Talk:Dark Riku

Needs a page

Since Dark Riku is confirmed to be a separate character for Kingdom Hearts III the redirect to Dark Mode needs to be removed so a page can be set up. -Adv193 (talk) 22:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Should Dream Drop Distance count

Since the game revealed that the original Riku Replica's heart had been with Riku's the entire time should anyone consider that it was Dark Riku, and not Riku Replica who appeared in Prankster's Paradise in Dream Drop Distance. -Adv193 (talk) 15:47, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Does it make sense, timeline wise? It's my understanding that Vexen was not brought back until after DDD, so this Riku replica wasn't made yet. That would also make Demyx one of the members in the Round Room, and the Riku we see in Monstro a product of the dream? Also, didn't the Riku Replica say he joined Riku after wandering the Realm of Darkness? Joveus (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Not that I am disagreeing, but for argument's sake I would point out that Ienzo states that Even went missing shortly after Lea left Radiant Garden (so when he went to Disney Castle and helped Mickey save Minnie from Pete and Maleficent). After this point and up until part way through KHIII, Dilan and Aeleus had been turning Radiant Garden upside-down looking for Even. Also for argument's sake, Demyx doesn't appear and make mention of being benched due to the incorporation of the Replicas until after Arendelle in KHIII, so it's really anyone's guess. Demyx, though, would definitely be among the twelve who appeared in KHDDD. (Levi657 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2019 (UTC))

In KHDDD Riku says that the cloaked Riku in Prankster's Paradise was his "dark side" and that now he was "facing himself" rather than Ansem or Riku Replica. In KH3 it's thought by Riku (and other characters) that Dark Riku is the evil him from the past. I think it's pretty clear from Riku's words in the two games that the cloaked Riku in DDD was Dark Riku. --Vanitas (talk) 22:47, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Except that Riku was completely and totally unaware that Xehanort was working to create another Organization and so was only speaking in a metaphorical sense rather than a literal one. Also, in KH3, Riku made no mention of the him that he saw in Monstro. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Sora didn't mention seeing Vanitas in Cloches, either. The callback seems pretty blatant -- he thinks its him from Hollow Bastion in Monstro, and then they all continue to think so until the good Riku Replica says "no, idiots, it's me"."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 13:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Sora does actually mention having seen Vanitas in Cloches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJsgZyLWSro 0:24 - JTD95 (talk) 13:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh, so he does. Still, even if Riku thought it was just a vision, it clearly leaves through a corridor of darkness, and it's wearing the cloak same as KH3 Dark Riku. I think the parallel is obvious (and once again, I bring up my argument that this was always meant to be Riku Replica, based on what Riku mentions afterward, and getting the KH CoM memento parallel to how Vanitas gave the KH BbS memento). I suppose we could wait for the ultimania, but...we spend KH3D being introduced to new members of the Org, this guy shows up and acts like a new member of the org, and then in KH3 lo and behold someone who looks exactly like this guy (with yellow eyes) shows up as a member of the org."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 13:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I guess I'm just confused on the timeline. In KH3 it seems like Vexen only just completed his new replicas, giving the organization its final two members. We see Even in DDD and he's unconscious, so he can't have joined the Org and created the replicas, right? But then at the same time all the bodies of the time-travelling Xehanorts are implied in 3 to be replica bodies, but they also appeared in DDD, so if Vexen was still Even, how did we interact with Ansem SoD and Xemnas at all? And if Even wasn't Vexen yet, and Xion and who were the 12 Organization members that appeared in TWTNW in DDD? Light

Roxas 13:54, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

That is a fair point, yeah. Since it's just the hearts that are time-travelling, maybe they upgraded to new replica bodies after KH3D? (I mean, the real answer is that SE wanted to shoehorn a traitor into the org and had to figure out how to get Vexen in there, and continuously forget to keep a series bible and so don't keep track of this shit...)"We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 14:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

When Riku sees Dark Riku at the graveyard he exclaims "You!" in a manner indicating that he had seen him before, and since this was their first meeting in KHIII he could only recognize him from DDD. --Vanitas (talk) 23:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Not Riku Replica

Why are we claiming that this is a separate character from Riku Replica? My understanding was that it was Riku Replica, just from the period that he was brainwashed."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 16:21, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

