Forum:The Names of Articles

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Eternal Nothingness XIII This is absurd... Then I shall make you see... That your hopes are nothing—nothing but a mere illusion! — 03:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC) So one of the topics discussed during today's Roundtable was the rule we were to adapt and utilize when naming our articles here on the Wiki. Right now, the Manual of Style (which is extremely outdated, but that's another story...) states the following (my commentary/explanations are in italics below each point): New articles should be named according to the subject's official name. If the official name of a subject has been changed in later episodes of Kingdom Hearts, please use the first name. However, redirects can be made using the later names. This refers to articles such as the Heartless in 358/2 Days that first appeared in Kingdom Hearts II. For instance, we still have an article called "Surveillance Robot," rather than "Watcher." The definite article (the) and indefinite articles (a/an) should be avoided in article titles except if they are used in an official title/name. For instance, we should have an article called "The Mayor" to inform readers on the guy from Halloween Town, not "Mayor." "The Prince" to describe the guy from Dwarf Woodlands, not "Prince." Even if the definite article feels pointless, it should still be used because it's what the games use. Likewise, character names are referred to the same way they are in the Kingdom Hearts series; for example, surnames of characters from existing works are usually dropped (e.g. Cloud instead of Cloud Strife, Mulan instead of Fa Mulan). Even if a character calls someone by his or her full name or by other names, only the one prominent in Kingodm Hearts should be used. "Beat," not "Daisukenojo Bito," "Leon," not "Squall Leonhart," "Will Turner," not "William Turner, Jr.", "Dr. Jumba," not "Jumba Jookiba," and "Flynn," not "Kevin Flynn." Now, my personal opinion has technically already been stated by both the rules in the MoS and my commentary on those rules, as shown above. I feel that we should always name our articles in accordance with what the games use; in the case of characters and such, we should use what the Journal uses. For characters who appear in multiple games, sometimes experiencing a minor change in name (Smee vs. Mr. Smee), the name used in the Journal of the game that served as that character's FIRST APPEARANCE should be used, in my opinion. If a character has a title, such as Master Eraqus, the title of that character's article should include it ONLY IF THE JOURNAL DOES ("Master Eraqus," not "Eraqus"). In the end, this is all about recognizability, which is why I am not against keeping "Mickey Mouse" instead of "The King" or "King Mickey." As a general rule of thumb, cutscenes should not be a valid source for article titles. Just because Yuffie calls Leon "Squall" at one point does not mean his article should be titled "Squall Leonhart," even though this is (and everyone knows it is) his full name. In my opinion, we should be thinking about what is best for our readers, not what we think is best as a community. If I were just the average Joe who loved Kingdom Hearts but had never heard of The World Ends With You, not once would I think of searching for "Daisukenojo Bito" if I wanted to read about a character called "Beat." I understand there are redirects and such, but because we are a Kingdom Hearts Wiki, Kingdom Hearts material takes precedence over stuff that is "common knowledge" or "just plain true." Again, this is why we have "Mulan," not "Fa Mulan." If a character has a different name other than the one in the title, I feel like we should either make note of this in the article header ("Beat, full name Daisukenojo Bito, is a character who appears in Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance), or we should, perhaps, include this alternate name in the character's origin section (Daisukenojo Bito is a character who originally appeared in the Square Enix video game franchise The World Ends With You, etc.). It was requested that I create this forum based on what was discussed during the Roundtable; it was decided a forum was the best place to continue this discussion. I have used this message to also state my opinion on this matter. What does everyone else think we should do? Let's either agree to actually adhere to what the MoS says or decide on a new, concrete rule together based on what the MAJORITY feels is right, and abide by that. What I said about using "Master Eraqus" and not "Eraqus," thus "Master Xehanort" and not "Xehanort," creates a problem: what do we do when two characters who logic says are the same are treated as separate entities by the Journal, which I'd like to adhere to when naming our articles (Master Xehanort vs. Young Xehanort)? This is a separate discussion for another day, but I just thought I would make mention of it before I forget...

I like what we have so far with the manual of style [MoS]. I'm also liking the whole "Master Eraqus" > "Eraqus;" "Mickey Mouse" > "The King"/"King Mickey." What specific articles are we having a problem with? Are they just the characters from KH3D? Xion4ever Who am I? — 04:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Eternal Nothingness XIII The fun is in not knowing, isn't it? What is the point of betting on something if you already know the outcome? — 04:48, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I'd say that whatever we decide to implement here should apply to all articles, not just the ones from KH3D...

TheSilentHero Prepare yourself! — 13:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC) You forgot to mention we use the most recurring name for things that have different names in the series. Only when two names are used the same number of times, the first name is used.

Eternal Nothingness XIII Kind of weird that we can feel anything at all. Without having hearts to feel with. Nowhere in the Manual of Style does it state that, but, um, ok?

TheSilentHero — 13:12, 3 January 2015 (UTC) KO! We decided this yesterday at the RT, didn't we?

