Talk:AntiSora

Anti-Sora?

Anti-Sora? I thought his name was Shadow Sora, like the Shadow Roxas in his Twilight Town.Therequiembellishere 02:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• In the official game guide for the game the normal enemy is called Shadow Sora, but the boss is called Anti-Sora.

Durza - 10:17 PM - 3/2/'07

By "the normal enemy" are you talking about the small one that fly around in the battles?Therequiembellishere 21:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I don't think it's a Heartless, it's just his Shadow-er-Anti-Form.Therequiembellishere 21:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do mean that. And I guess I don't know if it's a Heartless or not, but I'd that's the best way to categorize it. Durza 16:46 - 5 March - 2007

I don't think it's the best way. Sure, it's Heartless-esque, but a true Heartless certainly can't be born when Sora hasn't lost his heart. I say it should be a normal enemy.

It's possible it's just a Heartless that can take the form of someone else, not necessarily Sora's Heartless. Other than that, I have no real opinion. Scottch 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Can this be merged with Anti-Sora? They seemed to be lesser versions of A.Sora.--N/A

*thumbs up* --Hecko X 11:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

article needs a bit of cleaning up and to make things clearer. reading this discussion page cleared it up, but shadow sora and anti-sora need to be made more distinct.

I found anti-sora to be an incredibly hard fight (second to the riku fight before behemoth, which murdered me for days.) might wanna stick a tip or two in there if you have one. personally, i just retry until i get a lucky break.

Rikloud - sleep TALK - Yeah well seems like a boring place to take a nap anyway I didn't find him that hard only took me 3 or 4 tries which is nothing compared to the number of times it took me to beat Cerberus the 1st time or Giant Ursula (I haven't got to the first Dark Riku fight yet)

Where do I put the strategy ?

I've been merging strategy info from Villains in Kingdom Hearts/Strategies, and once I've merged the info, I remove it. The sections that I've still left there, I've no idea on how to merge them. A bigger puzzle is that of Anti-Sora. Here, we see more of a story than a strategy page. Where exactly do I put the strategy ? Another issue with this page is that it has info about AntiForm, which is supposed to be exclusive to Kingdom Hearts II. Shouldn't we just explicitly say that this is the enemy page for Anti-Sora from the first Kingdom Hearts ? Today you will be examined for the Mark of Mastery. • TroisNyxÉtienne

Done?

Orpheus of the Lyre Let's Talk ! — Prepare to scream ! Sally, why didn't I listen to you? I know this is in the improvement section but besides minor changes and trivia, is this article basically done?

"Heartless"

1) It showed up at the Awakening, and became a Heartless;

In a dream sequence that has no bearing on the reality of the Kingdom Hearts universe. Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them.

2) Hook calls the Shadow Sora's Heartless;

No, he doesn't.

The only times he mentions Heartless are

"Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats."

"Hmph. You’re wasting your time! The Heartless have devoured that girl's heart. I'll stake me other hand it’s lost forever."

AntiSora is never mentioned in dialogue. Ever. You are now imagining evidence for your position.

And Sora's Heartless is, surprise, the Shadow he became in Hollow Bastion! You can't have a Heartless while still having a heart.

3) ) It has yellow Heartless goddamn eyes;

So does AntiForm and Hostile Program. Are these now Pureblood Heartless?

4) What the hell do you think Shadows ARE?

I ask you the same thing. Do you seriously think they're the actual, literal shadows of beings? When there's no indication in the games? At all?

Sora has no shadow during that part of the game. The shadow is playful and mocks Sora. Y'know, like Peter Pan's shadow in the film, Peter Pan, which the Neverland world is based on? It has no entry in the Journal, not even in Final Mix, as opposed to every Heartless. Plackers 20:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

1. ...really? You're trying to use "It's too absurd to believe that such a world could exist?" in Kingdom Hearts? By the way, do you remember how he got to Traverse Town?
2. ....um, yeah, and the hold was crawling with Shadow Sora's. It's pretty 2+2=4 right there.
3. ...then where did the first Heartless come from? Again, the series is pretty clear that Pureblood's are the darkness within hearts made manifest - this is why whenever you see someone having their heart stolen, they become an Emblem, not a Pureblood, while a Darkside appears from the whole Sora, and Zexion explains that the Destiny Islands Darkside was from Riku. As for "making up evidence" - umm, you're asking us to believe that there is some type of enemy called "Dark Manifestation" (a term you made up), that Riku has the power to make them here, when he mentions being able to control Heartless, but not anywhere else in the series, where he has pretty explicit power over darkness, and is better at it to boot, and that for some reason this is the only enemy in the series that is neither Heartless, Nobody, Disney, or Final Fantasy. What?!
4. Also, what do you think Guardian is? It's not part of Xehanort's Heartless, it's, well, his guardian. Which is not his Heartless.
5. Well, Nomura did say that AntiForm was, yes. Hostile Program is not, but seriously - manifested shadows with Heartless eyes, made by someone who says he learned how to control the Heartless? Who do you think you're fooling?
6. Umm, fuck yeah: "Creatures that seemed born of darkness...What are they? Are they truly sentient beings? Could they be the shadows of those who lost their hearts in my experiments?"
7. ...Bit Sniper, huh? How about World of Chaos? Or Guardian? You do have a chance to pull out your journal after the first battle with Ansem, so it's not that you just can't check it. How about Shadow Sora? And why would that matter, anyway? If it was a Disney character as you claim, well Glut is too.

