Editing Talk:Yozora (video)

Where is it stated the Master of Masters is the hooded figure that appears in the video? - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 03:19, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
:As far as I know, there is no confirmation, so it should be removed as speculation. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 20:36, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
::Agreed. -[[User:Adv193|Adv193]] ([[User talk:Adv193|talk]]) 20:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
::Agreed, but at the same time, it SHOULD be noted the figure has the exact same posture as the Master. It's distinct enough to warrant a mention, but not enough to outright state it's the Master himself. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 07:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== TWEWY relation (and wikia links) ==

Just glancing at the history here before I make any repetitive edits, and I'm seeing that the ''World Ends with You'' acknowledgement has been done and undone already. If there's concrete reason for disregarding this, I will be happy to hear it (#SincerityMode), but it should be pointed out that the building is "104", not "109", which is concretely the Shibuya that Neku and Joshua were fighting for/against. And the government building doesn't counteract that, because Shinjuku was acknowledged and [REDACTED] in TWEWY Final Remix.

On an unrelated note, were the problematic links in said undone edit just poorly-changed markup, or has Wikia's rebranding given the wiki templates trouble? I'm noticing the Dissidia NT links on [[Toy Box]] are still using wikia.com URLs. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 04:15, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
:The reason that edit was undone is because there's no official proof that those buildings are related to TWEWY. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 10:49, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

At risk of being repetitive, the building is labelled "104", and the real one is labelled "109". I don't really see how it ''isn't'' related to TWEWY. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 16:44, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
:The 104 building only exists in TWEWY. As Draconai said, the real one is labeled 109, making the 104 building in the Yozora video a direct reference to TWEWY - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 17:09, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

One thing you guys need to know - and pay attention to - is the rest of the city. Notice the billboards, displays, signs, etc.  ''None'' of it is written in Japanese. In fact the language appears to be very similar to the one that shows up on Ansem's computer. I think that alone rules out any relations to Shibuya from TWEWY.  --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 17:36, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
:No it doesn't rule out any relation to Shibuya from TWEWY when the fact is that the 104 building ONLY exists within TWEWY and now appears within KH as well. That is a huge connection. I'm not saying that the Shibuya Sora and Riku wakes up in definitely is the same Shibuya from TWEWY, but that building is definitely a reference to it. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 19:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
::Reference doesn't mean it's the same thing.  Yozora is very clearly a reference to Noctis, doesn't even remotely mean they're the same dude.  --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 20:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
:::The 104 reference is as much of a reference to TWEWY as the Lady and the Tramp fountain in Traverse Town is. Same goes for the Mad Hatter sign in the second district and the Chip and Mrs. Potts teacups in Deep Jungle. The Yozora and Noctis connection isn't as concrete as of now as the 104 reference, but that too should probably get a mention at some point. The 104 building is not a coincidence. Nomura did not randomly chose to place the 104 number on it rather than the 109 number. That was a deliberate decision. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 20:32, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
::::Dude, seriously.  You're turning this into an obsession.  109 is a trademarked department store and brand.  The only reason why they used the numbers 104 in TWEWY was so they could avoid paying royalties.  They literally did the exact same damn thing with every other brand and store in the game - it's just 104/109 is a very large and prominent building, like the Sears tower.  It's a minor reference and literally nothing more.  You really need to let this go.  --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 05:59, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Would also point out that the "language [...] that shows up on Ansem's computer" is just the sort of omnilingual gibberish that anyone with artistic skill uses when the contents of a written item are unimportant and/or read aloud but a blank surface won't do. Furthermore, billboards, displays, and signs in TWEWY aren't usually shown in detail, and when they are the English versions at least show them in English, so them not being in Japanese in the Yozora video does not automatically rule out a TWEWY reference. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 22:00, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Ultimately, this really boils down less on whether it's an intentional reference or not, and more on whether it's a confirmed reference. Per policy (See [[Help:Editing#Content]]), we do not allow speculation or rumors in articles. Until its confirmed a reference to TWEWY (via interview or future game), it cannot be added to the article. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:47, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Again, "104", not "109". If Potts and Chip in Deep Jungle are considered a confirmed ''Disney'' reference, I fail to see why the 104 Building is not considered a confirmed ''Square Enix'' reference. The 104 Building is a designation that only exists in TWEWY, that's not speculative. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 23:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
:Potts and Chip are confirmed Disney references because they were confirmed Disney references when they first appeared in the movie.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I just grabbed a random one out of JTD95's list and I really hope the consequences of that doesn't mean what I think it means. It '''sounds''' like you're saying it's not considered a "confirmed reference" until #WordOfGod brings it up. Which means that, unless I failed to see the link to an interview or need to read the Ultimania or something, the Lady and the Tramp fountain and Mad Hatter signboard in Traverse Town are not considered "confirmed references". There is avoiding speculation, and then there is overcaution. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 04:25, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