Eternal Nothingness XIII Why is it that you always have to glare at me like that? — 13:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC) That was the general direction everyone seemed to be going in, but it was not a final decision. For now, until and unless it is updated, the Manual of Style takes precedence here. That "stable" rule took us right back to the standard naming issue we started with, anyways. We still have more to discuss before we can implement that.

TheFifteenthMember Yes. You're creepy. I can't say we'll miss you while you're gone, so it'd be best if you did go. We all win that way. — TheFifteenthMember 15:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC) The MoS is not an immovable format set in stone. If we deem it unsatisfactory, we are certainly allowed to change and improve it, which is what we are doing here. Hence, I propose that we do include the majority rule. I disagree with using the oldest name, regardless of what has been released after. If a subject has one name in an old game and the name was changed for all other games, it would be odd if we titled the article the first name, which only appeared once, when the other name was used for multiple games. Also, just a note, "Fa Mulan" is KH-canon and is found in the journal and cutscenes.

Eternal Nothingness XIII Tell me... Tell me why he picked you! — 17:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I'm well aware of that note. But it's still not correct to title the article "Fa Mulan." That said, I'm also aware that the Manual of Style is not set in stone. Like I've said several times, it's EXTREMELY outdated. I agree it makes no sense to call Mr. Smee "Mr. Smee" if he's been just "Smee" in every other game he's appeared in since. Thus I'd like to propose the following: If a character has experienced a change of name and that changed name appears in more titles than the original, we name him or her here based on that more frequently used name. If a character has only had one appearance or the above does not apply (meaning his or her name has been consistent throughout the series), no matter what, we title our pages based upon what characters are called IN THE JOURNAL. Not in the Story section, Album section, or anything else. Only the entry ABOUT THAT CHARACTER (meaning just because "Fa Mulan" is used in KH, unless her entry is titled "Fa Mulan," we will NOT have an article called "Fa Mulan" on the Wiki. That would be redirected to "Mulan").

TheFifteenthMember Ignoring how these caterpillars uttered what they're trying to say, I do agree. — TheFifteenthMember 17:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Yes, agreed. "Fa Mulan" still does need to be mentioned in the lead (which goes for all full names).

Eternal Nothingness XIII Why did the Keyblade choose me? I have to know. — 19:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I will quote one of my earlier stated opinions on this matter: "If a character has a different name other than the one in the title, I feel like we should either make note of this in the article header ("Beat, full name Daisukenojo Bito, is a character who appears in Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance), or we should, perhaps, include this alternate name in the character's origin section (Daisukenojo Bito is a character who originally appeared in the Square Enix video game franchise The World Ends With You, etc.)."

Yes, and we must do the former option. We can't only have the full name in the origin section, if it is within KH canon. TheFifteenthMember 19:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. - Eternal Nothingness XIII 20:12, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

In my experience, unless we're actually keeping strict track of how many times each name appears, "most common name" is prone to argumentation, especially for ties or minor names. I would recommend instead using the most recent name -- including remakes in that, meaning KH II.5 should be the most recent source of names."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 14:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Especially since KH1 has some pretty strange names, like the Mystery Goo, for example. Besides, due to HD2.5, none of the Heartless that got renamed in Days are the most recent. TheSilentHero 17:51, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Eternal Nothingness XIII Organization XIII has no further use for you... Just look there. Our Kingdom Hearts... Thanks to you, we've collected countless hearts... Can you hear their euphoria? — 13:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC) So I once again came across "Daisukenojo Bito" while looking for random pages to revise/edit. It reminded me of this forum. Could we please make a final decision (through a vote or other means) on how we should name our articles, and then update the MoS and the articles themselves to reflect this?

KrytenKoro - You should have figured out whether bodies age without their hearts, Nomura. TALK - I propose, as I've proposed before: Full canon name (revised as necessary by latest translation) as article title, excluding titles (unless they are used in the journals as a common name, as with the emperor or Doctor Finkelstein) Redirects for every other name or title used to that article With that metric, "Daisukenojo Bito" would remain "Daisukenojo Bito", with appropriate redirects.

So, under that proposal, is it "Fa Mulan"? --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 17:23, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and the reason why I think it's critical to not just use the "journal name" is because of stuff like Jack Sparrow/Jack Skellington, or The King/Mickey Mouse. Dropping titles or nicknames is acceptable because of pile-up, but if we have an official given and family name, it only saves us trouble in the long run to use both. Beat is an edge case where the alternate name wouldn't still be in the title (Leon is in Leonhart, Mulan is in Fa Mulan, etc.), and a redirect should be sufficient to satisfy that -- if absolutely necessary for ease of readership, we could move the article to "Daisukenojo 'Beat' Bito", but in my opinion that would open the door to throwing every other alternate name into a long "alias" pile-up in the article title. If we're okay with relaxing the standards on that one page, I'm okay with it, but I would strongly prefer all other articles to use the 'legal' names."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 18:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I have a personal preference for the journal names, but this is fine. My one wish is to stress the need to update this policy in the MoS accordingly, if necessary. - Eternal Nothingness XIII 21:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)