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| '''After Days, I joined the wiki. Now I need to figure out how to play BbS when it comes out...'''}} | | '''After Days, I joined the wiki. Now I need to figure out how to play BbS when it comes out...'''}} |
| {{EO|time=18:26, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Before I go into flashback mode, I'd just like to say to BebopKate that she pretty much covered every issue I had regarding this Wiki which, at the time of my joining, seemed like the ultimate place I wanted to be. Thank you, Bebop, for creating this forum. However, just because it is here, you cannot expect a change. None of us can. Not unless we're all willing to make the commitment to do so. I know that comes easier to some than others. Others won't be willing to change ''at all''. Below, I'll be listing some of my issues with the Wiki and my hopes for the future, as well as my reasons for joining. I know my current and shameful level of respect here will probably get me in trouble for saying some of the things I say below. But friends, I urge you to put aside your personal opinions and prejudices to really THINK! Think about the power and meaning behind my words. Try to find an instance where this is true for you and you can relate. And now, FLASHBACK TIME!
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| It was summer of last year. I came across this Wiki by accident while I was working on a Wetpaint Kingdom Hearts site. I used the Wiki for images and information, but seeing the users working together and seeing all the cool stuff this Wiki had to offer made me want to join. Really badly. But my parents wouldn't let me, so I continued to beg and beg, and finally they cracked. I joined on June 6, 2009, a proud newbie. That was one of the happiest days of my life. True, I got in trouble for messing up page formatting or getting into a fight with an occasional user, but I learned. Most importantly, I made friends with some of the people I now consider the closest to my heart (you know who you are). They taught me the most important lesson of all, and that was how to be a good friend and how being a friend and having a friend felt after my rough, sad past in terms of my social life at school. That summer was one of the best of my life, and the Wiki was still the flexible, friendly place I miss today.
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| When school started, I wasted away looking forward to coming back onto the Wiki after homework was done, when I could socialize on the then-recently-set-up IRC. I vented my problems. I got to know even more users. Most importantly, I was able to apply what I learned in terms of socializing with others and having friends to my life at school. That certainly made Freshman year a little better for me. So what if my shoulder to cry on lived half way around the world? So what? It didn't matter to me. Unfortunately, it was about late summer-early winter when the Wiki I had grown to love started transforming into a monstrous living hell that was no better than school. True, I hung onto some friends, but I lost many others. People I look at today and think either "If only..." or "What happened?".
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| It was bad enough when the policy not to allow fan-images on the Wiki was enforced. Little did I know that would start us down our descent into the dark, endless abyss. One we're still falling into now. I don't recall any other policies that were set up, but I can ensure that they were done mainly by a certain group of users without others' consent, and when they were encountered about it, they denied being at fault or they stated the Wiki was a hierarchy, not a democracy like it was founded upon. Community didn't matter to those users. Only they mattered. Only they mattered to themselves. Or the users chose to favor certain other users, casting down the ideas of others just because they didn't like them. They began undoing good edits just because they didn't like what they saw, because it wasn't their style. You want to know what the Wiki and these users became after these events started and continued to transpire? Read Animal Farm. Consider the users I just mentioned the pigs, since one user ruled the entire Wiki although they denied it and had another and second-in-command brainwash us all, the rest of us not at fault and the victims of these specific users the other animals, as we suffer from the ways of the "pigs" and how they tamper with rules behind our backs. I personally think of myself as Boxer. Always working harder, trying to impress the higher authority. Always working harder to no avail, and reaching the point where it ends up destroying me. I've grown to hate what this Wiki's become. I don't hate it, but what it's become. I don't hate the users I just referenced to, I hate what they've become. I can't Wiki-break, because I'm drawn to this place. Sort of like school is your sanctuary if you have home problems and vice versa, this Wiki was and was supposed to be a sanctuary from both. But now I can't even come on here without wondering "What miraculous, once-accepted edit will I make today and spend two hours doing that will be undone today?". And now, the IRC is just as worse. I don't pay attention to the main channel anymore due to recent transpirings and the fact I prefer to just PM my dearly beloved friends, but I've heard the stories and seen both the Wiki and IRC drama increase ten-fold. Really makes me wonder why I bother with this place, and it really makes me start to sympathize with late admin and sub-Wiki-founder Azul81677. He left his position because he hated what the place he had worked so hard on to restore from the mess it was two years ago had become.
