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Talk:No Heart: Difference between revisions
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==Untitled== | |||
''Despite the recent inclusion of '''No Heart''' in ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix'', this page should '''only be used for discussion related to the article'''. Any discussions related to simply the game itself should be held in the forums, and will be removed from this page if posted.'' | ''Despite the recent inclusion of '''No Heart''' in ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix'', this page should '''only be used for discussion related to the article'''. Any discussions related to simply the game itself should be held in the forums, and will be removed from this page if posted.'' | ||
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{{Chitalian8|time=01:47, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|text= Slimmed down? Not at all. Compare the 2 pictures. | {{Chitalian8|time=01:47, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|text= Slimmed down? Not at all. Compare the 2 pictures. | ||
[[File:Armored | [[File:Xemnas (Armored Controller) KHII.png|200px]] | ||
[[File: | [[File:No Heart KHBBSFM.png|150px]] | ||
I think you'll find that they are exactly alike. | I think you'll find that they are exactly alike. | ||
}} | }} | ||
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Do we have any confirmation that it is a simulation of Master Xehanort? Because the Journal entry does say that his identity is unclear so wouldn't that mean that it may not be MX? If we have a confirmation then forget that I said anything and go on with the merging--[[User:Xabryn|Xabryn]] 00:39, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | Do we have any confirmation that it is a simulation of Master Xehanort? Because the Journal entry does say that his identity is unclear so wouldn't that mean that it may not be MX? If we have a confirmation then forget that I said anything and go on with the merging--[[User:Xabryn|Xabryn]] 00:39, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:The only thing I see that links him to Xehanort is that he wields his Keyblade and his armor is identical to the armor of Xehanort's Nobody, Xemnas. I don't think this should be merged either. --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 02:18, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
While I ''would'' say No Heart is a sim of Master Xehanort, as it uses his Keyblade and armor that can only be his, the connection is not explicit enough for me to justify the merge. | |||
Actually, on further reflection, it might make more sense for it to be a sim of post-merge Xehanort, or possibly of MX in his prime. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:26, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Nomura said it. He said that he wanted the bosses in, but put them in Mirage Arena so they could just be data simulations that wouldn't impact the overall plot like the Unknown and Vanitas Remnant do.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:55, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
I'm against merging this page as well as merging Armor of the Master with Eraqus. They are indeed simulations of other characters. But unlike the Absent Silhouettes and the like, these are given journal entries with their own names. These characters do not appear in these forms in any other occurrence and while it is true they're the same character in many ways, they are quite unique and distinct. Merging these would be like Merging Vanitas Remnant and Vanitas. Vanitas Remnant is obviously still Vanitas to some extent but they're quite separate as far as how the game encounters go. And they both have their own distinct journal entries as well. I oppose this merge. --<!--[[File:Terra-Ansem.png|13px]]-->'''[[User:iZerox|<font color=darkred><big>i</big><small></small></font>]][[User talk:iZerox|<font color=orange><big>Zerox</big><small></small></font>]]'''[[File:Lea_Frisbee.png|30px]] 03:38, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Well, to build on that, No Heart is even more different from MX than AotM is from Eraqus, if you consider fighting styles. AotM, at least, builds on many of Eraqus's attacks from his boss battle<!--and the Lingering Will, it looks like--> in its own battle, but No Heart's style doesn't resemble either MX's or Terra-Xehanort's fighting styles, or anyone else's, as far as I can tell. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 03:52, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:He does use Dark Volley and the Keyblade storms, for one. There's more, but I put it on AotM's talk page.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:52, February 6, 2011 (UTC) | |||
==No Heart≠MX or not== | |||
{{Xabryn|text=Okay this has gone far enough, we are not sure if No Heart is MX saying otherwise is speculation and the wiki is against speculation.}} | |||
{{ErryTalk|time=22:29, 24 June 2011 (EDT)|edea=Have you any proof against that?}} | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=00:32, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|text=Burden of proof is on us, not Xabryn. We need sources to prove that No Heart is MX's armor.}} | |||
