Editing Template talk:DisneyAntagonistDirectory

==If==
If we're going to keep this, it should be changed to "introduced in", like other templates of similar scope.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 02:25, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
:Fair enough, we should just implement the changes. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="black">TNÉ</font>]]''' <sub>'''[[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#1E90FF">En avant</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#00BFFF ">Bravo !</font>]]'''</sub> 02:49, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

== Smee, the hyenas, and the Goons ==
Are they really villians? I think they are more of just plain old lackeys than Villians.--{{User:PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart/sig}} 17:59, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

== Birth by Sleep? ==

Missing the villains of ''[[Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep]]''.<sub>[[User:Captain Goofy|Captain Goofy]]</sub>
:You know why? Because the game hasn't been released yet, and we don't deal in conjecture.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 18:11, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
::And now that the game HAS been released, someone go quick and add the BBS villains to the list. --[[Special:Contributions/84.249.211.221|84.249.211.221]] 20:05, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

== On sale, ¿and the villains? ==

The game ''[[Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep]]'' is on sale, and missing the villains.<sub>[[User:Mbvnmrlpnle|Mbvnmrlpnle]]</sub>
:And do you have a link to a full translation of the game? Or a full walkthrough?[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 18:52, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

== With the villains of ''Birth by Sleep'' ==
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{| class="collapsible collapsed" width="100%" style="clear:both; background:#F5DEB3; border: 2px solid #800080; -moz-border-radius: 10px;"
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! align="center" style="background:#800080; -moz-border-radius: 7px;" width="70%" |<div style="margin-left:70px;"><font color="white">Disney Villains</font></div>
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:smaller;font-family:tahoma"> 
|'''Introduced in ''[[Kingdom Hearts (game)|Kingdom Hearts]]'''''
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:small;"> 
| <small>[[Maleficent]] • [[Hades]] • [[Jafar]] • [[Ursula]] • [[Oogie Boogie]] • [[Captain Hook]]<br>[[Queen of Hearts]] • [[Card Soldier]]s • [[Cerberus]] • [[Rock Titan]] • [[Ice Titan]] • [[Sabor]] • [[Clayton]] • [[Iago]] • [[Monstro]] • [[Lock, Shock, and Barrel]] • [[Flotsam and Jetsam]] • [[Glut]] • [[Mr. Smee]] • [[Chernabog]]</small>
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:small;">
|'''Introduced in ''[[Kingdom Hearts II]]'''''
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:small;"> 
| <small>[[Pete]] • [[Captain Barbossa]] • [[Scar]]<br>[[Shan-Yu]] • [[Hayabusa]] • [[Undead Pirate]]s • [[Shenzi, Banzai, and Ed]] • [[Hydra]] • [[Pain and Panic]] • [[Master Control Program|MCP]] • [[Sark]]</small>
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:small;">
|'''Introduced in ''[[Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep]]'''''
|-align="center" style="text-align:center;vertical-align:top;font-size:small;"> 
| <small>[[Lady Tremaine]] • [[Anastasia]] • [[Drizella]] • [[Lucifer]] • [[Queen|The Queen]] • [[Magic Mirror]] • [[Maleficent's Lackeys]] • [[Gantu]] • [[Experiment 221]]</small>
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<noinclude>[[Category:Navigation templates|Disneyvillains]]</noinclude>-->

==Somebody wanna update this for the villains in BBS?== 

In BBS, Anastasia, Drizella, Gantu, Ice Colossus, Lucifer, Magic Mirror, Maleficent's goons, The Queen, and Lady Tremaine were introduced, so someone needs to update this template. --BreaktheIce16 (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

== "General knowledge and common sense" ==

...''Like the Tron: Legacy world being Space Paranoids, and not a new world (as the previews eventually said)?''...

Okay, to reiterate: ''This template is not for antagonists''. It's for ''villains'', the people who are trying to conquer a world and can never be reasoned with. This is why it does not include the Queen of Hearts, Gantu, Lock, Shock, and Barrel (and honestly it shouldn't include the hyenas and pain and panic, since they all become civil).