I am confused by this, as well. The game goes to great lengths to make us believe this is Riku from when Ansem possessed him, or rather, his heart inside a replica's body. Then the scene in Keyblade Graveyard takes place, in which we are supposed to think this is another version of the Riku Replica inside Riku's heart (from KHCoM). Even after this, the game still calls this guy "Dark Riku" and says nothing to suggest it is the Riku Replica. Only the "possessed Riku" stuff remains... - Eternal Nothingness XIII 16:27, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

For time-traveling they need a piece of Xehanort's heart, because Xehanort got time travel powers. Riku Replica doesn't have Xehanort's heart in him, so it would make more sense to be Riku from when Ansem possessed him. The game is pretty vague about this, though. Hopefully the Ultimania will provide a solid answer. TheSilent Hero 18:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to back up KrystenKoro. This is not Riku from when Ansem possessed him at all. This is a time travelling Riku Replica from when he was still brainwashed. First of all, the scene when Dark Riku is defeated is very clear. Riku Replica says clearly that Dark Riku is him, and not Riku-Ansem (also backed up by the fact that Dark Riku goes full "I'm the real one, not you" to Riku, just like Riku Replica did). As for the rest, Dark Riku is thought to be Riku-Ansem by Sora, which is normal (let's not forget that Sora do not remember the events of COM, so he can't remember Riku Replica and think about him); and by Mickey & Riku before Yen Sid's arrival (they prolly thought Dark Riku being Riku-Ansem is the most obvious choice?). For the time-traveling part, let's not forget that in DDD, it was proven that Young Xehanort was the one who went back in time to retrive all the other Xehanort, before turning them into vessel for Master Xehanort. The same prolly happened there. Lady Junky (talk) 09:10, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Someone did comparisons of the EN and JP dialogue here, with the implication being (but not confirmed, so best to keep it off the page for now) that this is essentially the “dark” half of Riku Replica, with the one seen talking to Riku occasionally being the “light” half (kinda similar to a Ventus/Vanitas situation). Ultima Spark (talk)

10:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with the idea that this isn't Dark Riku, it's the Replica. He mutters "I'm the real one..." when you beat him which was the replica's line, then the replica inside Riku (the good one) says that "it's me." Time travel doesn't even need to happen because the Replica faded to darkness and we've seen instances when that didn't count as death before.

In either case we probably do need to wait until we get more info, though I'd also be up for changing this to the Replica page based just on the quotes upon his defeat. Whatever works. Light Roxas 00:07, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

We need to wait. Regardless of the what the dialogue suggests, the Journal and other aspects of the game do not support this. Ultimania is our go-to source, and that comes out in a couple weeks. - Eternal Nothingness XIII 00:10, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The San Fransokyo and Keyblade Graveyard story sections of the journal refer to Dark Riku as being a replica (rather than a time-traveling Riku), and also as being a separate entity from Riku Replica (in that it calls Riku Replica a "third Riku" entering the fray). --Vanitas (talk) 23:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I mean, it would be, it's a third body. It can still be a Master Xehanort/Young Xehanort situation. Hell, they already have Ansem, and he's technically using Riku's body."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 00:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I feel that the game goes pretty far out of its way to clarify that Dark Riku is not the same as the original Riku Replica. Despite the dialogue from San Fransokyo onwards attempting to mislead the player into thinking that this Riku is a time-traveller from his time possessed as Ansem, an interval actually explicitly states otherwise. Specifically, "Interval VI-2: The Keyblade Graveyard", in which Marluxia states: "Vexen's latest replicas are no mere puppets. The Riku replica we used in Castle Oblivion was just a prototype. The next replica, the one crafted from Sora's memories, was real enough to join our ranks." - Truthful-Sentiment (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Marluxia is pretty clearly talking about Xion, there."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 13:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I kinda tend to agree... --Samoa Joe (talk) 13:30, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Considering Xion was created before the Riku Replica in Castle Oblivion, I can't agree that she's what Marluxia is referring to here. I can see why you might think that, but can't agree. - Truthful-Sentiment (talk) 10:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

"In my work on the Replica Program for the Organization, I produced some twenty vessels. Most of the early results were failures, not one of them granted a number. The first success to emerge from that early lot was the Riku replica. Subsequently, Xion (No. i) was essentially indistinguishable from a natural human, though she became unstable due to the influence of others."

