User talk:Christoph Schrader/Magic Page Specimen

Christoph Schrader - When I think of Winter, I see a Happiness that cannot end. TALK - I would be delighted to talk. This is a propounded format for magic pages based upon an alterration of the existing one. The Holy spell has been chosen for purposes of this specimen as its page is, at present, incomplete, though this sample does not quite fill in all of the gaps that have been left open and more information still shall be necessary for its completion. It is generally modelled upon the existing spell pages, but with additions based upon those used at Aselia and owing to the mistaken use of the word "etymology" to mean the origin of the spell, and not the word itself. The reasoning behind the etymology is that words often carry interesting past meanings that may not be apparent from the present one, and that might shed a bit more light upon why this word was chosen to name the spell and not some other. Please leave any comments and suggestions for improvement following the explanation, but do not edit the page itself without my permission.

Explanation

Learning

This section explains how the spell is learnt in each game in which it appears.

Recipe

If it has one, this section should include the recipe required to unlock the spell in Days or Birth By Sleep.

Casting

This section should contain where and how the spell appears in each game in the series, including a brief description of what it does when cast.

Enemies who use it

This section, self-evidently, lists enemies who use a certain sort of magic. It should be given in the order of Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Bosses.

Other Uses

This section contains other uses of the spell's name that do not directly relate to casting it, and may include subheadings such as synthesis materials and gummy blocks.

Origin

This section contains two subsections -- one explaining its origins in the Final Fantasy series if the spell is not unique to Kingdom Hearts, and another detailing the etymology of the word, or its history as a part of the English language.

Quotes

This section contains quotes by casters of the spell in question said specifically in connection with said spell, and no other quotes should be included.

Trivia

This section contains, as it does anywhere else, a list of random bits of data on the subject.

Comments and Suggestions

• "semi-recurring" doesn't make sense.
• The third and fourth lines in the lead are waffling.
• The Learning lines for CoM and ReCoM are needlessly long.
• The Casting for BBS mentions Salvation, which is irrelevant.
• The bit about the Holy-G is completely irrelevant to this page, and redundant to the actual Gummi's page.
• The Angel Star bit is needless, and since it says "holy" rather than "Holy", speculative.
• The Kingdom Hearts II section is much, much too long. All it need say is that Minnie and Mickey can cast it, and possibly describe how it works.
• "Enemies who use" has always been a terrible section, and absolutely should not be on the final page.
• The "Quotes" section is pointless filler.
• The second trivia point is missing words, or placed wrong.
• The third trivia point is completely irrelevant to KH, and even if it was, it should be in the etymology.

In general, the format we have now (1) describes what the attack does in the lead, (2) describes how to get it, and (3) describes what the name means. That's all the actual information about a technique there is - as shown here, anything else you try to throw in ends up being waffling, filler, or otherwise completely irrelevant.Glorious CHAOS! 03:31, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Christoph Schrader - When I think of Winter, I see a Happiness that cannot end. TALK - I would be delighted to talk. I accept your criticisms, though I disagree with several. Semi-recurring means that appears in some games, but not in others. Salvation is relevant, since it does the same thing, just as abilities that use the same attribute as the Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and Aero spells are relevant on those pages. The Angel Star also appears to use light-based magic, making it relevant. I disagree about the enemies who use it being irrelevant. Some enemies have a certain elemental theme, for example, such as Roxas with Light, Jaffar Genie with Fire, and so forth. The second trivia point is missing a word, though it was a mistake I believed I had corrected. What a technique does and how to obtain it are the basic points of information about it. You are also, quite frankly, tactless. What is more, you say to tell what the name means, but criticise me for providing its origin? Please, do be more consistent. Individual usages of a word within certain media do not constitute an etymology. The etymology of the word "holy" is its history as a part of the English language -- it is the direct descendant of the Middle English "hooly", which is, in turn, a descendant of Old English "halig", both of which sound very nearly like the word as it is now pronounced. You also know that I am perfectly aware of your opinion of my formatting this page, and so restating it here strikes me as a want of self-control and a tendency to think your opinion above that of anybody else. Please kindly remember that it is not, and that I do not appreciate being so addressed on my own talk page.

"Recurring" is the correct term. It does not imply that it appears in every installment, just that it appears in more than one. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 18:03, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

No, Salvation is not relevant. Salvation will get it's own page. It does not need to be covered here. That is a major misunderstanding of how the "see also" works.

Re:Angel Star: "Appears" is the clincher there.

Theme, yes. "Explicitly uses this spell", no, which is why I dislike it.

"What a technique does and how to obtain it are the basic points of information about it." - they are also pretty much all there is to say about these abilities, since they have no influence on the plot, and are purely mechanical concepts. Most anything further is waffling.

Yes, I am tactless. It helps get people to give up faster on changing my mind.

Let me put it this way re:etymology - any explanation of the name's history beyond where it appeared in FF or Disney is completely useless to us. Your complaint, then, boils down to "the header name does not accurately describe the contents". How would you change the header to resolve this problem?

EDIT: New critique - the first trivia point is, by its nature, useless. It is weasel-wording (one of some that generally aren't), preventing it from being either informative or worth being the trivia section.

You are the one who created a section for "comments and suggestions". I am trying to dissuade any work that will end up being wasted, since it is no good for either of us - you use up all your time writing something that will be left unused, and become bitter, and I have to revert the edit, wasting my time. I am sorry about this, but it is true - by and large, what you've done here will be of no use to the wiki, and criticizing me as a person is not going to change that. You can either address the criticisms of your work, or continue to spend time railing against me, but that's your decision.Glorious CHAOS! 18:14, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Christoph Schrader - Oh, I cannot, for the Life of me, understand what you want to say. TALK - If you would explain, I'm listening. Your readings of what is relevant and what is not ring highly shallow. Claiming that the name of a spell has no further relevance on the plot might be true for some, but untrue for others. For example, consider how Ventus, whose name means "wind" in Latin, has not only a wind-based theme, but also one based on divinity as well, for his deck commands include "Faith" and "Salvation". These reenforce his character as one of innocence and purity, and hint at his heart of pure light. So no, the basic points of a technique are not all there is to say about it, I fear. You did not, I hope, believe I would have included them without believing there to be reason to? And did, I hope, think about what that reason might be before dismissing it? In a well-executed game, abilities are often more than "mechanical concepts" as you call them, and the names given to them may sometimes be used to give a subtle bit of characterisation. For the issue of theme versus explicitly using the spell, Roxas uses the same (or nearly the same) laser graphic Ventus does, and also fires a stream of pearl-esque objects. As it has been shown between the games, an individual spell can take many forms, or even several within the same game (Cf. Days), and many enemy abilities are identical in attribute to the spells to which Sora has access without looking the same (and have the same effects, even, but with different graphics). I concede that Salvation does belong in See Also (something I had forgotten to include), and also, upon reflection, that recurring and not semi-recurring is the proper word. Please clarify your complaint about the first trivia point. As for criticising you as a person, I felt the need to do so because your comments seemed decidedly less-worthy of attention then they might otherwise have been owing to the way in which they were presented. Tactlessness is a fault, not a virtue -- that would be honesty.