about Shadow Sora? And why would that matter, anyway? If it was a Disney character as you claim, well Glut is too.

Your main thrust here seems to be that the AntiSora is based off of a concept in Peter Pan, so it must not be a Heartless. Well, that ignores how pretty much all Heartless appear - the Bouncywild is based off of monkeys in Tarzan, the Nightwalker is based off the Chinese Jiang Shi. Even the Pureblood Dark Thorn is based off of Beast's rose. Glorious CHAOS! 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

How is how Sora got to Traverse Town germane to anything? Dive to the Heart was an internal process for Sora. He never actually left the beach he was sleeping on.
Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals. And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it.
Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness? Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally. And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean. You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess.
...A part of Xehanort's Heartless? Do people really believe it's a being in its own right?
Provide the source for Nomura saying AntiForm is.
Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you.
Two are in the final battle, which they never base journal entries on, nor could you be able to check it after defeating both. Guardian is an aspect of Xehanort's Heartless (so is World of Chaos, for that matter).

My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You also seem to be interpreting this section:

"Riku: The Heartless obey me now, Sora. Now I have nothing to fear.
Sora: You’re stupid. Sooner or later they’ll swallow your heart.
Riku: Not a chance. My heart’s too strong.
Sora: Riku...
Riku: I’ve picked up a few other tricks as well. Like this, for instance"

As meaning that the Shadow Sora creation is distinct from his ability to control the Heartless. Well, this ignores the main mythology behind Pureblood Heartless (that they are the darkness in people's hearts) and the symbolism in the beginning of the game. Plus, if he is creating Heartless in that scene, it would fit perfectly with what he says - and obviously, he's creating something.

Then this: "Captain Hook: Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats. "

Since Riku doesn't say anything about sending the Shadow Soras after Sora, and Hook doesn't mention it either, it stands to reason that, since they know that the Shadow Sora's are down there, that they are included as Heartless.

Then, we have this:

"It is confirmed by Tetsuya Nomura that this event triggered a side effect and created the AntiForm when Sora was given his new clothes and Drive Form abilities a year later. "

This isn't explicit evidence, but it puts a huge hole in the theory that AntiSora is something unrelated to Heartless. Glorious CHAOS! 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

A quote (without a source, no less) which you cribbed off the "Shadow Form" article. That establishes absolutely nothing in relation to AntiSora/Shadow Sora. And, holy god, stop making plurals with apostrophes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"There is no difference between a “pure blood” Heartless, and the ones with the emblems, only the process of their births. But a heart does not appear from the pure blood Heartless. This is touched upon in Kingdom Hearts 1, and may be elaborated on in the future." Plackers 11:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between Anti and Shadow Sora (Both KH1)? - Endless Oblivion

Anti sora is the sora shaped heartless Sora fights and Shadow sora is sora while he is a shadow heartless in hollow bastion -orpheus of the lyre

AntiSora is the boss enemy. Shadow Sora is the regular enemy you encounter on the way to the AntiSora fight. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them."

This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane. If you want to bring up that it's only an internal process, that's acceptable, that's fine, but it's stupid to claim that "it has no bearing on the KH universe", seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence, and there's an entire world made out of hearts, showing that what happens in them affects others.

Here's the AntiForm quote, and it actually implies that Riku's Dark Mode is pseudo-Heartless as well, meaning that all original enemies in KH are Heartless to some extent: "Concerning Sora’s AntiForm, you could think that the reason is related to his changing into a heartless once before. In fact, beyond Sora’s Nobody, it is natural to assume that Sora is influenced by the heartless. Riku’s Dark Mode is similar."

"Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals."

They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words. How about you stop trying to get off point?

"And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it."

The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that. And they can appear three at a time, so that too. As for "why I take it to be a relative reference" - because Hook does not refer to anything else, therefore the implication is that he is including the Shadow Sora in his reference to the Heartless.

"Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness?"

Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".

Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...

"Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally."

...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.

"And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean."

If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.

"You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess."

Crank Tower is part of Queen of Hearts, a Disney enemy, though Riku could count. But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway? My point was that, in that game, there is no non-Heartless/Disney/FF enemy. So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none. However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless, and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.

"Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you."

How about, when we're discussing a work that doesn't take the metaphorical and literal and splice them together Frankenstein-style, I will. In the absence of such a discussion, no I think it's completely fair to take the name literally. And again - The same "SORA's SHADOW BECOMES HEARTLESS" sequence happens right there, in the beginning of the game, and each time we see a strong Pureblood Heartless, it is in response to someone's darkness - the DI Darkside for Riku, the Dark Thorn for the Beast, etc. You can try to write the intro off as "dreams", but that won't work, as dreams are shown to be quite a real thing in the series. Hell, in "Through the Looking Glass", Wonderland was written off as a dream, but we still went there, didn't we?

"My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes."

For having no journal entry - not any sort of evidence. Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.

For the Ultimania guides - I've not had a chance to read them. What do they refer to for Guardian, Bit Sniper, World of Chaos, and Ansem?

As for "no evidence" - seriously? You're trying denial at this point? Okay:

For the journal, the AntiSora and Shadow Sora don't appear as anything else, so it's valid to assume they could be any of them from the journal alone.
It appears as Sora's shadow, in the same manner as in the Awakening, which became a Heartless. For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk, in a real enough world that others could enter, so the analogue is well supported.
Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart, and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.
AntiSora appears very similar to AntiForm, explained by Nomura to be a Heartless-like form of Sora. Plus, "Anti" being used to name both sets up a strong correlation, similar to the "Shadow" shared by Shadow, Gigant Shadow, Mega Shadow, Neo Shadow, and Next Shadow.
The yellow eyes belong predominantly to the Heartless, with one exception, so it's a valid use.
Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

There are some obstacles to this, though: according to you Ultimania does not call it a Heartless (how exactly does it call other enemies Heartless, though?), and Riku mentions "other tricks" beyond controlling the Heartless (though turning things into Heartless would serve quite well as an "other trick"). While the boss is quite closely linked to the Peter Pan theme, it still stems from someone controlling Heartless, not a PP character, and most Heartless are themed by the world they appear in - for example, Dark Thorn, a beast-like rose-based Pureblood Heartless, that would serve as a perfect analogue to the AntiSora for Beast instead of Sora. Right now, the Ultimania guide looks like the only thing that could specifically prove it's not a Heartless, besides a quote from Nomura, who doesn't seem to have talked about AntiSora at all. How exactly does the Ultimania guide show that AntiSora is or isn't a Heartless, and how does it show the ones who are a Heartless that they are? Can you provide a few scans, please?Glorious CHAOS! 18:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Section break

This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane.

Bwha? He gets to Traverse Town through a random dark corridor. Dive into the Heart is, again, an internal process and does not involve physical transportation.

seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence

Dark corridor. Read the Ansem Reports and please stop bringing up random shit.

They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words.

No, they aren't. This, like much you believe, is imagined.

The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that.

4:57. Shadow Sora only allows you to deplete half of his HP, and retreats into the floor. Please pay attention to the games you are playing next time.

Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".

So Kairi somehow restored Sora from simply his darkness. His actual heart is lost forever.

