Forum:Huge problems on the IRC

Forums: Index > The World that Never was > Huge problems on the IRC

KrytenKoro - Pinocchio with his nose attached to the trigger of a rifle, which points at his face as he says, "I want to live!" TALK - This. WHAT. THE. SMEG. The part that galls me isn't that someone broke the rules, it's that the ops ganged up on the person that reported it, as per the rules which the ops pretend to follow. Quite honestly, I'm disgusted with the ops who were present. Between this and the lack of fixes to the bot, I think the wiki should disown the IRC thread. If the IRC and the people "running" it are going to continue to create a cesspool, I will fight against our wiki sponsoring it.

NinjaSheik - All of this might have started with a lie...But I'm really am glad that I could meet you... TALK - One day, the light-it will be ours, and it will bring us together. Til then, I'll be in your heart... Wait, KrytenKoro. I know I'm a normal user here and all, but the thing is...Well, the only reason we gained the IRC Channel because of the many edits on talkpages that slows down the Recent Changes. If you're disgusted with the ops that are present, then perhaps new ops are in order. If we take down the IRC Channel, everyone will start using their talkpages again and it will slow down the Recent Changes. Maybe the recent ops have outgrown their position and needs to step down. I suggest that we chose new ops to manage IRC. Ones that will not lose their temper and break the rules.

KrytenKoro - Ṱ͐͒H̫̾̃E͈͔͍͔̾̋ͦ̕ ͇̜͖͉̘̬͙̃̇̊͜N͙͉̑̓̌ͤĬ̸͇̖͈͒̃Gͧ͊̈́­̮̠̟͖̝̩H̽͌̀T͚̹̝̐ͬ̂̔̄ ̿̈́̊̃ͦ͆͑A̘̝̖ͪͯ́̀ͣ̿̃͝I̟͑ͬR̡͎̩̚ ̠̪̈́̑̏̏̋C̯̲ͩ́͐͒͂ͪ͜Ä͍̜̣̼̹́͌̋̀͒͂ͅ­N̅͐̆ͪ̓̋ͩ ̣ͮͧͧ͌Ả̼̤̜̫̩̜̾̕L͓͓̺̤̘̠̀W̷͗͂ͦ̾͒­̭̯̼A̘͓̰̠͉͇̬Y̵̒ͧͩ̇ͅS ̦̻̯̟̮̭̟̓̒͑͋C̮̱͔͔̖̯ͦͧͨ͋̑A̤ͩ̉̅ͪR­̞͉̣̦̪̜̮͛̉̎̀ͩ̍̇R̢̥̳̝̟̺̣̈Y͗͋̅͏͇̳­̪͎̺ ̭͈͍̝̣͍̒̎̑͘O̖̗͇̲̲̖͊̈́̿ͨ͑ͅN̩̰͉͍͍͖­͙E̩̹̣̰̣͓̖̽̊͡ ̲̮͔̯̦̋̿ͧͫ̓ͅM͇̌͌̔́O̱̫̯̬̤̗̲͛R̙̽E­̥̦̫̺͙̩̏̒ͯͭ́ ̖̫̯͉̱ͣͯͩ͊͐͆ͫS̰̿̊̑̋ͩ̇ͅC̘̣̜͍̆̆ͧ͜­R̞̾͐̋̆̚Ë̡͇̓A̙͈M̡̤̙̈ TALK - I'm not suggesting taking down the IRC. I'm suggesting that we remove all the notices telling our readers "Hey, we have an IRC, and here's the rules we follow to make sure everyone enjoys themselves!" if it's a filthy lie.

