Forum:Project Character/Enemy Boss

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Eternal Nothingness XIII - You have to be strong. Strength of heart will carry you through the hardest of trials. TALK - What I do, I do for friendship. — 21:11, August 23, 2010 (UTC) Thanks to ShardofTruth, we've been provided with the attack and magic card images for character bosses in Re:CoM. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I refer to images like this: Axel (Attack)1 (card).png Yesterday, my project was to add these card images to the respective characters' boss articles. I created the "Deck Statistics" section, which was meant to demonstrate the following: The cards in each character's deck, including Attack, Magic, Item, and Enemy. Each character that uses Sleights currently has this section, displaying the cards that deck contains in a gallery. I wasn't sure whether to add this to characters' boss pages like Ursula or Maleficent, who only have one type of card that they use for everything, or what to classify the card as in this case, since they are enemy cards, but they aren't used for the enemy card function. However, these cards still have values, etc., so we will need to add them eventually to stay consistent, as at least some of the sections will apply to it. This counts for Heartless bosses, too. The quantity of each card type in the deck (ie; Shadow (x1)). This would be grouped with the cards that appear in each deck, as a caption for the card images in their galleries, despite length of these captions. A different method can be used if it damages formatting. Sleights. The sleights each card grants when stocked. This is a difficult task, as each card in a character deck is a different type, thus causing a different attack when used alone or in a Sleight. For example, File:Lexaeus (Attack)1 (card).png + File:Lexaeus (Magic) (card).png + File:Lexaeus (Attack)2 (card).png equals Impact Quake, while File:Lexaeus (Attack)1 (card).png + File:Lexaeus (Attack)2 (card).png + File:Lexaeus (Magic) (card).png equals Grand Impact. My point is that the same cards can be used in different orders to create different Sleights. Currently, all CoM boss articles host the Sleight section, but as to which cards make each Sleight, this needs to be varified. I only put what I did thanks to YouTube videos. Wonderful way to waste an afternoon for one bloody section of an article that hardly anyone pays attention to. Card value. This is going to be a pain-staking process. In a sub-section of the Deck Statistics section, we'll need to place the value of each card, and the quantity of that value (9 (x5)). Each of these sub-sections will need to be varified, of course, by guidebook or Ultimania. The CoM guidebook, I know, at least lists the cards in each deck, the quantity, and the quantity of values, but for some reason, CoM's influence on the Wiki seems to have completely vanished, replaced by Re:CoM, So this complicates things. I'm not sure of the contents of the Ultimania, as I've never read or seen a copy, but I'm sure we can get around this. Then this morning, I went through the painstaking process of completely revising the Zexion (Boss) article (even if it unfortunately credited me as an IP at the time), adding Enemy template and all, as much as I hate the complexity of that thing. But going through each of the boss articles, I realized how terribly these were written. Some strategies were just a bulleted list of attacks, for Pete's sake! Thus, I thought it might be a good idea to revise these articles, but I can't do this all by myself. I need your help with this. Aside from issues with missing stats or card deck information, the Zexion boss article is an example of a well-written boss article, a model anyone can use if they wish to attempt revising a boss article on their own. Boss articles should contain the following sections in this recommended and personally preferred order: Game template. List all games the character is fought in. Maintenance templates. State issues and place accordingly based on problems in the article. Do not place if not needed for any specific reason. Do not list "Everything" as what is