Editing Talk:Unversed

==Opinion?==

Does anyone else think they should have just stuck with Heartless and Nobodies?  I just feel like adding an enemy that precedes the Heartless (originally, the REAL threat) seems kind of silly.  It would have been better in continuity of they just stuck with the original enemies instead of trying to give us another "original enemy". [[Special:Contributions/75.42.222.81|75.42.222.81]] 18:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Heartless started within the timeline of Kingdom hearts 1. so they had to have something else. [[User:Zack fair 007|Zack fair 007]] 23:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

{{TNE|text=But here's a thought, guys : in the Another Side Another Story trailer, they explicitly mentioned "The Third Enemy - Nobody" meaning to say that the Heartless were already intended to be the second. The first would be the Unbirths, I guess.}}

You think that the mad hatter's song " A Very Merry '''Unbirthday'''" has anything to do with 
them? [[User:Roxas-rules|Roxas-rules]] 19:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::WHY do people keep claiming that [[Xion]] is an unbirth??? We dont even know for certain what unbirths are!!
::Ahem, anyway, I hope they tie them to the sleeping part of this game. And then there could be stuff from Sleeping Beauty (which could already be the wheel master). 
[[User:Summon:WALL•E|Summon:WALL•E]] 08:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason is that there is no other logical explanation that we can see. both her heart and her body are acounted for over the entire duration of kingdom hearts one.[[User:Rock2060|Rock2060]] 22:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

==Theory==
Instead of being negative souls, they are negative LIFE.
See this:
Heartless: Corrupted Hearts
Nobody: Corrupted Bodies
Unbirths: (Presumingly) Corrupted "Lifeforce".
See the contradictions in names?
They are the "opposite of human life", being life without reason, without a body to sustain, no heart to guide it.
"Birth By Sleep"-Born In Sleep. If sleep can be called the process of the division into heartless, nobody and unbirth, you got an origin right in the title. 
 -Good Night Everybody! [[User:Mexoran|MEXORAN]]

I must say I have to agree with this theory whole heartedly (pun intended). Like you said Heartless are a heart in a body of darkness, nobodies are the body and soul leftover when the darkness invades, so maybe unbirths are just a body and a heart?

== unbirth = soul ==

An unbirth is the soul just like the nobody and the heartless are the body and the heart.
In the ansem report 7 it says wen ar heartless is created the body and soul are reborn into another world.
A good example is Sora his heartless a shadow was born in Hallow Bastion but his nobody Roxas was born in Twilight Town.

And there is good proof that Xeanorts unbirth is leading the unbirths because his heartless and nobody leaded the nobodys (Xemnas) and the heartless (Ansem)

one last thing Xion is '''not''' an unbrirt she is a '''!nobody!'''

how can she be a nobodywhen riku has her body for the entire game.[[User:Rock2060|Rock2060]] 22:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 
except Nobodies are the body '''AND''' soul.


But we don't even know MX is Xehanorts unbirth, and a lot of people think Terra is Xehanorts unbirth.

{{TNE|text=Master Xehanort and Xehanort may be connected to each other but MX is ''definitely not''' Xehanort's unbirth. I mean, look at their age !}}

==Idea== 
I think that when a Nobody meets with it's original being ( Such as when Roxas meets with Sora ) the nobody goes back to the normal soul, meaning that the nobody is non- existint anymore, resulting in the nobody being unborn. ( Namine and Roxas are exceptions ) When this happens, another being is created. But instead of one occurence = one heartless/nobody, it creates one unbirth with the power to multiply. Every time this happens, the original unbirth goes to a certain world. When it reaches this world, it starts multiplying. When the original unbirth is defeated, the other unbirth's are destroyed also.[[User:Master of Valor|Master of Valor]] 00:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

{{TNE|text=You mean as in a neverending circle of threats ?}}

[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster says]]- Ralfiki did said that its the Circle of Life

{{TNE|text=That was the Circle of '''Life''' lol ! This is like some sorta circle of death !}}

==Just a thought== 
{{Xiggie|text=I was wandering if these unbirths (See pictures) will be the "main" unbirts, like Shadows are the main Heartless and Dusks are the main Nobodies?}}
[[Image:Unbirth.png|thumb|]][[Image:Unbirth2.png|thumb|]]

{{TNE|text=Methinks they are. By the way, Shadows are the main Heartless and their Nobody counterparts are the Creepers. The Heartless counterparts of Dusks are the Neoshadows.}}

{{Xiggie|text=Oh, yeah, that's right. Thank you :D}}

{{Xiggie|text=I am also thinking that maybe Unbirths are both '''''Pureblod''''' (like heartless (shadow) and '''''Emblem''''' (like emblem heartless (Soldier). If that's true then that means that someone is making them with a machine (ore something), right?        
''see pictures of "emblem" Unbirths and of "pureblood"Unbirths''}}

[[Image:Large_Body_Unbirth.PNG|thumb|175px]]

{{TNE|text=Quite plausible, but who '''could''' be making those Unbirths ? I know the Generic (Shadow equivalent) and Neo (Neoshadow equivalent) Unbirths look about the same as their Heartless counterparts.}}

{{Xiggie|text=yeah, the one that "could" do it might perhaps be MX apprentice (Or Terra (Whoever becomes Xehanort). he could have  worked on it (Secretly?) but then something must have happened to stop the Unbirths for good and when he lost his memory (perhaps he didn't loose all of it) he kept on his work but since Unbirths were no more, he worked with heartless and eventually became one. 
Tell me if this is just some of my crazy imagination acting up again :D}}