I advised Saph about the entire issue. The main issue here is fear, since the person involved is a KHW admin. Now, I'm letting her off, because I'm sure she'll safeguard herself. But the whole point now is sensitivity. We should be able to poke other users regarding this. If we can't, then there's no point of creating the channel. It's PG-rated, and not only because there are kids : there are some who firmly abstain from all impure pleasures. Me included. Now, I shall be e-mailing two of the admins the text that I have gathered as backing evidence to Kryten's link. Now, to sum it all up : every user should be able to warn, and every user, likewise, should be able to retain a decent bit of sensitivity. Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 01:52, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

NinjaSheik - All of this might have started with a lie...But I'm really am glad that I could meet you... TALK - One day, the light-it will be ours, and it will bring us together. Til then, I'll be in your heart... Sesitivity? That's kinda hard to retain, especially when angered.

LegoAlchemist - They changed "Snipe Magnet" to "Magnet Grab"? Who's translating this game, 4kids? TALK - Friendships are in direct contravention of mercenary conduct as delineated in your contracts, and on a personal note: I am very, very, disappointed with you. I agree with pretty much everything, except for the whole disowning the channel bit. Getting rid of the IRC would be a very hypocritical move, as we pretty much cheer on the use of it and not User Space for conversations. It isn't the channel's fault, it's the channeleers. Ninja, sensitivity may be hard to retain, but letting it out through anger is pretty much smashing everything assuming good faith stands for. Like everything that has rules, as soon as any user enters the IRC, they are agreeing to follow them. That is always how it is universally. If users have dropped to a going so low as to just breaking them, and the users in charge OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER do barely anything to stop it, we have a serious problem on our hands. I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I wasn't an op, by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? Everyone should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, especially, as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing. Everything that we have tried to work for on the IRC has pretty much been destroyed, as well as DTN's aforementioned speech on us not needing ops. Let's face it. It is iminant. I need say nothing more on the matter.

So I sent the file to BK and Kryten. @Kryten : Thoughts on the whole matter ? Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 02:54, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

BebopKate - This one is Zazzles...because he's Zazzy! TALK - Here's your cat...and here's your $20...03:30, July 9, 2010 (UTC) First and foremost: Based on that text, TroisNyx's reports, at least two previous texts I've read, heck, based on a message posted on my own talk page not yesterday, I see the need to remove at least one user from ops, if not from IRC. Hexed has continued to flout the rules after warnings from many folks; he seems to think he is above them. He could have easily created a new channel, invited interested chatters, and post whatever he pleased in there, as the PG rule is for the main room only. Instead, he chose to remain in the main room and continue to taunt LegoAlchemist and other users, as well as post inappropriate links or language. He has demonstrated on this and other occasions he is not mature enough to be an op. There are a couple of other ops I think we need a close look at, but we'll worry about this later. Next: Warning system for all. Can we trial run it for a week to see if it works? I think this is one of those things we have to experiment to see how it goes. I think the philosophy behind it is sound, but I want to see if it creates any issues. The idea of IRC was to create a safe environment where all users could enjoy talking about stuff without having to clog up the wiki; those people creating IRC issues are now doing just that by causing users to complain on our talk pages and forcing us to create forum topics like this. I've also wasted about twenty minutes of my free time dealing with this issue. I, nor any other admin, want to come on this wiki and deal with this. I think a lot more of us admin/ops are going to be cracking down on this in the future. Consider this your warning. I'm sure some folks wonder why I'm so keen on us remaining a PG-rated channel. I'm also sure most of you are aware of the average age of our users. Some posters have taken the attitude that "Kids & teens are going to see/do/say it anyway, so what's the harm?" You'd be surprised...I could tell stories from my time as a teacher, both from my room and other teachers. I won't tell them here, partially out of confidentiality, and partially because some are graphic enough I'd be breaking our own wiki rule (Irony, no?). But I can say that while it might not be life-altering, damage can be done, and it's not fun to deal with. So here's the deal: if a user doesn't like the IRC rules, they certainly don't have to post there. If they want to troll, swear, post crap, and so on, there are hundreds of thousands of channels and chatrooms across the internet you may choose to do so in. But not in this one.

KrytenKoro - This is the song that runs under the credits; these are the credits, so this is where it goes. 'has nothing to do with the movie so we'll say, "Hey! Hey! Hey hey hey hey hey hey!" TALK - I agree with everything TNE and BK have posted. I don't want us to make the IRC some fascist echo-chamber, but it simply can't be denied that we have some of our most frequent users both flouting and mocking the very basic rules we have. The rules are not arbitrary, and they do need to be enforced.

