Talk:Dive to the Heart

Don't you think the top of the world should be mentioned? Play through the first part of Kingdom Hearts, switch to 1st person view, then look up (as long as you're on one of the pillars). It makes you have an uneasy feeling!

You might be right. Yeah, I notice that sinister single light that falls on the pillars. In the last pillar, it's that light that creates Sora's shadow and ultimately causes Darkside to awaken. Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne

In kh1 and 2 this is like a tutorial, yes? Then maybe in BbS we'll have something similair for ventus, aqua or terra( or al three of them)82.136.203.25 18:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we would. Though we don't have the same for Chain of Memories. And we probably wouldn't have the same for Days. Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne

CanadianSpence - I've been having these weird thoughts lately...like is any of this for real...or not? TALK - Regardless of warning the future doesn't scare me at all Well, Sora already had his Dive into the Heart at the start of Kingdom Hearts. That would explain why we didn't get one in CoM. As for Days, Roxas doesn't have his Dive until the third day of Kingdom Hearts II.

Treasure

In KH1, there is the one Potion chest at the free princess platform.

I know there's some in KH2, but I don't have my guide at hand right now.Glorious CHAOS! 04:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The KH potion is inside the box you have to smash. There are two potions in KH2; one in the Station of Serenity and the other in the Station of Calling. - HeartOfOblivion 04:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

What's inside that treasure chest in KH1, then?Glorious CHAOS! 04:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

When you open the chest, the box with the potion appears. It's because Sora has to learn to push things, I guess. - HeartOfOblivion 04:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There should probably still be the table for it, though, with the explanation in the "note" bit.Glorious CHAOS! 06:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Voice

PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart - I'm the only one! TALK - Woo hoo hoo hoo! I have a friend who thinks that the voice is Mickey. She thinks so because the voice's font is the same as Mickey's. Unfortunally I have no proof from the pics...

LotsoBearLover - Welcome to sunnyside! TALK - You've got a playdate with destiny!" maybe sooo :D

Flashpenny - You'll wear the face of despair. TALK - Where's the fun in this? I always thought it was Ansem. Midway through the voice says, "There is so very much to learn. You understand so little." And then at the game's climax he says, "So you've come this far and still you understand nothing." My other theory is that it was Xemnas. This would make sense since remember, Xemnas was planning on using Sora to gain control of Kingdom Hearts. So when he learned of a Heartless invasion going to the Destiny Islands he probably gave Sora the basic tutorial to start collecting Hearts. Also I honestly cannot picture Mickey saying, "You alone can open the door." That really just sounds more like one of the aforementioned villains. It just doesn't sound right with Mickey's voice when I say it aloud.

KrytenKoro - "It's always best when the other chap is willing to die for his beliefs; you both have the same goal in mind." TALK - "So you've come this far and still you understand nothing." is from a different scene, not the awakening. When Riku goes on the same journey into his heart in Final Mix, after Xehanort takes his body, he hears the same voice, and it clearly identifies itself as Mickey. Really, think about it - the voice even said the same kind of stuff Mickey did in CoM, but was reassuring and not critical, like Xemnas and Ansem's "Voices" were. Plus, the weapons the voice gives Sora are all the Dream weapons, symbols of Mickey.

Flashpenny - You'll wear the face of despair. TALK - Where's the fun in this? True but the Voice seemed calm and collected with a cool feel to it. Honestly Mickey sounds like the big-headed cartoon character he is. Really I cannot hear him saying the Voice's dialogue: "You alone can open the door." I honestly cannot picture that. It just doesn't feel right. Although you're right about the Ansem part I'm still clinging to my Xemnas theory. We never heard Xemnas' voice and for the most part the Voice seemed cold and emotionless: Xemnas alert. Also he seems to have the most motive for doing it.