{{TNE|text=I don't think it's your imagination. There're quite a few theories on who becomes Xehanort. '''But''' maybe, Terra isn't Xehanort. Clarkmaster, take a look at this ! Maybe Terra isn't Xehanort because Xehanort was with Braig (who is later known as Xigbar). And in The World That Never Was, Xigbar says "You're not half the hero the others were", and Nomura says he '''did''' have a showdown with Terra, Ven and Aqua. If Xehanort was with Braig and Braig had a showdown with all three of them, then Xehanort is '''not''' Terra.}}

{{Xiggie|text=That's right! (I think)}}

{{TNE|text=The thing about Square Enix and Kingdom Hearts is that even the impossible could happen. :D So let's not keep our expectations too high, ya ?}}

{{Xiggie|text=Although, it could be that Xehanort/Xemnas just told Braig/Xigbar about them! just a thought of mine :P}}

{{TNE|text=If you ask me, I've got no idea anymore. First I thought Terra was Xehanort, then I thought he wasn't, then I refuted someone's theory, then I brought back the Terra=Xehanort idea, and now I reject it again...}}

== not just the soul ==

the problem is that it cant just be the soul because then there would be an overwhelming number of ubirths in the other kingdom hearts games and there absense would require an arbitrary explaination. heartless\ nobodys are made when you lose your heart something that is not natrule. but you are suposed to lose your soul its called dieing. 

now for some reason not every heartless spawns a nobody my theroy is this if a heartless is formed it affects the soul in such a way that it will move. if the soul sticks with the body you get a nobody if the soul gose with the heart instead of geting a heartless you get an unbirth. of course its also likely that if the soul will chose neither in wich case you get one heartless and a dead body. this would explain why heartless are more abundent then the other 2

{{TNE|text=It should '''only''' be the soul, because remember what Nomura himself said ? An Unbirth is '''the opposite of human life''', so when you lose your soul, you die, and  an Unbirth is created. For a human to be born, the Unbirth should die. By actually coining the theory you're contradicting yourself, aren't you ?}}

[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster thunk]]Since Troisnyxetienne is right than that means Ven is NOT soras unbirth, unless the game takes place 14 years before kh 1

{{TNE|text=But here's '''another thought''': The game takes some years before KH1. Terra and Ven are on the Main Island of Destiny Islands and Ven begs Terra to erase him. And Terra is also seen '''alone''' on Destiny Islands, watching young Sora and Riku train with their toy swords. There is a high possibility that this could've taken place more than ten years before KH1.}}

And that would be the end of Ven's story, wouldn't it? That defintley means Ven is an unbirth, and if that's true than the first major unbirth seen is Ven so riku has no major importance to BBS as of yet, so Terra has got to be Xehanort![[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster been thinkin]]

{{TNE|text=I'm putting the pieces together in the next section. Do watch the page along with me. At the same time, whoever's got access to what Nomura says about Terra, Ven, Aqua and Xehanort, kindly put it up here.}}

==Guys, let's put the pieces together==
{{TNE|text=Okay. Let's seam everything together and see what we get:

*We know that Birth By Sleep takes place at least ten years before KHI.
*We know that Terra, Ven and Aqua are Keyblade wielders, and followers of Master Xehanort, who is a Keyblade wielder himself.
*Terra, Ven and Aqua have been looking for Master Xehanort, only to confront him in that rocky place (which most people call Sunset Horizons).
*Ven is petrified while MX lets this blue light into the sky, creating something which looks like Kingdom Hearts, albeit blue in colour.
*We know that the first enemies were the Unbirths.
*We know that MX confronted Ven and, with a ball of darkness, asks Ven to liberate his true self (perhaps planning to erase him). Mickey Mouse confronts MX and protects Ven.
*Terra and Ven were seen together on the Main Island of Destiny Islands, and Ven tells Terra to erase him.
*Some time later, Terra sees four-year-old Sora and five-year-old Riku sword-fighting on the Small Island.
*We also know that Terra's eyes turn amber while his hair turns white at the end of Birth By Sleep.