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| I once thought my dream of this place was to be a well-respected, well-liked staff member who had some position on this Wiki. Now I'm not so sure. While that would be another blessing, I think now my dream is to see it restored to what it once was, even though I never got to see but a small glimpse of it, too short a time after I first joined. I'd love to be able to converse freely again. I'd love to be able to use talk pages for any purpose again, to have my edits accepted for what they are, which are good and nearly flawless edits, and not have them tampered with. I'd love for even the users I just mentioned to look at me and say "Hey, that ENX guy is a good editor." But it's obvious now that this dream will never come true. Not so long as we remain blind. Not so long as we remain in this dark age. I've heard users conversing over attempting to revolutionize the Wiki, restoring it back to what it was in its hayday. But what's the point when they'll just be shot down in the end? I'm not saying allow chaos to rule the Wiki, but anything is better than what it is like now. As many previously said, this is a Wiki I used to love about a stupid video game, for cripe's sake. I joined because I thought I'd love it, love the community, and be able to make the site better. And now, what I get instead is the fact that my life's drama is doubled because of affairs on this place! We all strive for perfection on this Wiki, and it is the fact that we all strive for it but have different ways of achieving that perfection that doesn't match the styles of others where we meet conflict. Friends, and I put aside now all grudges I've beared against users or past affairs here that caused me pain such as stuff I didn't agree with when I say this, we forget one very important thing. We forget that NOTHING is perfect. No matter how hard we try, NOTHING WILL EVER BE PERFECT! I've suffered too much in life to have to deal with all the drama this place has granted me. I ask myself on the roughest of nights asking "Why?! Why must I go through this?! Why did I ever bother joining that stupid site?!" But I immediately feel ashamed for thinking such thoughts. Ashamed that I am forced by people just like me who I've never even personally met to think those thoughts. Right now, we persue a lost cause. This Wiki will NEVER be perfect. Not if each of us tries to strive for that perfection on our own. We're all similar people because we share a common interest or deal with similar problems. We all have that one close Wiki-friend. We all have that one user we just can't stand. But why can't we just join hands and strive for perfection as a team? This may sound humorous and those of you who are close to me may know I like to make jokes, but I'm saying this with the upmost of seriousness. There is no "i" in "team." We ARE a team. That's why I beg and urge us all now, for my sake and the sakes of all of us here and those of the next generation, that we join hands and do all in our power to change the things that BebopKate brought up above. I'm willing to try, stop complaining, and give up my many other flaws demonstrated here to the best of my ability. But what about you? I cannot decide things for you, but in a perfect world, I know you would agree to do the same. This Wiki now has a reputation of doing the wrong thing. So let's start by doing the right thing. I, along with several others, would love nothing more than to start anew and bring peace and fun back to this Wiki like it once had. But in the end, the only one who can make that difference is YOU. Not your best friend, not Tetsuya Nomura, not some spiky-haired brat with a giant key, but YOU! PLEASE make the right choice! TOGETHER, NOT ALONE, WE CAN DO THIS!}}
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| {{Riku's Love|time=18:39, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text= I never gopt into any of the forums stuff and i have never tried to get hooked either. But i did cause of the preople here. Most of the users here are great friends or in my case a brother. This wiki cause got me to actually waanna fisnish a game. Thats why i have borrowed my brothers' Ds'd after i broke my third onw. I got a psp because of BbS. I hope no one else leaves its great here and i love ya'll!}} | | {{Riku's Love|time=18:39, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text= I never gopt into any of the forums stuff and i have never tried to get hooked either. But i did cause of the preople here. Most of the users here are great friends or in my case a brother. This wiki cause got me to actually waanna fisnish a game. Thats why i have borrowed my brothers' Ds'd after i broke my third onw. I got a psp because of BbS. I hope no one else leaves its great here and i love ya'll!}} |
