Category talk:Entelechy

Seriously?

We are using the term Somebody? That is terrible.--XYZ. 02:49, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a canon alternative? Because Axel uses this in CoM specifically to refer to a complete person.Glorious CHAOS! 03:37, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Human, for one. But that is only in regards to human characters. I don't ever remember Somebody being used as the canon term for a complete being. Within the series there are times where the word nobody was used without a capitol n, Zexion really makes it clear. So Axel uses somebody with a capitol s?--XYZ. 03:43, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

As I explained earlier, Axel says, "Nobodies can never be Somebodies", specifically referring to a complete being. As I recall, it was Riku Replica talking about not having a heart. Maybe Namine.

As you said, "Human" isn't fully applicable. It's even wrong on the basic issue, since Axel and Ansem, SoD are still humans - they're just also a Nobody and a Heartless.

As of now, "Somebody" is the only term that has been used within the series to refer to a being that has its original heart, body, and soul. If you can find any other term, please list it.Glorious CHAOS! 03:54, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

The line is "We Nobodies can never hope to be somebodies" ("Nobodies can't be somebodies" in the original COM), which Axel says to Namine when Sora reaches the 9th floor. Since "somebodies" is lowercase, I figure he means that Nobodies can't hope to have a meaningful existence, rather than saying Nobodies can't hope to become complete beings. This is the only time anyone says the word, and it seems from the way it's used that it wasn't intended to be an actual term. However, the point remains that we have no good alternative to "Somebodies", unless we just say "complete beings" (which I would totally be up for). --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 08:16, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

When is "complete being" used?Glorious CHAOS! 15:32, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

ALSO:

• Roxas, Days: "If I had a heart...would that make me somebody?"
• Larxene, CoM: "Rewrite Sora's heart, and you can be somebody, not just the shadow of somebody."
• Larxene, ReCoM: "Just do a good job rewriting Sora's heart. Then you can actually be somebody---and no longer just Kairi's shadow."
• Axel, ReCoM: "Does it hurt, Naminé? Watching your two childhood friends fight all because of you? You have my sympathies. From the heart. But don't waste your time. We Nobodies can never hope to be somebodies."

I still can't find "complete being" or any variation in the scripts.Glorious CHAOS! 15:42, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

while it does seem to be an extreeeeeeeeemel generic term, it is unfortunately the only one we have at the moment.--ShadowsTwilight 15:45, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

What about the Japanese scripts? Do they use the term "somebody"? --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 16:50, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have access to the Japanese scripts, sorry.Glorious CHAOS! 19:23, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

I've rewatched the scene with Axel in Japanese, and apparently he doesn't even say the term "Nobody", let alone "Somebody". Don't know enough Japanese to know exactly what it says, though. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 20:11, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

If you provide me a link, I can try to translate it.Glorious CHAOS! 20:57, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Here you go. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 22:51, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Yes well Larxene also calls Sora heartless when he can't remember Naminé and then calls him the heartless hero after they fight, but this does not mean that Sora is literally a Heartless. It is a true ambiguous duality, Heartless and Nobodies, but the difference is whether or not the terms are capitalized.--XYZ. 00:38, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

...Sora is a Heartless during CoM. That's why he needs to reunite with Roxas in KHII.Glorious CHAOS! 00:40, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Sora is a Heartless for five minutes before Kairi creates a vessel of light for his heart to reside in. Although he is less than human, he his not a Heartless.--XYZ. 00:45, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

He's still a Heartless, as much as Ansem SoD. Both of them have retrieved their human forms, but by nature, they only have their heart. That makes them a Heartless.Glorious CHAOS! 06:45, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ansem Seeker of Darkness was not able to create a human form until after he possessed Riku and hijacked Riku's body. Before that he appeared as an amorphous, cloak.--ΧƳƵach. 06:52, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

1) Read the Ansem Reports again, 2) Even with that interpretation, he is still a Heartless in that form. The games are very clear on this - the characters even remark on it in CoM.Glorious CHAOS! 22:49, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Did you check the scenes? The other scenes should be on the same channel, too. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 02:16, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Sora would not have been able to use the Keyblade if he were a Heartless, end of discussion.--ΧƳƵach. 21:55, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