*We know that a guy named Xehanort survived the Keyblade War with no memory of his past, and was taken by Ansem the Wise as an apprentice along with Braig, Dilan, Even, Aeleus and Ienzo.
*We know that Braig (or perhaps his Nobody, Xigbar) had an encounter with Terra, Ven and Aqua for him to tell Sora, "You're not half the hero the others were."
*Xehanort, Braig, Dilan, Even, Aeleus and Ienzo all turned into Heartless and left Nobodies behind. Coincidentally, Terra, Xehanort and his Nobody Xemnas all have the same centre-parted hair. Xehanort assumed the name of his master, Ansem and sent Kairi to Destiny Islands to tap the power of the Keyblade Master, whom he felt was in Destiny Islands. He also banished Ansem the Wise from Radiant Garden.
*Ansem the Wise decided to befriend Darkness and travel in the realm of Nothingness, calling himself DiZ (Darkness in Zero).
*We know that Xehanort and company continued Ansem's research on darkness and created Heartless.
*Xehanort created many Heartless artificially and placed his emblem on them. Coincidentally, the Heartless emblem and the emblem worn by Terra, Ven and Aqua bear the same shape.
*We know that based on Ansem's Secret Reports, the mayhem of the Heartless have lasted some eleven years.
*A meteor shower took place in Destiny Islands, suggesting that the barrier of the world has crumbled. Kairi is the "new girl" in the mayor's house and Riku and Sora, who hear of her coming, talk about it in the Secret Place and decide to go and see her.
*Sora, Riku and Kairi grow up together.
*Riku, then 15, opened the Keyhole of Destiny Islands because he wanted to escape that island, and he rendered himself to darkness. Sora became the wielder of the Keyblade and went in search of his friends Riku and Kairi. Then we have the whole KHI, Chain of Memories and KHII story.
*We also know that Sora sacrificed his heart to save Kairi, creating his Nobody, Roxas - and when Sora was brought back to life, Roxas endured. Coincidentally, Roxas bears an uncanny resemblance to Ven.
*From the events in Final Mix+ we see that Xemnas sees Aqua's armour and Keyblade in the Room of Sleep and talks to it, and calls it Friend, and the armour seems to respond to him.
*Mickey Mouse refers to Xehanort/Xemnas/Xehanort's Heartless as '''Xehanort''' and not '''Terra'''. (IMHO, if Xehanort were really Terra, and he had lost his memory, the first name he could think of was the name of his master.)
*We know that someone who has forgotten how to wield the Keyblade cannot do it anymore. Terra was a Keyblade wielder. Xehanort wasn't. But Xehanort, in writing Ansem Reports, wanted to tap the power of the Keyblade master, and did not understand the power of the Keyblade, which is not likely for someone who has forgotten how to wield the Keyblade.
*Also, from the events of Final Mix+, someone called the Lingering Sentiment, with Terra's armour and Keyblade, attacked Sora and company, thinking Sora was Master Xehanort's ally.

From this course of events, what can we say ?}}

We can say that Terra's a jackass just like Xehanort, but seriously, We can put together that Terra is the only one able to be Xehanort, Ven is Sora's Unbirth, we have no clue who is Aqua, the apprentice looks like Dark form Riku, and that apperintly we are very good at puttin stuff together-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=LOL you got me on that one. :D Who '''IS''' Aqua anyway ? I guess Nomura must've done a good job doing her up because not a single soul can speculate who she is.}}

Well as far as we know, she died, or turned into heartless/nobody/unbirth because of her armor in Xemnas room, I've also seen that Xemnas in armor form vagly resembles Terra in his armor-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=What puzzles me the most is that Aqua's armour actually '''responded''' to Xemnas.}}

Well, there's two ways this could happen, one: her soul is possesing the armor, two: Xemnas is crazy-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|happytext=ROTFLMAO. :D Sounds plausible.}}

I vote on him being crazy, but  what I just thought the two heartless optional bosses, phantom and kurt ziza, they could be the apprintece-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

When Xigbar is talking to Zexion about the room of sleep (Where Aqua's armor is), he is ends by saying that: Maybe, in Calstle Oblivion, that's where the "other" room is. (Or something like that) What could be in the Other room?  [[User:Shg.siggi|Xiggie]]

{{TNE|text=What I know about the other room is that it's called the '''Room of Awakening''', and it is definitely in Castle Oblivion. Not sure what's in there, but that could've been the reason why Xemnas chose Castle Oblivion as an operating base in the first place.}}

Well the '''awakening''' could be what sora and roxas had to go through, exactly why I dont remember,  but it could be the awakening of the only one that's missing, Ven, so that could further help explain Ven choosing '''Way to Dawn''' as the castle was in the '''nobody''' castle, a castle of twilight- [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Maybe so. But the castle wasn't originally theirs, I'd say. No doubt, Castle Oblivion is situated in the Realm of In Between. They just came upon it, and seeing that no one actually had possession of the castle, they used it for themselves.}}

Ok, but technacly they are nobodies so '''no one''' is actually '''living''' there, but I get what your saying, so what  are the unbirth atributes? Heartless=Darkness. Nobodies=Nothingness/Twilight. Sora and friends=Light.-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=I suppose that, only Nomura knows. But what's the opposite of human life ? We can choose whichever power we want for ourselves, so to speak. If the Nobodies were a menace to beings of '''both''' Light and Darkness, then the Unbirths might've been a menace to them all - and them all here means all realms !}}

I thank you nailed it at '''menace'''. If you can't controll something powerful, than it causes '''chaos''' and if they're is a realm of chaos than the keyblade and its weilder would have to be one of the five new keyblade weilders from Birth By Sleep-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Sweet, a realm of chaos ! :D Now what, find Keyblade Master #5 in the sequel ?}}

Well, if all of the keblade Masters die or something in birth by sleep than there's gotta be a sequel with a keyblade master[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=In that case, a Keyblade master apart from Sora, Riku, Kairi and Mickey. Now, who could be that chaotic ?}}

Of course, but that would mean another major character, the revealing of Ven, Terra, and Aqua to Sora and the revealing of the new [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Well, Xehanort's apprentice was seen wielding a Keyblade.}}

Lol, we all totally got off track, but let's look at this. Xigbar seems to know the most about all this Birth by Sleep stuff, followed by Xemnas. So maybe Braig is the reason why Xehanort lost his memories. It could also explain why Xemnas and Xigbar never seem to like eachother. Another theory, is that Xehanort IS Terra, explaining the similar looks, and Braig was supposed to be like a keyblade master, but instead Terra was picked instead, and Braig did the same thing Riku did with Sora in KH1, and then they became friends again... I probably sound crazy, but from my point of view... no I am crazy-- Morghman