Do you honestly not realize your mind-numbingly literal reading of everything simply makes things more complicated and inconsistent?

Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...

No? His statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, which shouldn't be if your explanation holds water. The two types are stated to be the same "other than process of birth". One being made of hearts and the other not is a pretty huge difference.

...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.

"What I believe to be metaphor is literal, therefore all cases of metaphor are literal!" What? You are confusing metaphor with figurative things in the real world taken literally in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Metaphors that are literal are not metaphors.

If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.

...It's called a description, Jesus Fucking Christ. You know, like describing Sora as "a boy wearing clown shoes"? When people do that, they do not literally mean "Boy Wearing Clown Shoes" as an actual, special, term with additional meaning. Why the fuck am I explaining this basic concept of language to you?

But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway?

And?

So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none.

You're really milking that quote for all it's worth. Skewed to the darkness != Heartless.

However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless,

Despite being, I dunno, being an obvious reference to Vexen's manufacture of Replicas? And having no heart to be formed from?

and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.

Yes, which is why it disappears in a digital fade-out, is labeled as a "miscellaneous" enemy in guides, and is not mentioned again ever.

I think it's completely fair to take the name literally.

So you truly believe that the first Heartless were produced from the literal shadows of effectively dead people consigned to Hollow Bastion's basement? I should now just roll my eyes and stop this conversation with a dense brick wall, but I'm a sucker for punishment.

Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.

Name them. Beyond enemies that appear in the final battles. Enemy Gummi Ships don't count.

For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk

No, it didn't. You defeat it, it disappears and is never mentioned again. Furthermore, it arose from a reflection, not Roxas's shadow. What a Dusk disguised itself as was Vivi.

Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart,

Yes, using the heart as a vessel. Just like Emblems.

and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.

Again, Guardian is not a being unto itself. There is nothing that says Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn was produced from simple darkness.

"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves." —Ansem Report 4, made before Xehanort made Emblems.

Sora turned into a Shadow. The hearts that fell from Kingdom Hearts, when Ansem the Wise used his device on it, all turned into Shadows.

Once again, your literal misunderstanding of what the game is saying is making you wrong. All Heartless are the manifestation of the darkness in hearts, but they aren't independent of hearts.

Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

...Or he doesn't care to mention a minor enemy. Or is more aware and has more experience with the Heartless and therefore has more faith that the Heartless will manage Sora. Or you're just looking too deep into a throwaway line and taking it absolutely literally, which you always seem to have an issue with. Should I remind you of the time on Wikipedia that you absolutely insisted that Lexaeus's weapon was "Centurion"?

As for Ultimania, a story note (one of very few mentions) refers to Anti/Shadow Sora in "リクが差し向けたソラの影と戦う". "Sora's shadow". No mention of Heartless. No connection to the Heartless is ever made in any official source, which is what I've been saying the entire time. Oh, and "Guardian" is not mentioned. Ever. The closest phrase I bothered to translate is "Ansem's Shield". Everything is simply "Ansem attacks" and the like, regardless if "Guardian" is actually doing it. Kingdom Hearts fans making up something whole cloth based on specious evidence? Wouldn't be the first time! Plackers 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I reverted my individual replies to the above, because it's simply not worth it. If you really care to hear them, I can re-add them, but I doubt you will. At this point, I'm tired of dealing with your condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere. The one thing you've provided that actually serves as evidence, instead of just condescension, straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game, would be the Ultimania: please provide a scan of it's coverage for AntiSora (and Shadow Sora, if it is treated separately), preferably the Bestiary section coverage, though if you know of other coverage, that would be useful too. Also, please provide scans of how the bestiary treats a normal Heartless, and a Disney boss, for comparison. Otherwise, the currently available evidence points toward it being a Heartless.Glorious CHAOS! 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

"Condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior". As opposed to you? "Straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game". It must feel wonderful to assign your own faults to others, Mister "Sora's heart went to Kairi!" Also entertaining is your attempt to assign me the blame for this discussion going nowhere. It takes two to tango, baby! Plackers 07:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Would I be correct in assuming that you either won't or can't provide the scans, then? If all you are going to do is to deliver insults, then please go to a different wiki.Glorious CHAOS! 08:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Azul's Comments

Wow, this is a very long "argument". It's kinda hard to wrap my head around. I think I'll comment a bit. I have a feeling this discussion goes deeper than just arguing whether or not he's a heartless, but that's just my opinion.

The general appearance of heartless is a figure/being that has bright yellow eyes and is dark in color. The same characteristics of AntiSora. Also, like the Shadow heartless, it moves around the area by "swimming" around the floor. It's hard to identify this being, but I'm leaning on Heartless.

Sorry if I'm overlooking alot of things. I'll reply back once I've read the whole thing and have thought long and hard on what to say. My KH memory is a little foggy. -Azul ^{(talk ・contribs)} 01:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

AntiSora Vs Anti-Sora

Shouldn't the artile be named Anti-Sora since all the other Anti-forms have the "-"?--Xabryn 00:12, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

No, because the name is "AntiSora", according to the official Bradygames guides.Glorious CHAOS! 02:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

DDD

AntiSora or Sora's Heartless, what's the decision? It needs to go somewhere."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what exactly are we talking about here? Light

Roxas 20:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

AntiSora, Sora's Heartless was terminated in Re:c. When you said you were the fun one on the lane, who was your competition? The mailbox? - Erry 20:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Are we sure it's not a memory of Sora's Heartless, though? I mean, it's not like the Sora pickups are actually Sora either."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 22:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, Sora's Heartless didn't exist at the point of time where Sora and Riku went to to go into the worlds of sleep. When you said you were the fun one on the lane, who was your competition? The mailbox? - Erry 22:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Wait ignore that, I just realized we're talking about Sora's HEART. But I don't think it's Sora's Heartless, because the incarnation of Sora's Heartless that was in the form of AntiSora was in the Datascape, which means while it is possible that Sora's Heartless could take the form of AntiSora, but we haven't literally seen it yet besides the Datascape. So I think it should be on the AntiSora page as that is the only memory that the real-world Sora has of a Heartless taking a similar shape to Sora. When you said you were the fun one on the lane, who was your competition? The mailbox? - Erry 22:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

According to this, it's not AntiSora. Just a darker KH3D Sora with the face obscured. mag gosh 04:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

So, Sora page? It's like AVN without the armor?"We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 06:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesnt look anything like that in-game, when the Soras fly up at you they have the EXACT model of AntiSora, I just replayed the level to make sure.--124.169.108.144 06:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The Dive to the Heart image is all wrong, Riku is holding Soul Eater in it and some of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire.--Vanitas (talk) 06:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't notice the Soul Eater, but that's the only thing that isn't in the game but this is the Ultimania... When you said you were the fun one on the lane, who was your competition? The mailbox? - Erry 11:04, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Still I replayed the level and the Sora-enemies have the EXACT apperance of AntiSora, they have Yellow eyes and an overall Dark apperance, that may have just been a concept image in the Ultimania since Riku does not wield Soul Eater in that level and none of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire, they are all wearing KH1 attire in the actual game.--124.169.108.144 13:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"none of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire, they are all wearing KH1 attire in the actual game." Actually the Sora's wear KH1, KH2 and KH3D attire. When you said you were the fun one on the lane, who was your competition? The mailbox? - Erry 13:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Youre right, sorry, but the Sora-enemies are AntiSoras, they have Yellow eyes and the overall shadowy apperane of a pureblood Heartless.

http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:AntiSora2.PNG, here this image proves its an AntiSora.--Vanitas (talk) 09:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The picture you supplied have white eyes...also I'm sure they wield black Wooden Swords. mag gosh 12:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The pic s not that good, if you look at them in game, they have yellow eyes. Also to me it looked like they were using black Kingdom Keys, not wooden swords.--Vanitas (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

So, hey. Can we not go around being "blargadarg this terrible image clearly proves it.". Seriously we can sit on this one if we have to."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 00:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

How?