Guys, if rules are being broken, then use the ban-hammer. Simple. As. That. If EVEN MORE mods are required, I suggest someone consider me. I'm mod at #FFwiki, and in general, I'm a pretty decent mod. Adola 10:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

LotsoBearLover - Welcome to sunnyside! TALK - You've got a playdate with destiny!" I'm Kinda agree to Getting rid of some the current ops and trying some new ones...

Yuan Salve! — 11:53, July 9, 2010 (UTC) "Days that I have held, days that I have lost / days that outgrow, like daughters, my harbouring arms" Eradicating the notion that warnings are only important when given by ops would be helpful. Regular users are also responsible for their behaviour and the atmosphere in the channel, as well as educating newcomers about the rules of this channel. Perhaps they are unable to kick users, but there are certainly measures they can take, such as reporting offences and giving advice. "every user should be able to warn, and every user, likewise, should be able to retain a decent bit of sensitivity." This does, if I recall correctly, concur with the current IRC rules page. Flaming is not tolerated - or at least, it should not be. What constitutes flaming, however, varies from person to person, which I gather is part of the problem. The other issue is the double standard we have for old users and new. I doubt that behaviour such as Hexed's would be tolerated from a newcomer, but familiarity with him leads us to have greater tolerance for it as it's "just Hexed being Hexed". I am guilty of it. I'm sure there are others who treat it as simply an elaborate in-joke. This would be acceptable in most channels, but we've taken it upon ourselves to make this channel PG, and thus have added responsibility. I'm not overly impressed by the "think of the children" defence; what strikes me as important is ensuring that visitors to the channel enjoy their time there. Rather than censoring profanities simply because they are profanities, I would prefer to concentrate on preventing and (if there is no other alternative) punishing inappropriate behaviour when it causes offence to others. "[Hexed] has demonstrated on this and other occasions he is not mature enough to be an op." Hexed's op rights were removed several months ago. The current ops are Azul, MelodiousNature, Kate, DTN, Bluer, Yermom, Gamer, Xion4ever, SSC, Sapharus, Faethin, Kryten, Neumannz and myself. For the record, only Azul, Faethin and I are able to remove or give ops permanently, and Faethin is only there for maintenance purposes (I think). Any new op candidates will, and have, been considered by both Azul and myself after they've been brought to our attention. "If they want to troll, swear, post crap, and so on, there are hundreds of thousands of channels and chatrooms across the internet you may choose to do so in." Indeed, we have one already: it's called #lolkick. By the way, Kate, I believe you used a word we're no longer allowed to say on the channel - does that extend to the wiki ;)? On that note, I ask that the following words be removed from the swear filter: Ass Bastard Faggot Queer These words have meanings which are quite apart from their usage as profanities or slurs (particularly the last - not only does it mean "peculiar", it has also largely lost its negative connotations, being used by the LGBT community and academia). The term "badass" has also passed into general parlance.

On a side note, if they are removed from the swear filter, and if people use it in such a way that it can be largely construed to be a swear or a slur, we can drop the warning bombshell, right ? Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 12:07, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yuan Salve! — 12:10, July 9, 2010 (UTC) "Days that I have held, days that I have lost / days that outgrow, like daughters, my harbouring arms" Certainly. Intent and tone is more of an issue than what is said.

Alright. ^_^ Now time to enforce all this. It's definitely going to be difficult to deal with the whole lot of them, but I think this is the umpteenth time that yelling on KHW over the IRC has been done. Guess it all boils down to good faith. Many of the ops aren't online frequently, so what do we do ? The only one who's on regularly (as I see) is Sapharus. Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 12:15, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

LotsoBearLover - Welcome to sunnyside! TALK - You've got a playdate with destiny!" The only thing I don't understand is why you people Op people on the channel that are on only at Late Night..