• Mysterious Voice: So much to do, so little time... Take your time. Don’t be afraid. The door is still shut. Now, step forward. Can you do it?
• Mysterious Voice: If you give it form... It will give you strength. Choose well.
• Mysterious Voice: The power of the guardian. Kindness to aid friends. A shield to repel all. Is this the power you seek?
• Mysterious Voice: Your path is set.
• Mysterious Voice: Now, what will you give up in exchange?
• Mysterious Voice: The power of the warrior. Invincible courage. A sword of terrible destruction. You give up this power?
• Mysterious Voice: You’ve chosen the power of the guardian. You’ve given up the power of the warrior. Is this the form you choose?
• Mysterious Voice: You gained the power to fight.
• Mysterious Voice: All right! You’ve got it. Use this power to protect yourself and others.
• Mysterious Voice: There will be times when you have to fight. Keep your light burning strong.
• Mysterious Voice: Behind you!
• Mysterious Voice: Hold on. The door won’t open just yet. First, tell me more about yourself.
• Mysterious Voice: You’re afraid of getting old. You want to see rare sights. You want to be number one. Your adventure begins at dawn. As long as the sun is shining, your journey should be a pleasant one.
• Mysterious Voice: The day you will open the door is both far off and very near.
• Mysterious Voice: The closer you get to light, the greater your shadow becomes.
• Mysterious Voice: But don’t be afraid. And don’t forget...
• Mysterious Voice: But don’t be afraid. You hold the mightiest weapon of all.
• Mysterious Voice: So don’t forget: You are the one who will open the door.

The biggest tone I'm getting from this is that it is incredibly reassuring, and someone who understands friendship. That's just not Xemnas, at all. He tells Sora not to fight for any selfish goal, or even the impartial "justice", but in order to protect his friends - Xemnas would never say that. Hell, do Xemnas or Xehanort ever use exclamation marks?Glorious CHAOS! 00:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Flashpenny - You'll wear the face of despair. TALK - Where's the fun in this? But still Xemnas could've easily been manipulating. For all we know it could've been someone like Axel sent to do it. But that's besides the point. I honestly can't believe Mickey does that. That guy is so little and puny I find it hard that he actually rules a kingdom and that he can beat up Xaldin.

Unbirth Discussion — Et moi, Jack, L'EPOUVANTAIL ! Ils me trouvent génial, mes mauvais tours les émerveillent, tous les ans c'est le triomphe et la gloire. Since BBS was announced, I always thought that that voice was Ven's. We do know that he's got some link with Sora, and that Xemnas was looking for the room of awakening, where another friend is, since Aqua is in the room of sleep. There's other things I could say, but I have to sleep (it's 4:30 AM where I am)

KrytenKoro - "Hey, I want to settle down. And as soon as I find the right small group of girls, the seven or eight women who are right for me, my wandering days are over, buddy." TALK - It could have "easily" been a lot of characters, if we assume that they act completely out of character and differently than they do in every other appearance. However, the only character that the voice acts like is Mickey, as seen with Riku's pseudo-"Dive into the Heart". Ven is a reasonable guess, though.

It's Walt Disney voice from beyond the grave! Spooky!

Nitrous X Merry Christmas! — I have identified the scent. It is...Christmas! "When did that happen? You were always terrified of Santa before-" It can't be Ven anymore... He has his own awakening. I always thought it was one of these things: Some sort of incarnation of Light. The person most important to the person in the Awakening The Awakening world itself (perhaps it can think and speak) Kingdom Hearts (I always thought those two "worlds" had deep ties to each other, and I'm pretty sure Kingdom Hearts can think and has some sort of mind... But, the Awakening is one of the most unexplained aspects of KH. Who know's if this question will be revealed. EDIT:Another theory is that the Awakening is in the Heart, so maybe the Heart is speaking to you, or your sub-consience.

It's more likely that it's Kingdom Hearts, he chooses who will have the keyblade so maybe it teaches the wilder how to use it to, right? The Voice isn't heard because KH talk directly to the wilder heart, cause KH is connected to every hearts in tthe Universe. Well, that's my theory.