| {{KrytenKoro|If not wanting persistent fan-art on the Paopu Fruit, Final Form, Fresh Breeze, Xehanort's Keyblade, Vanitas's Keyblade, etc. articles makes me a communist...then comrade, I love Mother Russia.}} | | {{Chitalian8|time=02:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text= Alright guys. I am a new guy to this wiki. I am not as skilled in editing as other people. I can't write as good descriptions as Lapis, I'm not good with pictures like Xiggie. I'm just a User trying to be a good asset to the wiki. I think that this wiki is great on the mainspace. Articles are great looking, and people can tell that this is a high quality wiki. I joined this wiki with high hopes. I just wish that there wasn't so much drama going on. Like BK said, this is a wiki, a place for entertainment. This isn't Gossip girl, this is a wiki about Disney characters and Keys and Light Doors and whatnot. I agree with KKD, the standards of this wiki are at an all time low.}} |
| {{EO|time=20:01, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=When I brought up the bit about the fan-art policy, I meant in regards to users being allowed to upload things to their user pages. I'm totally against allowing it in articles, just as you are. But were we to allow fan-art to be uploaded again ONLY FOR USER PURPOSES, then we'd have to set up some sort of policy. We'd have to set up policies on anything we decided to bring back, but TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY!}}
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| {{The Inexistent|text='''Beautifully said up there, ENX, beautifully said.'''}}
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| <center>'''''--MOVED--'''''</center>
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| {{KrytenKoro|Ooookay. This is starting to turn into an argument, and spoiling the whole "peace, love, and flowers" vibe we were going for here. Is it okay if you two move your wall-o-texts to the talk page or your own talk pages, or summat?
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| Re Flowers and related vegetation: Personally, I like pumpkins, though oranges taste best.}}
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| {{DTN|time=21:49, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=My thoughts/worry exactly, moved.
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| Re:Re Flower and related vegetation: plums and pears, woo.}}
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| {{The Inexistent|text='''Kryten, which two?'''}}
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| {{KrytenKoro|DTN and ENX's wall-o-text battleships. It's no biggie.}}
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| {{TNE|time=02:05, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Userspace is userspace ; remember the PG liberty rule ? 'Long as it's not offensive and reflects the user, it should be up, ''n'est-ce pas'' ? Quite a number of users have started projects on userspace which were discontinued over time, either by volition or by order - but these projects have a certain quality to them, a quality which I'd call original.
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| And... Sea Salt Ice Cream floats, anyone ? I've got plenty to go around. ^_^}}
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| {{The Inexistent|text='''Yes please! Now, how to get it to America without melting..^_-'''}}
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| {{TNE|time=02:44, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Assume that we're all in the same room. : )}}
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| {{The Inexistent|text='''But... I don't... have a spoon... </offtopic>'''}}
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| {{KKD|time=04:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|roxas2=Okay, after BK's approval, I'm finally gonna post my essay.
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| I apologize in advance for the wall of text you are about to see. I wrote this a few days ago, as requested by TNE. She wanted to collect opinions from as many regular users as she could, to initiate something like this. Seeing as how Kate beat her to the punch, I may as well post it here.
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| Let me start by saying this: Our wiki needs to undergo some serious changes soon, or we may have a large-scale conflict on our hands. I’ve got four points that can’t be stressed enough.
| | {{BebopKate|time=02:27, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=Yeah. The conversation has evolved a bit... -_- |
| ''“All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.” –James Howell''
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| '''Point #1: Our wiki is no fun anymore.'''