First, the actual channel Operators are: Azul, Yuan, Bluer, Yermom, Gamer, myself, Melodious Nature, SSC, DTN, Kryten, Sapharus, Faethin, and Neumannz. (type /msg chanserv access #wikia-kingdomhearts list). Not all staff members have the channel operator status they were guaranteed, meaning staff members that do come on the channel (TNE, Kate, HoO [he rarely comes on]) are not able to perform the sometime necessary channel operator position. Another thing about the lack of Ops: look at the months these past problems have occurred in- June and July. For most of us, the months represent summer vacation, a time of relaxation and trips. This means that the activity of certain users (both channel operators and non channel operators) sometimes varies. For instance, DTN has taken a week or two off for personal reasons. Meanwhile, "old" users like Marexl show up on the channel. My point is that we kinda expected this; we know users will be in/out of the channel (and wiki) during these summer months. Also, we know certain users behave very differently around so-and-so. For example: Riku12 is normally a constant spammer on the IRC...when channel operators aren't around. However, Riku12 acts like the perfect user when channel operator, UnverzedRulez, is on. I don't see much point in electing new channel operators with the main reason being a lack for something we knew was going to happen. However, if the consensus sees it fit that new operators be elected, by all means do so. Also, if we see it fit to elect new operators I strongly encourage that the few non-Ops staff members recieve their "powers" first, then we judge from there if new operators are needed. Another solution to this is to give Central Wikia IRC users (#wikia) channel operator status on #wikia-kingdomhearts. Similar to Central Wikia admins having to block some vandals on here, Central Wikia users could fill the lacking channel operator position, if we choose so. To answer GB's question: We [channel operators], as well as regular users, do have a life outside of the wiki/IRC. As much as we'd like to be on and patrol both as much as we like, we simply cannot. Problems with the real life conflict with the wiki life, such as school, trips, family problems, and so on. Just how life is. To conclude this rant, most problems on the IRC are a result from immaturity and (for some) an ignorance to the rules. Most users on the channel (including those who created/played a part in the problems) know the rules or have seen the page a few times. Problem is the lack of self-discipline to obey them. Channel operators can rant about the rules and kick/ban as much as it is needed. However, it is the opposite of what we want to do. Each indvidual user makes the IRC what it is. If you constantly break the rules then the channel is chaos. If you follow the rules then the channel can be fun. The IRC channel is what you make it, channel operators can kick/ban every rule breaker but that is neither fun nor what we desire to do. I hate to say this since I know that those involved in/caused the problems can act much better than they've shown, but, if needed, we [channel operators] can ban every rule breaker without cease and make #wikia-kingdomhearts the strictist IRC channel there is. Heck, we can even dispose of the channel if needed. Think of this paragraph as a final warning? Sure, if that's how you view it. Xion4ever Who am I? — 13:49, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Never in a thousand years would we wanna take out KHIRC....... provided that we get everyone to act according to conduct. Newcomers are all eager to adhere to the rules, why not the old timers too ? Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 13:53, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

maggosh Strike backwards... — "That's a nice expression." You're terrified, aren't you? Indeed, we have one already: it's called #lolkick. The very same lolkick DTN kicked me from for doing what the channel was intended for?

Having seen all these issues, I really think some standards need to be put in place. Now don't go complaining and saying that it's a channel apart from KHIRC ; it involves KHW users. All of whom are persons. There are some things even the stars cannot tell me. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 14:27, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

LotsoBearLover - Welcome to sunnyside! TALK - You've got a playdate with destiny!" I have also Seen alot of user bashing on the IRC, and I think it's time to do something serious about it.

LegoAlchemist - They changed "Snipe Magnet" to "Magnet Grab"? Who's translating this game, 4kids? TALK - Friendships are in direct contravention of mercenary conduct as delineated in your contracts, and on a personal note: I am very, very, disappointed with you. If we ever plan to induct new operators, why not induct those who are on almost all day, such as maggosh, Adola, and (not to sound a jerk or something...) myself?