Nitrous X Merry Christmas! — I have identified the scent. It is...Christmas! "When did that happen? You were always terrified of Santa before-" Yeah, I agree that Kingdom Hearts has a mind of his/her own ("it" maybe?) and that when he/she/it wants to Kingdom Hearts can speak to the strong hearted ones through the Awakening.

Well, in Sora's awakening the voice is from Ventus and in Ventus awakening the voice is from Sora.Redeemer & Destroyer 05:17, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Name

Where does "Awakening" come from? I ask because Ultimania explicitly calls it "Dive to Heart". In Latin letters, even. Interobangu 06:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

And the Official English BradyGames Strategy Guide calls it "Dive to the Heart". Currently, that's a redirect to this page.--DoorToNothing 06:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll check one more time to be absolutely sure, but:

You know how in KH1, when you save, it lists what world you're in? The mandatory save in the tutorial world lists it as "Awakening".Glorious CHAOS! 07:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, also, after the save circle appears on Aurora's station, you can finally access your menu. It lists the room as "Awakening" as well. Now, both of these are in text, rather than logo, so it's probably the dub name, though the first KH2 Puzzle, which respresents the tutorial area, is named "Awakening" (Mezame), and a section of Roxas's tutorial, the one where you also fight him during the vision in TWTNW, is called "Station of Awakening".

Wait, thinking back, did the KH1 save list the world or the room? It could be possible that the "world" is "Dive to (the) Heart", and the Station of Awakening is just named "Awakening" in KH1. Interrobang, does the Ultimania call it "Dive to Heart" as just a name, or as a logo? Also, since KH2 does display the world name and logo when saving, can either of you check real quick what happens when you save or pause at the Awakening in KH2? I can check tomorrow evening, when I go back home, if you guys can't.Glorious CHAOS! 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Nah, not a logo. Just plain Latin letters. The section header for Dive to Heart isn't in the same format as the others. (Disney Castle gets a section, and it is in the regular format, with a logo and all.) I could check the games, but everything's downstairs and I don't really want to wake up my roommates at so late. Interobangu 07:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I'll check it tomorrow night, then (well, tonight really). Damn, I may have buggered everything buy telling everyone it was the Awakening for so long.Glorious CHAOS! 07:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

KH2 lists it as part of Twilight Town. Since the KH1 save system lists only the room, it would be a fair compromise to all sources to say that "Awakening" is the room, and "Dive to the Heart" is the dubbed world name. Interobangu, could you provide the name in kana, so we can use the nihongo template?Glorious CHAOS! 03:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Voice

Guardian Soul Talk. — Don't I even warrant a hello? It's such a shame. The Organization used to be the rope that bound us together. - 20:16, September 28, 2009 (UTC) I'm unable to find a direct source, but lately numerous people have been saying that it is indeed Mickey's voice in the Awakening. Someone posted this on KHInsider: "Originally Posted by Ultimania 1) Mysterious Voice It’s the King calling to Sora here. In the Dive To Heart, the King guides Sora through his dream, explaining the intentions of the adventure. When Sora acquires the Keyblade for the first time after this (p.95) and just before passing through the last door of The End of The World (p.139), Sora hears a voice reverberate in him that sounds like the King’s. It seems so that those around him understand without hearing, the King speaks to Sora’s heart directly." There's no doubt in my mind that this is true, but we should find a good source to use as a reference and implement this into the article.

A lot of people has been saying that, but because it's changed a lot recently since BBS came out.

One thing they have been saying is that the Voice is Ven. Because supposely Sora is the voice in Ven's Awakening, so I guess it's vice versa? But that's one of the characters that can be the voices, that and Mickey.

Who knows? Maybe we'll learn one day who is the voice, or maybe not.