==What happened in the keyblade War?==
{{Xiggie|text=What do you think happened to all those keyblade wielders that must have had those keyblades at sunset horizons? (I think that when a keyblade-wielder dies, his or her keyblade appears there, stuck down in the ground, or maybe they can choose to do so and loose the power to wield the keyblade but still live) Perhaps this is just some crap coming out of me, hehe :D
But seriously, what does anyone think happened? has Nomura said anything about this? I need tho know! :D}}

No, Nomura hasn't said anything else. This realy isn't the place to ask something like this, but this topic piques my intrest: How do you know that there even were that many Keybalde weilders at one time? There can only be four Keyblade weilders (and their Nobodies, and possiblly their Heartless or Unbirths) at a time. There could be a number of diffrent explanations. Some of the Keyblades shown in the trailor are Sora's meaning they could represent memories, worlds, or people. It's also possible that those are the Keyblades of previous Keybalde weilders and that the Crossroads is where their Keyblades are laid to rest. Also, how to we even know the "Keyblade War" was fought with people? It's possible it was the Keyblades fighting themselves, resulting in the four Realm's (Realm of Light, Realm of Darkness, Realm of In Between, and Realm of Nothingness) indivigual Keyblades. Their's way too many possiblities to go further with this.
-[[User:Xnaminex|xNaminéx]]

 
:Maybe they (Ven, Terra, Aqua) didn't die but were passed one as the infulence of the next generation, but Terra apperantly goes evil, Riku, the '''origanil''' realm of light keyblader master, goes temporay evil, leaving the realm of light to chose Sora as, unlike Ven, the keyblade master of light, leaving Darkside to Aqua and Mickey, and the left over keyblade, Way to Dawn to Riku as, like Ven (I guess?), chose the road in between-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Well, as they say... you could save the world or wry ruin upon it with one single Keyblade. Someone's actually gotta control those Keyblades for there to be a war, right ?}}

Not necessarily. If the Keyblade can choose it's own master, why can't it fight by itself? And I didn't really mean a physical battle, I meant that the Keyblade War could possiley have been the interal power struggle between Light and Darkness for supremessy, thus creating the Keyblades of each Realm.-[[User:Xnaminex|xNaminéx]]

{{TNE|text=The Keyblade chooses its master, but definitely not its domain. It's ultimately up to the master to choose between light and darkness. So that's particularly why I said someone's gotta control these Keyblades for there to be a war.

Think about the time Riku chose the Realm of In Between and maybe you'd understand.}}

What about the Lingering Sentiment? If Terra is Xehanort, what is it then? Couldn't it be Terra's keyblade acting on its own? [[User: Veroso|Veroso]] 02:23, 27 January, 2009

The master has the Keyblade based on the domain. That's why Sora took the Kingdom Key, the Keyblade of Light. It orinally chose Riku, but since Riku chose darkness, the Kingdom Key chose Sora instead, because Sora's heart stayed in the Light. Riku has the Way to the Dawn, the Keybalde of In Between, because after Xehanort's Heartless posessed him, he tries to find his Light, but realized he could have both.
-[[User:Xnaminex|xNaminéx]]

{{TNE|text=There, I got you at "Riku chose darkness" - ultimately, it's a choice. The Keyblade has immense power, but how does one choose to use it ?

Veroso : Perhaps. But I have a feeling Terra may not be Xehanort. See above. If it's Terra's Keyblade acting on its own, where did the wielder come from ?}}

Oh. I see what your saying. The weilder chooses their own path. But what i'm saying is that the keyblade they get is based off the path they choose.-[[User:Xnaminex|xNaminéx]]

So who is Xehanort? The second most probable suspect seems to be MX's apprentice. [[User:Veroso|Veroso]] 02:50, 27 January, 2009

{{TNE|text=Maybe so. I can't say for sure. But well, he seems suspicious enough. Same bodysuit as Riku's, same attribute and alignment as always - darkness - and always willing to take the protagonist out. Whadaya think ?}}

He's apperantly dark, possiby one of the later Org. XIII members, Xehanort, defentley not a final fantasy character, but each weilder has a new generation version, Ven=Sora. Terra=Riku. Aqua=Kairi/Mickey (due to the Darkside). So the question is, Who in Kh1, CoM, and Kh2 is the equevelint of The Apperintance?-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=No idea. Methinks he'd come out in the sequel to Birth By Sleep, Days and Coded.}}

Isn't it obvious? Saix and the Guardian all remind you of the Apprentice! 13:44, 28 January, 2009 [[User:Veroso|Veroso]]

{{TNE|text=The Guardian, perhaps. But Saix has '''absolutely nothing''' gotta do with the Apprentice.}}

Saix has no keyblade, but the Guardian could be a side affect from Xehanort's Heartless powers, any one thinking anti-sora?[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Or maybe anti-anyone of the three Keyblade knights...}}

Well, Aqua's out. Terra's muslcel structure seems bigger, Ven seem a canident-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=No, wait, it '''cannot''' be. Xehanort and his apprentice were seen apart from Terra, Ven and Aqua. It '''has''' to be someone else.}}