How did Riku just "create" an AntiSora Heartless? Heartless are created when a heart is consumed by darkness, so how does Riku just create one? --Elfdemon (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

That's Emblem Heartless. Pureblood Heartless are just generated from the darkness in a heart, so they will never go away until darkness itself is eliminated."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 02:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Why did Sora turn into a Shadow then? Also, I remember a scene in KH2 where the hearts of Emblem Heartless fell to the floor and became Pureblood Heartless. What was that about? --Elfdemon (talk) 02:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Sora is a special case.
The hearts fell, and then corridors of darkness opened and the Shadows emerged to feed on them. However, Days makes it clear that Emblems contain hearts and Purebloods do not."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 03:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Would that mean that when Scar turned into a Heartless, he was an Emblem Heartless even though he didn't have an Emblem on him? Also, wouldn't that make the Ghosts of Scar Pureblood Heartless because it says they are "created from the evil in Scar's heart"? Does evil=darkness? --Elfdemon (talk) 03:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Still don't think Scar was a Heartless. I've always been under the impression that Purebloods are created when someone submits to the Darkness in their heart while Emblems are created when someone's heart is stolen by Darkness. Sora stabbing himself with the Keyblade of heart released the (small amount of) Darkness in his heart and turned him into a lowly Pureblood Shadow. As for how Riku created the AntiSora? Not sure. Perhaps he remolded a powerful Pureblood like a Darkside or something. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I also thought too. Things get kind of complicated and confusing if that were to be the case though, such as the AntiSora situation. After I began thinking though, I don't think this is the case because when you destroy an Emblem Heartless the heart is visibly set free. If what you're saying is true and Purebloods are also created from hearts, then why don't we see the hearts being set free when we destroy them as well? When a Pureblood is destroyed, it is destroyed in just a puff of darkness and seem to be destroyed forever. So, in KH1, when Sora was a Shadow, if he were to be destroyed, then he would've been gone forever I'm pretty sure. Also, I just replayed Pride Lands, and Pete says that Scar became a Heartless. Another thing I wanted to mention is Shadow Globs. Those are Pureblood Heartless. I highly doubt that someone's heart could turn into a Shadow Glob, they seem to just be masses of darkness, and that's pretty much what other Pureblood Heartless are too. Just beings made up of pure darkness, which is why they're called Purebloods. But wait didn't Terra-Xehanort create a machine that artificially imitated the way to make someone's heart be consumed by darkness? This implies that people's hearts were consumed by darkness before he ever created Emblem Heartless which means that Purebloods are people's hearts that have been consumed by darkness? I'm so confused. --Elfdemon (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

A wise man once said: "You can't free a prisoner who locked himself up.". Like I said, when someone gives in to the Darkness in their heart, they become a Pureblood, it only makes sense that you can't free a heart that willingly chose this path. Then again, while I was scrolling down here, I noticed something further up on the page which says "[Nomura's] statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing". In the end though, it's really up to your interpretation of the whole thing. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, has it ever been explained why Sora is a special case and why he turned into a Pureblood instead of an Emblem? --Elfdemon (talk) 04:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not been explained. Sora and Scar are just special cases, like Ansem, and until we get a definite statement from the games, we can't say what types they are.

Purebloods are made of darkness, which grows in people's hearts. They are not made of the actual hearts. Basically, the darkness in someone's heart spawns Purebloods, which flock to the person. They are basically just like succubi, feeding off of hearts without making new Heartless.

