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| {{Hotdragon|time=20:03, July 29, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's a good question, i wonder... Because Tifa first appears in KH2 and she never mentions in the KH1.}} | | {{Hotdragon|time=20:03, July 29, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's a good question, i wonder... Because Tifa first appears in KH2 and she never mentions in the KH1.}} |
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| == Tifa's symbolism == | | ==Was her classic attire "too sexy" to appear in the first game?== |
| "Her role in Kingdom Hearts II is the manifestation of Cloud's inner light."
| | [http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101026084953/finalfantasy/images/d/dd/Tifa-d012ff-artwork.png Tifa's ''Dissidia 012'' artwork, which is based on her classic ''Final Fantasy VII'' appearance] |
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| Like I said before, these are not what these two quotes are saying:
| | I get the strange feeling that the reason why she wasn't included in the first ''Kingdom Hearts'' was because her classic ''Final Fantasy VII'' attire and her big boobs were considered to be "too sexy" to appear in the game. They allowed her to appear in the second game, but in her ''Advent Children'' attire, which is more covered-up than her classic attire, but still gave her very little screen time compared to her fellow ''Final Fantasy VII'' characters. Of course, now she's in ''Dissidia 012'', and is dressed in her classic ''Final Fantasy VII'' attire (along with her ''Advent Children'' attire as an alternate outfit), and in battle, her boobs jiggle. Do you think the reason why she wasn't allowed in the first ''Kingdom Hearts'' was because she was "too sexy?" And why did Nomura have to choose reusing her ''Advent Children'' attire instead of redesigning her like all the other ''Final Fantasy VII'' characters? |
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| * "As a symbol of light, like Sephiroth, it's possible that she too was incorporeal. That last scene where she goes off to search for Cloud, you could say, is a metaphor for how Cloud's light still hasn't lost him, even though he's disappeared off with his darkness, and it is trying to shine on him again…"
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| * I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light"; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human. The reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn't exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can freely think for yourself about her.
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| These two quotes are simply saying it's a possible symbolism, but you are free to interpret Tifa however you wish. Nothing about them claim Tifa, without a doubt, is some ''physical manifestation'' of an element. That's why Nomura is using language like "it's possible", "you could say", "in that sense you can take it", "may be because", "she could also be". Nomura isn't claiming anything as factual. As seen in the second quote, he's letting players interpret Tifa however they wish. I interpreted her as a real human being who simply cares about Cloud. I never interpreted her as some strange "physical manifestation of light who isn't really human". It's a cute possible metaphor/symbolism, but I strongly disagree with the wiki pushing this metaphor as factual. Anything more than simply claiming "Tifa is ''symbolic'' of light" is original research and interpretation, and I heavily disagree with the "physical manifestation" bit. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 17:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::The quotes are saying that Tifa ''is'' Cloud's light, and that ''that may mean'' she is incorporeal. You are misapplying the "that may mean" to be at the beginning of that sentence, rather than the middle.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::On a side note, there is nothing strange within the setting about a "physical manifestation who isn't really human". The games are dripping with them.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:06, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :::No, they're not saying Tifa ''is'' Cloud's light. At most, they're saying she's a ''symbol'' of light. Being symbolic of something, and being literally something, are two completely different things. Yes, I know these games have light and darkness as actual forces, but he still mentioned ''symbol'', meaning she is not necessarily literally light or a manifestation of light. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 22:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :::"If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light" -- Yes, Nomura did say that. I'm not seeing how that is anything other than saying Tifa is Cloud's light.
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| :::Without getting a look at the original Japanese, I can't state it for certain, but I'm not seeing the difference in connotation you're claiming between Tifa being a manifestation of Cloud's light vs. being a symbol of his light.
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| :::Furthermore, let's just be clear about the context of these -- Nomura is still saying that's how they originally wanted to present her, but they decided to make it a little more vague. He still talks more about her being incorporeal than he does about her being human, so I'm not seeing how it's a strange or unsupportable claim to take that as the default.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::::You're still ignoring and handwaving the ''"as a symbol"'' part. And the "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light" is simply that - an "if". And it's possible he was still talking in symbolism with that line. This part also contradicts the previous line; is Sephiroth light or darkness? If you can't tell the difference being a literal physical manifestation as opposed to mere symbolism/metaphor, then this conversation can't go anywhere. That part was in quotation marks and he said "if" so I view it as Nomura talking in ideas and hypotheticals, not a statement there. Nomura ''also'' said "we also wanted to present the possibility of her being a normal human" and "I think you can freely think for yourself about her." At the end of the day, putting "manifestation" on the wiki is editorializing, cherry picking, and interpretation-as-fact pushing. We should replace "manifestation" with "symbolism" and nothing more. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 23:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :"You're still ignoring and handwaving the "as a symbol" part." -- No, I'm not. I already specifically responded to that, with the caveat that ''neither'' of us can insist on what that means without looking at the original Japanese text.