lacking in the article. Youmay template. Link to the character article of the boss in question. Intro. Don't just say "So-and-so appears as a boss in this-and-this game.", provide a bit of a story to it, such as "Marluxia wishing to do away with Sora due to his actions in Castle Oblivion, he attacks the Keyblade master and engages him in a climatic battle." I'm not saying be the next Shakespeare almost as if we were redoing the character article in an intro, but one line is quite pathetic. I refer to how badly the Zexion boss article looked before I revised it when saying this, as I will many times as an example. Enemy template. Fill in all necessary fields. If a character appears in two games, set up the template for those two games. Don't be lazy and only do half the work (an example being Lexaeus (Boss), the article only showing stats for CoM). If you don't know a certain statistic, ask someone else (PM them on the IRC, contact a reliable staffer, or leave an inquiry on the boss article's talk page), or simply put the expansion template on the top of the article, stating what it is you're looking for, lables such as "Statistics" and even something lengthier like "Determine quantities of cards in Deck Statistics section" being acceptable. Strategy. If a character appears in more than one game, write it as "Strategies". Game titles should be used in sub-headings. If multiple battles with different characters occur within a single game (Terra-Xehanort (Boss)), that's when you can get into sub-sub-headings and such. Otherwise, each new game a character is fought in should be a new sub-heading. A bulleted list of attacks does not count as a strategy, and a well-written strategy will use terms such as "one must" instead of "you" and "the player". It will also describe methods of beating the character as well as list their attacks in a more article-like formatting than a bulleted list. A good example is the Zexion boss article, a bad example being Riku Replica (Boss). Deck Statistics. Only add this if a boss is fought in CoM/Re:CoM with the sub-sections mentioned above, all conditions I mentioned taken into account. Battle Quotes. Sub-sections according to games, no "Hee-yah" or "Muahahahaha!", just legitimate phrases like "Give me your best shot.", as mentioned in the MoS. I know a policy exists stating only seven quotes may be used, but that makes having the section irrelevant all together, and some articles having this and not others is quite inconsistent. While we could eliminate the section all together, it's quite useful for readers, since battle quotes irk a lot of gamers while playing. And if confusion arises over a quote, it's not that hard to just discuss it and find a reasonable resolution. Video. Write as "Videos" if a character appears in multiple games. So long as the 10/8 video requirement is kept, videos should be able to be added for every time a character is fought. The maximum right now is Vanitas, with seven battles, so the number of videos should not be a problem in terms of documenting the article in this media-based manner. Proper formatting is to be used, of course, what with the Wikitable and all. Titles of the videos in the Wikitable should list the game, which playable character is fighting, and the character being fought. Notes and References. Only if a certain statistic/strategic fact needs to be sourced. See the Zexion boss article for an example. Navigational template. Only if it has one, such as any one of the Organization boss articles. Categorization. Categorize as "GAME TITLE HERE bosses", not "GAME TITLE HERE enemies". There is a difference between bosses and enemies, and enemies count as lesser creatures like Shadows and Dusks. Rather than leave these articles to collect dust, I say we make them as good as we can before we allow them to do so. Let's not be lazy editors that just place a cleanup template atop an article in hopes that one day a guy with nothing better to do will revise it. I think with all I am that this should be one of the Wiki's next projects, and I hope you'll agree! I appreciate any help I receive, and hopefully this will be an edit-motivating group experience!