Emblems are made from actual collapsed hearts, which are freed when the Emblem is defeated. They are like zombies, and Ansem's invention of the machine is what caused the Heartless plague (which, apparently, had already been defeated once in Chi, somehow)."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay. --Elfdemon (talk) 23:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Wait no this is all wrong.
Pureblood Heartless are the darkness from someone's heart animated. When someone's heart is broken or unlocked, the darkness from within the heart comes out and turns into a Pureblood Heartless. Pureblood Heartless can also be created from a part of the darkness of someone's heart. For example, Riku made some of the darkness within his heart come out of his heart and it formed into AntiSora.
Emblem Heartless are created when someone's heart falls into darkness, whether it be intentional or forcefully. Emblem Heartless are hearts basically trapped inside of a shell of darkness. You can make your heart fall into darkness intentionally by allowing the darkness within your heart come out and take over your heart. The darkness wraps around your heart and you then become an Emblem Heartless. Your heart can forcefully fall into darkness by other Heartless or a strong amount of darkness taking over your heart. The darkness wraps around your heart and you then become an Emblem Heartless.
The difference between Purebloods and Emblems are pretty clear. Purebloods are the darkness from within a heart animated and "alive". Emblems are the actual heart itself consumed by darkness.
When Sora unlocked his heart with the Keyblade of heart, the darkness from within his heart came out and became a Shadow Heartless. His heart took refuge inside of Kairi. Unlike most Purebloods though, Sora's Heartless was aware of himself, which happened for unknown reasons; Sora is just special. When Kairi hugged Sora's Heartless, Sora's heart came out of Kairi and merged back with his darkness (Sora's Heartless) which made him whole again. (Not completely whole though, because his body, Roxas, still wasn't a part of him yet.)
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is an Emblem Heartless. This is how Ansem, Seeker of Darkness came to be: Terra-Xehanort extracted his heart from his body. Unlocking a heart and extracting it are different. Unlocking the heart unlocks the darkness within it which turns into a Pureblood Heartless. Extracting the heart simply removes the heart from the body while keeping it completely intact, not losing any darkness. Terra-Xehanort did this and his heart put on a brown robe and was known as Ansem, Seeker of Darkness while Terra-Xehanort's body was left behind which formed into Xemnas. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness then took host of Riku so that he would be able to wield a Keyblade. In KH1, on the destroyed Destiny Islands, when you confront Riku controlled by Ansem Seeker of Darkness, he then willingly falls into darkness which turns him into an Emblem Heartless, which is the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness we all know and love.
It is completely unknown whether Scar's Heartless is a Pureblood or Emblem. Pete saying "Anger and Jealousy turned the king of Pride Rock into a Heartless" is not much to go off of. Two things could've happened: The first thing is Scar's heart broke when Simba pushed him off that cliff and the darkness from his heart quickly came out and became a Pureblood Heartless and jumped back up to fight. The second thing that could've happened is that Scar could've willingly fell into the darkness in his heart, which would turn him into an Emblem Heartless, even though he does not have an Emblem on him. So yeah, there isn't much to go on so it is completely unknown whether he was Pureblood or Emblem. As for the Ghosts of Scar, the mystery behind those is even more unknown.
So yeah, that's the difference between Pureblood Heartless and Emblem Heartless and how each of them are created. --Elfdemon (talk) 06:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Do have any evidence or proof to support any of this? Or are you stating your interpretation of things? Either way, I was always under the impression that Ansem's robe WAS his body as a Heartless, not an actual piece of clothing. And I still don't think Scar was ever a Heartless. As I've said, Pete is not a reliable source. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The only evidence I really have is from an Ansem Report. The Ansem Report states "They are born from those who've lost their hearts...". In my opinion, I think that my interpretation leaves the least plot holes and makes the most sense. Saying that "Heartless are simply just beings of darkness and made from darkness" doesn't quite add up because of Sora turning into a Shadow. Yeah, I get that he's special, but I don't see how that could ever explain him turning into a Shadow. Also, I don't buy that Kairi was just able to return Sora because of her "Princess of Heart powers". The exact same thing happened to Eraqus. His heart broke and Terra went over to embrace him and he seemingly disappeared, but his heart was able to take refuge inside of Terra. The same thing happened to Sora: Kairi ran over to embrace Sora after he unlocked his heart, he seemingly disappeared, then I think his heart then took refuge inside of Kairi. And saying that "Purebloods are created when someone willingly falls into darkness and Emblems are created when someone forcefully falls into darkness" doesn't quite add up as well, because of the AntiSora situation. My theory also greatly clears up the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness situation as well. It pretty much clears it all up. Is it fact? No. None of what any of us think about this is fact really. But until we get more information on this from future games, interviews, etc and until Nomura straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created or until a KH game straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created, it's all interpretation and minor things to go off of like very vague comments from Ansem, Terra-Xehanort, etc. Also yeah, Pete might not be the best source for information, especially since many villains in the KH series purposefully try to steer us in the wrong direction and give us false information. I definitely think it's completely possible that Scar was a Heartless, but yeah, it's also very possible that Pete was lying and Scar just simply gained the ability to control darkness, like most of the other villains. --Elfdemon (talk) 19:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The Ansem's Reports, in canon, are full of lies. We can't take them as Word of God unless their claims are verified elsewhere in the series. That being said, the Secret Ansem's Report (where they started the retcons) definitely say Sora regained his human form from Kairi's heart, specifically not his own. We see multiple Pureblood Heartless created from one person before their hearts are spilled -- the Darkside in the Dive to the Heart was Sora's, after all, as implicitly are the other Heartless that appear. Additionally, the way it's described in some sources, a Heartless is born when someone with darkness in their heart has it separated from their body and soul, with the Heartless being a side effect of the process, and may not necessarily be the heart itself -- although the process of retrieving the heart is the same as defeating the Heartless, and the stolen heart appears from the Heartless's remains, making it a pretty meaningless distinction. Perhaps we could say that when the heart is stolen, it disappears from the realm of light and an emblem heartless takes its place. Then again, the KH3D glossary explicitly retcons canon, claiming Heartless have no hierarchy when the plot of both KH and KH2 specifically relied on saying they do (though it may have been misworded, and simply meant they aren't organized in the way the Organization is, as a strict, rational coorporation). For what it's worth, it claims that "chaotic Purebloods arise spontaneously" (i.e., they are simply living embodiments of the darkness in hearts), while "Emblems are created artificially by Ansem" -- meaning that his machine facilitates whatever process allows Emblem Heartless to steal hearts and create new Emblems from them. Furthermore, it's a huge plot point that Xehanort's Heartless is sharing bodyspace with Riku's heart -- that Heartless has to be, functionally, equivalent to a heart...

...here's what has to be true, basically:

Heartless act like a person who has no heart (although so do Nobodies, allegedly).
Emblem Heartless release hearts when slain, which can be retrieved into the artificial Kingdom Hearts if done by the Keyblade
Emblem Heartless are created when hearts succumb to darkness (not necessarily through being stolen by another Emblem -- see the Necromancers in The Land of Dragons), in a process somehow catalyzed by Ansem's experiment -- EXCEPT IN SORA'S CASE. If a heart is stolen but contains no darkness, it does not produce a Heartless.
Sora's case is backwards and frontwards an anomaly, as he is also the only one ever to regain human form without destroying his Nobody, "due to his bonds to others". We can't really take any information from his case besides the pointer to not make blanket statements about how heartloss works, and the need for citations.
Xemnas in KH3D (the newest canon) talks about the hearts and bodies of the organiation being separated into "Heartless" and "Nobodies".
Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart.

It's really damn similar to demons in Xanth, honestly. Demons in Xanth only have souls, and that soul is so busy trying to do the job of the other missing components, that it can't do its real job to snuff, so the demon acts soulless. The Heartless have hearts working overtime to give them the physicality of a body, so they lack emotion or love. The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes), so they're not always completely "there", and fade away when they die. Something that is missing an important piece of itself becomes obsessed with that piece, and forgets to treasure what it already has."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 21:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think that my interpretation leaves the least plot holes and makes the most sense.'

I think the same about my interpretation. Also I find yours to be too confusing.

Yeah, I get that he's special, but I don't see how that could ever explain him turning into a Shadow.

Except that Sora's only special because he's not special. Master Xehanort called him a "dull, ordinary boy".

Also, I don't buy that Kairi was just able to return Sora because of her "Princess of Heart powers".

Same here. I think that it was the special bond that they share that allowed Sora to become human again. Then again, it could have because of Sora. Ansem the Wise did say "Sora was the only one able to return to his human form without destroying his Nobody. That is a statement to the love in his heart for other people.".

The exact same thing happened to Eraqus. His heart broke and Terra went over to embrace him and he seemingly disappeared, but his heart was able to take refuge inside of Terra.

No. Eraqus died. Literally, died. But as one's heart is immortal, Eraqus was able to seek refuge in Terra.

The same thing happened to Sora: Kairi ran over to embrace Sora after he unlocked his heart, he seemingly disappeared, then I think his heart then took refuge inside of Kairi.

No, Kairi ran over to catch Sora who was falling. He didn't "seemingly disappear", he actually disappeared. If he had, what would that accomplish for him? They'd just be back to square one.

And saying that "Purebloods are created when someone willingly falls into darkness and Emblems are created when someone forcefully falls into darkness" doesn't quite add up as well, because of the AntiSora situation.

I agree. But I'm stickin' with it.

My theory also greatly clears up the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness situation as well. It pretty much clears it all up.

Makes things cloudier for me.

Is it fact? No. None of what any of us think about this is fact really.

True.

But until we get more information on this from future games, interviews, etc and until Nomura straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created or until a KH game straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created, it's all interpretation and minor things to go off of like very vague comments from Ansem, Terra-Xehanort, etc.

A statement from Nomura(somewhere) treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, remember? I mentioned this earlier.

