Forum:The Start of Walkthrough Space

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Eternal Nothingness XIII - Ven, Aqua... I'll find some way to make things right. TALK - This light... it's so warm. — 22:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC) Well, we've officially started it: KHWiki's own Walkthrough Space :D I spent a great deal of time talking to Erry on the IRC, and together we compiled a list of issues we'd like to discuss with the community regarding the walkthroughs: Pace - We're moving far too quickly. I understand everyone's enthusiastic, but shouldn't we be handling pages one at a time to ensure each is as flawless and accurate as possible rather than creating dozens of half-complete and terribly written sections just to get the guides over with faster? Placeholders or not, there's no reason why we should have just started Destiny Islands (which is now looking quite good, I must say) and suddenly now have pages for every world in the game. Now people are trying to start a KHII guide before we're even finished perfecting KH1? Slow and steady wins the race, people! Strategies - This area has several sub-topics in need for discussion: Actual Writing - NEVER use any word related to death (killed, die, etc.). There is NO concept of death in any of the currently released KH games. Say, "keep away from the Unknown when it starts using its rope attack, as the attack is lethal and can instantly deplete Terra/Aqua/Ventus's HP to zero," NOT "keep away from the Unknown when he starts using his rope attack as it is lethal and can cause a 1-hit kill." Multi-Phase/Opponent Battles (Tabs) - How are we to handle boss battles such as the Clayton + Stealth Sneak/Final Episode battles against Terra-Xehanort? Will we be using tabs as I did here and here? Through tabs, we won't have to worry about cramming up a strategy section/unnecessarily increasing a page's length through multiple templates. We also have another place to put "Boss: Xemnas" rather than what is currently the "name" section (which Erry and I thought would be cool if we used instead to quote the Information bar for later KH games). In the worst case, tabs could be used to list multiple strategies for the same enemy (harder enemies with multiple methods like Sephiroth) from various users ("Strategy 1" and so on). FM Content - Erry and I have discussed this, just as we have many times, and we both seemed to agree it would be best if we included FM content in with that of the original game, so long as it was CLEARLY MARKED as FM-exclusive (see this). Bonus stories like the Secret Eipsode would get their own pages. Order of Guide Sections - To me, an ideal order of sections for a final guide would be "Main Page w/Table of Contents etc. -> Basics/Gameplay Elements/Controls -> Story Walkthrough -> Bonus Material like how to get Ultima Weapon -> Bestiary/Character stats and abilities/Items Encyclopedia." Do we all agree with this? We appear to be doing the story walkthrough first. The other stuff would be done afterwards when it was all that had to be done. Bestiary/Items Encyclopeida - This, along with character stats/abilities would be done mostly through tables. Could we possibly develop a template not like the enemy article infoboxes for the bestiary section (similar to what's done in the official KH1 guide). Items would list all items and where/how to find them. Color Schemes - There are to be boss templates made in a style similar to that which I used in my BBS guide. Erry and I wanted to discuss doing the templates based on each game's color scheme. Rather than make a template for each type of enemy like we are presently doing, I think it'd be best if we create a single common boss template per game based on the color schemes from each game and use it for each type of boss (KH1 would be dark blues, and so on; we'd get really specific in BBS, Terra's bosses, whether Somebodies or Unversed, would have a brown template, while Aqua's would be blue, and Ventus's green, for example). Templates would still have all the same sections, granted they'd change for each game to include new statistics. Plain vs. Dynamic Colors - So Erry and I are having a bit of a disagreement as to whether we should favor the plain colors (like in this template) or the bold colors from my BBS guide in whatever boss templates we end up creating. I personally hate the plain and bland colors currently in the Heartless boss template; the colors are too dull and blend in with each other, making it hard to differentiate between sections of the template/read what's written in general. My colors are not only bolder, but you can actually see what's going on (or at least I tried to achieve this). Please see this for a comparison between our two ideas for a common KH1 boss template and list which you think is better and why. Walkthrough MoS - Should we add a new section to the MoS regarding all rules for the Walkthrough (this isn't a free-for-all; we MUST have rules before the walkthroughs fall to chaos), or are we going to create a separate mini-MoS or page for walkthrough rules in general? I believe that about covers every topic Erry and I discussed. We look forward to your input!