KingdomKeyDarkside - You both... think you can do whatever you want. Well, I'm sick of it. TALK - Go on, you just keep running. But I'll always be there to bring you back! We definitely need some new ops if this is happening. As Lego suggested, Adola, Maggosh, and himself would all be good candidates, as they remain level-headed all the time, from what I have seen.

The Inexistent - Pitiful users, mindlessly collecting information. The rage of an edit releases this knowledge, and they all come together, to form: The Wiki!!! TALK - And on the Wiki these words appear: "My name is The_Inexistent, user of users: Look upon my edits, ye Mighty, and despair!" There are certain users coughsuiseisekimaggoshadolacough who are almost always on the channel. Or at least when I'm on, which is basically every ten minutes...

LotsoBearLover - Welcome to sunnyside! TALK - You've got a playdate with destiny!" Maggosh isn't Always on in my view.

LegoAlchemist - They changed "Snipe Magnet" to "Magnet Grab"? Who's translating this game, 4kids? TALK - Friendships are in direct contravention of mercenary conduct as delineated in your contracts, and on a personal note: I am very, very, disappointed with you. Suiseiseki? He's on, but I never see him talk... ._. And I can't remember ever seeing you on, TheInexistant.

Yuan Salve! — 00:08, July 10, 2010 (UTC) "Days that I have held, days that I have lost / days that outgrow, like daughters, my harbouring arms" The issue is not a lack of ops. We have plenty. The issue is rampant flouting of the rules and immature behaviour which has not been appropriately reined in.

Azul81677 - "Ebil minds think ebily alike." - A collaboration between 2 very ebil minds TALK - 00:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Previous posts really sum up what I'd say. A solution: Follow the roolz or GTHO. Not reely, but reely. We didn't create the IRC roolz page to look pretty, but as a serious "manual" of the IRC. It's srs bssness and should be taken as such. We're not asking a lot, don't curse, be courteous. Is it that hard? Those who can't learn to follow it can get the hecko off. Including current ops Problem with Hexedy: I think most of us from the FFWiki and who have known Hexed have a higher tolerance for his behavior and due to that, we don't take what he says all that seriously. But I think I can work something out. Addition of moar ops?: TNE is the only active IRC-er/Staff member that I know of that doesn't have op status. So as soon as I see her I will op her. Adola and maybe 1 other person are the only people I see fit right now to recieve op. But even if we do that, it won't guarantee that the immature behavior will cease. I'm pretty much always there. Never heard, but always there, most of the time >> De-opping?: The behavior exhibited by the ops and others in that link was unacceptable. Repercussions will be discussed.

About the FFW thing, I understand. Kuja himself told me that he got blocked once on KHIRC for his behaviour, but ever since then, things have changed. I think we've gotta tell them that when in a particular game's IRC, adhere to the rules of the game. FF allows for suggestive themes, language, alcohol reference and what not ; KH does not, or if it does, it's really minor. As for ops and stuff......... WHAT !?! Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 01:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

KrytenKoro - "I'm the doctor, I'm the patient. Don't forget that - it's important! If you love me like I love me, everybody will be sorry." TALK - I think we also need to discuss, do we want the swear filter at all? Too many users have either gotten the impression (or pretended they have the impression) that anything not flagged by the filter is fair game. Plus, I haven't gotten any transcripts from it yet, so as far as my op-ness, it hasn't been helping.

BebopKate - This one is Zazzles...because he's Zazzy! TALK - Here's your cat...and here's your $20...03:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Thanks for the updates, Yuan. Since I can't be on IRC as much as I'd like, I was not aware of Hexed's de-opping. Also...crap? Seriously? Add that one to the list. Speaking of which...are we actually getting anything out of the swear filter, other than a reminder to the perpetrator that they shouldn't be using that particular word? Is Adola turning the info over to anyone (or making it accessible), or is it sitting there until asked for? And please don't misunderstand what I said; it's not just the young'ins or the swearing. I'm not interested in turning IRC into a totalitarian regime. I want everyone else to be able to have fun and enjoy themselves. And so, it pretty much amounts to what a lot of people above me have said: it's all about respect and courtesy.