Even if it was for just "major antagonists", we haven't even seen Rinzler fighting Sora. We've seen him readying a stance. It is so far beyond ridiculous to assume that we know that he will be a major villain in at least the world's plot, when even in the movie ''he was the protagonist's brainwashed friend''.

This is really, really stupid. We suffer ''nothing'' for waiting at least until Rinzler is even mentioned as his ''name'' (remember Leon?), and only look foolish if it turns out we were making claims based off of half a second of video and they end up being wrong.[[Special:Contributions/192.249.47.195|192.249.47.195]] 15:23, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

== "Villain" ==

Noun: villain (plural villains)

#A vile, wicked person. 
##An extremely depraved person, or one capable or guilty of great crimes.
##A deliberate scoundrel.

So, I just removed the lackeys completely, for this plus a variety of reasons:
*Hayabusa, Maleficent's Goons, Lucifer: We are not even sure these guys are sapient and thus "evil". They're barely different, morally, from the Heartless.
*Shenzi, Banzai, and Ed, Pain and Panic: These guys aren't even enemies after your first fight(s) with them, like Lock, Shock, and Barrel.
*Undead Pirates and Maleficent's Goons: generic mooks. Not villains.
*Iago, Flotsam and Jetsam, Mr. Smee, Sark, Drizella and Anastasia: I removed them because they are lackeys, but arguably they could be put back. Iago and Mr. Smee, however, seem to just be doing it as a job, and I personally wouldn't consider them villains.
*Beagle Boys, Rinzler: All we know about the Beagle Boys so far is that they serve Pete, and we know jack all about Rinzler (and even in the film, he is a brainwashed goon). 

If we want to reconsider this as "Disney Enemies", that could be done, but then you'd have stuff like the Tremaines and The Queen being removed completely, while Beast, Captain Pete, Experiment 221, Gantu, Hercules, Monstro, Magic Mirror, Ice Titan, Peter Pan, Queen of Hearts, Rock Titan, and the Seven Dwarves would be added in. And that's certainly doable, if we want to make a navbox like that. I should probably rejigger the enemy template to create a category for that, too.

Personally, I think ''this'' template works better with a plot focus, highlighting the actual villains who the heroes have to work against, rather than mixing in their goons and lackeys. Esepcially since that's what the name implies.


I'm just gonna remove the lackeys completely. This was originally meant for "the big bads who serve as the antagonists", and now it's just become "disney people who look like they might fight you initially". Several of them aren't even aggressive.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


I agree with all of this, except I think Sark should be re-added. Maybe Gantu too, but I could see an argument against that since he isn't all THAT bad...--'''''[[User:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Random!</span>]][[User talk:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkblue;">to a point!</span>]]''''' 23:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
:Hokay. Yeah, I can see Sark as a villain.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't really agree with Flotsam and Jetsam. Sure they're evil, but they are just lackeys and are essentially no more then Heartless... They aren't as prominent as the other villains on that line.--'''''[[User:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Random!</span>]][[User talk:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkblue;">to a point!</span>]]''''' 00:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

==Why is this still incorrect?==
{{Uxie|time=14:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)|text=I think we need to bring up this template at the next IRC meeting. I consider Drizella and Anastasia to be villains, but not Rinzler. Here's whom I think are the villains of each Disney world:

*Wonderland - Queen of Hearts (semi)
*Olympus Coliseum - Hades (true)
*Agrabah - Jafar (true); Iago (semi)
*Prankster's Paradise - Monstro (semi)
*Atlantica - Ursula (true); Flotsam and Jetsam (semi)
*Halloween Town - Oogie Boogie (true); Lock, Shock and Barrel (semi)
*Neverland - Captain Hook (true); Smee (semi)

*Land of Dragons - Shan-Yu (true)
*Beast's Castle - N/A
*Port Royal - Barbossa (true, for now)
*Pride Lands - Scar (true); Shenzi, Banzai and Ed (semi)
*Space Paranoids - Sark and MCP (both true)

*Enchanted Dominion - Maleficent (major); Goons (semi)
*Dwarf Woodlands - Queen Grimhilde (true)
*Castle of Dreams - Lady Tremaine, Drizella, Anatasia (all true)
*Deep Space - Gantu (semi); Experiment 221 (semi)

*La Cité des Cloches - Frollo (true)
*The Grid - CLU (true); Rinzler (semi; brainwashed)

Those marked as '''semi''' should not be added. Those marked with '''true''' should. Maleficent is marked as '''major''' due to her role in the series.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Flotsam and Jetsam are strictly Ursula's collaborators, so they are villains. They do not appear in any other context.