:No. The Lady and the Tramp fountain blatantly display Lady and the Tramp. I was explaining why the more tenuous link to Chip and Mrs. Potts in Deep Jungle was accepted.
:"104" is too tenuous a link. Samoa Joe's input is on point -- this is not showing us TWEWY characters, this is simply doing something like when Spiderverse uses "Koca-Soda". It's certainly ''possible'' that TWEWY is being invoked, but it's by no means an obvious reference.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:59, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
:I think it should be acceptable to mention that "104" was previously used as a rename of the 109 building in TWEWY, as a note, but it's not proper to outright claim we're seeing TWEWY shibuya.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

{sigh} ...I suppose overcaution and pessimism are better than lack of caution and flame wars, but this is still incredibly arbitrary. That being said, acknowledging the TWEWY 104 Building in a Trivia section sounds like the ideal compromise. However, the Trivia section in this page appears to be commented out, so I'm going to leave the addition to whoever has the authority to unmake that. [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 18:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
:It is not arbitrary in any way. The Lady and the Tramp statue and the Mad Hatter portrait were explicit depictions of specific characters; the Mad Hatter is even mentioned elsewhere in Traverse Town. The "104" building is a ''possible'' reference to a location in a game where that name ''was used to avoid trademarks in the first place''. It wasn't some critical character whose renaming was intimately tied in with the TWEWY story, it was simply what they renamed a familiar building in order to disclaim it. It is ''very'' possible for them to be doing the exact same thing here, and Sora could just be in regular Shibuya.
:Right now, we know:
*Sora's in Shibuya (TWEWY or otherwise)
*104 building shows up.
:That's what we should be stating. It's totally possible that this is how Nomura resurrects his Versus XIII and TWEWY 2 concepts, sure. But it is nowhere near certain enough for us to state that.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

== Other appearances ==

This video has the "reconnect kingdom hearts" tagline, which was used previously on other ending videos which were canon, not non-canon like the original deep dive and the gathering.

As such, we should include its events in the kh3 sections, not the "other appearances" sections.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