Sora, Riku, Roxas, Mickey, and Kairi are 5 outta 6 of the current keybladers. Sora and Roxas are taken by Ven, Riku is taken by Terra, Kairi and Mickey are taken by Aqua, we have '''no clue''' who's the other have of Xion, but its probaly '''not''' the Apperantice, but who,who else, it can't be final fantasy,could it just be a dark younger clone of MX or is it a acuall person, and what's the deal with the name "Xehanort" any way, I guess its was one sell or something-[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

Okay I lost this at xNaminex's comment since when are there only four keyblade masters?
In the "another report" (Official commentary by Nomura I linked to it on the Main page's talk section too lazy to do so here) it is specificaly stated that this is not the case. While there is probably a keyblade for each realm those are not the only one's. I have no idea where that idea could have originated from

Since when are there only four keybalde masters when Nomura specificaly said there are more?
Oh Yee of little faith
http://www.kingdomhearts3.net/another-report/pages-28-29/#ar
"as many as there are qualified hearts"

They are '''5''' seen keybladers in Birth by Sleep, '''6''' (counting the nobodies) keybladers in the mainstream comunity as of now, who knows, 368/2 or something might have another keyblader, coded might not, so all we can rely on is Nomura's word and screen shots, and for those who are confused '''keyblader''' is what Hades called Sora in Kingdom Hearts II and I sounds kinda cool- [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Five seen Keybladers in Birth By Sleep, plus Mickey, Sora, Riku and Kairi - that makes nine. And Xion. Ten.}}

And if Xion is not the nobody of Aqua, and if my theory is right than Xion posseses the keyblade due to being expiremnted by the Organization with some of Sora's memories, such as the ability to be a keyblader, than she, like roxas, is a fragment of a keyblader, or this theory could be completely wrong, go figure	[[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|text=Oh snap, here comes the question : does there '''have''' to be so many Keyblade wielders ? Makes no justice to the phrase "chosen one".}}

It could mean the chosen one of '''light''', since Riku is in between, Mickey is darkness, and Kairi is apperantly nothingness [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

Has the phrase "Chosen one" ever actually been used.(Quote the damn Scene)

Leon used it. After he knocks Sora out cold, I can't remeber the quote, but either he or Yuffie says it [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

I looked up both versions of that scene and thatis a LIE!(mad twitching) anyhoo there is mention of the "keyblade's chosen one" but with the theory that "The Voice"(capitals) is the keyblade that might be literal (if there is more than one keyblade... and there is)then they all get to choose.(no backsies)

Sorry, coulda sorn one of them said it, but I know for sure that Axel used it refering to Roxas [[User:Clarkmaster|Clarkmaster]]

{{TNE|blahtext=That "Chosen one" phrase is used by Leon, Yen Sid, Axel and quite a few others.}}

Since a Heartless is a heart that is lost in darkness and a Nobody is a body that lost its heart, I'm guessing an Unbirth is a being that's made or "born" when unnatural creatures like Nobodies and Heartless are made. Or maybe instead of the darkness, it's the Unbirths that makes a heart into a Heartless and a body into a Nobody. Or here's another theory: Now in Kingdom Hearts, there was a lot of Heartless. In Kingdom Hearts 2, there was still a lot of Heartless and a small number of Nobodies. My theory is in Birth By Sleep, there was a lot of Unbirths that were created by Master Xenahort and his apprentice, who Xenahort chose over his former apprentices, the Chasers (He saw that the Chasers were weak and small-minded and unwilling to gain true power). These Unbirths were all destroyed by Ven, Aqua, and Terra. [[User:Augment96|Augment96]] 04:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

{{Xiggie|text=I think that all those theories are illogical. If the Unbirts are doing something that happens during KH - KHII (like your 1st and 2nd theory suggests) Then Where the hell were they? However, your 3rd theory is slightly "better", but I think it is not posable that Terra, Aqua and Ven destroyed ALL of the Unbirths in ALL of the Worlds! It just doesn't seem right!

I think that something happened during this keyblade war that destroyed all of the unbirths (if they weren't all destroyed, then where were they in the other KH games?) }}

{{TNE|text=Okay. Guys. I'm getting confused. One person is explaining, another is explaining while the third is complicating things up while I am stuck in the middle of this chaos.

I think we'd better take this dispute to a new section, what say you ?}}

{{Xiggie|text=Sure :P}}

== Heartless,Nobody,and Unbirth ==

{{Gohantalk|time=Breath into new life,Kuro Megami!|text=Is it a possibility that the Unbirth's that are the Body? Because as we all know,Heartless=Heart,Nobody=Soul
So it could be that the Unbirths are the Bodies,and what does this mean:

They are, in essence, "the opposite of human life." I still don't understand that.}}



Well what you say is wrong i think.
people have hearts. something without a heart = heartLESS
people have bodies. something withouth a body = NObody
people have souls. something without a soul, meaning that it has never been born. =unbirth.

The opposite of life is something wich hasn't been born. because death is part of the circle of life, it isn't the opposite.

{{Xiggie|text=You're wrong... 

When someone (with a heart, body and Soul) is consumed by darkness, the darkness in his heart is given shape and form, therefore making a Heartless, however, if that person is a strong hearted individual turns into a heartless, "the empty shell he leaves behind starts to act with a will of its own", therefore creating a Nobody.

Unbirths can't have anything to do with this process. Otherwise, there would be Unbirths in the other games!