Your main thrust here seems to be that the AntiSora is based off of a concept in Peter Pan, so it must not be a Heartless. Well, that ignores how pretty much all Heartless appear - the Bouncywild is based off of monkeys in Tarzan, the Nightwalker is based off the Chinese Jiang Shi. Even the Pureblood Dark Thorn is based off of Beast's rose. Glorious CHAOS! 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

1. How is how Sora got to Traverse Town germane to anything? Dive to the Heart was an internal process for Sora. He never actually left the beach he was sleeping on.
2. Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals. And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it.
3. Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness? Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally. And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean. You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess.
4. ...A part of Xehanort's Heartless? Do people really believe it's a being in its own right?
5. Provide the source for Nomura saying AntiForm is.
6. Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you.
7. Two are in the final battle, which they never base journal entries on, nor could you be able to check it after defeating both. Guardian is an aspect of Xehanort's Heartless (so is World of Chaos, for that matter).

My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You also seem to be interpreting this section:

"Riku: The Heartless obey me now, Sora. Now I have nothing to fear.

Sora: You’re stupid. Sooner or later they’ll swallow your heart.

Riku: Not a chance. My heart’s too strong.

Sora: Riku...

Riku: I’ve picked up a few other tricks as well. Like this, for instance"

As meaning that the Shadow Sora creation is distinct from his ability to control the Heartless. Well, this ignores the main mythology behind Pureblood Heartless (that they are the darkness in people's hearts) and the symbolism in the beginning of the game. Plus, if he is creating Heartless in that scene, it would fit perfectly with what he says - and obviously, he's creating something.

Then this: "Captain Hook: Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats. "

Since Riku doesn't say anything about sending the Shadow Soras after Sora, and Hook doesn't mention it either, it stands to reason that, since they know that the Shadow Sora's are down there, that they are included as Heartless.

Then, we have this:

"It is confirmed by Tetsuya Nomura that this event triggered a side effect and created the AntiForm when Sora was given his new clothes and Drive Form abilities a year later. "

This isn't explicit evidence, but it puts a huge hole in the theory that AntiSora is something unrelated to Heartless. Glorious CHAOS! 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

A quote (without a source, no less) which you cribbed off the "Shadow Form" article. That establishes absolutely nothing in relation to AntiSora/Shadow Sora. And, holy god, stop making plurals with apostrophes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"There is no difference between a “pure blood” Heartless, and the ones with the emblems, only the process of their births. But a heart does not appear from the pure blood Heartless. This is touched upon in Kingdom Hearts 1, and may be elaborated on in the future." Plackers 11:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between Anti and Shadow Sora (Both KH1)? - Endless Oblivion

Anti sora is the sora shaped heartless Sora fights and Shadow sora is sora while he is a shadow heartless in hollow bastion -orpheus of the lyre

AntiSora is the boss enemy. Shadow Sora is the regular enemy you encounter on the way to the AntiSora fight. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them."

This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane. If you want to bring up that it's only an internal process, that's acceptable, that's fine, but it's stupid to claim that "it has no bearing on the KH universe", seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence, and there's an entire world made out of hearts, showing that what happens in them affects others.

Here's the AntiForm quote, and it actually implies that Riku's Dark Mode is pseudo-Heartless as well, meaning that all original enemies in KH are Heartless to some extent: "Concerning Sora’s AntiForm, you could think that the reason is related to his changing into a heartless once before. In fact, beyond Sora’s Nobody, it is natural to assume that Sora is influenced by the heartless. Riku’s Dark Mode is similar."

"Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals."

They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words. How about you stop trying to get off point?

"And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it."

The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that. And they can appear three at a time, so that too. As for "why I take it to be a relative reference" - because Hook does not refer to anything else, therefore the implication is that he is including the Shadow Sora in his reference to the Heartless.

"Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness?"

Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".

Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...

"Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally."

...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.

"And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean."

If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.

"You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess."

Crank Tower is part of Queen of Hearts, a Disney enemy, though Riku could count. But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway? My point was that, in that game, there is no non-Heartless/Disney/FF enemy. So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none. However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless, and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.

"Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you."