:[[Talk:Armor of the Master#Merging]]. We know for an absolute fact that it is MX's armor, because it is later worn by Xemnas, and is Keyblade Armor. The journal does not explicitly say "Master Xehanort in his Keyblade Armor", no, but at a certain point we are just being euphemistic-ostriches here.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:08, 25 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
{{Xabryn|text=We have no proof that it is MX's yes Xemnas worn it later but from what I know Xemnas is Terra's body not MX's besides the Armor has the nobody symbol which comes from Terra's memories about the way he sits it Xemnas has both Terra's and MX memories and sits the same way as MX he uses MX's keyblade but as Xemnas's page says he may be able to use a Keyblade just chose not to and I could go on and on abour what No heart has to do which Xemnas but instead all i'm going to say is everything we have that points to MX also points to other character so no we don't have enough proof that it is MX's keyblade armor which makes it speculation to say otherwise}} | |||
I have no place here, but you know, Xabryn, that if it is Xemnas (which I doubt) it just further down the connection with Master Xehanort? As Xemnas have MX memories, and probably soul as well. Now, I am off.--'''[[User:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=black><big>Dark-En</big>]][[User talk:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=gray><big>igmaXIII</big>]]</font></font> 09:08, 25 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
{{Xabryn|text=I'm not saying that No Heart is Xemnas i'm saying that we're not sure if it is MX, and Xemnas is Xehanort's nobody and Xehanort is made of both Terra and MX not one but two hearts so maybe the Keyblade Armor is Xehanort the new entity made from both Terra and MX, and again I'm not saying that No Heartt is Xehanort but that we're not sure if it is MX}} | |||
{{Chitalian8|time=09:46, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|talk= Even if it is Terra's body, it's not his Keyblade Armor. And what you're talking about with Xemnas choosing not to use a Keyblade, that's kinda going against your own point. He had to have used a Keyblade, as it's Keyblade Armor created by Master Xehanort's Keyblade.}} | |||
{{Xabryn|text=We don't know how a Keyblade Wielder get a Keyblade armor so your last statment doesn't make much sense, yes it is Terra's body but the nobody is [[Xehanort]]'s a new entity made from both Terra and MX's hearts.}} | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=14:32, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|text=Aren't No Heart and the Armor of the Master data replicas? If so, the argument isn't really about who's literally in the armor, but rather whose armor it's based on. | |||
@Kryten: Hasn't our policy always been that we need an actual source or irrefutable proof? As much as it makes sense, saying that No Heart is MX's armor is still just an assumption. It's identical to armor Xemnas wore, but MX was never seen wearing his armor. The only connections it has to MX are the Keyblade and Xemnas using it. It's a very ''good'' assumption, but we've raised hell about speculation everywhere else, and there's no reason to change here. }} | |||
::It has. Xehanort's. Name. That's proof. As for the claim that it could be Terra, that's ridiculous. The only difficulty/question here is "where did it come from?", and Nomura specifically wrote it as a data simulation so that THAT QUESTION WOULDN'T NEED AN ANSWER. It has Xehanort's name, it has Xehanort's Keyblade, it has Xehanort's attacks from the Graveyard battle, its arena is based off of where Xehanort fought Eraqus, and Xehanort later wears the armor as Xemnas. It is '''''not''''' speculation to say that it is a copy of Xehanort in his armor.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:35, 25 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=19:02, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|text=The name and design of the armor estabalishes a definite connection to Xehanort, but it does ''not'' '''prove''' that it actually is his armor. I don't care where it came from. This is like the "Jesse McCartney is voicing Ventus" thing. It would be totally unexpected and titanically stupid for what you're saying to be untrue, but that doesn't change the fact that it's speculative. All we ''know'' about No Heart is the information given in its Journal entry, unless Nomura says otherwise in the interview you mentioned on the Armor of the Master talk page. I don't see a link to that interview, so I can't know. Everything else you're saying about it, as well-reasoned as it is, is a pure conjecture.}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|Fine. Then we do the same for Armor of the Master. | |||
On that note, do we have any explicit claim that the Unknown at the beginning of CoM was Marluxia?}} | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=20:55, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|text=I would assume seeing Marluxia taking off his hood would be enough, but I haven't played it in a while. From the shape of the cloak it's clearly not Larxene, Lexaeus, Axel, Vexen, or Zexion. | |||