I do not see how Drizella or Anastasia could be considered villains in any way, and I have trouble seeing how Lady Tremaine could, either. Being pissy doesn't make you an evil monster trying to tear down the walls of creation.

We will make a decision on Rinzler ''once we actually have access to the game''. I'm a bit pissed that the stuff is even up there to begin with, but going back and forth on it now makes no sense.}}
{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 21:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)|default=Well, Flotsam and Jetsam are villains but aren't really that important.}}

===Now that the game is out===
{{Uxie|time=19:06, 13 September 2012 (UTC)|zoe=So. Should we remove Rinzler from this list, as well as add in Drizella and Anastasia? Seeing the cutscenes makes me feel sorry for Rinzler. I don't consider him a murderous monster; just a brainwashed victim of the true monster: CLU. Drizella and Anastasia, on the other hand, are considered monsters on my standing. Abusing your step-sister, being selfish and cruel, and the fact that they later attempt to '''murder''' Cindy after she is freed makes me think that they might be "Princesses of Darkness" (much like how I refer to Vanitas as the '''Prince of Darkness''').

You guys might see Rinzler as an evil goon, but I see him as simpally brainwashed (though this could be thanks to all these years playing KHII). And for Drizella and Anastasia, you might see them as pissy and selfish bitches, but I see them as purely evil.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, but they don't, like, ''do'' anything. Or even ''plan'' anything. They're just prissy.

Rinzler tries to kill Sora, of his own free will. That his free will was reprogrammed doesn't change that that's who he is now.}}
{{Uxie|time=12:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)|luna=Even Kevin Flynn mentioned that even a slight tamper to his data can change Rinzler into the monster he is now, which explained why he attacked Sora without being ordered by CLU (on the bridge, not the Stadium). But either way, CLU is responcible for this monster, and this is the reason why I don't believe that Rinzler should be on this list.

Since we'll never agree this way, I've put up a request on the Roundtable on how should and who should not be listed. And we might want to protect it for now until we've decided; somebody's put minor villains on this list, and some are more antagonistic than Rinzler himself.}}

==Name Change==
{{Uxie|time=06:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)|angela=We've already agreed through a Roundtable meeting that the template's name should be changed to '''DisneyAntagonistDirectory''', and that was back in 2012. It's nearly 2014; why has this change never happened? Don't forget that not all of us agree that Rinzler is a true villain, but still consider him an antagonist. The two words have different meanings, but are very similar.}}
{{KrytenKoro|This page isn't protected; you are more than able to move it.}}
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 {{Uxie|time=06:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)|angela=We've already agreed through a Roundtable meeting that the template's name should be changed to '''DisneyAntagonistDirectory''', and that was back in 2012. It's nearly 2014; why has this change never happened? Don't forget that not all of us agree that Rinzler is a true villain, but still consider him an antagonist. The two words have different meanings, but are very similar.}}
 {{KrytenKoro|This page isn't protected; you are more than able to move it.}}
-:Thanks. Make sure to delete the redirect once I'm finished the linking on all the pages. {{Uxie/Sig}} 06:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
-==Fix Format==
-Uh, guys... Is it me or is the template got messed up when WeiChristopher edited on it to add Gaston? I've been trying to look at the coding to see went wrong, but since I'm not expert, I can't find any mistakes with it. Is there anyone who fix the format of the template?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
-:Fixed it. The template was missing a line break between KH3D and KHx. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 20:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
-::Ah, that's great. Thanks. :)--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 02:16, 11 January 2016 (UTC)