How about, when we're discussing a work that doesn't take the metaphorical and literal and splice them together Frankenstein-style, I will. In the absence of such a discussion, no I think it's completely fair to take the name literally. And again - The same "SORA's SHADOW BECOMES HEARTLESS" sequence happens right there, in the beginning of the game, and each time we see a strong Pureblood Heartless, it is in response to someone's darkness - the DI Darkside for Riku, the Dark Thorn for the Beast, etc. You can try to write the intro off as "dreams", but that won't work, as dreams are shown to be quite a real thing in the series. Hell, in "Through the Looking Glass", Wonderland was written off as a dream, but we still went there, didn't we?

"My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes."

For having no journal entry - not any sort of evidence. Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.

For the Ultimania guides - I've not had a chance to read them. What do they refer to for Guardian, Bit Sniper, World of Chaos, and Ansem?

As for "no evidence" - seriously? You're trying denial at this point? Okay:

1. For the journal, the AntiSora and Shadow Sora don't appear as anything else, so it's valid to assume they could be any of them from the journal alone.
2. It appears as Sora's shadow, in the same manner as in the Awakening, which became a Heartless. For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk, in a real enough world that others could enter, so the analogue is well supported.
3. Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart, and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.
4. AntiSora appears very similar to AntiForm, explained by Nomura to be a Heartless-like form of Sora. Plus, "Anti" being used to name both sets up a strong correlation, similar to the "Shadow" shared by Shadow, Gigant Shadow, Mega Shadow, Neo Shadow, and Next Shadow.
5. The yellow eyes belong predominantly to the Heartless, with one exception, so it's a valid use.
6. Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

There are some obstacles to this, though: according to you Ultimania does not call it a Heartless (how exactly does it call other enemies Heartless, though?), and Riku mentions "other tricks" beyond controlling the Heartless (though turning things into Heartless would serve quite well as an "other trick"). While the boss is quite closely linked to the Peter Pan theme, it still stems from someone controlling Heartless, not a PP character, and most Heartless are themed by the world they appear in - for example, Dark Thorn, a beast-like rose-based Pureblood Heartless, that would serve as a perfect analogue to the AntiSora for Beast instead of Sora. Right now, the Ultimania guide looks like the only thing that could specifically prove it's not a Heartless, besides a quote from Nomura, who doesn't seem to have talked about AntiSora at all. How exactly does the Ultimania guide show that AntiSora is or isn't a Heartless, and how does it show the ones who are a Heartless that they are? Can you provide a few scans, please?Glorious CHAOS! 18:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Section break

This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane.

Bwha? He gets to Traverse Town through a random dark corridor. Dive into the Heart is, again, an internal process and does not involve physical transportation.

seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence

Dark corridor. Read the Ansem Reports and please stop bringing up random shit.

They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words.

No, they aren't. This, like much you believe, is imagined.

The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that.

4:57. Shadow Sora only allows you to deplete half of his HP, and retreats into the floor. Please pay attention to the games you are playing next time.

Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".

So Kairi somehow restored Sora from simply his darkness. His actual heart is lost forever.

Do you honestly not realize your mind-numbingly literal reading of everything simply makes things more complicated and inconsistent?

Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...

No? His statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, which shouldn't be if your explanation holds water. The two types are stated to be the same "other than process of birth". One being made of hearts and the other not is a pretty huge difference.

...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.

"What I believe to be metaphor is literal, therefore all cases of metaphor are literal!" What? You are confusing metaphor with figurative things in the real world taken literally in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Metaphors that are literal are not metaphors.

If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.

...It's called a description, Jesus Fucking Christ. You know, like describing Sora as "a boy wearing clown shoes"? When people do that, they do not literally mean "Boy Wearing Clown Shoes" as an actual, special, term with additional meaning. Why the fuck am I explaining this basic concept of language to you?

But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway?

And?

So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none.

You're really milking that quote for all it's worth. Skewed to the darkness != Heartless.

However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless,

Despite being, I dunno, being an obvious reference to Vexen's manufacture of Replicas? And having no heart to be formed from?

and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.

Yes, which is why it disappears in a digital fade-out, is labeled as a "miscellaneous" enemy in guides, and is not mentioned again ever.

I think it's completely fair to take the name literally.

So you truly believe that the first Heartless were produced from the literal shadows of effectively dead people consigned to Hollow Bastion's basement? I should now just roll my eyes and stop this conversation with a dense brick wall, but I'm a sucker for punishment.

Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.

Name them. Beyond enemies that appear in the final battles. Enemy Gummi Ships don't count.

For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk

No, it didn't. You defeat it, it disappears and is never mentioned again. Furthermore, it arose from a reflection, not Roxas's shadow. What a Dusk disguised itself as was Vivi.

Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart,

Yes, using the heart as a vessel. Just like Emblems.

and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.

Again, Guardian is not a being unto itself. There is nothing that says Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn was produced from simple darkness.