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| Starting off with that is to say that this wiki has lost its fun side (understatement of the year). Wikia was originally intended to be a place evenly balanced with work and fun, not simply a place for work. Whenever a group of users tries to implement some fun into the wiki (The mirage arena, etc.) it gets shut down. The Forum Bye-Bye, Mirage Arena is a perfect example of this, as that forum was created four days after the Arena opened its doors. Not only did it try to kill a premature idea, it also left nothing to the imagination, essentially saying that it was a detriment to the wiki and it must go immediately. Other occurrences of this have taken place, but that’s for later. Talk pages are being frowned upon at the moment, for the reason that sociable talk page use supposedly “clogs” the Recent Changes list, and lead to unneeded growth of the wiki in the (apparently) “wrong direction”. Even the IRC channel, our main source of socialization, is in jeopardy, because some users are calling it “The cesspool of the wiki”, and are calling for it’s destruction. The closest thing we have to any community or fun is the votes for featured media. A user from the Final Fantasy Wiki, Faethin, even stated something along the lines of “What’s up with KHW? It’s way too serious business.”. If that’s how people from the outside see us, that is definitely not a good thing.
| | But the entire discussion up there is pretty much a summary of everything I've been hearing over the last two weeks. The staff is too controlling! So-and-so won't stop socializing and causing drama! The IRC is...well, let's leave IRC out of this for the moment. That's a whole different ball game right now. |
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| Stuff like the Mirage Arena and user badges can benefit the wiki! Metaphorically, if the workers aren’t happy, nothing’s gonna get done. Both of these are an incentive to editing, and there’s proof that user badges increase productivity. Sure, they may seem like insignificant images to some people, but to others, they could be the coolest thing since sliced bread. Many big-name wikis have userbadges. How do you think they got that way? Happy editors. The badges are a little pat on the back, and prove effective in the long run.
| | But you see why I wanted you guys to look carefully at why you are here. |
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| The Mirage Arena started out with a few stumbles, but we can get it up and running with a little hard work. The rules need fixing, and the editcount rule needs to be worked on, but if we put our heart and soul into it, we’ll get back what we put in tenfold.
| | I see some users who are here because they want to help organize a wiki on a video game. I see others who are here for accomplishment and praise. Still others who want to socialize. None of those things are bad in and of themselves...it's when people begin viewing them as the ONLY reason to be here we have a conflict. |
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| ''“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –John Dalberg-Acton''
| | 1.The editors: Yes, the main reason we are here is the wiki. That mainspace ain't going to edit itself. But there are people behind the edits. Thinking, living, flawed people. In our case, mostly fairly young people as well, who are still growing and learning. Remembering the people behind the manners and offers to help will get everyone much farther than accusations and stealth edits. |
| '''Point #2: There is way too much power in the hands of our admins, and some of them need to get off of their high horses.'''
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| Our admins… Great as they may be, there is way too much power in their hands, and some of it is power that shouldn’t be in the hands of a select group of people. According to Wikipedia’s page on Wikia administrators, Administration is not a position of power, but a position of trust, with the abilities to delete and ban/block privileges that come with the trust. These powers should never be used to gain upper hand in a dispute, and unfortunately, they are used in that way countless times. In a nutshell, they are regular users, just like you and me. As a position of trust, this gives them next to no authority over other users, meaning that a vote from a user is worth just as much as an admin’s. One instance of this abuse of power is this:
| | 2.The achievers: Yes, we do praise and notice those who do good work. It's only natural and pretty common in any social situation. Granted, some work gets noticed more than others; a huge section of new info is a striking difference versus fixing a few links and grammar errors. Both are important to the wiki, I think most of us realize that, and it really is a shame we don't always take time to say it. But if you are motivated to edit or post just to be recognized or become one of the "bigwigs", or think it's the only reason to be here, please rethink your priorities. |
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| <User> So, a user and I were thinking about userbadges, and how they could benefit the amount of edits we get.
| | 3.The chatters, the talkers, the princesses: the socializers are very good at getting things done as a group, at organizing projects and people and helping the communication around the wiki. It's when they ''only'' talk that others feel annoyed or angry; the fact is, wikis are great mediums for communication, but they're primarily for information, and it gets hard to sort that information with a lot of activity around. There are thousands of places to socialize on the internet, but there are very few ''Kingdom Hearts'' wikis. |
| <Admin> No. They'd be editing for the wrong reason. End of discussion.