EDIT: For the record, I'm just trying to keep consistent to the policy we've had in the past. I don't think this is something that ruins the article at all by staying, but if we let this through then we can't say "absolutely no speculation". More like "speculation if it can be sufficiently proven".}} | |||
{{Xabryn|text=He does use Marluxia's petals in the beggining and I'm almost sure that they have rhe same voice actor in Re:CoM but aside from this I don't think we have anything that explicit claim that the Unknown in CoM was Marluxia maybe the ultimania or an interview may provide more info}} | |||
Whoawhoawhoa. Regarding the Jesse McCartney thing that Lapis brought up, I'd say that's a different case. Voices can be easily imitated. Look at Bret Iwan doing Mickey, I couldn't tell him apart from Wayne Allwine. However, we can use given evidence to prove that No Heart is, in fact, MX's armor. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 22:22, 25 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=22:51, 25 June 2011 (EDT)|text=And that's part of my point. If we're going to say "absolutely 100% no speculation" like we have in the past, then that's just not going to slide as proof. Nothing we know prooves 100% what No Heart is. If we're going to keep the article as it is now, then we'd need to change that policy a bit.}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|The fact that his name is "No Heart", which Nomura has explicitly said is Xehanort's name-meaning, is enough for me, even ignoring the fact that it's Xehanort's armor, Keyblade, and attacks. But if we're going as far as "if you can't see their face, or Nomura doesn't say it specifically, it's an Unknown", then that would apply to CoM Marluxia too. There is no identifying information for him, besides in the non-canon manga -- the assumption that he is Marluxia is down to process of elimination, not anything explicit.}} | |||
{{Xabryn|text=Would it really make that much of difference to change Marluxia in CoM to Unknown? I mean aside from [[The Unknown (disambiguation)|this page]] we don't mention him being the Unknown we see a the beginning of CoM anywhere else. | |||
Edit:10:01, 2 July 2011 (EDT) oh, and also I think that Marluxia's case as the Unknown is different since we have some story as base, the Unknown use Marluxia's petals has his voice and knows Axel, not to mention that in CoM he is the only character to appear hooded.}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|The irony is staggering. | |||
There's no explicit word from Nomura that "The CoM Unknown is Marluxia". This is the credit you are using to say "We don't know if No Heart is based on Master Xehanort's armor", and it is in fact a stronger claim than the latter. If No Heart goes, then CoM Unknown ''absolutely'' goes.}} | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=13:45, 2 July 2011 (EDT)|text=Whatever, I'll go with that. I withdraw my argument.}} | |||
{{Xabryn|text=Oh for crying out loud, ALL the info we got that points to MX also points to other characters, we can't be sure of anything unless Nomura give us MX wearing the armor or he says that the armor belong to him. Besides all I said was that I THINK that Marluxia case is different due to the fact that the Unknown in CoM actually have some story, some voice, and the hints we have on him only points to one character. But fine do whatever you want. I give up}} | |||
{{CaelumLucisCaliga|time=17:07, 2 July 2011 (EDT)|confusion=In Re:CoM, the Unknown's voice is Marluxia's, the outfit looks most like Marluxia's, and pink petals appear around him. If we're talking about '''''strictly''''' CoM, then I'd seriously doubt Nomura would just change the characters ''cause he feels like it.''}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|Again, those are the ''exact'' points, not including the name and later use of the armor, that you are saying are not enough to validate No Heart. If we absolutely must be hardlined about this, then I'll give up and wait until the next Ultimania confirms it, but ''this street goes both ways''.}} | |||
== Is indicated to be Young Xehanort, not Old Xehanort == | |||
[http://www.mediafire.com/download/vf01a910fdv9xo4/xehanort+exp+record+%28full+size+translated%29.png Source].{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:43, 31 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
:KH3 Ultimania: | |||
:ーWhat was the true identity of No Heart, who appeared in KH BbS FM? | |||
:Nomura: That was also Master Xehanort. That was the armour he used to wear a long time ago, and in this game he was wearing his current armour. | |||
So should this be merged into Xehanort with Game: No Heart added to the suite? --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 20:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
:I don't think so. It's treated as an armor battle.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:56, 4 March 2019 (UTC) | |||