"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves." —Ansem Report 4, made before Xehanort made Emblems.

Sora turned into a Shadow. The hearts that fell from Kingdom Hearts, when Ansem the Wise used his device on it, all turned into Shadows.

Once again, your literal misunderstanding of what the game is saying is making you wrong. All Heartless are the manifestation of the darkness in hearts, but they aren't independent of hearts.

Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

...Or he doesn't care to mention a minor enemy. Or is more aware and has more experience with the Heartless and therefore has more faith that the Heartless will manage Sora. Or you're just looking too deep into a throwaway line and taking it absolutely literally, which you always seem to have an issue with. Should I remind you of the time on Wikipedia that you absolutely insisted that Lexaeus's weapon was "Centurion"?

As for Ultimania, a story note (one of very few mentions) refers to Anti/Shadow Sora in "リクが差し向けたソラの影と戦う". "Sora's shadow". No mention of Heartless. No connection to the Heartless is ever made in any official source, which is what I've been saying the entire time. Oh, and "Guardian" is not mentioned. Ever. The closest phrase I bothered to translate is "Ansem's Shield". Everything is simply "Ansem attacks" and the like, regardless if "Guardian" is actually doing it. Kingdom Hearts fans making up something whole cloth based on specious evidence? Wouldn't be the first time! Plackers 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I reverted my individual replies to the above, because it's simply not worth it. If you really care to hear them, I can re-add them, but I doubt you will. At this point, I'm tired of dealing with your condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere. The one thing you've provided that actually serves as evidence, instead of just condescension, straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game, would be the Ultimania: please provide a scan of it's coverage for AntiSora (and Shadow Sora, if it is treated separately), preferably the Bestiary section coverage, though if you know of other coverage, that would be useful too. Also, please provide scans of how the bestiary treats a normal Heartless, and a Disney boss, for comparison. Otherwise, the currently available evidence points toward it being a Heartless.Glorious CHAOS! 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

"Condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior". As opposed to you? "Straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game". It must feel wonderful to assign your own faults to others, Mister "Sora's heart went to Kairi!" Also entertaining is your attempt to assign me the blame for this discussion going nowhere. It takes two to tango, baby! Plackers 07:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Would I be correct in assuming that you either won't or can't provide the scans, then? If all you are going to do is to deliver insults, then please go to a different wiki.Glorious CHAOS! 08:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Azul's Comments

Wow, this is a very long "argument". It's kinda hard to wrap my head around. I think I'll comment a bit. I have a feeling this discussion goes deeper than just arguing whether or not he's a heartless, but that's just my opinion.

The general appearance of heartless is a figure/being that has bright yellow eyes and is dark in color. The same characteristics of AntiSora. Also, like the Shadow heartless, it moves around the area by "swimming" around the floor. It's hard to identify this being, but I'm leaning on Heartless.

Sorry if I'm overlooking alot of things. I'll reply back once I've read the whole thing and have thought long and hard on what to say. My KH memory is a little foggy. -Azul ^{(talk ・contribs)} 01:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

AntiSora Vs Anti-Sora

Shouldn't the artile be named Anti-Sora since all the other Anti-forms have the "-"?--Xabryn 00:12, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

No, because the name is "AntiSora", according to the official Bradygames guides.Glorious CHAOS! 02:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

DDD

AntiSora or Sora's Heartless, what's the decision? It needs to go somewhere."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what exactly are we talking about here? LightRoxas 20:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

AntiSora, Sora's Heartless was terminated in Re:c. Erry 20:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Are we sure it's not a memory of Sora's Heartless, though? I mean, it's not like the Sora pickups are actually Sora either."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 22:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, Sora's Heartless didn't exist at the point of time where Sora and Riku went to to go into the worlds of sleep. Erry 22:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Wait ignore that, I just realized we're talking about Sora's HEART. But I don't think it's Sora's Heartless, because the incarnation of Sora's Heartless that was in the form of AntiSora was in the Datascape, which means while it is possible that Sora's Heartless could take the form of AntiSora, but we haven't literally seen it yet besides the Datascape. So I think it should be on the AntiSora page as that is the only memory that the real-world Sora has of a Heartless taking a similar shape to Sora. Erry 22:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

According to this, it's not AntiSora. Just a darker KH3D Sora with the face obscured. maggosh 04:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