:I knew Another Side Another Story, Deep Dive, and The Gathering were non-canon conceptual teasers, but I was always under the powerful impression that Birth by sleep was canon. Its events were recreated in the game practically frame by frame. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 17:38, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
::I think it should still count as other appearance. Other reconnect secret endings were all using the same graphics as the game, and were basically just extra scenes. Endings like Deep Dive, The Gathering, and Yozora all use super-fancy CGI graphics and are some kind of vague trailer of whatever game comes next. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 18:12, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
:::KH3 is the outlier though.  A bunch of story scenes use super-fancy CGI this time around.  --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 19:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
::::Technically, the "enhanced scenes" used throughout ''KHIII'' ("Let It Go," Flynn Rider's revival, etc.) are of a different style than "Yozora." The graphics in the secret ending are slightly more detailed. Compare Riku in the ending scene to "Yozora," and you see a big difference. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 19:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
::[[Birth by Sleep (video)#Differences between the video and the game]].{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the use of the phrase "Reconnect. KINGDOM HEARTS" is meant to signify whether a video is canon or not. Since we do not know yet whether this video is canon or not, or just conceptual, I agree with TSH is leaving it in Other Appearances for now. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:40, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 *104 building shows up.
 :That's what we should be stating. It's totally possible that this is how Nomura resurrects his Versus XIII and TWEWY 2 concepts, sure. But it is nowhere near certain enough for us to state that.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
-If you don't believe it's arbitrary, I won't try to convince you otherwise, but YOU suggested, in compromise, that it should be pointed out that 104 was the designation in TWEWY. My point remains that such a note belongs in the Trivia section, which is currently commented out, and I don't know why that is or whether or not I have the authority to unmake it. Thusly, I am bringing it up here on the talk page, rather than risk doing something that needs to be undone and getting written up about it. (side note: nothing can convince me that this has anything to do with the TWEWY sequel, and '''that''' is, in fact, needless speculation) [[User:Draconai|Draconai]] ([[User talk:Draconai|talk]]) 23:46, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
-:Trivia section should be avoided, yes. There should probably be a section (not sure what it would be called), going over the various aesthetic elements of the video, like describing the real-world locations that show up, or any confirmed references.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:39, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
-So, early translations of the Ultimania are saying this is NOT the same Shibuya from TWEWY. Surprise! {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 04:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-:Called it.  :/  I mean, honestly.  It was painfully obvious.  None of the writing was in Japanese!  It was the same gibberish language as in Ansem's computer.  In that respect, it has more connections to Radiant Garden than TWEWY Shibuya. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 05:24, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 == Other appearances ==
@@ Line 58: / Line 52: @@
 ::[[Birth by Sleep (video)#Differences between the video and the game]].{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 I don't think the use of the phrase "Reconnect. KINGDOM HEARTS" is meant to signify whether a video is canon or not. Since we do not know yet whether this video is canon or not, or just conceptual, I agree with TSH is leaving it in Other Appearances for now. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:40, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
-:::Fairly certain that the things we've gleaned from the ultimania mean that this video is canon.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-::::''As I have done in the past, it is an introduction to the story I will tell if there is a next time.''
-::::Sounds to me like it's the same as Deep Dive and Birth by Sleep, a sneak preview at whatever will come next. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 22:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-:::::Not....really. "Introduction" isn't the same as "sneak preview" or "teaser." It's honestly a really straightforward confirmation that it is indeed canon. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 23:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-:'''''[https://www.khinsider.com/news/Kingdom-Hearts-3-Ultimania-Main-Nomura-Interview-Translated-14763 Tetsuya Nomura, ''Kingdom Hearts III'' Ultimania]''''', '''Interviewer''': "We'd like to ask about the secret movie. Does that scene follow on from the ending?" / '''Nomura''': "Yes. When Sora disappears in the ending, he ends up in the world in the secret movie. That's the flow of events." Translation via Goldpanner.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:01, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
-::That pretty much clinches this video is 100% canon, rather than just a mere teaser concept like the rest of them. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 05:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
-== Master of Masters Confirmed ==
-Bad source, yes, but until we get our hands on the actual interview: [https://www.kh13.com/news/spoilers-nomura-has-commented-on-a-number-of-mysteries-from-kingdom-hearts-iii-r2940/ click me]! - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 04:50, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-:May I just be the first to say: WHOO! [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 05:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-::The crazy fool has turned. I'm also gonna say it right now in case anyone doubts it: The Master is an evil, manipulative bastard. Not unlike Martin Kurtz. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 05:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-:::I disagree. The Master of Masters ''can't'' be evil, he's too much like me. I, personally, just do not understand why people think he's evil. Honest request, would you mind explaining to me why ''you'' think he's evil? [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 07:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-::::He orchestrated the entire Keyblade War by giving his apprentices tasks they were painfully ill suited for. Then he told them there was a traitor, sowed some paranoia and doubt into them, then immediately doubled down with the "May your heart be your guiding key" spiel. Sowing discord, then placing trust by saying something like "do what you think is right" is a classic. Then there's all the shit he did to poor Luxu - having the kid live on for thousands of years, possessing one body after another, and having him orchestrate a second war. Luxu was just a dorky kid, but because of the Master, he's now nothing if not jaded and tired of it all. And lastly, if there is one thing that Chuck (the awesome TV show) taught me, anyone as chipper and perky as the Master ''has'' to be faking it! --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 15:52, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
-::::He's a child-abusing cult leader who single-handedly orchestrated two genocidal wars.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:01, 28 February 2019 (UTC)