Marluxia is talking about Xion. That's not me "thinking that", that's what the game makes absolutely clear. I'm unclear where you got the idea that Xion was created ~~after~~before Riku Replica, as even in Days Vexen states she is his finest Replica, and the first one to gain number status."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I actually said that Xion was created before, not after. I still feel inclined to think that Marluxia was referring to a new replica rather than Xion, as it seems like an odd way to refer to her in this context. I don't think it's absolutely clear, if something can be interpreted two different ways. Either way, I'm sorry if I came off as rude; I had no intention of doing so. - Truthful-Sentiment (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I mistyped that. I'm unsure where you got the idea that Xion was created before Riku Replica."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:05, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Ultimania confirms that it is the time-traveling heart of the Riku Replica from after it was first made, in a new body. Whether that makes it a new being entirely or not is up to interpretation, I guess. Given that it is continually called Dark Riku in all material, including the game and the Ultimania, I'd say it's considered a separate being, but we should be upfront that it is a time traveling heart of the Replica, not of Riku. Light Roxas 18:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I changed the page to say it's a time-traveling Riku Replica. I'm not sure if it deserves its own page. I would say it does, because the original Riku Replica is a different character that also appears in KH3. TheSilent Hero 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Heeeeeeeey, that's two out of three. Nice.

If we're considering this a separate character, I'd say we'd have to treat Ansem SoD, Xemnas, and any other time travelers as separate characters as well. So, Ansem (Replica) and Xemnas (Replica). Probably Roxas and Xion too. Which, I mean, I'm fine with. They behave significantly differently from their original incarnations."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:44, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I feel like we're getting into touchy philosophical territory here - for Ansem, Xemnas, Roxas, Xion, it's still them with their original hearts and all their memories. We're kind of debating what determines what a living thing actually is at this point. Chitalian 8 20:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Young Xehanort and Master Xehanort share a page despite appearing alongside each other and being the same person with one being a time traveller. Same situation as Riku Replica and Dark Riku so should be treated same way. --Vanitas (talk) 20:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

LightRoxas - "I'm proud to be a small part of something bigger - the people it did choose.
TALK - "I am who I am, because of them."

It's tough. There's benefits to both separate and singular articles. On the one hand the new replicas are, based on the fundamental building blocks of this universe, different beings than the originals. They have different bodies, they've experienced different things. On the other hand, the are typically treated as the same being. Roxas and Xion, especially, are not seemingly considered anything other than the restored characters we already know.

Entities like Dark Riku make it more complicated because, as TSH said, we have two Riku Replicas in the same game interacting with each other. Both with the same heart, but with different bodies and very different behaviors. It's similar to the trouble we have with YX, because it's the same person living two lives concurrently. While other "replica beings" like Ansem, Xemnas, Xion, and Roxas benefit from being the only versions of their heart to exist in the present, so linear storytelling is easier.

I guess all I'm saying is that I don't know what the best method is. We do want each separate article to be as cohesive a take as possible on that specific character, so separating the articles out seems counter to that goal, but at the same time, imagining a singular Riku Replica article that makes reference to one yanking the other out of a different replica body is enough to make me shudder.

KrytenKoro - "Hey, I want to settle down. And as soon as I find the right small group of girls, the seven or eight women who are right for me, my wandering days are over, buddy."
TALK -

Young Xehanort and Master Xehanort were specifically proposed for a split after the revelation that they are fundamentally composed differently. That has always been our criteria -- why we separate Riku-Ansem from Riku, or Ventus-Vanitas from Vanitas.

Based on our precedent, I would propose treating Riku Replica the same way we are planning to treat Xehanort -- an overview article for his direct progression for time, with a "go to next article" for the interlude where he traveled through time.

I am annoyed at how they handled Terra, tho -- we basically have to have an article for Terra, then cut to Terra-Xehanort, then cut to Ansem and Xemnas, then back to Terra, then back to Terra-Xehanort, then back to Terra. Would have made more sense for him to just be a time traveler, and they rescue Terra separately.

Okay, so here's what the ultimania says for "what kind of being is it?" (どのような存在か) ([1]):

Dark Riku: レプリカに過去のリク＝レプリカの心が入っている (A Replica containing the heart of the Riku Replica from the past)

compare to the other neo-org replicas:

Xion レプリカに「XIII機関に加入して間もないころのシオンの心」が入っている (A Replica containing 'the heart of Xion from her early days as a member of the XIII Order')
Ansem: レプリカに過去のアンセムの心が入っている (A Replica containing the heart of the Ansem from the past)
Xemnas: レプリカに過去のゼムナスの心が入っている (A Replica containing the heart of the Xemnas from the past)
Young Xehanort: レプリカに過去のアンセムの心が入っている (A Replica containing the heart of the Young Xehanort from the past)
Vanitas: レプリカに過去のヴァニタスの心が入っている (A Replica containing the heart of the Vanitas from the past)

So, whatever we do with Dark Riku to differentiate it from Riku Replica, we have to also do with Ansem, Xemnas, Vanitas, Young Xehanort, and Xion. If we keep those merged, we need to keep this merged with Riku Replica. If we split this, we have to split those.