So, Sora page? It's like AVN without the armor?"We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 06:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesnt look anything like that in-game, when the Soras fly up at you they have the EXACT model of AntiSora, I just replayed the level to make sure.--124.169.108.144 06:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The Dive to the Heart image is all wrong, Riku is holding Soul Eater in it and some of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire.--Vanitas (talk) 06:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't notice the Soul Eater, but that's the only thing that isn't in the game but this is the Ultimania... Erry 11:04, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Still I replayed the level and the Sora-enemies have the EXACT apperance of AntiSora, they have Yellow eyes and an overall Dark apperance, that may have just been a concept image in the Ultimania since Riku does not wield Soul Eater in that level and none of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire, they are all wearing KH1 attire in the actual game.--124.169.108.144 13:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"none of the Soras are wearing KH2 attire, they are all wearing KH1 attire in the actual game." Actually the Sora's wear KH1, KH2 and KH3D attire. Erry 13:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Youre right, sorry, but the Sora-enemies are AntiSoras, they have Yellow eyes and the overall shadowy apperane of a pureblood Heartless.

http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:AntiSora2.PNG, here this image proves its an AntiSora.--Vanitas (talk) 09:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The picture you supplied have white eyes...also I'm sure they wield black Wooden Swords. maggosh 12:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The pic s not that good, if you look at them in game, they have yellow eyes. Also to me it looked like they were using black Kingdom Keys, not wooden swords.--Vanitas (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

So, hey. Can we not go around being "blargadarg this terrible image clearly proves it.". Seriously we can sit on this one if we have to."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 00:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

How?

How did Riku just "create" an AntiSora Heartless? Heartless are created when a heart is consumed by darkness, so how does Riku just create one? --Elfdemon (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

That's Emblem Heartless. Pureblood Heartless are just generated from the darkness in a heart, so they will never go away until darkness itself is eliminated."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 02:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Why did Sora turn into a Shadow then? Also, I remember a scene in KH2 where the hearts of Emblem Heartless fell to the floor and became Pureblood Heartless. What was that about? --Elfdemon (talk) 02:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

1. Sora is a special case.
2. The hearts fell, and then corridors of darkness opened and the Shadows emerged to feed on them. However, Days makes it clear that Emblems contain hearts and Purebloods do not."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 03:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Would that mean that when Scar turned into a Heartless, he was an Emblem Heartless even though he didn't have an Emblem on him? Also, wouldn't that make the Ghosts of Scar Pureblood Heartless because it says they are "created from the evil in Scar's heart"? Does evil=darkness? --Elfdemon (talk) 03:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Still don't think Scar was a Heartless. I've always been under the impression that Purebloods are created when someone submits to the Darkness in their heart while Emblems are created when someone's heart is stolen by Darkness. Sora stabbing himself with the Keyblade of heart released the (small amount of) Darkness in his heart and turned him into a lowly Pureblood Shadow. As for how Riku created the AntiSora? Not sure. Perhaps he remolded a powerful Pureblood like a Darkside or something. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I also thought too. Things get kind of complicated and confusing if that were to be the case though, such as the AntiSora situation. After I began thinking though, I don't think this is the case because when you destroy an Emblem Heartless the heart is visibly set free. If what you're saying is true and Purebloods are also created from hearts, then why don't we see the hearts being set free when we destroy them as well? When a Pureblood is destroyed, it is destroyed in just a puff of darkness and seem to be destroyed forever. So, in KH1, when Sora was a Shadow, if he were to be destroyed, then he would've been gone forever I'm pretty sure. Also, I just replayed Pride Lands, and Pete says that Scar became a Heartless. Another thing I wanted to mention is Shadow Globs. Those are Pureblood Heartless. I highly doubt that someone's heart could turn into a Shadow Glob, they seem to just be masses of darkness, and that's pretty much what other Pureblood Heartless are too. Just beings made up of pure darkness, which is why they're called Purebloods. But wait didn't Terra-Xehanort create a machine that artificially imitated the way to make someone's heart be consumed by darkness? This implies that people's hearts were consumed by darkness before he ever created Emblem Heartless which means that Purebloods are people's hearts that have been consumed by darkness? I'm so confused. --Elfdemon (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

A wise man once said: "You can't free a prisoner who locked himself up.". Like I said, when someone gives in to the Darkness in their heart, they become a Pureblood, it only makes sense that you can't free a heart that willingly chose this path. Then again, while I was scrolling down here, I noticed something further up on the page which says "[Nomura's] statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing". In the end though, it's really up to your interpretation of the whole thing. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, has it ever been explained why Sora is a special case and why he turned into a Pureblood instead of an Emblem? --Elfdemon (talk) 04:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not been explained. Sora and Scar are just special cases, like Ansem, and until we get a definite statement from the games, we can't say what types they are.

Purebloods are made of darkness, which grows in people's hearts. They are not made of the actual hearts. Basically, the darkness in someone's heart spawns Purebloods, which flock to the person. They are basically just like succubi, feeding off of hearts without making new Heartless.