Also yeah, Pete might not be the best source for information, especially since many villains in the KH series purposefully try to steer us in the wrong direction and give us false information.

Also he's not too bright.

I definitely think it's completely possible that Scar was a Heartless, but yeah, it's also very possible that Pete was lying and Scar just simply gained the ability to control darkness, like most of the other villains.

Or Pete was just wrong. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The Ansem's Reports, in canon, are full of lies.

What makes you say that?

That being said, the Secret Ansem's Report (where they started the retcons) definitely say Sora regained his human form from Kairi's heart, specifically not his own.

I really hate that word. Though Ansem the Wise said otherwise(heh) in KH3D.

We see multiple Pureblood Heartless created from one person before their hearts are spilled -- the Darkside in the Dive to the Heart was Sora's, after all, as implicitly are the other Heartless that appear.

The Dive to the Heart is a strange space. Sora had never left his island before his first Dive yet his pillars depict the Princessess and people who knew them.

Additionally, the way it's described in some sources, a Heartless is born when someone with darkness in their heart has it separated from their body and soul, with the Heartless being a side effect of the process, and may not necessarily be the heart itself -- although the process of retrieving the heart is the same as defeating the Heartless, and the stolen heart appears from the Heartless's remains, making it a pretty meaningless distinction.

Never heard that before, so I can't argue.

(not necessarily through being stolen by another Emblem -- see the Necromancers in The Land of Dragons)

Those were Nightwalkers. Necromancers are the Cavern of Remembrance versions of the Shaman Heartless

Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart.

How does that "have to be true" as you call it?

The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes)

Nobodies being able to grow hearts of their has been hinted from the very beginning, KH3D just confirmed it. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, just to make sure I'm clear on this, Purebloods are simply a manifestation of darkness that can be created from darkness itself or the darkness from someone's heart? They are the byproduct of a strong amount of darkness whether it be of the heart or just in general? They can be created from simply someone's strong amount of darkness, like with AntiSora, or they can be created when someone's darkness leaves their body? When that darkness leaves the body, it becomes a Pureblood? Emblems were originally created by Terra-Xehanort's machine, but afterwards, any heart that is consumed by darkness turns into an Emblem? So, was I right about some of what I said about Purebloods being the darkness in people's hearts animated and that Sora's Heartless was the darkness inside Sora's heart that came out when his heart left? Where did his heart go if this is the case? Where do hearts go when they are broken, unlocked, or leave the body? Okay, now I have a few questions. First, before Terra-Xehanort created that machine, what happened to hearts that were consumed by darkness? How did him making that machine all of a sudden trigger it to be that when a heart falls to darkness, it becomes an Emblem? Next, is how come when Terra-Xehanort unlocked his heart in BBS his guardian melted and he fell into the Realm of Darkness? He unlocked his heart which made him get consumed by darkness. Shouldn't that have created a Heartless and a Nobody and his heart being consumed or whatever? Why didn't this happen to him and instead he fell into the Realm of Darkness? Why didn't he create a Heartless like other people would've? Next, is wouldn't it be possible for someone to have a Pureblood Heartless and an Emblem Heartless? If a Pureblood is the darkness from someone's heart and an Emblem is the actual heart itself being consumed, then couldn't someone have multiple Heartless? If so, would you have to defeat them both to re-create the original person? Why does killing a Pureblood make the person return when a Pureblood is just darkness? If you kill someone's Emblem Heartless and their Nobody, but not their Pureblood, does that re-create the person except without any darkness in their heart? Why did the Pureblood Heartless originally go to the Realm of Darkness? Their goal is to consume hearts and there's obviously like no hearts in the Realm of Darkness, so why aren't they out there in the Realm of Light consuming hearts? I know Sora and Mickey sealed the Door to Darkness so no more Pureblood Heartless can get out, but why did the Pureblood Heartless go there in the first place? Pureblood Heartless obviously aren't born in the Realm of Darkness, as seen with Sora's Heartless and AntiSora. Since Pureblood Heartless are the darkness of someone's heart, then why isn't Vanitas considered to be a Pureblood Heartless because he's literally the darkness of Ven's heart extracted? Do we know for sure if Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is Pureblood or Emblem? If not, then what are your thoughts on it? Also, what are your thoughts on whether Scar is Pureblood or Emblem? Sorry, I'm just very confused on this topic because over the past month, many people across the internet have been telling me different things, so I've been left extremely confused. Could you tell me exactly what things are known about this and are canon and what things are false and unanswered? It really seems that a majority of KH fans are confused about this topic, which is very odd considering Heartless are the main enemy type in the series and have been there since the first game. --Elfdemon (talk) 22:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Ansem the Wise in KH2, as DiZ, said that they falsely bore his name. There are also events within like a report attributed in KH2 to Xehanort claiming that Mickey met with the author, when Mickey met with Ansem instead, and the events of that meeting are misreported. So, at the very least, anything about current events is unreliable, and considering Ansem is proven wrong about the darkness of Kingdom Hearts at the end, we can't take him as word of god on metaphysics, either.

Remember, just because Xehanort is patronizing to all the other characters, that doesn't mean he's right. For all his bluster, for all his scary, intimidating plans, he still keeps losing because he does make mistakes.

You may hate the word "retcon", doesn't mean that isn't what it is. Half of what we're told in KH2 makes the events of KH1 make no gotdamn sense. For example, the idea that there are more than one Keyblade for each realm, which also erases a lot of the drama behind Sora and Riku's struggle over it. Fundamentally, the idea that Ansem is not Ansem, which literally every character including the natives of Hollow Bastion believed. Etc.

What makes Sora so special, what Xehanort doesn't consider meaningful, is how his heart can care for others. And his heart, which let in Ventus's broken heart, is thus connected to the princesses. BbS actually explains why the princesses showed up in the Dive to the Heart, and it's still presented as canon, unlike some of the other Dives which are merely for selecting your character.

That Purebloods can be summoned without the heart being lost has to be true because we see it happen. Riku specifically brags about his ability to create the AntiSora, and we see the Darkside generated from Sora, as well as (according to Zexion) the Darkside generated from Riku.

That Nomura can't resist the temptation to make the characters generate drama even while trying to get credibility for claiming they are emotionless is obvious, but yeah, he can claim he foreshadowed that one. There is literally no part of the franchise, except for Xion's first few days in the organization, where any of his supposedly heartless Nobodies (including the Replicas) act like they don't have hearts.

All darkness is the darkness in people's hearts. It isn't a separate font -- the darkness in the realm of darkness exists because there is darkness in people's hearts, and always will exist until every character becomes a purity pure heart of light pureness. Purebloods are born from that darkness, which always traces its origin to somebody's heart, but that person doesn't need to have broken into pieces.