No one has ever asked for the logs. Why would I just spew them out everywhere? Ask for the logs, and you will receive Adola 08:42, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

BebopKate - This one is Zazzles...because he's Zazzy! TALK - Here's your cat...and here's your $20...20:37, July 11, 2010 (UTC) I figured that was the case; just wanted to check and make sure. Thanks for all your help Adola. Whatever works out for IRC, we certainly do appreciate what you've done for us.

The Inexistent - Pitiful users, mindlessly collecting information. The rage of an edit releases this knowledge, and they all come together, to form: The Wiki!!! TALK - And on the Wiki these words appear: "My name is The_Inexistent, user of users: Look upon my edits, ye Mighty, and despair!" Two things (not really pretaning to where the conversation went in my absence, mostly just answers to things people haf directed tword me) 1. I never said we needed more ops. i just meant that they should possibly replace the older ones. 2. @LegoAlchemist, my IRC nick is KRCCFNF.

DoorToNothing — I dreamed last night... I got on the boat to Heaven! And by some chance, I had brought my dice along! — 03:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC) It's coming, everyone: the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. Even after several other forum threads were created to try and stop the issues that had been presented on the IRC and a meeting of channel operators, these problems are still presenting themselves regularly in the community. Our channel is on a road to its own destruction, and the community is the one in the driver's seat. I remember when I first came onto #wikia-kingdomhearts; a much smaller community had settled there, and the chat was light and peaceful. That is nothing like what we have now. In fact, we have the exact opposite of what I stated in that first statement. The community is large at all times, and the chat is very often spam-like, nonsense-filled, and breaks out into arguments. The problem, though, is not a larger community on the channel. The problem is that, as I have said time and time again in those four other IRC forum threads and beyond, the community has absolutely no universal regard for the rules and regulations they have agreed to follow. We can have the best of both worlds; we can have a large community, and peaceful chat that is still enjoyable for everyone. That doesn't at all require any of the language, arguments, or nonsense that we use on the IRC currently. From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech here on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator. I completely agree with what has been stated by BebopKate. Now, serious issue here: #lolkick. This channel is in no way at all affiliated with the #wikia-kingdomhearts channel. This is a completely separate channel in which a select few users use it to talk as a small group, both casually and seriously. Yes, some of the common users who chat in #lolkick are also #wikia-kingdomhearts regulars, but this is no way links the channels to be affiliated to have a purpose related to #wikia-kingdomhearts. For example, my reason for kicking maggosh from that channel once is that a private discussion was going on previously, and quite often one is. Would you want random users walking in on your channel and disturbing the peace? NO. This is a completely different channel, and as such needs to be treated with respect to proper interchannel affairs. For example, when [username removed] brought a band of users to #wikia-twilightsaga, they were unwelcome, and consequently were kicked and banned. One of them being me; having bad interchannel affairs isn't fun for anyone. Think of the relationship between #wikia-kingdomhearts and #lolkick like this: a group of employees work at a local supermarket. Members of this group of employees are also often seen at a local bar. However, the supermarket and the bar are not connected or affiliated with each other just because they both have the same customers. The supermarket is #wikia-kingdomhearts, and the bar is #lolkick. This is all I have left to say on the matter: the channel is not headed in a good direction. The channel is headed toward its ultimate destruction, and there will be no new channel. There will be no replacement. The Kingdom Hearts Wiki will simply not have an IRC Channel. This channel has become so often abused, that we are running out of solutions to fix the problems that arise. It will not be long at all that the only remaining solution will be to remove the channel altogether, and that will simply be the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. And if we have to impose rules on user talk pages being used for conversation to substitute for a missing channel, we sure will. The IRC and wiki and meant to be two separate objects, but are starting to merge in an unhealthy, unwanted, and negative manner. If this continues, you can all say goodbye to #wikia-kingdomhearts. For good.