Emblems are made from actual collapsed hearts, which are freed when the Emblem is defeated. They are like zombies, and Ansem's invention of the machine is what caused the Heartless plague (which, apparently, had already been defeated once in Chi, somehow)."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay. --Elfdemon (talk) 23:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Wait no this is all wrong.
Pureblood Heartless are the darkness from someone's heart animated. When someone's heart is broken or unlocked, the darkness from within the heart comes out and turns into a Pureblood Heartless. Pureblood Heartless can also be created from a part of the darkness of someone's heart. For example, Riku made some of the darkness within his heart come out of his heart and it formed into AntiSora.
Emblem Heartless are created when someone's heart falls into darkness, whether it be intentional or forcefully. Emblem Heartless are hearts basically trapped inside of a shell of darkness. You can make your heart fall into darkness intentionally by allowing the darkness within your heart come out and take over your heart. The darkness wraps around your heart and you then become an Emblem Heartless. Your heart can forcefully fall into darkness by other Heartless or a strong amount of darkness taking over your heart. The darkness wraps around your heart and you then become an Emblem Heartless.
The difference between Purebloods and Emblems are pretty clear. Purebloods are the darkness from within a heart animated and "alive". Emblems are the actual heart itself consumed by darkness.
When Sora unlocked his heart with the Keyblade of heart, the darkness from within his heart came out and became a Shadow Heartless. His heart took refuge inside of Kairi. Unlike most Purebloods though, Sora's Heartless was aware of himself, which happened for unknown reasons; Sora is just special. When Kairi hugged Sora's Heartless, Sora's heart came out of Kairi and merged back with his darkness (Sora's Heartless) which made him whole again. (Not completely whole though, because his body, Roxas, still wasn't a part of him yet.)
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is an Emblem Heartless. This is how Ansem, Seeker of Darkness came to be: Terra-Xehanort extracted his heart from his body. Unlocking a heart and extracting it are different. Unlocking the heart unlocks the darkness within it which turns into a Pureblood Heartless. Extracting the heart simply removes the heart from the body while keeping it completely intact, not losing any darkness. Terra-Xehanort did this and his heart put on a brown robe and was known as Ansem, Seeker of Darkness while Terra-Xehanort's body was left behind which formed into Xemnas. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness then took host of Riku so that he would be able to wield a Keyblade. In KH1, on the destroyed Destiny Islands, when you confront Riku controlled by Ansem Seeker of Darkness, he then willingly falls into darkness which turns him into an Emblem Heartless, which is the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness we all know and love.
It is completely unknown whether Scar's Heartless is a Pureblood or Emblem. Pete saying "Anger and Jealousy turned the king of Pride Rock into a Heartless" is not much to go off of. Two things could've happened: The first thing is Scar's heart broke when Simba pushed him off that cliff and the darkness from his heart quickly came out and became a Pureblood Heartless and jumped back up to fight. The second thing that could've happened is that Scar could've willingly fell into the darkness in his heart, which would turn him into an Emblem Heartless, even though he does not have an Emblem on him. So yeah, there isn't much to go on so it is completely unknown whether he was Pureblood or Emblem. As for the Ghosts of Scar, the mystery behind those is even more unknown.
So yeah, that's the difference between Pureblood Heartless and Emblem Heartless and how each of them are created. --Elfdemon (talk) 06:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Do have any evidence or proof to support any of this? Or are you stating your interpretation of things? Either way, I was always under the impression that Ansem's robe WAS his body as a Heartless, not an actual piece of clothing. And I still don't think Scar was ever a Heartless. As I've said, Pete is not a reliable source. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The only evidence I really have is from an Ansem Report. The Ansem Report states "They are born from those who've lost their hearts...". In my opinion, I think that my interpretation leaves the least plot holes and makes the most sense. Saying that "Heartless are simply just beings of darkness and made from darkness" doesn't quite add up because of Sora turning into a Shadow. Yeah, I get that he's special, but I don't see how that could ever explain him turning into a Shadow. Also, I don't buy that Kairi was just able to return Sora because of her "Princess of Heart powers". The exact same thing happened to Eraqus. His heart broke and Terra went over to embrace him and he seemingly disappeared, but his heart was able to take refuge inside of Terra. The same thing happened to Sora: Kairi ran over to embrace Sora after he unlocked his heart, he seemingly disappeared, then I think his heart then took refuge inside of Kairi. And saying that "Purebloods are created when someone willingly falls into darkness and Emblems are created when someone forcefully falls into darkness" doesn't quite add up as well, because of the AntiSora situation. My theory also greatly clears up the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness situation as well. It pretty much clears it all up. Is it fact? No. None of what any of us think about this is fact really. But until we get more information on this from future games, interviews, etc and until Nomura straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created or until a KH game straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created, it's all interpretation and minor things to go off of like very vague comments from Ansem, Terra-Xehanort, etc. Also yeah, Pete might not be the best source for information, especially since many villains in the KH series purposefully try to steer us in the wrong direction and give us false information. I definitely think it's completely possible that Scar was a Heartless, but yeah, it's also very possible that Pete was lying and Scar just simply gained the ability to control darkness, like most of the other villains. --Elfdemon (talk) 19:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The Ansem's Reports, in canon, are full of lies. We can't take them as Word of God unless their claims are verified elsewhere in the series. That being said, the Secret Ansem's Report (where they started the retcons) definitely say Sora regained his human form from Kairi's heart, specifically not his own. We see multiple Pureblood Heartless created from one person before their hearts are spilled -- the Darkside in the Dive to the Heart was Sora's, after all, as implicitly are the other Heartless that appear. Additionally, the way it's described in some sources, a Heartless is born when someone with darkness in their heart has it separated from their body and soul, with the Heartless being a side effect of the process, and may not necessarily be the heart itself -- although the process of retrieving the heart is the same as defeating the Heartless, and the stolen heart appears from the Heartless's remains, making it a pretty meaningless distinction. Perhaps we could say that when the heart is stolen, it disappears from the realm of light and an emblem heartless takes its place. Then again, the KH3D glossary explicitly retcons canon, claiming Heartless have no hierarchy when the plot of both KH and KH2 specifically relied on saying they do (though it may have been misworded, and simply meant they aren't organized in the way the Organization is, as a strict, rational coorporation). For what it's worth, it claims that "chaotic Purebloods arise spontaneously" (i.e., they are simply living embodiments of the darkness in hearts), while "Emblems are created artificially by Ansem" -- meaning that his machine facilitates whatever process allows Emblem Heartless to steal hearts and create new Emblems from them. Furthermore, it's a huge plot point that Xehanort's Heartless is sharing bodyspace with Riku's heart -- that Heartless has to be, functionally, equivalent to a heart...