Discussion

I merely wish to clarify, as I don't think I made it apparent enough above, that this forum's subject refers to both Character and Enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, etc.) bosses (hence the title). - EternalNothingnessXIII 22:49, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

And yes, we are intended to discuss this. - EternalNothingnessXIII 05:27, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

LapisScarab Embrace... nothing! — 05:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC) I actually brought up something similar on the Project Enemy:DESIGN page. I'm tired and lazy right now, so behold the power of copy and paste! Suggestion. Obviously for bosses who are also actual characters (Saix, Luxord, Hades, etc.) we wouldn't give their bosspages design sections, it would be redundant to the Appearance section on their main page. But for characters who have multiple forms during boss fights (Xion, Xemnas, Marluxia, Maleficent etc.) I think we should contain the descriptions of the multiple forms on the respective boss pages. For example, what I did with the descriptions of Xion and Xemnas' various armored forms. Thoughts?

Eternal Nothingness XIII - You have to be strong. Strength of heart will carry you through the hardest of trials. TALK - What I do, I do for friendship. — 05:44, August 24, 2010 (UTC) Laziness is bliss. Yeah, Lapis, we can contemplate design as a section, too.

KrytenKoro - You should have figured out whether bodies age without their hearts, Nomura. TALK - The ReCoM ultimania scans, which I believe Shard already gave you the link to, list the sleights, the card types, and their names. It also lists the deck makeup for applicable bosses, which should be added. Strategies - should start with a bulleted list of attacks, using names from the guides or ultimanias. If the attack is unnamed, list it as something like "An unnamed attack in which X does Y". If stats for the attacks are available (Which they are for most games), list those as well. It may be reasonable to list how to deflect or dodge the attack here, but I personally think that that is best reserved for the actual tips portion. There should be a max of TWO (2) strategies listed - the most efficient (no item usage, minimal damage taken, for days, minimal spell usage), and the quickest (anything goes, the quickest). Other variations, such as no exp challenges, etc., do not need to be catered to. This is all we need. Boss Quotes - absolutely should not be a separate section, as it encourages adding grunts. This should be synthesized with the attacks list as the attacks "telegraph". If absolutely necessary, the beginning and finishing quotes may be added as part of the lead or some such, but they would better fit on the character's main page. Any quotes added to the boss page should be removed from any non-vital appearances on the character page - ie, the quote list, of random synopsis interruptions. Categorization - redundant. The Enemy template already handles all categorization. None is needed, unless we want to categorize bosses by what world they appear in. Videos - Trickmaster is the format I've been using. The table should be of minimum width (so no widths are specified, except by the video embedding itself), and centered. If there are more than two videos, they should be in separate rows by game. For a boss that appears more than once, each recurring time should be followed by the applicable roman numeral, as used in all the guides (unless the specific names differ). There should be a video for every boss battle, as well as by episode, so there should actually be four for CoM and Re:CoM bosses. Videos should be ordered by game, as done with the game template, then chronologically within (for BBS, assume T>V>A). Videos should show the complete battle. Days bosses should not have their own videos, as it is abusive of fair use - instead, link to the Mission article with the full-mission battle (excluding AntiRiku and AntiSaix, which are a special case). For games with more than one scenario (CoM and BBS), the scenario should be specified if necessary, as done at Vanitas (Boss). Lexaeus (Boss) missing stats - do we want the Absent Silhouettes and Replica Data to be covered on the same page? They are a different type of thing, and if the stats are there, then full info on the AS and RD should be, too. I'd personally prefer covering these on the main AS and RD pages.

Eternal Nothingness XIII - You have to be strong. Strength of heart will carry you through the hardest of trials. TALK - What I do, I do for friendship. — 00:05, August 25, 2010 (UTC) I don't recall Shard ever providing me with such scans. They'd be useless to me, anyways, as I have no way of reading Japanese. Keep in mind that this is intended to be a forum about starting a new project, not me asking for help or complaining about the Wiki. For the strategies, I don't believe there is ever an issue where a character has more than two. The only exception would be Vanitas, who is fought at least twice in three different stories. While his attacks are similar, it's quite lazy to say "See above" when each character has a different style. Same goes for any other boss similar to this, such as characters like Vexen, who appears as a boss in two different stories, within the same game. A reasonable strategy describes an attack and how to avoid it, as well as providing tips and such. That will need to be done in anything written. If we want to go into an in-depth statistics thing in terms of their attacks, etc., then we can find a way to do that, as well. In terms of quotes, saying "When Vanitas says "Give up!", dodge his Keyblade strike" isn't that helpful, especially if that's the only way quotes are to be included. The Boss articles aren't that popular around newbies and IP's, so I don't think we really need to worry about people being tempted to edit with grunts and laughter. Only regulars seem to edit them, and these users should know what's acceptable on an article and what's not by now. Categorization, now. I don't think we are in need of any more worthless categories. Pages like Dwarf Woodlands would only have one article in those categories, anyways. Videos, next. I have no issues with what you just stated, Kryten. I agree with that 100%. Last comes Absent Silhouettes and Data Replicas. I feel they'd make the AS and RD pages ridiculously long. No need to do that, as the page should describe what an AS or DR is itself, and then link to the boss articles as they currently do. We need to simply expand the enemy template if we resort to that.