Forum:The Singular "They"

Forums: Index > The World that Never was > The Singular "They"

TheFifteenthMember Yes. You're creepy. I can't say we'll miss you while you're gone, so it'd be best if you did go. We all win that way. — TheFifteenthMember 11:44, 25 August 2015 (UTC) This has caused a lot of edit wars and disagreements before, so I've decided to create a forum and clarify the issue once and for all. The argument is that using "they" as a gender-neutral singular pronoun is incorrect because of course, "they" is a plural pronoun. There's some evidence for that. However, a simple google search shows, me so much more evidence that goes in favour of the singular "they". The issue about warring over grammar is that rules aren't written in stone and language fluctuates all the time. Maybe singular "they" wasn't acceptable in the past (and I say that only for sake of argument, because even Shakespeare used singular "they"), but it's crystal clear that in current times, the trend is with singular "they". Assuming this forum reaches a consensus in favour of singular "they", remember that wikis are collaborative. Each person has their own personal preferences and opinions but when the majority of the community have decided on something, everyone is obliged to act upon it, even if they were part of the minority that got overruled. For example, I'm accustomed to British English but when I edit here, I try to use American spellings as much as possible (although I still forget sometimes) because that's what the wiki has decided on using. So thoughts?

Eternal Nothingness XIII Let's see, here... "If the subject fails to respond, use aggression to liberate his true disposition"... Right. Did they ever pick the wrong guy for this one... — 13:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC) I'm part of that minority who thinks it is wrong to use "they" when referring to singular nouns/subjects. I'm just going to state why: it's been drilled into my head over the course of my many years of schooling. The last time I heard "It's wrong to use 'they' to refer to singular objects, class," was in 2013. Maybe times have changed, and I haven't realized it. Sure, using "they" would probably make things easier sometimes and may sound better on occasion to me, but then I remember what I was taught. When I read "The user summons their Keyblade," on a page, it just drives me nuts and continues to do so until I "correct" it. Of course, this could be partly because of my OCD. I don't know. I'll go with whatever the community goes with. I pray this Wiki makes a good, right decision; keep in mind that if we're going for professionalism here (what I always strive for), then going for something that is grammatically incorrect is not the way to achieve it. However, if times have changed and there is significant proof from official sources to prove that, then by all means, use "they."

Chitalian8 Say... — Only by allowing strangers in can we find new ways to be ourselves. Life's little crossroads are often as simple as the pull of a trigger. — 14:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC) I dunno about everyone else, but that link to Oxford you posted, 15th, is looking pretty convincing to me.

Eternal Nothingness XIII Is it that I'm not supposed to exist? — 16:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC) Before this discussion continues further, I'd like to throw this link out there: Click me! It says basically says that because "their" is a pronoun like "he," "she," and "it," it MUST agree in number: CORRECT: If a student parks a car on campus, he or she has to buy a parking sticker. INCORRECT: If a student parks a car on campus, they have to buy a parking sticker. It also says "everybody, anybody, anyone, each, neither, nobody, someone, a person, etc. are singular and take singular pronouns." CORRECT: Everybody ought to do his or her best. INCORRECT: Everybody ought to do their best. CORRECT: Neither of the girls brought her umbrella. INCORRECT: Neither of the girls brought their umbrella. However, the website does state: "Many people find the construction 'his or her' wordy, so if it is possible to use a plural noun as your antecedent and thus you can use 'they' as your pronoun, it may be wise to do so. If you do use a singular noun and the context makes the gender clear, then it is permissible to use just 'his' or 'her' rather than 'his or her.'" While that last bit says using "their" is permissible, please keep the last bit in mind, as well: "If you do use a singular noun and the context makes the gender clear, then it is permissible to use just 'his' or 'her' rather than 'his or her.'"