...based on what? Ansem wielded the Keyblade as Riku, and Roxas wielded the Keyblade as a Nobody. Nomura has never said that Heartless can't wield it - if anything, he's said that Nobodies shouldn't be able to wield it, since they don't have a heart.Glorious CHAOS! 22:01, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Because a Heart alone cannot summon a Keyblade, there has to be a vessel for the heart to reside in. Riku can use the Keybalde because Terra performed the Inheritance Ceremony on him, the only influence that Xehanort's Heartless had was what Keybalde Riku used. When Riku's heart was stronger than Sora's, Riku stole the Kingdom Key, and after he loses it he uses a Keyblade that Xehanort's Heartless created. And Roxas can wield the Keyblade because:

• He was willingly created.

• He's the Nobody of a Keyblade Wielder.

• He coexists with his original self.

• He is harboring Ventus' heart.

Roxas is a Special Nobody, Naminé, Axel and Riku all know it.

Not to mention Sora was not able to use the Keyblade as a Heartless and Sora cannot use the Keyblade while in Anti Form, not necessarily a Heartless, but the closest Sora can get to being a Heartless.--ΧƳƵach. 22:21, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

"Concerning the conditions to wield one, at this stage, "Those with strong hearts" is the only obvious one."

"To use a keyblade you must have been chosen to inherit as well as been chosen by the keyblade itself. "

Riku, with Ansem in him, is still considered a Heartless, because Riku's heart was expelled. They have a cutscene showing that, as well. The Lingering Sentiment, which does not seem to have a heart, can also wield a Keyblade.

"The Keyblade that Roxas used and the thing that Sora once lost in Castle Oblivion are the same thing. Furthermore, these two both used the Keyblade at the same time. This is can be explained by the relationship between Roxas and Sora. Thus, that both can wield two Keyblades in fact has an important meaning. This is also related to Xehanort's memories, but this point can't be touched on just yet."

"He was willingly created" and "He coexists with his original self" have almost nothing to do with it, and the scripts make it exceedingly clear that a Nobody with a Keyblade is almost a miracle.

"Concerning Sora's Anti Form, you could think that the reason is related to his changing into a Heartless once before. In fact, beyond Sora's Nobody, it is natural to assume that Sora is influenced by the Heartless"

"Moreover, when Sora himself was changed into a heartless he was purified by Kairi. In order for Sora to be revived without following the essential course, the special way Roxas and Naminé were born from these types, special Nobodies ended up being left behind. Still, I get the feeling from the story so far that Xemnas might also be a special Nobody."

So, again, while Sora regained his light and body shape, he is still, by nature, a Heartless, until the start of KHII.

"Xehanort most certainly got rid of his heart, and at that time it's assumed a Nobody was born. The means of obtaining their goal is different due to the nature of Heartless and Nobodies. However. I think for both of them the desire "to become a complete existence" is the same. This time the new mysterious keyword "Xehanort's memories" is left behind."

"One year after BbS, Apprentice Xehanort was separated into his Heartless (Ansem Seeker of Darkness) and his Nobody (Xemnas). The former took actions that were more like Master Xehanort, while the latter has said things that seem more like Terra, so how were Terra and Master Xehanort’s hearts and wills separated, and what sort of influences do they have over each?"

So Ansem, even in his human form with Riku's body, is a Heartless.

The only things Nomura has ever stressed about wielding a Keyblade are:

1. Strong heart
2. Performed inheritance ceremony

That's it. The Lingering Sentiment, a remnant of Terra, is able to wield its former Keyblade without a real heart, and Roxas, a Nobody of Sora who only has a hidden heart, and not quite the correct one, is able to wield its former Keyblade. Vanitas's Sentiment, an apparent Unversed, is also able to wield a Keyblade, without having anywhere for a heart to have come from, and with barely a grip on existence. From what we've been told, there's no reason to assume that a Heartless remnant, who is in fact the heart itself, would be unable to wield a Keyblade.Glorious CHAOS! 22:50, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sora cannot be a Heartless if he is residing inside of a body of light that Kairi created. I totally agree that it is not his body and he is far from complete, but he is not a Heartless. And the Lingering Sentiment and Vanitas' Sentiment are Absent Silhouettes, they are the emotions left behind after someone has faded away, taking form by possessing a physical object. With the Organization Silhouettes, it was their weapons, Terra left his imprint in his armor and Keyblade and Vanitas appears to have done the same. And think about what the Keyblade is, it's the ultimate bane of the Heartless. It is the only weapon that they fear because it's the only weapon that can release them. Would it make sense for a Heartless to be able to wield a Keyblade?--ΧƳƵach. 23:04, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Why would that stop him from being a Heartless? How has the games or Nomura defined Heartless? Simply as the hearts taken by Heartless. Ansem took Riku's body and was still a Heartless.

"Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless."

I grant you that in-game, DiZ and a few other characters no longer define Sora as a Heartless, because he has human form. However, his nature (a heart without body or soul) has only yet been categorized as "Heartless", and Nomura's interviews, barring translation errors, say that he has a strong overlap with the Heartless.

As for the Sentiment's, yes, that was my point with them. Even though they lack what you had described, the fact that they are remnants of a Keyblade wielder lets them wield the Keyblade. Vanitas could even fit here, since his inheritance stemmed from Ventus.

According to the HBRC, the Heartless fear the Keyblade. But still, we see AntiSora wielding a shadow-version of one. It's also not the only weapon effective against them, it's just the only one that brings them peace (like Zanpaktou, really). The Keyblade is one of the few weapons effective against Nobodies, too, and it is still used by Roxas.

All in all, I think there is enough evidence to think that when Larxene called Sora "heartless", she was in fact calling him the eldritch horror, and not just "cold", "unfeeling", "cruel", or one of the many other terms that she could have used that mean the same thing.

I finally had a chance to go over the scene. Axel uses the word somebody (誰, dare), he says:

• "We who are not even somebody cannot become somebody." (誰でもない俺たちは誰にもなれない, Dare demo nai ore-tachi wa dare nimo narenai)

So, it basically says the same thing, it just uses the Japanese word instead of "So-mubodi-".Glorious CHAOS! 23:22, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

So he wasn't using "somebody" as a term. It also means the original COM text is more correct than ReCOM, since ReCOM capitalized "Nobodies". I can check the ReCOM scenes with Larxene, in case she used a term, but I'd lay money that she didn't.

Which seems to make "Somebody" a fan term... Ugh. Now what? --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 02:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I get wanting to use the official term. But I honestly don't understand why everyone is reacting in disgust to the term "Somebody". It's no less ridiculous than "Heartless", "Nobody", and "Unversed".Glorious CHAOS! 05:01, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA a) it sounds much more ridiculous b) it sounds extra crappy because it is a direct acronym of only one of above-mentioned entities

...Uh, "acronym"? In what way? --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 05:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry i meant antonym

KrytenKoro - Most bears were content to live their lives, mauling and eating one, maybe two humans at most. "Mass-murder," as the bears always said, "is for the sharks." But not Barry. Barry was different. He knew that one day, he would kill ALL of the humans. This is the inspiring, tear-jerking story of one bear and the dream he dared to dream. TALK - How is "Unversed" a less ridiculous thing to call somebody?

I don't know. Servusend is a way though, that doesn't make sense though...[Ѧüя◎ґ]

All of the characters mentioned on the page are technically Denizens of the Realm of Light. Perhaps the article could be changed to that.--ΧƳƵach. 04:12, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

What, even Anti-Riku and Lingering Sentiment? Or Sephiroth? What about Unversed or Mechanisms?Glorious CHAOS! 05:01, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Riku does not exist in the universe canon, only as a replacemt for Riku in mission mode. The Lingering Sentiment is an Absent Silhouette of Terra, it can go wherever the others are. KH canon Sephiroth is a part of Cloud. Why would any of the Unversed be in this category? Break the page into two sections:

Denizens of the Realm of Light

and

Disney Villains/ World Enemies

This would appear to be the most appropriate.--ΧƳƵach. 05:45, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Why? Unlike "Heartless" and "Nobody" and "Unversed", those don't have anything to do with an enemy's nature. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 05:50, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

I dunno. I felt like KrytenKoro was pointing out the oddity of having villains on a page called Denizens of the Realm of Light. I was just making a suggestion as to not confuse people reading the page. That is if we are to change the name.--ΧƳƵach. 06:05, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Leave it the same. Right now there's no other word with the same meaning, i.e. a being w/ a heart, body, and soul. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 13:05, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