If you're confused about sources, I would recommend searching the scripts, ultimania transcripts, and interviews for information on hearts and heartless like I've been doing. In fact, if you wanted to start adding citations to Heartless and Heart, that would be incredibly appreciated. The whole thing's a bit of a mess because the writers will make one type of half-answer claim in Word of God interviews or ultimanias, show something very conflicting in the game itself, and have all the in-canon authorities claiming something completely different, so it's all very wishywashy. Honestly, I would appreciate if they stopped retconning stuff all the time."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 01:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I guess it all just simply comes down to the fact that we'll have to wait for 2.8, KH3, and future games to come out to really know the answers to these things for sure. I imagine that series like KH are incredibly difficult and frustrating to make/run a wiki for because of how convoluted it is and you don't know exactly what is fact and what is not. It annoys me when I see people on forums, reddit, etc who think that they know the definite answers to things like this are and spread false information which makes everyone even more confused and there's not much you can do about it until you have solid proof about something. But whatevs. I'm sure I'll come back to this page or wherever on this wiki to discuss this topic again once a new game comes out and we get some proof of something or answers to unanswered questions. Also, I actually began reading every single KH interview the other day and if I come across anything that I think could be added as a citation, I'll make sure to do so. --Elfdemon (talk) 02:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry to bring this topic back up again for the thousandth time, but I read the Secret Ansem Reports about a dozen times, and I'm pretty certain that I have a complete understanding of everything now. Everything is completely explained in the Secret Ansem Reports. Here's everything explained (with proof):

Pureblood Heartless definitely do not have hearts. ("Those beings who lack hearts—the Heartless—must be the key.") ("Cursed shadows who not only lack hearts")
Pureblood Heartless are the darkness of people's hearts. They are not the heart itself. ("The darkness of the heart, made flesh.") ("When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born")
When someone becomes a Heartless, their heart disappears and fades away into darkness. ("A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.")
Emblem Heartless were originally created by a machine that Terra-Xehanort created. ("Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well. These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."")
Emblem Heartless can also be created by other Emblem Heartless stealing their heart. This is why the man in Traverse Town turned into a Soldier. ("the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.")
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is a Heartless. ("As I had suspected, Xehanort had become a Heartless.")
It is unknown whether Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is Pureblood or Emblem because it is unknown how he was created. It is unknown if Terra-Xehanort's heart left his body and faded into darkness by him unlocking it or if he used his machine/gotten another Emblem Heartless to turn himself a Heartless. If he unlocked his heart, then he would've became a Pureblood, if he used his machine/gotten an Emblem Heartless to consume him, then he would've turned into an Emblem. He most likely turned himself into a Heartless using the machine. I think this because of what Young Xehanort says in DDD. He says "that is Xehanort, reduced to just a heart." Emblem Heartless are hearts that have been synthesized into Heartless. ("to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.") Pureblood Heartless are not hearts, that's why they were originally called "Heartless." So, he is most likely an Emblem. I do not believe that the Robed Figure was actually simply Xehanort's heart because of what Ansem the Wise says in the Secret Ansem Reports about hearts falling and fading into darkness when they leave the body and it has never been said anywhere that a heart is a Heartless. Hearts and Heartless are two completely different things, so what would be the purpose of them being called different things if they were the same thing. Many people say that when a heart leaves the body, it is a Heartless, which is simply not true.

Another thing I wanted to note is that no Emblem Heartless ever existed before Terra-Xehanort created them. This also proves the fact that Emblem Heartless can only be created when another Emblem Heartless turns them into one (and can be created by the machine of course). So saying that Emblem Heartless are created when someone's heart is forcefully consumed by darkness is true. It is true because, from what we've seen so far, the only things that can forcefully consume someone's heart with darkness is Emblem Heartless. No one else can do that. Pureblood Heartless just simply devour hearts, which means they're gone forever, just like when a heart leaves the body. When an Emblem Heartless is killed, then they fade away forever as well (so do Purebloods). But when an Emblem Heartless is killed by a Keyblade, then the heart is released and goes out to return to its body, but if its body never became a Nobody, then the heart is doomed to either fade away to darkness or be devoured by Purebloods, which is essentially the same thing. When a Pureblood is destroyed, like I said, it is gone forever. Terra-Xehanort, along with his apprentices, used their machine to turn themselves into Emblem Heartless (presumably). This is why they were able to come back as complete beings when their Heartless and Nobodies were destroyed. This is not possible with a Pureblood, because they do not have the heart inside of them. We have never seen anyone become a complete person after their Pureblood is destroyed, so we have no reason to believe that it's possible to happen. The only case we've seen that happen is with Sora. The only reason that this happened to Sora is because of Kairi. Kairi used her heart to restore Sora's heart. ("Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.")

So, in the KH universe, when your heart leaves your body, it fades away (unless it finds another body to take refuge in). And when the heart leaves the body, the darkness within the heart comes out and turns into a Pureblood Heartless. When this Pureblood Heartless is destroyed, then it's destroyed forever. Also, when the heart leaves the body, the body and soul fade away as well. If you had a strong enough heart before it left your body however, your soul will continue living on inside your body and your body will live on, this is called a Nobody. The stronger your heart is, the more and more your Nobody looks like you. When a Nobody is destroyed, they're gone forever (unless you became an Emblem Heartless instead of a Pureblood. If you became an Emblem and the Emblem is destroyed as well, then you will become a complete person again). Nobodies can also grow their own hearts and become complete people again that way. It is currently unexplained what happens if they have a corresponding Emblem Heartless instead of Pureblood and it's destroyed. Maybe the heart returns to that person and they get two hearts, maybe it returns and merges together with the heart they grew, or maybe it notices that the body doesn't need a heart any longer and it just fades away into darkness or gets devoured by Purebloods.

As for AntiSora, then yeah, they're just the darkness from Riku's heart animated. As for Scar, it's still unknown if he became a Heartless or not and it's up for debate. Pete said "Anger and jealously" is what turned him into a Heartless, which cannot happen, so it's completely possible that Pete could have been false about the rest of that statement. What could've also happened though is that when Simba pushed him off the cliff, Scar "died", and his heart left his body and faded away and a Heartless was quickly created and he quickly jumped back on the ledge to fight. One could say that only a Heartless could be able to jump that high, but it has been seen with people such as Xehanort, that people with strong darkness begin to get superhuman and Heartless-like abilities. This is also a reason to believe Scar didn't turn into a Heartless as well though. He could've just gotten strong with the darkness and gained superhuman abilities like Xehanort and many of the other villains. But yeah, it doesn't say in the Journal anything about Scar being a Heartless, so the answer to this is completely unknown.