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| <User> I think I'll get a few more voices before I let this die.
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| <Admin> Actually, I think I just closed this topic.
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| <User>I'm not going to let the opinions of one user let this die.
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| <Admin> Whatever
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| Unfortunately, some of our admins are under the impression that this power lets them say whatever they want to, make conversation or proposal-ending decisions, and that their word is law. However, as stated before, that is not, and cannot be the case, unless the suggestion in question is vandalism or taking away from userspace and mainspace simultaneously.
| | I think most everyone here fits into one of those three groups, perhaps two. The question I ask now is: think about where you fit in. How can you take your type (or types) and make it work with the others?}} |
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| Many users also fear or kiss-up to the Administrators, believing that if they are in said admin’s “good books”, that they will have better chances of “making it” on the KHW. From a user’s standpoint, this is one rumor that has been spread, and is commonly believed, and followed. Users (such as myself) also notice changes in atmosphere when an admin joins in on the IRC or a forum. For example, Let’s say the IRC has a fun atmosphere at the moment. If (username censored) were to join, it would immediately change to a dark and serious one. I have first-handedly witnessed people completely changing around admins, saying things such as “I hate (insert admin name here). He/she’s such a jerk, and he/she’s no fun.” But once the admin in question rolls around, and the subject of userbashing (or something similar) comes up, they completely change, either out of fear or to kiss up. I feel that admins shouldn’t instill fear into the regular users, but be warm and kind towards them, and not look down on them, but see them as equals.
| | {{Auror Andrachome|text=<s>By the controlling staff, I think you mean DTN</s> By your statement that the admins know everything and are better than average users was quite rude. Not trying to start something, but...............you know better than me.}} |
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| ''“Work Hard, Play Hard” – Australian Proverb''
| | {{LapisScarab|time=02:41, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=Auror, enough with the user-bashing.}} |
| '''Point #3: Our Administration should consider splitting up.'''
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| It’s kind of obvious that our mainspace and userspace have trouble co-existing. There are many users tied to mainspace, who do nothing else, and vice-versa. However, the Administration is not so. We have admins like who are our hard-hitters in mainspace. However, they tend to go against most things that have to do with the userspace, such as the Mirage Arena or the Blogs (however, the latter was removed by a vote.). Likewise, there are the staffers of the people, who aim to keep the users happy and deal with issues pertaining to userspace. As a vice-versa of what was stated before, these types of admins tend to stray away from mainspace, opposing the growth of it. No offense intended to either party, but it becomes a little chaotic when the two mix, such as a mainspace-oriented admin working in userspace, or vice-versa. The thing is, the admins have “specialized” in what section of the wiki they cover, and they tend to chain themselves to it, unintentionally bringing the attitude of the space they specialize in with them when they cross the line between community and mainspace.
| | {{BebopKate|time=02:42, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=The plural form in point two refers to the wiki as a whole, not staff members.}} |
| That’s not good at all, because the mainspace tends to be solid and down-to-business, while the userspace tends to be carefree and fun. Those two don’t mix very well.
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| The point of this section is suggesting that we designate admins and mods to mainspace and userspace specifically, because the two don’t mix. It may work better to have two separate groups covering these sections of the wiki altogether. With two separate entities, we may find ourselves a little more at peace.
