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Talk:Kingdom Hearts II: Difference between revisions
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*Retaliation Value, AKA "Revenge Value": | *Retaliation Value, AKA "Revenge Value": | ||
**Revenge Value is a VERY common fan-speak term, but I'm here trying (yeah I doubt I am cause someone might pop up to refute me) to be technical here (I pray). This notes towards the values each attack landed on a boss that will raise an invisible counter that causes them to reach Retaliation Point. Via most hard tables that can be found through google, the most common value for many bosses is 12.5. Each attack has their own value in raising up to the counter point, with most normal attacks being around 1, and most finishers being around 3 (Explosion is around 4 or 5, so there's a lot risk with that finisher). Thus, many expert players tend to try and limit themselves to certain abilities only in order to keep track of the Retaliation Value on the bosses they're fighting so they can know when they reach counter point. Some abilities, like the infamous Ars Arcanum in KHIIFM, has 0 value on all blows save for the final reaction command which has 9.5 (Sora's solo Trinity Limit has 0 RV on ALL hits of the attack), so abilities like that are quite good at racking up so much damage in a large loop of hits without fear of reaching retaliation point. The RV "gauge" for most bosses may or may not start at a certain number, but once they reach their counter point, the invisible gauge will reset each time. There are some mod emulator hacks that can allow you to view the Retaliation Value in the form of Sora's HP staying low and filling up as he raises the value, via one of Bl00dyBizkitz's videos. And via Bl00dyBizkitz, he states that all Data Replica bosses have their invisible RV gauge filled at 9.5 at the start of the battle, and in most normal conditions, only causing a counter point would lower the gauge let alone reset it. | **Revenge Value is a VERY common fan-speak term, but I'm here trying (yeah I doubt I am cause someone might pop up to refute me) to be technical here (I pray). This notes towards the values each attack landed on a boss that will raise an invisible counter that causes them to reach Retaliation Point. Via most hard tables that can be found through google, the most common value for many bosses is 12.5. Each attack has their own value in raising up to the counter point, with most normal attacks being around 1, and most finishers being around 3 (Explosion is around 4 or 5, so there's a lot risk with that finisher). Thus, many expert players tend to try and limit themselves to certain abilities only in order to keep track of the Retaliation Value on the bosses they're fighting so they can know when they reach counter point. Some abilities, like the infamous Ars Arcanum in KHIIFM, has 0 value on all blows save for the final reaction command which has 9.5 (Sora's solo Trinity Limit has 0 RV on ALL hits of the attack), so abilities like that are quite good at racking up so much damage in a large loop of hits without fear of reaching retaliation point. The RV "gauge" for most bosses may or may not start at a certain number, but once they reach their counter point (normal or forced), the invisible gauge will reset back to 0 each time. There are some mod emulator hacks that can allow you to view the Retaliation Value in the form of Sora's HP staying low and filling up as he raises the value, via one of Bl00dyBizkitz's videos. And via Bl00dyBizkitz, he states that all Data Replica bosses have their invisible RV gauge filled at 9.5 at the start of the battle, and in most normal conditions, only causing a counter point would lower the gauge let alone reset it. | ||
*Desperation Move: | *Desperation Move: | ||
**This is when the screen turns dark via the background and the boss seems to do some devastating power up or attack of some sort. These are moves that only occur when they reach a low amount of health, and it all varies for each boss. Of course, | **This is when the screen turns dark via the background and the boss seems to do some devastating power up or attack of some sort. These are moves that only occur when they reach a low amount of health, and it all varies for each boss. Of course, they all HURT very badly, so if on Proud or Critical Mode DM's can really be nasty enough to warrant the use of invincible bypasses of any sort. Some of the most common ways to avoid most DM's is to use Donald's Comet/Fantasia limit and delay it so that you may not only move around freely, but also stay invincible for a long amount of time. However, there ARE some DM's that have more unique ways of being avoided, and again, this HEAVILY varies for each boss. Some bosses, like Absent Silhouette Larxene, may have more than one DM. | ||
*Invincibility Point, AKA HP Barrier: | *Invincibility Point, AKA HP Barrier: | ||
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That's all for now. This is here just for some in-depth stuff that's a bit moer informally explained and just in case anyone else is very confused by the fan-speak terms they use, and how most of the bosses work in most KHII/KHIIFM expert players' favors. --[[User:SneaselSawashiro|SneaselSawashiro]] ([[User talk:SneaselSawashiro|talk]]) 21:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC) | That's all for now. This is here just for some in-depth stuff that's a bit moer informally explained and just in case anyone else is very confused by the fan-speak terms they use, and how most of the bosses work in most KHII/KHIIFM expert players' favors. --[[User:SneaselSawashiro|SneaselSawashiro]] ([[User talk:SneaselSawashiro|talk]]) 21:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