World or Place

I was wondering maybe the Awakening is a type of world. Cococrash11

I'd probably call it another dimension...... becasue the Awakening doesn't have a link to the World Map, let alone Twilight Town or TWTNW. TNÉ _{je t'♥ mélancolie !} 12:17, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it's a world within people's hearts, hence the "Dive into the Heart".--User:PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart/sig 15:59, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should be put in both place and world. --Cococrash11 07:59, December 13, 2009 (UTC)Cococrash11

Wait, who's who?

RedemptionUltima - What IS he!?! No one's EVER worn the darkness the way that he does! It's impossible! TALK - See my illusion! Did Riku ever go through the Awakening? Cause he was the original chosen one... Don't you need to go through the Awakening to use the keyblade?

He may have gone through the awakening but it was never shown cause it was not necessery.

maggosh Strike backwards... — "That's a nice expression." You're terrified, aren't you? Sign your posts, please.

Don't want to sound rude but why sign?son of a submariner 23:18, December 13, 2009.

maggosh Strike backwards... — "That's a nice expression." You're terrified, aren't you? We need to keep tabs on everyone who posts on the Talk page. Or something like that.

So, not even you now the "why"? right?. Thats OK I don't judge. And don't worry. I won't say anything anymore until Wednesday son of a submariner 23:26, December 13, 2009

The Keyblade's Heart, perhaps?

LOMI, Voice of Nothing Master of Fiction {{{1}}}

BbS: Two Objects

Does anyone else recognize the two objects shown when the Awakening platform shatters?

I'm 95% sure that they're the Kingdom Key (on left, with the 'teeth' end pointing down) and Soul Eater on the right.

Why that would be, I'm not sure. Just like I'm not sure that that's what the two objects are.

Another question: are the two objects there before the shattering, or do they only appear when Ven does?

128.118.40.79 18:53, December 21, 2009 (UTC) TBJ

Also, if you pause the commercial for BbS at about 4 seconds, right when Ven has fallen down past the camera, you can see the vague outline of the Kingdom Key (The yellow guard is the most noticeable part).

Can't see the other one now. If it is Soul Eater, it's too dark to pick it out.

Can I upload this?

I think you can.--Zach 20:08, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't see why it would be a problem. Randomnessity Looks like you're prepared.

I don't mean to be a spoiler or anything but I think this could be helpful too, [1] or this [2]. I'd upload it, but I'm not good at that stuff.--User:NikkieJay

I also found this it could be of some use [3]--NikkieJay 00:58, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

The trivia section has this in it:

In Roxas's Awakening Sora's eyes are closed, showing that he is asleep, while Kairi and Riku's are open, showing that they are awake; strangely, Donald and Goofy's eyes are still open, even though they are asleep as well.

If Goofy and Donald's eyes are still open, then doesn't it just counter the fact that Sora'seyes are closed because he's asleep? It might be just some artistic thing...Should we remove the point?--RyuuseiSoul 00:24, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

The symbolism seems to have been preserved for the first game, and it actually makes sense that Goofy and Donald would be "awake", since Sora was the one still being operated on - Goofy and Donald were "done".Glorious CHAOS! 05:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Awakening to one's Heart

It would seem that the Awakening Station corresponds to the heart of a Keyblade Wielder (or a future one) and the connections it relates to.

• Roxas' Awakening had the form of Sora because he was Sora's other half.
• Ventus's Awakening Pillar only depicted him and an image of the Keyblade Graveyard because he did not know Terra or Aqua back then.
• Sora's Awakening depicted the Seven Princesses of Heart is probably due to his connection to Kairi, which indirectly connected him to them. Or he could've been enburdened with the responsibility to rescue them and the worlds. Not to mention he entered the Station of Awakening once when he was younger; back then it only depicted the Paopu Fruits and the image of Destiny Islands. This states that his early connections to his world.