| | {{The Inexistent|text='''I can see this coming, and, although I don't know how it may work, or what it may be about, or if you guys will even end up reading this, I can see only one solution: Project:Community.'''}} |
| | {{Xion4ever|time=19:02, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=First, kudos to Kate for creating this forum! Now for my reason for joining the wiki: |
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| ''“Why can’t we be friends?” – War''
| | I was a fan of ''Kingdom Hearts'', just like the rest of you. I played the games to completion and then some, had a few discussions here and there with some Elementary school friends and such. However, in my later school years I couldn't find people who shared my love of the game. While others talked about pointless "drama", I was busy daydreaming about music and video games. So, after a few years of looking around the internet, I ran across this place. I saw the happy community and discussions and thought, 'Wow, those people are having fun.' ...Fun. Over a video game! A video game, something others use as mindless lesisure time! That passion and dedication, to write and talk about a video game they enjoy and make this Wiki the best it can be, is what brought me here. |
| '''Point 4: Our IRC needs to learn to co-exist or get lost.'''
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| Let’s face it. The IRC, our biggest socialization tool, is turning into a cesspool. It’s being constantly spammed, trolled, every last thing in the book. There have been threats (far from hollow) to disown the IRC from our wiki, and that is a reality that may soon come. Things need to be changed big time. Rules need to be followed, ops need to be constantly present (I can recall at least three times where there have been trolls and no op there to take care of him/her), and people need to learn to co-exist. The IRC is in a downward spiral, and if it doesn’t get fixed, it’ll be gone.
| | Although we've all had our rough times here on the Wiki/IRC, I, for one, have loved my time here. I wouldn't give up my memories/time spent on here with the great community/staff/video game, for anything. Nice job, everyone. ^_^}} |
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| However, with the leaving of the IRC brings back more abuse of the talk pages, which we have far too much of already. Right now, I believe that the IRC is a necessary evil, but one that can be easily remedied, with patience and care. Perhaps with a little more structure, we could get this thing to work.
| | {{The Inexistent|text='''The Inexistent claps for finally seeing a a heartwarming addition to this conversation.'''}} |
| | {{Yuanchosaan|time=08:48, August 4, 2010 (UTC) |
| | |text=Cheers, Kate. |
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| Another thing I’ve noticed is that a few of the ops refuse to admit their mistakes. For example, let’s say that there are 2 ops in the channel, NumberXVMoogle, and a few users. Op 1 breaks the bot abuse rule by spamming kitty multiple times. A user brings up the fact that the op should receive a warning. Op 1 will immediately deny it, or completely ignore it. If he/she denies it, they will change the rules in their favor (say that the rule for bot abuse is 5 instances in 3 minutes, the Op will change the rule to whatever he/she hadn’t gone over). If op 1 ignores it, Op 2 will come in to defend Op 1, and possibly penalize the user who suggested that Op 1 should receive a warning. By doing so, they broke a few rules there (I’ve even seen instances of said Op drastically changing the subject when he/she realizes that they could be penalized or made look bad, with Op oh.2 going along with it. Said user persists, and would receive an unfair warning.) If this is brought up later, they will deny everything.
| | I had just started editing on the FF wiki. Azul noticed that I had played the KH series, and invited me over to edit. He's also the reason why I'm on the KH wiki IRC.}} |
| | {{TNE|time=13:47, August 4, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=No kidding, Yuan ? :D It was Azul ? Wow. |
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| In conclusion, our wiki needs to go through some drastic changes. We need to find the fun, Admins need to learn their place and extent of their power, we should consider governing userspace and mainspace separately, and the IRC needs a facelift.
| | And cheers, Xion. ^_^}} |
| I thank whoever took the time to read this, and I hope you take these things into your thoughts. <small>I think this may take the cake for biggest wall of text. I'll move it when need be.</small>}}
| | {{EO|time=14:15, August 4, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=The fact that those walls of text were moved does not erase the fact that they were created. We should link to the page where they are now contained somewhere in the forum. Regardless, let's keep the sunshine and lollipops attitdue alive as we waltz hand-in-hand into a shining future!}} |
| | [[Forum:Wiki Thoughts - Please Read/Statements]]{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}14:21, August 4, 2010 (UTC) |
| | {{TNE|time=14:52, August 4, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=/cue ''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XgXKmxUnek Yume No Mirai]''}} |