KrytenKoro - Ṱ͐͒H̫̾̃E͈͔͍͔̾̋ͦ̕ ͇̜͖͉̘̬͙̃̇̊͜N͙͉̑̓̌ͤĬ̸͇̖͈͒̃Gͧ͊̈́­̮̠̟͖̝̩H̽͌̀T͚̹̝̐ͬ̂̔̄ ̿̈́̊̃ͦ͆͑A̘̝̖ͪͯ́̀ͣ̿̃͝I̟͑ͬR̡͎̩̚ ̠̪̈́̑̏̏̋C̯̲ͩ́͐͒͂ͪ͜Ä͍̜̣̼̹́͌̋̀͒͂ͅ­N̅͐̆ͪ̓̋ͩ ̣ͮͧͧ͌Ả̼̤̜̫̩̜̾̕L͓͓̺̤̘̠̀W̷͗͂ͦ̾͒­̭̯̼A̘͓̰̠͉͇̬Y̵̒ͧͩ̇ͅS ̦̻̯̟̮̭̟̓̒͑͋C̮̱͔͔̖̯ͦͧͨ͋̑A̤ͩ̉̅ͪR­̞͉̣̦̪̜̮͛̉̎̀ͩ̍̇R̢̥̳̝̟̺̣̈Y͗͋̅͏͇̳­̪͎̺ ̭͈͍̝̣͍̒̎̑͘O̖̗͇̲̲̖͊̈́̿ͨ͑ͅN̩̰͉͍͍͖­͙E̩̹̣̰̣͓̖̽̊͡ ̲̮͔̯̦̋̿ͧͫ̓ͅM͇̌͌̔́O̱̫̯̬̤̗̲͛R̙̽E­̥̦̫̺͙̩̏̒ͯͭ́ ̖̫̯͉̱ͣͯͩ͊͐͆ͫS̰̿̊̑̋ͩ̇ͅC̘̣̜͍̆̆ͧ͜­R̞̾͐̋̆̚Ë̡͇̓A̙͈M̡̤̙̈ TALK - Teachers are very, very often wrong. What anyone's teacher told them is irrelevant to our purposes, and to an extent, what past prescriptivists have tried to claim is also generally irrelevant (like the canard about not having prepositions at the end of a sentence, when that has always been common in the English language). We can agree to use one of the professional manuals of style, fine, but even the one quoted says that "they" can be appropriate. If we run into a situation where gender is given by context, fine, but note that that is not the same as a command currently being used by only one character -- ex., the canon gives no indication that Dark Firaga is a male command, even though only male characters have used it so far. (On a personal and absolutely non-binding note, "his/her" "his and her", etc., sound awful to me because they're so long. We don't want our prose to be meandering or purple, and I think it's worth trying to improve the English language and damn the prescriptivists. On a similar track, I think it should be obvious to everyone why we shouldn't default to a specific gender as many MoS often recommend.)

Eternal Nothingness XIII How many times do I have to beat you? — 00:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC) I shall address your points one at a time: It is not a fair comment for you to make that "teachers are very, very often wrong." I am personally offended by that statement because I happen to be related to several teachers who are very smart, competent individuals, to say the least. Teachers would not be teachers if all they did was feed us lies; they only teach us what the so-called "prescriptivists" say is correct. Why would we trust teachers to instruct children if we knew what they said was ultimately incorrect? Teachers are not just dreaming things up and brainwashing us to believe and support what they say. I was not saying what teachers say is a valid reason to apply "they" rules to this Wiki, by any means. I was merely explaining why I support "use 'his or her'" over "they" so strongly. The reason things are "common in the English language" is because people get used to hearing incorrect grammar in everyday life; these commonly-heard errors are often made so frequently that the "prescriptivists" say "Eff this," and amend the rules of the English language to make the errors "okay." That aside, it is also not the place of anyone on this Wiki to say we are above the English language or its confines, flawed and confusing though they may be. The so-called "prescriptivists" have placed their rules in books and on websites, as well as in several other places. If we are not going to abide by the rules of the English language, then what language do you suggest? I have never said that Dark Firaga is a "male command." Just as we cannot assume it is male-exclusive, we cannot assume a female will someday have access to it. What upsets me about this Wiki time and again is we try to do things based on our personal preferences, rather than express what the GAMES state to be so. Just because something sounds "awful" to you, that does not mean we can just ignore grammar or use that opinion as the basis for a policy. I acknowledge you simply threw your opinion out with this comment; while "his or her" can make things wordy or hard to read, it is just proper grammar and nothing more. Again, I ask what right you have to say, "Damn the prescriptivists. Let's improve the English language."