(On a side note, this page does use "人間" (human) instead of Nobody for Master Xehanort's state. That still presents problems for all the animals, constructs, etc.

On another side note, this page species that Terra-Xehanort is "The body of Terra containing the heart of the Terra-Xehanort from the past.""We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 14:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

On a third side note (also, question marks are per the text):

Master Xehanort (destroyed: death (消滅 (昇天)))
Young Xehanort (destroyed: heart returned to the past)
Terra-Xehanort (Terra's heart returns to body, restoring Terra (Terra-Xehanort's heart is destroyed))
Ansem (destroyed)
Xemnas (destroyed)
Vanitas (destroyed)
Xigbar (returned to human(?) and still alive)
Vexen (returned to human without being defeated and still alive)
Saix (returned to human and still alive)
Demyx (returned to human and still alive(?))
Luxord (returned to human and still alive(?))
Marluxia (returned to human and still alive(?))
Larxene (returned to human and still alive(?))
Dark Riku: something about being destroyed by replica and namine does something (too many kanji for me to bother right now)
Xion: something about sora's heart and being touched by the light (too many kanji for me to bother right now)

I think it's easier if we split characters if they are around at the same time. Young Xehanort and Master Xehanort are both around at the same time in KH3, so we split them. Same with Riku Replica and Dark Riku. KH3 Ansem and KH1 Ansem are never around at the same time, so we don't split them. Same for Xemnas, Xion, and Vanitas. TheSilent Hero 14:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't Xion still exist, though? She had her true heart in Sora, and her fake heart in the Replica."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:02, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Her heart was in Sora the entire time, but she doesn't appear until she takes over the replica body. TheSilent Hero 15:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Name

Dark Riku has been used throughout the series to refer to Riku under Ansem's possession from KH1, and was likely used for this form of Riku Replica as the game initially wants you to think he is that Ansem-possessed Riku. I suggest renaming this page to "Dark Riku (Replica)" or "Dark Riku Replica". --Vanitas (talk) 10:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

The Ultimania and in-game journal both refer to him as "Dark Riku." I believe that is why we are keeping his name as this even as we are clarifying that he is the heart of the replica. Light

Roxas 13:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Can you give us a cite for that?"We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 14:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

This tweet has the picture of Dark Riku's page in the Ultimania. I'm not at home right now so I can't screenshot the journal but I'll try to do so soon. Light

Roxas 14:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

The trading card game (not that that matters much) and Union X. --Vanitas (talk) 14:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Oi, works for me."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 16:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think he was named Dark Riku to make you think he was possessed Riku, because the Japanese names are different. Dark Riku is called ダーク・リク in KH3. Possessed Dark Riku is called 闇の力をまとったリク in KHUX, and 闇リク in Recoded's Avatar Menu. And since Dark Riku is the only official name we have, and we don't have a separate page for possessed Riku, I say we keep this page as Dark Riku, and have a youmay to the possessed Riku. TheSilent Hero 18:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Merge with Riku Replica page

Shouldn't this page be merged with the Riku Replica page? They're the same character, just in different vessels. Having this be a separate page would be like making separate pages for the time traveling versions of Xemnas and Ansem. I understand the argument of the Gummiphone/Journal and Ultimania treating him as a separate character to Riku Replica, but they also treat Young Xehanort as a separate character to Master Xehanort. I think a good idea would be to treat the Riku Replica page the same as how the Xehanort page is treated: have two separate tabs, one for Riku Replica and one for Dark Riku, just like how the Xehanort page has two tabs for Master Xehanort and Young Xehanort. Anyone agree? --Elfdemon (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

We are discussing splitting the MX and YX pages. I am against merging Dark Riku and Riku Replica, because they essentially are different characters. This article is about a brand-new replica that contains the heart of a brainwashed Repliku. It is a new person. Meanwhile, the original Repliku is one who goes through and grows past this stage in his personal history. - Eternal Nothingness XIII 18:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)