Sorry again for bringing this topic back up and sorry for the large amount of text. --Elfdemon (talk) 03:56, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention something. What happens when someone chooses to be consumed by the darkness in their heart? Well, they get consumed by it and fall into the Realm of Darkness. This is seen with Riku in KH1 and Terra-Xehanort in BBS. Riku got consumed by the darkness in his heart on Destiny Islands. Terra-Xehanort got consumed by the darkness in his heart when he unlocked his heart with his Keyblade. Huh, I guess this also answers a question I've had for a while. That question was "What's the difference between stabbing yourself in the heart with the Keyblade of Heart and any old Keyblade?". I guess the answer is that stabbing yourself in the heart with any Keyblade makes you be consumed by the darkness, which takes you into the Realm of Darkness, and stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of Heart makes your heart fade away to darkness and then the darkness in your heart becomes a Heartless. When you "die" from being attacked, hit, stabbed, or anything along those lines, your heart leaves your body and the darkness turns into a Pureblood Heartless. This is seen when Xehanort attacks Eraqus with some sort of dark magic blast. This is also seen when Sora destroys all the Disney Villains. Their bodies fade away. Eraqus' heart getting released when he "dies" proves that all of these villains who died's hearts left their bodies and they became Heartless. So basically, stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of Heart basically acts as if you're "killing yourself", like you would with any other weapon, while stabbing yourself with a regular Keyblade makes you fall into the Realm of Darkness, like I said. --Elfdemon (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

That is not completely correct. Neither the man who became a Soldier, nor the soldiers who became Nightwalkers, are shown having their hearts stolen by Heartless. They are simply shown succumbing to darkness, though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town appears to be running from something unseen. Furthermore, the fact that Xehanort's Heartless (brown cloak man) is repeatedly confirmed to be a Heartless by the Ultimania and Nomura, and is confirmed by the central plot gimmick of KH3D to be a heart, in addition to previous mentions of Xehanort's heartless residing in Riku's heart, demonstrates that Heartless are synonymous with hearts.

Saix says "Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those hearts." He says that the Heartless are holding the hearts that the Keyblade releases, and that it is when the Keyblade releases those hearts that they gather in darkness, to form Kingdom Hearts. If the hearts had already faded into darkness when the Heartless took them, the Organization wouldn't need Sora to slay them. Also, multiple times the characters talk about people being "turned into" or "transformed" into Heartless, and in KH2, talk about how that would also produce a Nobody. We are very clearly, explicitly told that the Nobody is formed from the body and soul -- so what part is left to "turn into" the Heartless? The heart. The Secret Ansem's Report says "A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks," indicating that it is the heart that is used to create new Heartless, not just the theft. According to Yen Sid, Xehanort's Heartless "seized" his heart, so I suppose we could say that the Heartless is a shell of darkness around the "captured" heart, and we have as many sources saying the Heartless "stole" the heart as we do sources saying that the Heartless is an "existence of just the heart", so for our purposes the two are equivalent. The heart is definitely "present" if a Heartless is there, so at best it's differentiating the egg from the yolk that is always inside of it as long as it continues to be an egg.

Next, Xemnas says "A heart is never lost for good," and the mythology behind Kingdom Hearts is that it is where all hearts go when they are set adrift, so we definitely can't say that any have been destroyed "for good" unless we're told so.

According to the plot mysteries, there's no real difference between stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of heart or using another Keyblade -- Sora had to use the Keyblade of heart because he is not a being of darkness, and stealing a heart requires the power of darkness. If Riku-Ansem still had Sora's Keyblade, he could have achieved the same effect. ("Beings of darkness can draw out the darkness in the heart, so Master Xehanort could summon the Neoshadows with his own hands.")

Ansem's reports do not demonstrate that they have been dissected and shown to lack hearts -- they demonstrate that they behave as if they do not have hearts, which makes sense if they are incomplete beings.

In addition, KHX is set before the machine appeared, and is chock full of Emblem Heartless. Whether that is due to them time traveling from the future, or Ansem's machine was simply recreating the effects of what happened before the Keyblade War, it is demonstrably false to claim that they did not exist before the machine.

Finally, Xaldin was attempting to turn Beast into a Heartless, and his method of doing so was to cause Beast to succumb to anger and rage, just as Pete said Scar succumbed to. Most of the villains, having succumbed to darkness, could be said to be in the stages of becoming a Heartless, but we are not told that the transformation is definitely underway except in Scar's case. I suppose you could argue that Scar has not completed the process, and thus is not truly a Heartless, but we'd need Nomura or the Ultimania to confirm that."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 05:15, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

"but if its body never became a Nobody, then the heart is doomed to either fade away to darkness or be devoured by Purebloods, which is essentially the same thing.". No. The man from Traverse Town was shown to have been recompleted at the end of KH1 during the credits roll. Basically, while every Nobody has a corresponding Heartless, not every Heartless has a corresponding Nobody. As a side note, this is how Ienzo in KH3D knows so much about recompletion. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that that was just a re-use of character models. In Traverse Town after that man dies, we see a completely identical man again later and they even make a little joke about it. He mentions that we must be mistaken or something like that. It was just a re-use of character model and I'm assuming the after credits was as well. I always assumed that when you "die" (heart leaves the body), your body and soul fades while what's left of you turns into a Heartless. And if you had a strong enough heart, then your soul will continue living on in your body, making your body live on. And once both that body (your Nobody), and your Heartless get destroyed, then you become complete again. I'm pretty certain that you need both your Heartless and Nobody to be destroyed for you to return, and if you don't have a Nobody, like most people, then you're dead for good. If this wasn't true, then everyone in the KH universe would be completely eternal aside from dying of old age. So, I'm pretty sure it's false to say that someone without a Nobody can be completed if just their Heartless is destroyed. It wouldn't make sense scientifically either since in the KH universe, when your heart leaves your body, your body and soul fades away. If that man's body and soul faded away, then how would it be possible for him to return if only his Heartless was destroyed? I could be wrong though --Elfdemon (talk) 06:15, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

You are wrong. The body and soul don't fade away forever, they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed. Just like how the destroyed worlds disappeared into darkness but were brought back after Ansem was defeated. Also, why would they bother showing that NPC during the credits other than to show that he's back to normal? Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 19:51, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

They were simply just showing the man from Traverse Town. Not the one that got turned into a Heartless. They were showing the one that they re-used a character model for. "they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed." This has never been said in KH at all, so we have no reason to believe that that is how things work. All we know is that someone returns a complete person after both their Heartless and Nobodies are destroyed. It has never been said anywhere that they return just by their Heartless being destroyed. --Elfdemon (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Why would they show him? Wouldn't it make more sense to show the man who returned to being human? He was in the Second District, after all. Ienzo in KH3D: "When someone whose lost their heart is recompleted, they should return to the place where it happened.". Nobody involved or not. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 03:17, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