:Besides "Invincibility Point" (which can be described in each bosses' game subpage) I think each of these terms qualifies for its own page (like [[Tech Points]] for example) to explain the gameplay mechanics behind it. Most of our KHII templates and boss sections stem from the Bradygames guide, which is very basic to put it nicely. The Ultimanias probably feature more indepth information regarding those mechanics and may even provide some better terms to make them at least semi-official. I could scan these pages if anyone is interested. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 22:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC) | :Besides "Invincibility Point" (which can be described in each bosses' game subpage) I think each of these terms qualifies for its own page (like [[Tech Points]] for example) to explain the gameplay mechanics behind it. Most of our KHII templates and boss sections stem from the Bradygames guide, which is very basic to put it nicely. The Ultimanias probably feature more indepth information regarding those mechanics and may even provide some better terms to make them at least semi-official. I could scan these pages if anyone is interested. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 22:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
::::For the record, I really don't think Tech Points should be its own page. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ::::For the record, I really don't think Tech Points should be its own page. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
:::::What would you propose? My opinion is that if we talk about or show something on the enemy pages, that is not self-explaining, we have to explain it somewhere else. | :::::What would you propose? My opinion is that if we talk about or show something on the enemy pages, that is not self-explaining, we have to explain it somewhere else. | ||
:::::Currently we have some situations where this is solved less than ideal, for example we have several references to "Shop Level" but don't explain anywhere what this actually is and how it rises. Sometimes we circumvent these terms by just showing the result (most of the enemy template is designed to do that). On the other hand we have dedicated pages that explain how fire resistance works. If we want to expand the boss battle sections by talking about the more underlying gameplay mechanics, they have to appear somewhere as terms themselves. This is all giving the case that we really want to do that, because someone would have to write all this stuff. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 07:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | :::::Currently we have some situations where this is solved less than ideal, for example we have several references to "Shop Level" but don't explain anywhere what this actually is and how it rises. Sometimes we circumvent these terms by just showing the result (most of the enemy template is designed to do that). On the other hand we have dedicated pages that explain how fire resistance works. If we want to expand the boss battle sections by talking about the more underlying gameplay mechanics, they have to appear somewhere as terms themselves. This is all giving the case that we really want to do that, because someone would have to write all this stuff. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 07:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
::Shop Level should be covered at Moogle Shop if it isn't already -- and there's also the Mirage Arena shop level. | |||
::For Tech Points, and then all this stuff, I would definitely suggest having a "Combat System" page of some sort, covering the basic stuff like how the AI works in general, how combo finishers are, basically anything that's not a named command.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
I expected that combo finishers would be a part of [[Attack]]. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 18:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::From what others have told me, they really shouldn't actually be their own pages since for one thing, they're mainly fan-derived terms. It's not like Square Enix themselves actually put up a list of these mechanics. These more likely came from players who have a ton of time on their hands. And because it's fan-derived, admins won't tolerate these topics being on the actual pages themselves for various reasons, let alone have them as their own pages. There is a reason why this will be mainly stuck to the discussion page only. --[[User:SneaselSawashiro|SneaselSawashiro]] ([[User talk:SneaselSawashiro|talk]]) 20:38, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
Please be sure to comment at the end of sections, not smack in the middle. It makes it hard to keep the chronological flow of the conversation. In addition, if this was purely notes, may I direct you to [[Forum:Ansem's Computer|Ansem's Computer]], our "Notes" forums. You should also note that Shard, who suggested this be a full page in someway, is an admin himself, so, yeah... | |||
As to the actual argument made here, I side with Shard in that we should have some sort of place to explain this technical info. However, it'll definitely be tricky to explain it using what basically amount to a bunch of fan-made terms. "Fire Resistance", "Defense", "Tech Points", and the such are all either in the official Ultimanias, the game guides (like the Bradygames Guide Shard noted), or in-game (mostly in-game, I believe). However, I truly feel this kinda information would do useful somewhere, whether as a full article, or in the Ansem's Computer forums as notes (in which I would move that the forums be made more prominent in someway). Something else we could do is bake them into [[Template:Character]], like a bunch of other technical game data that, while is real, doesn't (I believe) exist explicitly in-game or in any official materials. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 21:32, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Why not just grab the description of these moves from the Ultimanias, which list every boss's attacks?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
==Guidebook forum thread?== | |||
{{TNE|time=07:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC)|text=This has little to do with the actual subject matter but I know there used to be a forum thread where people were asked to list the material they had regarding the Kingdom Hearts series. As of last week I now have the Kingdom Hearts II guidebook. 1) Can anyone link me to that forum thread, and 2) are there any Kingdom Hearts II sections that need images that I could hopefully scan in?}} | |||
http://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Forum:Materials_Available&t=20160609170155 | |||