...here's what has to be true, basically:

• Heartless act like a person who has no heart (although so do Nobodies, allegedly).
• Emblem Heartless release hearts when slain, which can be retrieved into the artificial Kingdom Hearts if done by the Keyblade
• Emblem Heartless are created when hearts succumb to darkness (not necessarily through being stolen by another Emblem -- see the Necromancers in The Land of Dragons), in a process somehow catalyzed by Ansem's experiment -- EXCEPT IN SORA'S CASE. If a heart is stolen but contains no darkness, it does not produce a Heartless.
• Sora's case is backwards and frontwards an anomaly, as he is also the only one ever to regain human form without destroying his Nobody, "due to his bonds to others". We can't really take any information from his case besides the pointer to not make blanket statements about how heartloss works, and the need for citations.
• Xemnas in KH3D (the newest canon) talks about the hearts and bodies of the organiation being separated into "Heartless" and "Nobodies".
• Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart.

It's really damn similar to demons in Xanth, honestly. Demons in Xanth only have souls, and that soul is so busy trying to do the job of the other missing components, that it can't do its real job to snuff, so the demon acts soulless. The Heartless have hearts working overtime to give them the physicality of a body, so they lack emotion or love. The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes), so they're not always completely "there", and fade away when they die. Something that is missing an important piece of itself becomes obsessed with that piece, and forgets to treasure what it already has."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 21:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think that my interpretation leaves the least plot holes and makes the most sense.'

I think the same about my interpretation. Also I find yours to be too confusing.

Yeah, I get that he's special, but I don't see how that could ever explain him turning into a Shadow.

Except that Sora's only special because he's not special. Master Xehanort called him a "dull, ordinary boy".

Also, I don't buy that Kairi was just able to return Sora because of her "Princess of Heart powers".

Same here. I think that it was the special bond that they share that allowed Sora to become human again. Then again, it could have because of Sora. Ansem the Wise did say "Sora was the only one able to return to his human form without destroying his Nobody. That is a statement to the love in his heart for other people.".

The exact same thing happened to Eraqus. His heart broke and Terra went over to embrace him and he seemingly disappeared, but his heart was able to take refuge inside of Terra.

No. Eraqus died. Literally, died. But as one's heart is immortal, Eraqus was able to seek refuge in Terra.

The same thing happened to Sora: Kairi ran over to embrace Sora after he unlocked his heart, he seemingly disappeared, then I think his heart then took refuge inside of Kairi.

No, Kairi ran over to catch Sora who was falling. He didn't "seemingly disappear", he actually disappeared. If he had, what would that accomplish for him? They'd just be back to square one.

And saying that "Purebloods are created when someone willingly falls into darkness and Emblems are created when someone forcefully falls into darkness" doesn't quite add up as well, because of the AntiSora situation.

I agree. But I'm stickin' with it.

My theory also greatly clears up the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness situation as well. It pretty much clears it all up.

Makes things cloudier for me.

Is it fact? No. None of what any of us think about this is fact really.

True.

But until we get more information on this from future games, interviews, etc and until Nomura straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created or until a KH game straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created, it's all interpretation and minor things to go off of like very vague comments from Ansem, Terra-Xehanort, etc.