Lots of info there. My thoughts: About Pace: Before I say anything, I'm in agreeance on not even touching KH II or any other games until the KH walkthrough is complete. However, I don't believe people should be limited to one page per time. If it was only one or two people working on it, that would be great. This isn't our case though; we have more than four users (that I've seen today anyways) edit the walkthrough space. If you put those four+ users all on the same article you'll just get conflicting edits. Why not separate into small groups and "divide and conquer?" For example: Users A and B will tackle worlds 1 through 4. Meanwhile, Users C and D will work on worlds 5 through 8. Once either group gets done or they want something checked, everyone will review the page and comment/help out. Should one group finish-I mean literally have everything shined and checked- before the other, they can just wait till the other group catches up. Obviously this is an example, but you get the point. About Strategies Actual Writing:I concur. This goes without saying, you only write about what happens in-game, even if it is a walkthrough. Multi-Phase/Opponent Battles (Tabs):Agree again. I like the idea of tabs. FM Content:Sounds good to me. Looks good as well. Order of Guides Sections:Agree. Table of contents is definitely a must. Bestiary/Items Encyclopedia:Agree. Color Schemes:Agree. Yay color coding! Plain vs. Dynamic Colors:Hard choice. I say Erry's simply because of a personal preference to darker colors. Granted, the text might be harder to see. To that I say switch to the other template if it becomes a problem. Walkthrough MoS:I'm up for creating a set of rules. Heck, with the amount of forums we have on this topic we have plenty of information to use/get it started. As for section vs subpage: create a subpage. Much cleaner that way. Nice work, guys. ^_^ Your efforts in this huge project are easy to see. Xion4ever Never forget... — 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Eternal Nothingness XIII - I'm not afraid of what the darkness holds now. Even if you do wrest control of my heart from me, even if you cast me into the deepest, darkest abyss, you'll never sway me from the one cause that pushes me to keep on fighting. Whatever the cost, I'm ready to pay it. TALK - There's darkness within me... So what does that matter? I know I'm strong enough to hold it back. — 23:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC) I forgot to mention the issue of categorizing the walkthrough pages (how shall we go about doing it?) and possible dividing of users (but people would not be limited just to their division; if someone who was to only check for correct grammar had a good strategy, he or she could add it). In regards to the template, I suppose we could try reaching a middle ground of sorts. I just tried using a gradient closer to that of the game's boxart/logo color. I'm gonna stick by my version, not because it's mine, but because, as you said, Xion, you can see the text much better in my version (not to mention mine's more visually appealing; that's an ex-Wiki princess for you). I'll try to come up with a sample strategy using my and Erry's templates. Maybe that will help make it easier to decide... EDIT (00:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC): here is the sample boss strategy using my and Erry's templates. Obviously the coding and statistics are wrong/missing some things, but this is just a model. I'm sure Erry and I can reach a happy medium.

KrytenKoro - "I'm the doctor, I'm the patient. Don't forget that - it's important! If you love me like I love me, everybody will be sorry." TALK - I told people to do Destiny Islands, let us all comment, and then proceed from there. I have murder in my eyes for the people who decided to instead throw everything up so that it will now be that many times harder to get them all in standard. The non-DI guides should be locked for now, they are going to need a heavy reformatting. Death: Use knock out or take down, not "deplete to 0". Strategies: Strategies should NOT tell you "this is the way to do it". They should focus on how to deal with the opponent's attacks, and at best point out efficient tricks to use. We should not be trying to tell the players there's only a few ways to do the fight. Dual-boss battles: Just put their pictures next to each other. For phases, use separate boss boxes; the boss box needs to be more rounded, like on the FFwiki guides or the bradygames guides themselves. FM: Design a template like the canonend one that covers FM-only content, and another that covers original-only content. Order: Contents, Basics, Walkthrough per World. I don't think we need Appendixes (since our existing pages are already pretty much appendixes), and part of the whole "When you return with X" idea is that we won't have Ultima Weapon thrown in somewhere at the end. For example, in KH it would be part of the Traverse Town article. Bestiary: I forgot whose guides they are, but one of the gamefaqs writers always lists the enemies and treasures at the beginning of the world. We will be doing this per each room: A simple, rounded template, two columns, with a list of enemies and a list of treasures in the room will work. Colors: Honestly, ENX, yours is so bright that it physically hurts my eyes. However, Erry's is a bit bland. Can you guys try to reach a happy medium between the two? (And maybe not all the text has to be white). General coverage: The guides should walk you through each room, so that the player always knows what room they are supposed to be in. For anything where you have to find something not glaringly obvious, some screenshots would be helpful. We also need Erry's videos somewhere prominent on the page.