What I meant by mentioning Unversed is that they are also Denizens of the Realm of Light. Believe me, I understand you not wanting to use this term, but until we get something with the same meaning, this is what we need to use.Glorious CHAOS! 17:03, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

But that is what a Denizen of the Realm of light is. Anything can reside in the Realm, but to truly be a Denizen, to tryuly belong there, you must be a complete being. In Nomura words, the Unversed are dark beings that feed on negative emotions and are the opposite of human life. Vanitas is a human with a heart of pure darkness and therefore cannot belong to the Realm of Light. That makes Vanitas a human from the Realm of Darkness, the exact opposite of a human. The Unversed are an extension of Vanitas which makes them of the Dark Realm as well. --ΧƳƵach. 18:48, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

You're going pretty deep into speculation again. As far as I know, Vanitas has never said to be a being of the Dark Realm, and Nomura has never said that only complete beings are denizens of the Realm of Light.Glorious CHAOS! 19:14, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

I guess I was not clear enough, but I was only using Nomura's words in regards to the Unversed. And this is something that Nomura wouldn't really have to say.

The Heartless and the Unversed are Beings of the Realm of Darkness.

The Nobodies are born in the Realm of In Between, but are destined to fade away into the Realm of Nothingness.

So what is left over? All of the Square, Disney and original characters introduced in the series. The Denizens of the Realm of Light.--ΧƳƵach. 19:24, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Purely speculation. Never mind the fact that the Unversed originated in the realm of light, you have no idea what lives in the realm of darkness besides Heartless. For all you know some kind of humans live there too. The different kinds of beings can not be defined by where they live. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 00:03, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Being"?

I trawled the scripts for instances of "being" again, and I did find that Ansem, in the English Secret Reports, does call Nobodies "non-beings". However, he immediately calls Roxas and Namine beings, and calls Heartless "beings of darkness".

Someone told me that Nomura used "complete being" somewhere, but I'll be buggered if I can figure out where. Does anyone know of an interview where he used that term?Glorious CHAOS! 08:40, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Probably one of the ones talking about Braig, though I don't know where to find them. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 17:47, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Idea

If we can't find an official name, and people absolutely revolt against "Somebody", I suggest Entelechy.

1. It sounds awesome.
2. It's a philosophical concept with a long and worthy history.
3. It absolutely fits this usage.
4. It's used in Digimon to refer to Calumon, which will make me laugh whenever I hear Riku described as one.

Glorious CHAOS! 00:17, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

If we're going to use an unofficial term after all, why not just use "complete being"?LapisLazuliScarab03:54, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. We don't have any official terms, so the best option would be to use an accurate description, i.e. "Complete being". --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 04:12, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA as cool as "Entelechy" sounds, i too vote for "Complete Being"

Dudes, please, if we already have beings called "Nobodies", what's wrong with "Somebodies"? Could someone EXPLAIN what's so "ridiculous" and "crappy" about it? Besides, there are already creatures called "Unversed". THAT'S NOT EVEN A REAL WORD. Stop being such Douchey McNitpick's over Somebodies and either accept it or give VALID REASONS why it sucks. --84.249.211.221 20:50, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA because, as i stated above, the fact that someboy is a direct antonym of Nobody makes it sound completely generic and fan-made, while others like complete being at least could sound official

The problem, Anon, is that THE REST ARE OFFICIAL TERMS, and we have a general policy on this wiki of NOT MAKING UP STUFF, including terms. THAT is why "Somebodies" sucks. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 21:19, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

I think Complete Being doesn't cover all entities in the Somebody category (Ice Colossus for example), it's more like a descriptive term for the former incarnations of the Nobodies. My opinion is still that we should use "Other" for categorization. It's universal, it's short and we could easily split other groups off if we get more official terms. --ShardofTruth 21:47, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

What do we fill in for the boss's "type", then? And how do we categorize it?(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 21:52, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT:

Well, as I think we discussed elsewhere, we already need to have a number of divisions in the "Other" category, to cover in addition to "complete beings": mechanical and magical entities, obstacles, remnants, and anyone else I've forgotten.