--Charmed-Jay 10:21, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

It's an interesting theory and it actually makes sense. I think this should be mentioned on the article if everyone agrees.Redeemer & Destroyer 01:58, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Theories, no, a thousand times no, unless they've been certified. We don't want the pages to be flooded with speculation. Agi Idup Agi Ngelaban ! 02:17, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

OK Trois, aren't you overreacting a little? But the theory is quite good, you have to admit.Redeemer & Destroyer 02:20, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not overreacting, it's the Wiki guideline. The theory is substantially good, but until and unless it's proven, we can't put it in. Agi Idup Agi Ngelaban ! 02:23, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why I wrote my theory on the talkpage. This fact has not been speculated, so it can't be published.--Charmed-Jay 07:11, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Better image

Xabryn - I don't care if you're real!You're not better! TALK - It's nice to have darkness on my side.Xabryn 00:10, January 18, 2010 (UTC) it seem good to me. The trivia say that the reason of Sora's eyes aare closeds is cuz of he in asleep, that don't make sense since every character's eye is closed in the awakening

This is almost the exact image, except that I remember that the sky doesn't fade out to yellow in the actual pillar. But it's good, I guess it can be put in. Helping others always comes before asking others for help. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 01:39, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

KrytenKoro - "It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living." TALK - Sorry, I reverted the edit because it messed with the formatting, I didn't notice the image had changed.

Spoiler

Demonic Saint - Ah-hyuck! Did you happen to summon me? TALK - All for one and one for all. - 02:16, January 18, 2010 (UTC) Isn't the image with Ventus and Vanitas technically a spoiler?

Yes, and you know, I seriously don't get it. On one hand they're saying put in the spoilers, and on the other, they're asking for spoilers to be removed. I know the official Wiki stance is to put in the spoilers... There are some things even the stars cannot tell me. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 02:19, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Demonic Saint - Ah-hyuck! Did you happen to summon me? TALK - All for one and one for all. - 02:26, January 18, 2010 (UTC) As long as I remember, the primary reason for Wikis to exist is for people who can't play the games to know what happens and be able to connect the dots (that's what I'm doing, I don't have a PSP) and those who forgot remember, so spoilers are necessary. As long there is a Spoiler Warning it's OK. People are so confusing.

Tell me about it. There are some things even the stars cannot tell me. • TroisNyxÉtienne — 02:44, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ventus's Awakening

File:Ventus's Piller.png

Ventus's Awakening

I saw the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcjR96ME-E#movie_player in 9:53 that Ventus's new pillar had a Keyblade on his hand and the lucky charm picture. So is there a picture of it? Also it seems Ventus's home world is Keyblade Graveyard. --Cococrash11 01:22, January 23, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

That is certainly worth noting (the differences in the two pillars that is).--Lapis ofthe Night 06:56, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Hearts

It seems that the Station are actually Hearts. Ventus even commented that his heart is shattered and this prooves that the station with a missing piece kind of prooves that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUj9_Gbbzdo What do you think? --Cococrash11 03:33, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

I'malways reluctant to put things up that isn't confirmed, so I'd suggest holding off at least until the English-language release so more of us can know what's going on, but from the playthroughs I've seen that seems quite likely.--Lapis ofthe Night 06:51, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Voice Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUj9_Gbbzdo

It seemed that the voice in KHI, KHII, and BBS are Sora's Heart. Since Sora is too young to and even didn't recognize the voice is his own. It seemed that the voice is Sora's inner Heart. --Cococrash11 03:36, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Hmm, seems plausible, but it's also quite vague. It isn't confirmed or obvious enough to be certain, so I don't think it should go in the article.--Lapis ofthe Night 03:49, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't it be Ven's Heart? 24.205.43.42 04:58, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Destiny Island's Awakening

Destiny Islands's Station.