Eternal Nothingness XIII - Funny... This whole time, I've been telling myself I want to be stronger, more independent... But the second I let my heart do the talking... I find out how little I really know myself. And how much I miss them. TALK - All this time, I've been staring into the darkness... But... that doesn't mean I have to jump in. — 00:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC) My response to your words, Kryten: Death: So long as we don't use the bloody word or anything like "kill," ANYTHING should be fine, whether it is "depletes HP to zero," "destroy," or "eliminate" (terms that exist within the game and are used with their proper meanings/intentions). Strategy: Whether what you said was an accusation or just something to point out for the future, this is absolutely correct. Dual-boss Battles: Everything you said defeats the purpose of my mentioning the tabs idea. Two boss templates really makes a page unnecessarily long, and two images in one box REALLY screws up formatting/increases page length even further! Is there a way we could tab the images and the stats only? Like click "Clayton" in the Clayton/Stealth Sneak template to see Clayton's image and stats, and "Stealth Sneak" for the Stealth Sneak's. We'd then include the mutual strategy for both below. If there is obviously no relation between the boss and its second phase whatsoever, we obviously wouldn't do tabs... FM Content: Not sure what you mean by "canonend." Perhaps we could do something like the spoiler template, where you can completely skip FM content? Order: Yes, I agree with what you've said, though I feel for the purposes of the guide, linking just to the Wiki pages is a bit redundant. Why have the walkthroughs in the first place, when 3/4 of the articles' content is a walkthrough in and of itself? Also, I don't really like throwing a "when you return" section randomly into the world walkthroughs. KHII doesn't talk about defeating MCP on the first visit to Space Paranoids, for example... Bestiary: We are NOT GameFAQs. The only purpose in listing enemies at the beginning of a world page is to show what enemies appear in the world. You don't arrive in Agrabah and say "How much HP does the Fat Bandit have?" You just want to see what you encounter and where. Material such as stats is best organized separately in an enemy-devoted section of the guide. Aside from BBS (which was a huge disgrace as far as official guides go and is redundant with this), no official BradyGames guide lists enemy stats/attacks on the world walkthrough pages; they only do so in the back. Colors: I personally think you give me too little credit, Kryten. Mine looks A LOT better and closer to the "KH1 colors" than Erry's does in my opinion (KH1 uses BLUE, not royal blue or any other variant). But yes, it's entirely possible we can, with further discussion, reach a common ground we'd both be happy with. In terms of the templates themselves, I say we scrap the "WKH1HBoss" template and just do "WKH1Boss" template for the reasons I stated in my first message. EDIT (00:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC): I have updated my version of the boss template, and the colors should be less of an eyesore because I have converted a majority of the text from white to black. Now, however, it looks terrible. The only reason all the text was white in the first place was for the sake of VISIBILITY!!! You can view the most recent version of my template here

Chitalian8 Say... — Only by allowing strangers in can we find new ways to be ourselves. Life's little crossroads are often as simple as the pull of a trigger. — 00:30, 7 October 2011 (UTC) I'll make this short, I know I'm not covering everything. Pace: Agreed, we need to slow down a little. It's hard to spellcheck so many articles in so little time. It's better to do it one game at a time. Writing: My biggest pet peeve is the phrase "X item can be gotten", which seems to show up quite often. The word "Obtained" should suffice. Colors: I prefer Erry's, it's easier on the eyes. Walkthrough MoS: Agree with this, a draft needs to be written up.

Eternal Nothingness XIII - You have to be strong. Strength of heart will carry you through the hardest of trials. TALK - What I do, I do for friendship. — 00:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Let's forget the colors for now, and focus on all the other stuff I've listed. Erry and I, if he agrees to meet me on the IRC tomorrow afternoon, will find our "middle ground" color scheme and then show it to you all then to determine if it's good enough.

The Inexistent - All the world's a puzzle, and I the one who made it so... TALK - EVIL has come... at last... Well, seeing as I arrived late to the party because I couldn't edit well on my phone, I will do it now. Pace- I really don't care about the speed. In fact, I believe, if we are capable, we should keep up this pace, and then correct and rewrite it later (I was planning on doing that afterwards anyway). Encyclopedia- Why don't we just make our own version of the "journal"? Color schemes- Yeah, I like Erry's better. I find the other versions abrasive and obnoxiously bright, and their colors aren't entirely accurate to the game. The first one wiorks a lot better, and matches much more than the bright blue and black. I don't see how Erry's version could be considered "plain and bland". MoS- MOST DEFINITELY.