It's weird...

Heartless actually have hearts... and a body of darkness...

Nobodies actually have bodies... and a soul... but no heart

maybe Unbirths have a soul... and a heart...

Who knows?}}

{{Gohantalk|time=Absolute Power;If your lucky,it corrupts quickly!|text=Well I guess we'll just have to wait until BBS to find out.}}

==Unbirth - Unborn==
It may be referring to beings that never had the chance to be born. If that is right, then it will explain why an Unbirth isn't present in the original games, seeing how Heartless and Nobodies are already born beings. [[User:Charmed-Jay]]

{{Xiggie|text=eh, how does that explain it?}}

It's called "Unbirth" and refers to the opposite of human life. if not death, then it mean never-born. maybe the spirit that died before it could hatch in a body. [[User:Charmed-Jay]]

Heartless are created from the hearts of people who fall into darkness. Nobodies are created from those people who lose their hearts. IMO, Unbirths are created from souls who don't have hearts and/or bodies. Simple, makes sense. [[User:Drake Clawfang|Drake Clawfang]] 20:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

{{Gohantalk|time=These a Thin line between Darkness and Light,Which side are you on?|text=So Unbirths are the Soul? Hm...makes sense.But who did they come to be? Who made them? Are they Created the same way Heartless or Nobodies are? So many questions,it mask my head hurt.}}

{{Xiggie|text=That makes good sense! hmm, they seem to be both pureblood (made naturally) and emblem (someone made them)... and there are no unbirths in the other KH ames... wonder what happened}}

==Origin==

{{saule|text=Well since theres seems to be  a chain in all these beings human+darkness=heartless and shell (aka nobody) Where cood the unbirths come from. (besides the obvious i gess which is death)}}

{{Drake|time=07:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)|text=The Unbirths are born of light.

The way I see it, it's simple logic to deduce some fundamental facts about them. Think about it.

Heartless - Darkness - Heart<br>
Nobody - Nothingness - Body<br>
Unbirth - Light - Soul<br>

Fits perfectly, IMO.}}

{{Gohantalk|time=Stop everything and look at me,Dammit!|text=That looks like it makes sense,however,IMO,I don't think the Unbirths are light,I think there are Dusk(in between Darkness and Light)but I could see is they where light(sense with in every heart is both Light and Darkness)and if it is true,then how are they created?}}

{{saule|text= well that makes sense Drake but couldn't it be this way:
Human Form- Light- Normal <br>
Heartless- Dark - Heart <br>
Nobody- Nothingness - Body <br>
Unbirth - Twilight - Soul <br>

and i heard the unbirths are suppose to represent savageness so i could be nothing of what we said. }}


Twilight=Nothingness, in the context of KH.

Heartless are hearts (emotion, darkness), but the heart also has to act as the body, and so since the heart can't work full time on its real job, the creature acts "Heartless".

Nobodies are bodies (form, twilight), but the body also has to emulate emotions and thought (which is why when they emulate emotion, it's always so dramatic and theatrical, and they don't use body language), so it too is working overtime. Thus, the body cannot fully just be "there", which makes them seem insubstantial, like they don't fully exist. (Technically, Nobodies have souls as well, but most important is the body). The strongest Nobodies, best able to emulate emotion, seem to have filled their hearts with the element they represent - which is why Axel has a passionate, fiery personality, warm but destructive; Roxas is pure and high-minded; Larxene is caustic, quick to anger, and tantalizing; Vexen is haughty and arrogant (cold); and Marluxia is vain and focused on death (cherry blossoms being a symbol of death in Japan).

Unbirth's are presumably just souls (mind, light) - trying to emulate form and emotion, but being quite similar to the concept of the "soul waiting to be put in a body" that you get between Reincarnation, or before incarnation, etc. Thus, they represent something that is no longer alive, or has never been. As the mind is an abstract, it is the least substantial of the three - a body is purely physical, and a heart is a thing of the world, but the soul is eternal. Thus, by itself, it is even more "nonexistant" than the others. The Ansem Report's specifically explain that without the heart, a barely existent Nobody (body and soul) is formed, and a Nobody without a body (a soul only) soon fades away completely. Birth by Sleep will probably give a setting which allows the Souls to survive on their own for some reason; as it is a prequel, maybe the war of the keyblades actually had something to do with making sure souls went away once the body and heart ended. Maybe they had a ghost problem?

A Heartless, once destroyed, liberates the heart from darkness. A Nobody, once defeated, seems to have their body actually destroyed (since they are at least, physically there), leaving the soul behind. Unbirths could very well be a setup for what happens to a dying Nobody, and the mythos about them will probably set up a way for the Organization members to come back in some form.

A whole person, a being, is all three of these. They are not represented by any specific direction on light-dark, and may choose at their own will. While not "nothingness/twilight", they are a blank slate, so a whole may fill themselves with light (Sora), darkness (Riku), or nothingness (Xehanort).