We really should sit down and sort this out once and for all, already, it's getting old and painfully annoying. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 21:54, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA i'm still in favor of categorizing them by origin(e.g. final fantasy boss, kingdom hearts boss, heartless boss, etc.) at least with those we have something official and it gets rid of the misc. category that 'somebody' has become

Except we're trying to categorize by nature, not by creative origin. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 22:03, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

And look how well that's turning out --ShadowsTwilight 22:09, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

In that it's not the total crapshoot that "FF/KH/D boss" would be? Quite well, I'd say. Especially since if you used "Disney boss", you'd have to deal with Spirit of the Magic Mirror, Scar's Ghost, Jafar's Shadow, Hostile Program, The Experiment, etc.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 22:34, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Magic mirror is an unversed, jafar's shadow and scar's ghost, while resembling disney characters originated from kh, and the hostile program and experiment are completely exclusive kingdom hearts bosses. voila. better than listing all of the above (excluding the magic mirror) plus the LS, Unknown, anitriku, etc. as 'somebodies' just because they don't fit under any other category--ShadowsTwilight 22:42, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Erry - Let me think about it. TALK - Scherzo Di Notte ~ {{{time}}} I am actually fine with the term "Somebody" because of the fact that it is an antonym of "Nobody" which reflects the differences between the two. One cannot feel or wield a Keyblade, the other can. And regardless of sounding fan-made, it still applies in case of literacy and meaning because it is an antonym of "Nobody".

And you completely missed the point, ST. The Magic Mirror would ALSO be a Disney Boss, BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN DISNEY CHARACTER. Same with Scar's Ghost, Jafar's Shadow, and The Experiment (each of which is based 100% on a Disney character). If you're trying to find all the bosses that are not Heartless, Unversed, or Nobodies, searching based on material of origin would have too much overlap, and would be time-consuming. Comparing "Disney Characters" to "Heartless" is apples to oranges, and frankly, it's a bad suggestion.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:54, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

then list the ghost, shadow as a disney character, whatever, i could care less. the point is that there is a lot less mess with origin-categorization then "species" categorization, not to mention more accurate. for example, the Experiment is listed as a Somebody, which im sure most would agree is a being with a soul, heart, and body, except Finklestein stated point-blank that the experiment did not have a heart, so it obviously isn't a somebody, but it isnt the other 3 either. while im on the subject, what disney character is the experiment based off of, might i ask? --ShadowsTwilight 00:06, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was inexact about that. It's based off of props from that movie.

The point is is that DISNEY/FF/KH BOSS IS NOT A PARALLEL CATEGORY TO HEARTLESS/UNVERSED/NOBODY/COMPLETE. We already DO list them as Disney characters, but that's where they are FROM, not what they ARE. I AM CAPITALIZING WORDS FOR EMPHASIS.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 00:14, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

ok, so my idea is out, but the problem is that the Heartless/Unversed/Nobody/Complete system does not work, simply because a great deal of those listed as Complete are there because they don't fit under anything else, which, no offense, is rather sloppy and isn't a proper way to use that category --ShadowsTwilight 00:29, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

There's a few things that should be categorized under "Mechanism", and a few that should be categorized under "Manifestation". That's about it.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 02:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

You forgot 'unknown' for the things we really don't know what they are. admittedly uknown bbs is the only that comes to mind, but that doesn't make it any less neccessary. seriously though, if you have this solution, why are we not using it?--ShadowsTwilight 03:07, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Because people haven't been adding it. No one's stopping them. I already went through all of the damn effort coding the Enemy template on my own, it's up to others to actually implement the enemy types.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 03:45, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough --ShadowsTwilight 03:47, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Alrighty...

Falcos - Ah, yes. Ventus. TALK - Tell me something, has he learned to put up a decent fight yet? I have combed the games carefully, and there IS a canon alternative to "Somebody". To quote Roxas: "You make a good Other." Now, I know that people probably aren't going to accept this, but I was challenged to find a canon alternative to "Somebody", and now I have. Other. Used by a Nobody to refer to a "Somebody".

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA when Roxas says Other, do the subtitles capitalize it?

Falcos - Ah, yes. Ventus. TALK - Tell me something, has he learned to put up a decent fight yet? I believe so, but I shall check in a second.

ShadowsTwilight - He's leaving you behind, and when you catch up, he'll be a different person TALK - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA cuz if it is its indisputedly the title, if it's not there are plenty more times the term Somebody is used than this one instance of Other