KrytenKoro - Pinocchio with his nose attached to the trigger of a rifle, which points at his face as he says, "I want to live!" TALK - ENX: Death: "depleted to 0" is an awful way to do it. It sounds...moronic. Sorry to be so frank. Dual-bosses: The tabs idea is not a good idea. In dual-boss battles, the bosses are fought together. It doesn't make sense to try and separate their information. If needed, design a separate boss template that fits two sets of stats and images in, but there should only be one strategy there. Phased bosses should either have separate tables, or we can add like a "Strategy2" parameter. These templates aren't supposed to be huge and go into a lot of information; we have the enemy articles already, and most of the info is not usable in the heat of battle. Honestly, the only important stats are the resistances. FM: Canonend is a template. It helps box in sections that need to be marked separate but still be inline. "Also, I don't really like throwing a "when you return" section randomly into the world walkthroughs. KHII doesn't talk about defeating MCP on the first visit to Space Paranoids, for example... " - The KHII Bradygames guide is the most slipshod pile of shit that has ever been released by that company. We are absolutely not freaking emulating them. Also, as I explained these sections, they would be collapsed the first time you visit the page. "Yes, I agree with what you've said, though I feel for the purposes of the guide, linking just to the Wiki pages is a bit redundant. Why have the walkthroughs in the first place, when 3/4 of the articles' content is a walkthrough in and of itself? " - which is why I said appendixes. We don't need to waste time copying and pasting the weapon and accessory infoboxes into the walkthrough space. Bestiary: I said not a dang thing about putting the stats in every page. The enemy templates should not show up at all. There should be a list of the enemies in the room, and a list of treasures in the room, possibly with a checkmark if you should have already gotten the chest. That's it. And there absolutely should not be an "enemy-devoted" section of the guide, or everything I did creating the Enemy template and revising the enemy pages was worthless. Colors: I was not criticizing you. I was notifying you that I seriously got a headache looking at the colors. They were too bright. They hurt my eyes. None of this is hyperbole. Also, the black made it worse. I was hoping for something that stood out against the blue and white more, like an orange. The walkthrough pages, if categorized at all, should be categorized by world and game. Honestly, the subpage feature should do most of that already.

SidVI - It's time to give me one hell of a show! TALK - Got it memorized? - 07:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC) *Pace: In terms of pacing, I agree with the idea for organizing groups to do certain sections of the walkthrough, since this isn't a single-person walkthrough. This organization should be done immediately, and we should work with one walkthrough at a time. Death: With the death thing, anything besides "kill" would work, but with using rational wording, like knocked out or defeated. Bosses: I agree with ENX in that each boss should have a tab if it is a dual-boss, with the strategy under it. If it is a different phase, then the boss box should have the tabs or have a new boss template. Also, only one walkthrough writer uses the rounded boss template on FFWiki, BlueHighwind. All other boxes that look similar to his are variants. We should deviate from this and use a combination of the boss boxes shown in ENX's sandbox (I prefer Erry's version). Most of ENX's ideas are good, and should be discussed to a conclusion.

Mechajin Walky Talky Page! :D — I fight for my friends! Nothing More, Nothing Less! Friendship is the most important thing you can have!! I'm sorry ENX, but your template is.. quite bluntly, horrid. it's FAR too bright. seriously. Anyway, as for the pace thing, I can see where you guys are coming from.. BUT. what about the people (Like Me) Who dislike, do not own, are no good at etc. KH1? we should be aloud to work on the KH2 walkthrough too, but as you guys said, slower than we have been. P.S: Kryten. Please don't try and murder me. I value my life very much. :3 Mechajin I fight for my friends!

Erry - Wretched SeeD TALK - -CESONIV SOCEW CESUL SOHTIF- + -FITHOS LUSEC WECOS VINOSEC- ~ 10:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC) I don't think the colors are bland, they were directly extracted from the front cover of the game, I made a separate version from the heart symbol of the game and this one from the cover of the game. The non-DI guides should be locked for now, they are going to need a heavy reformatting. Kryten, I have to disagree with you on there. The non-KH1 guides will need to be locked. We're just trying to get KH1 done right now and if we have all the information on the page then that means less work for everyone. We will only need to reformat the page, not add new information, look over to see if this treasure chest is there or not, etc. Also, I have no plans of doing walkthrough videos, at least not at this time, due to school and such.

UxieLover1994 Tiempo de morder de nuevo con el poder! El tema de hoy: su sorpresa! — 10:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Darn. And I was so looking forward to doing the walkthough for Space Paranoids. But rules are rules. I'll see about getting further infomation soon for the KH1 worlds. Also, I agree that we should avoid using death-related terms. But this can be a problem with the Underworld... EDIT: I started the KHII Walkthrough by starting the one for the Land of Dragons. If I knew that it was only one world at a time (which, for me, is far too slow for me to handle), I would have left them alone. Sorry for causing this controversy, guys.