It was actually pretty clear this was the mythology they were going to create since Chain of Memories - people (including me) were calling it before KHII came out.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>survived intact.</small>]] 18:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

{{saule|text= but isnt ther a difference between twilight and nothingness? ie. Riku chose twilight (in between light and dark) in CoM. and nothingness would be well nothing like nobodies and what not.}}
:...noo...Xemnas makes it absolutely rock-solid clear that nothingness, the nobodies, are "in between light and dark"/"teetering on the edge"/etc. Then, you've got Twilight Town, the epicenter of nearly all Nobodies.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>survived intact.</small>]] 19:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

{{saule|text= true statement. so i gess unbirths are jus sumthin different on their own.....}}

== Combination? ==

Maybe they're the combination of a nobody and the heartless that came from it. That would explain the small population. The reason that they  are the opposite of human life is that this time their hearts are pure darkness, no light at all.


===Or===
Unbirths could be (I am making a wild guess) born when a nobody and a heartless reunite and fuse together. Thus a person is becoming unborn. [[User:Dark one|Dark one]] 01:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
{{Twoface13|I came up with a similar theory (click on ''light'' above) but as was pointed out, the unbirths appeared '''''before''''' the heartless and nobodies.|}}

==In Kingdom Hearts II==
Just throwing this one out there. My friend and I restarted Kingdom Hearts II for the umpteenth time last night, and at the part where Roxas takes Naminé's drawing to the library, I though of something. You know how there are three symbols he has to draw in? You only get to see two: the Heartless and Nobody symbol. This is just a guess, but maybe the third one that the light blocks out is the unbirth symbol. Sorry if someone already mentioned this... ><;; [[User:Daydreamer3173|Daydreamer3173]]


GREAT THEORY. I think yours works. =) --Zack fair 007 23:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

that symbol was a crown (perhaps a "Somebody" or "Complete" emblem)and we already have an Unbirth symbol.and this theory has been stated thousands of times.Good try though.Swing and a miss.

Ah, well, I never heard it before, so I wasn't sure. What a shame. ><; -[[User:Daydreamer3173|Daydreamer3173]]

==Variation on the theories flying around==
There are umpteen theories on this, and mine bears some similarities, but I direct you [[User:Sorceror_Nobody#Unbirths|'''here''']] for the simple core idea of my theory... that Unbirths are the result of the Body being separated from the Heart and Soul {{User:Sorceror Nobody/Sig|21:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)}}

{{Morghman|I say enough of the Birth by Sleep theories, just let Mickey do all the work for us, he always has.}}

== A summary of my thoughts ==

I've seen a pattern among the Heartless, Nobodies and Unbirth; One aspect of it is complete, one is corrupt and one is missing. By aspect, I mean body, heart and soul. It works like this:
*Heartless: Has a complete body, a corrupt heart, and *possibly* no soul.
*Nobody: Has a *possibly* complete soul, a corrupt (discarded) body and no heart.
So following this pattern, an Unbirth would go like this:
*Unbirth: Has a complete heart, a corrupt soul and no body.
Does this work? [[User:Maggosh|Maggosh]] 23:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

== Unbirth is possibly the soul ==

I dont like how everyone is just debunking all the unbirth = soul theorys because "they never showed up in other games" Im sorry but did nobodys show up at all in Kingdom hearts (the original). If your gonna argue "Xemnas appeared as a mystery boss in Final mix" he was not identified as a nobody, just a guy in a cloak. Yes they evolved on the idea but how do we know that a Unbirth hasnt shown up, for all we know Terra could have been transformed into a unbirth. Aqua's armor responds in the end to Xemnas, how do we know that she isnt an unbirth also just trapped in her armor somehow (like her soul was trapped, and if your gonna say thats impossible, The game has little hearts coming out of dead shadow creatures, almost nothing is impossible in this game.) For all we know Xehanort/Xemnas/Ansem (heartless) Is what terra became. IT makes sense. Xehanort looks like terra, in 358/2 days he gives a scene that mirrors the one terra does to ven, When Xehanort arrived on Raident Garden he had no memory of his past, its possible that he remembered Master Xehanorts name and took it as his own. Ansem planned to unlock Xehanort's memory, maybe xehanort continued that idea, or when he turned heartless/nobody/unbirth his memory unlocked. Would explain a few things, Why he called Aqua's armor friend, why he acted friendly to Roxas (similariy in appearance), Why he looks like terra in various ways. After Xemnas was created, Ansem (Heartless) Was created and Terra Could be the unbirth. We have no idea how Unbirth feel, but if they are souls then its possible that they do indeed have emotions, which means that The darkness manifested in heartless and nobody forms but his unbirth being his soul, may have been conflicted and thats why he isnt exactly "Evil" just confused and hostile. There is a similar theory (i honestly didnt take anything from it i jus realised it 2 secondsd ago) on Terra's page. If Terra is an unbirth it would explain alot. it would be a time line like this: Terra-Xehanort(after memory loss)-Experiment-Creates Ansem Xemnas and Terra (unbirth)-Ansem takes the look of MX-Xemnas gets rid of Terra (unbirth) and takes Aqua's armor (the friend comment)-Terra (Unbirth) Being the manifestation of Terra (normal)'s soul he is conflicted between good and evil (like riku in a sense) Which is why he doesnt act evil just full of emotions, Mostly regret, grief etc. Why dont unbirths show up? Its possible that Xemnas, seeing how emotional Terra is, purposely makes sure that no more unbirths show up. This theory gives credit to Terra's nicknames on his page, Why Xemnas cant find "his heart" when he attempts to claim it from KH because it would be Terra's, Why his eyes turn yellow, its possible that terra's hair turned white as well. This theory gives credit to unbirths being souls as well because, if Terra is the unbirth, then it would prove that souls manifest as well into beings, Souls dont go with nobodys or heartless as they always said that the Heartless is what happens when someone falls prey to the darkness, No body or soul. There is NOTHING that says the nobody has the soul, thats just an assumption, they are whats left of the body as the soul would possess certain emotions, and may possess them all as the heartless dont show emotion as they are not in control of themselves. Ansem does show emotion, anger, but so does the nobodys, he may have been faking it as well. We dont know much about the unbirth so nooone can say a theory is wrong, or right. Unless ofcourse someone says that the darness of a heart isnt a heartless but a unbirth or something in which case its obviously wrong. please comment on how you feel, btw i used Terra/Xemnas/Ansem because they show the most about their respective beings (Terra being my theory ofcourse.)-- Whitedragon254 23:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== My Theory ==