Everyone said its Sora's Awakening. The one in KHII is more likey Sora's true awakening. This awakeing is more likely Destiny Island's heart. It had the Paopu fruit, mushroom, raft, and etc. The back ground even had the island, ocean, and tropical sea. --Cococrash11 03:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Maybe..but it might be the younger Sora's Awakening station.--Xion4ever 03:26, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Why would Destiny Islands need an Awakening? It already had Master Xehanort wake up a long time ago. And Sora didn't have an awakening in KHII.Glorious CHAOS! 03:31, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think Cococrash is talking about the Awakening Station with Sora in it that Roxas came to in KHII. Regardless, I don't think it's Destiny Islands' Awakening.--Lapis ofthe Night 03:37, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe at that time Young Sora's heart is still growing and delevoped into the station in KHII he is still a little kid. I mean how is it even Sora's awakening? I mean it had lots of pictures that invovled with the island and not a single thing that related to Sora. Beside in the Ansem Report Xehanort's Heartless said there are 3 types of heart one is Hearts of Men, Hearts of World, and Kingdom Hearts. Also the island's heart was stolen by the Heartless in the beging of KHI. --Cococrash11 03:57, February 27, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

...The Destiny Islands themed Station appears during Sora's first Awakening. That's all there is to it.Glorious CHAOS! 05:01, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the Awakening changes according to time. In BBS Sora's life was oriented in DI, hence the DI theme. In KH1, it was the Princesses of Heart, sort of like a calling for Sora to save the Princesses of Heart and to put an end to Xehanort's Heartless' plan. And in KH2, it was Sora and friends - his main goal is to bring everyone back together.

@Kryten : Sora's Awakening station is Roxas' Awakening station, technically. Both of them conflict on the same station, remember ? Otherwise priority would probably be given to Sora's actual self, if he ever has a station to his name. The whole point of the Station of Awakening was to give Roxas a hint of who he was dealing with, how this "Sora" was connected to him, and that was all. Or at least, that's how I see it. TROISNYX AMDG 08:55, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

if the awakening is the heart of someone then it must be many awakenings as Sora is connected to everyone he can go to other peoples awakening like the princess of heart awakemingXabryn

Voice Reference

The Note/Reference regarding the "voice" (number 3) needs to be rewritten or removed, since it does not make much sense, especially with the new information from BBS. The "voice" in Ven's Awakening is Sora, and the one in Data Sora's Awakening is Mickey, but there is no way to know or guess whether the one from Sora's and Roxas's Awakenings is anyone we know, or even anyone at all. --Neumannz 07:07, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

While BBS implies that the voice can be any connected heart, I think the point still stands, because of the Final Mix bit:

• "In Final Mix, Riku encounters a similar voice after his body is taken by Ansem, and he identifies it as belonging to Mickey"

It may be a different voice in KH2 (possibly Sora's), which the note needs to make clear, but for the original game, I think the note works. However, it's a bit spurious, so if others agree that they want it gone, we can get rid of it.Glorious CHAOS! 15:09, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Rucario - So I see....... TALK - No, you don't. — 12:59, March 12, 2010 (UTC) I think it should stay, but that's just my opinion

Due to recent revelations....(spoilers)

Now that it is confirmed that Ven and Sora's hearts have indeed fused together, is it not a good idea to assume that Ventus was the mysterious voice that spoke to Sora during certain points of the first game? And if we do indeed assume that, should we edit the page accordingly? 173.212.116.22 20:40, March 25, 2010 (UTC)Xabrin

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 20:51, March 25, 2010 (UTC)   Assuming is almost never a good idea.

Music from BBS

Erry - Let me think about it. TALK - Scherzo Di Notte ~ {{{time}}} I've got the music from BBS, I could cut them short to 30 seconds and add them onto here. Field Theme = Dive into the Heart ~ Destati Battle Theme = Vanitas Final Battle

Dive to the Heart

Why the sudden name change? I didn't see the talk page saying why. --Cococrash11 04:42, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

"Fun Fact"

Fun fact: Donald and Goofy having their eyes open could be explained in the short "How to Haunt a House", in wich a ghost Goofy tries to spook Donald. Donald learned how to sleep with his eyes open, while Goofy... well, is a ghost and therefore can't sleep, or at least in the conventional way.

...should we have this in the article?Glorious CHAOS! 06:08, July 2, 2010 (UTC)