A statement from Nomura(somewhere) treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, remember? I mentioned this earlier.

Also yeah, Pete might not be the best source for information, especially since many villains in the KH series purposefully try to steer us in the wrong direction and give us false information.

Also he's not too bright.

I definitely think it's completely possible that Scar was a Heartless, but yeah, it's also very possible that Pete was lying and Scar just simply gained the ability to control darkness, like most of the other villains.

Or Pete was just wrong. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The Ansem's Reports, in canon, are full of lies.

What makes you say that?

That being said, the Secret Ansem's Report (where they started the retcons) definitely say Sora regained his human form from Kairi's heart, specifically not his own.

I really hate that word. Though Ansem the Wise said otherwise(heh) in KH3D.

We see multiple Pureblood Heartless created from one person before their hearts are spilled -- the Darkside in the Dive to the Heart was Sora's, after all, as implicitly are the other Heartless that appear.

The Dive to the Heart is a strange space. Sora had never left his island before his first Dive yet his pillars depict the Princessess and people who knew them.

Additionally, the way it's described in some sources, a Heartless is born when someone with darkness in their heart has it separated from their body and soul, with the Heartless being a side effect of the process, and may not necessarily be the heart itself -- although the process of retrieving the heart is the same as defeating the Heartless, and the stolen heart appears from the Heartless's remains, making it a pretty meaningless distinction.

Never heard that before, so I can't argue.

(not necessarily through being stolen by another Emblem -- see the Necromancers in The Land of Dragons)

Those were Nightwalkers. Necromancers are the Cavern of Remembrance versions of the Shaman Heartless

Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart.

How does that "have to be true" as you call it?

The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes)

Nobodies being able to grow hearts of their has been hinted from the very beginning, KH3D just confirmed it. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, just to make sure I'm clear on this, Purebloods are simply a manifestation of darkness that can be created from darkness itself or the darkness from someone's heart? They are the byproduct of a strong amount of darkness whether it be of the heart or just in general? They can be created from simply someone's strong amount of darkness, like with AntiSora, or they can be created when someone's darkness leaves their body? When that darkness leaves the body, it becomes a Pureblood? Emblems were originally created by Terra-Xehanort's machine, but afterwards, any heart that is consumed by darkness turns into an Emblem? So, was I right about some of what I said about Purebloods being the darkness in people's hearts animated and that Sora's Heartless was the darkness inside Sora's heart that came out when his heart left? Where did his heart go if this is the case? Where do hearts go when they are broken, unlocked, or leave the body? Okay, now I have a few questions. First, before Terra-Xehanort created that machine, what happened to hearts that were consumed by darkness? How did him making that machine all of a sudden trigger it to be that when a heart falls to darkness, it becomes an Emblem? Next, is how come when Terra-Xehanort unlocked his heart in BBS his guardian melted and he fell into the Realm of Darkness? He unlocked his heart which made him get consumed by darkness. Shouldn't that have created a Heartless and a Nobody and his heart being consumed or whatever? Why didn't this happen to him and instead he fell into the Realm of Darkness? Why didn't he create a Heartless like other people would've? Next, is wouldn't it be possible for someone to have a Pureblood Heartless and an Emblem Heartless? If a Pureblood is the darkness from someone's heart and an Emblem is the actual heart itself being consumed, then couldn't someone have multiple Heartless? If so, would you have to defeat them both to re-create the original person? Why does killing a Pureblood make the person return when a Pureblood is just darkness? If you kill someone's Emblem Heartless and their Nobody, but not their Pureblood, does that re-create the person except without any darkness in their heart? Why did the Pureblood Heartless originally go to the Realm of Darkness? Their goal is to consume hearts and there's obviously like no hearts in the Realm of Darkness, so why aren't they out there in the Realm of Light consuming hearts? I know Sora and Mickey sealed the Door to Darkness so no more Pureblood Heartless can get out, but why did the Pureblood Heartless go there in the first place? Pureblood Heartless obviously aren't born in the Realm of Darkness, as seen with Sora's Heartless and AntiSora. Since Pureblood Heartless are the darkness of someone's heart, then why isn't Vanitas considered to be a Pureblood Heartless because he's literally the darkness of Ven's heart extracted? Do we know for sure if Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is Pureblood or Emblem? If not, then what are your thoughts on it? Also, what are your thoughts on whether Scar is Pureblood or Emblem? Sorry, I'm just very confused on this topic because over the past month, many people across the internet have been telling me different things, so I've been left extremely confused. Could you tell me exactly what things are known about this and are canon and what things are false and unanswered? It really seems that a majority of KH fans are confused about this topic, which is very odd considering Heartless are the main enemy type in the series and have been there since the first game. --Elfdemon (talk) 22:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)