Mechajin Walky Talky Page! :D — I fight for my friends! Nothing More, Nothing Less! Friendship is the most important thing you can have!! Controversy isn't the right term. And I'm in agreeance with you about one at a time being too slow. I wouldn't think the same way if it wasn't a community made walkthrough, mind. Mechajin I fight for my friends!

UxieLover1994 Cuando la vida te da las herramientas, a construir motos libración — 11:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Well, being slow is bad, especially for those who are inpatient. But rushing walkthroughs is worse. What's the choice?

Erry - Fight and Away TALK - It is a massive shit taken on the display and functionality of the site purely to draw in more advertising cash. ~ 11:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Being slow is not bad, what's bad is rushing walkthroughs. Like the Destiny Islands page, I rushed it and I forgot to add that there's a chest you can get. Had we not focused on that page, there wouldn't be a chest to get. There are more consequences from being quick than there are from being slow. Like ENX said Slow and steady wins the race.

17master - Hey, guys, check out my new camera! TALK - Oh wait, this isn't a camera... - {{{time}}} Underworld is an exception, death is a valid term there. Even Hades calls himself "I am the lord of the dead!". We can still avoid the use for the word though. Something like "Hades then summons Auron from the depths of the Underworld".

KrytenKoro - And when you see me standing there, you'll know you've got a friend with a rock, I mean a big-ass rock. TALK - Several things: A squared box simply doesn't look good. It looks like beginner coding/design. It looks hard, and uncaring. If we want the guides to look like they are something completed, something that invites the reader in, the boxes need to be more rounded, and have more complex designs. The non-DI articles simply need to be locked. We may have a lot of the text, a general "speaking walkthrough", but there is a huge amount of coding design and formatting that will be changed. If people are determined to keep editing the other articles, then it should be text-only: inserting templates now is only going to make it more painful when the templates get deleted. The DI article, for some bizarre reason, has a prominent spoiler warning right at the top of the page. This is all kinds of wrong. Seriously guys, we will not be starting fear about spoilers in these guides. Be responsible about what you cover, of course (don't go shouting "It was his SLED!" in the tips about fighting the Parasite Cage), but the guides should explain what is going on and why. Furthermore, there isn't a game in the series with a rock-solid world order, so using this template would become unworkable about two seconds in. Instead, we should simply have a single row template that has the world logo on the left and an aesthetically-pleasing link back to the Table of Contents on the right--basically, like the top of the page on the Bradygames guides.

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 20:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)   My two cents: Re: "kill"/"death" -- I personally like "defeat" and "knockout"/"KO" as alternatives. (Also, while I am against being so stuffy as to write "deplete your HP to zero", saying something like "If you don't manage to select "The End" quickly enough, Roxas will wipe out your HP in one shot" would be alright.) However this is in terms of gameplay. Hades is not "lord of the defeated", the Undead Pirates are not "neither alive nor KO'd", and so forth. Re: pace -- We definitely need a more concerted effort for these pages, instead of a "get them out! get them out!"-style strategy. I don't think we need to be incredibly strict about doing one world at a time, as long as there is a good amount of focus on the part of the editors, but restraint would be good. Re: tabs -- I think the better alternative would be to modify the template to handle multiple bosses at once than to have tabbed templates, although the images and stats would probably be better off tabbed, within the template. Re: FM-only/original-only -- I would suggest using colored boxes. I'm not sure if any sections would get long enough to require having them be collapsible. I like the order of pages, though I would like to take this opportunity to point out that we'll be needing someone with technical resources to fill out the gameplay-related pages, like stat growth. Re: bestiary -- Something simple, maybe. There's no point to just restating everything that's on a enemy's mainspace article. Re: MOS -- CERTAINLY YES. However, it'll probably be easier to write after we've satisfied ourselves on our first page or two. I'm actually going to modify my comment on pacing here: first we need to settle our walkthrough style on DI (and maybe DttH), and THEN we start filling out the rest of the worlds. ...I'm not sure how welcome this would be, but I was really impressed by Kingdom Hearts Ultimania's walkthrough of KHII, regarding their general thoroughness and ordering of sections, including gameplay. Obviously we're not doing the same thing, especially since we're including all of a world's episodes on one page—and because we're not doing a text file—but we might be able to take some cues from them.

17master - Hey, guys, check out my new camera! TALK - Oh wait, this isn't a camera... - {{{time}}} I was just thinking, should we list obtainable items on top of a World's walkthrough just like most walkthrough does?

KrytenKoro - "I'm the doctor, I'm the patient. Don't forget that - it's important! If you love me like I love me, everybody will be sorry." TALK - In the room you can first get them, the first time you can get them, with previously obtained items in that room being checked off.