The man who took over for Cid in the Accessory Shop is not the same man who became a Soldier Heartless in the Second District, they just happen to be completely identical. Like I said, it's most likely just a re-use of a character model and when you talk to him in the Accessory Shop for the first time, he even mentions that you have him mistaken for someone else, which proves that it is simply a different person. Also, I just watched the credits for KH1, and that man was no where to be seen in the credits. --Elfdemon (talk) 06:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Death does not happen until the soul leaves the body. That's been in the canon since the beginning. Merely being turned into a Heartless doesn't kill you, and every game has talked about returning the people and worlds whose hearts were lost to darkness. We don't need to be told that you don't have to have a Nobody, because we were told you could return them even before we learned that Nobodies existed. A Nobody's body and soul fade into darkness just like the body and soul do if they weren't strong enough to form a Nobody in the first place -- that's where they wait for the heart to rejoin them. Nomura was very emphatic that the Heartless/Nobody process wasn't supposed to be an analogue to death, whose mechanics he preferred to not treat as a major plot point (the source of the inaccurate fanon that death doesn't exist in the KH universe)."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Makes sense. I still think it's likely that the man in the Accessory Shop was not the same man who became a Soldier because of what he says when you first talk to him. I guess it's also possible though that he is the same guy and he just lost his memories of when he was a Soldier, which is extremely likely now that I think about it. Yeah, that's probably what happened. We'll never know for certain though unless Nomura brings it up in an interview which isn't likely at all since that Traverse Town man is not relevant at all. --Elfdemon (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I know all of that. When did I ever imply that I didn't. He wasn't?! Seriously? But I remember seeing him... Guess I'll have to play through the game again to find proof of my claim. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that man isn't in the credits at all. You can just look it up on YouTube or something, you don't have to play through the game again lol, but yeah, you're probably right that it's the same guy who became a Soldier. He most likely just forgot about his time as a Soldier. --Elfdemon (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I never said they were the same guy!! When did you get the impression that I did?! I may not always have the best memory when it comes to A LOT of things, but this time I'm sure of what I remember. I'll play through the game, and KHII, to find the guy being recompleted. If he's not in the credits of 1, then he's either somewhere else in the game, or in the credits of II. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I thought that's what you were saying. Anyways, that's what I think now though. I think they were most likely the same guy. --Elfdemon (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Eh, it's alright. It was just kind of annoying. To each their own. We've both got things we see differently on. Like I always say: It's all a matter of perspective. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 01:58, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

"though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town appears to be running from something unseen.". I always thought that was kinda obvious considering that I got it right away when I first saw it. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I guess I've just been searching for answers for the unexplained and fillings for plot holes, when there simply isn't any. At least not yet. --Elfdemon (talk) 06:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

No, the stuff you added was all very, very useful. We should add it to the article, we just want to make sure we check for when other parts of the canon contradict what was said."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 16:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, awesome. I edited the Heartless, Nobody, and Heart pages. I added some stuff and removed some false stuff. Let me know if anything I changed is incorrect. --Elfdemon (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I've corrected some stuff that you misunderstood, and would also like to ask that every claim that is added has a citation. These pages badly need them."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

On a side note from all of this, I wanted to ask a question. Has there ever been a time where we've seen a heart being stolen, other than the time in Traverse Town? If so could I have some examples? I was thinking about this because on the Heartless page, it says "Once that machine was activated, most stolen hearts become Emblems, provided they contain darkness." The part of this sentence that I'm concerned about is the "Once that machine was activated" part, because if we've never seen a heart being stolen before the machine was activated, then who's to say that stolen hearts becoming Emblems was just a thing that began after the machine was activated? I think this sentence should simply say "Stolen hearts become Emblems as well, provided they contain darkness." since we don't know if, why, or how the machine started it. The two ways to create an Emblem is with the machine and a heart being stolen. Since this is the case, then what would happen if someone stole someone's heart before the machine was created? It would create an Emblem, right?, it just probably wouldn't have the Emblem logo on it. The reason why I'm asking if we've ever seen someone's heart being stolen other than the man in Traverse Town is because I believe that Emblems are the only things that can steal hearts. I'm pretty sure that we've never seen anyone else steal a heart before. It says in the Secret Ansem Reports that Emblems steal hearts and use them to increase their ranks. It never says that any other person like a being of darkness or something, such as Maleficent or Xehanort can do this, so I'm pretty sure that Emblems are the only beings that have the ability to steal hearts because they do so to increase their ranks. Purebloods consume hearts which turns them into more Purebloods, right? Or do the hearts they consume just fade into darkness? Anyways, that's off-topic. So yeah, have we ever seen anyone other than Emblems steal hearts and turn them into other Emblems? (other than Terra-Xehanort's machine of course). --Elfdemon (talk) 06:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The only definition of Emblem Heartless that I know of, in regards to creating them, is that they are artificial Heartless that were invented by Ansem's apprentices, and that they created a machine to make them. Now, they appear in KHX anyway, but that could just be time travel using the Book of Prophecies. In any case, we see people becoming Emblem Heartless with absolutely no Heartless or machine nearby - most notably, the Nightwalkers in The Land of Dragons. We cannot claim that the heart has to be stolen by an Emblem, because we have proof positive that you can become an Emblem even if you lose your heart a different way. In fact, the time in Traverse Town doesn't even depict what kind of Heartless the guy was running from. As far as the machine is concerned, we have no reason to believe that the person has to be literally hooked up to the machine -- the same person also somehow invented a technique so that any Emblem slain by a Keyblade, no matter the world, was sent to his personal, artificial Kingdom Hearts. It's very, very easy to believe that the machine makes it so that any stolen/lost heart, no matter the world, becomes an Emblem Heartless, so there's no reason to believe "the machine" is a separate method from "hearts being stolen".

As for who can steal hearts, the Ansem Reports, KHII, and Days are all pretty clear that all Heartless steal hearts. The difference just appears to be whether they are simply siphoned darkness (and so empty on the inside), or that same darkness covering a stolen heart (and so release a heart when destroyed). Honestly, I'd wager that the reason Sora became a Shadow was because his heart went into Kairi, and was not actually inside the Shadow as we played it."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 17:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, yeah you're right. Knowing Kingdom Hearts and the things that have happened before, it's not so hard to believe that a machine could affect all hearts like that. --Elfdemon (talk) 22:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I thought of an explanation to the man in Traverse Town and the soldiers in Land of Dragons turning into Emblem Heartless. There's no proof to it, it's just something I thought of. I believe that hearts consumed by the darkness within your heart or consumed by other Purebloods, become Purebloods, and I believe that hearts created by the machine and hearts consumed by other Emblems, become Emblems. Here's my explanation to why those people we saw became Emblems: I believe that people become Emblems when another Emblem is the catalyst of their heart being consumed by darkness. For example, those soldiers in the Land of Dragons. I think that they were attacked by Emblem Heartless, which added to the darkness in their heart, which made darkness consume their heart. I think that when you're attacked by a Heartless, darkness from the Heartless gets into your heart and can affect it and if that Heartless' darkness completely consumes your heart, you become a Heartless. So, this means that those soldiers in the Land of Dragons were previously fighting some Emblem Heartless, and by doing so, darkness go into their hearts and was slowly eating away at them, and then they eventually turned into Emblem Heartless. This same thing could be applied to the man in Traverse Town who was seen turning into a Soldier Heartless. But yeah, there's no proof for this claim, but what do you think? --Elfdemon (talk) 04:15, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

In all honesty, like some of your other thoeries, I think it's sub-par. Though I suppose that to the eyes of others, the same is true for my thoeries. Ah well, don't let my opinion offend or deter you, keep it up! Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:26, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

It's plausible, but we can't make that claim on the article because we simply don't know whether those soldiers were even attacked by Heartless, much less which kind they were. Hell, Scar wasn't attacked by any Heartless at all, and his darkness revived as ghosts and eventually became an Emblem. A long-dead dragon was revived by Xigbar and became an Emblem, too. Honestly, the only Pureblood that we see definitely created from a person once the machine was active is Sora, and he was using the Keyblade of heart that Riku-Ansem specifically said would draw out his darkness. We badly need to rewrite the Heartless and Heart articles to only make claims that are backed up by the canon."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 05:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Talk:AntiSora

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AntiSora Vs Anti-Sora

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