{{AbOhWn|text=Okay the suffix "un" means not right? So knowing that, we can say that unbirth means "not birth", meaning "not born". I think this means that unbirths are what a person is before they are born. This would explain Ven's resbemence to Roxas.}}
{{Xiggie|text=If you say that, then Heart'''less''' and '''No'''bodies should '''not''' have Hears (for Heartless) and Bodies (for Nobodies), which they do !}}
{{AbOhWn|text=Wait that doesn't makes sense. Why wouldn't the Heartless and Nobodies have hearts and bodies?}}
{{Xiggie|time=15:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)|text=No, I'm saying that they '''do''' have hearts and bodies.

I was just saying how your theory doesn't work out. I'll explain this a little better:

* Heartless have '''Hearts''' and a '''Body''' of darkness, but no soul. Although they do in fact have Hearts, they're called Heart'''less'''!
* Nobodies have '''Bodies''' and '''Souls''', but not hearts. Although they do in fact have bodies, they're called '''No'''bodies!

So, with that information, I assume that '''Un'''births do have souls and hearts, but no body...? I don't know...}}

Well, Yensid said nobodies were "A spirit that goes on, even as it's body fades from existence." And, "Nobodies do not truly exist at all." And the Heartless aren't hearts, they are the darkness of people's hearts, and they steal hearts. I'm with AbOhWn on this one, though, knowing Square Enix, they'll probably make up something else that will knock us all on our backs. I don't understand why people who haven't been born yet would be evil though... but it's a start. Me, I've given up on theories. I'm just gonna wait til it comes out. And not when the Japanese one comes out. I don't want spoilers. I just want to find out for myself. [[User:Mcoolister|Mcoolister]]

{{Xiggie|time=17:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)|text=I never said that Heartless '''were''' hearts, I said that they '''have''' hearts. there's a big difference!}}

Oh! Sorry, my bad. I read it wrong. X| [[User:Mcoolister|Mcoolister]]

==A Very Merry Unbirthday==
Hmm... it would seem that no one gave any notice to Roxas-rules' comment about the Mad Hatter's song. [[User:Mcoolister|Mcoolister]] 21:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

==Symbol==

{{Template:Xeyj|time=06:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|text=has anyone seen the pic with the heartless symbol with the nobody symbol ontop of it, it looks like the unbirth symbol.[[Image:Heartless + nobody = unbirth symbol.jpg]]}}

== These aren't even called Unbirths in english. ==

{{GS|time=17:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)|text=An article from one of the new magazines has a BBS interview, which is currently being translated at KHI.  Apparently, in the interview it says this:

"Megaton: They are not "unbirths". The English name is "unversed", meaning "ones not well-versed in existence" or "ones that do not understand life".

The translator then goes on to say:

"Unbirths" is a mistranslation. This article writes it out what it's supposed to be in English - "unversed" - and then further explains the literal meaning. We've been mis-understanding the phonetic Japanese all this time."

So yeah, waiting on the rest of the interview.}}
{{EO|time=17:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)|happytext=Wouldn't the correct translation be "inversed"?}}
:"Unversed" is a real word and "inversed" isn't, if Forefox's spellchecker is anything to go by.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 18:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
{{EO|time=18:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)|happytext=Guess I'm thinking math : inverse opperations (lit. the opposite of what has been done.) This may describe these so called "Unversed."}}
{{KrytenKoro|...eh. "Unversed" doesn't really fit the naming scheme we've had so far, and doesn't make sense with the "opposite of human life" bit, so I'd be really loathe to change everything until we get the actual Japanese text and can check it.}}
{{ShadowXemnas|text=Well, wait no more. I just checked KHInsider and looked at a (rough) translation of the interveiw with Tetsuya Nomura that confirms the information. Just like Guardian Soul said, they're called the "Unversed" in english, meaning ones who are not well-versed in the ways of life/existence. It goes on to say that they are created from negative emotions. No further explanation was made into how or why. It's very interesting. Other than the Unversed, the interview went on to discuss the Castle of Dreams and Deep Space (Sorry, everyone. KH will not be visiting Hawaii this year), the Command Deck system (Said to be similar to CoM, but very different), and a small mention of KHIII. Just a mention, no hints or anything.}}
{{GS|time=19:25, 25 August 2009 (UTC)|text=http://www.khinsider.com/latest/new-famitsu-nomura-interview.html}}
{{unbirthtalk|text=Cool, now my nickname don't mean anything anymore...}}
{{GS|time=20:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)|text=There's nothing wrong with your name regardless.

Also, Kryten, I'd like to point out that they wrote 'Unversed' in English.}}