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| ::Symbols: Please remember that you're looking at a translation and that comma placement by a translator is not really respective of the original text. Let me highlight the conjunction that actually is coherent with the entire rest of the canon and interviews here:
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| :::"As a symbol of light, '''like Sephiroth, it's possible that she too was incorporeal.'''"
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| ::To rephrase "it's possible that she too was incorporeal like Sephiroth".
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| ::"and he said "if"" --You are pushing ''way'' too much weight on specific particles being used in what is a ''fan-translation'' (and a very ''early'' one, to be clear) of a Japanese interview.
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| ::"putting "manifestation" (come back to this later) on the wiki is editorializing, cherry picking, and interpretation-as-fact pushing." -- the source you are referencing ''explicitly'' treats it as more valid than her being a regular human. To be clear -- by your logic it would be ''more'' "editorializing" (come back to this later) to claim she is merely human.
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| ::''It's not editorializing to treat something the author suggested could be valid as valid.'' Editorializing is ''introducing'' opinion into a reporting of facts. Not treating what the authors stated is likely true, ''or what they specifically say was originally more explicitly stated'', as valid.
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| ::But most importantly, you keep leaving out ''that the article is specifically talking about her '''role'''''. '''''Role'''''. As in, the job she has as a character in the story (via ''metaphor and symbolism''), not ''her in-universe physical nature''. Like I said before, in the context of what the article is ''actually'' stating, "I'm not seeing the difference in connotation you're claiming between Tifa being a manifestation of Cloud's light vs. being a symbol of his light."{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::::If you're going to say that we should get the original text, then we should remove it entirely for now. It still seems as if you're severely downplaying the symbolism aspect here. If a fan-translation indeed uses quotation marks and language like "if", then we should not just take it as factual. The nuances of language are extremely important when it comes to matters like these. Just because "she's a manifestation" may be more accurate and with the developer's intent than "she's a real human", it does not mean we should have either. At the end of the day, the article is saying something an interview does not. "Manifestation" implies ideas like "fantasy becoming real", and that some external force (i.e. light) is the reason why Tifa exists. It's too vague and most people would not interpret "Tifa is a manifestation of his light" the same way as "Tifa is symbolic of Cloud's light". Just because ''you'' don't see the difference in connotation, it does not mean other people don't. This is why we should be precise with our language. Just because Nomura is saying things like "it's possible that ____" and talking about it more than other possibilities, it does not mean we get to claim it as factual. We should not have "Tifa is only human" on the wiki either because there's no factual source for it, which is the same logic as why we should not have "Tifa is a manifestation of light" as there's no source for it. If you don't see the difference in connotation, then you wouldn't care if I change it to "Tifa is a symbol of Cloud's light?" then? After all, there's no difference to you then. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 00:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :Dude. The article straight up doesn't say what you're claiming. You keep insisting that that sentence is talking about her physical nature, when it's explicitly talking about her ''role''. Yes, I would care if you change it to say "Tifa is a symbol of Cloud's light", because then you'd be making a stronger claim than the interviews do. I straight up don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm claiming Tifa is a creature made of light, like Sora, when I've ''repeatedly'' stated that that's not my claim.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::I don't really see the problem. We're not claiming Tifa is a "physical manifestation of light who isn't really human", we're only claiming her ''role'' is that of Cloud's inner light. We never say that she is actually Cloud's light. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::::The connotations of ''manifestation'' heavily don't align with what the interview is saying. The most the interviews are saying, factually, is that Tifa is only a symbol of light. Nowhere does it claim anything to do with light is with her role beyond symbolism. "Manifestation" implies something tangible and a real force (light) is the reason for her role, which is never explicitly stated, especially when the interview clearly uses the language "symbol" and "metaphor". It is wrong for this wiki to use ''manifestation'' and ''role'' (''symbolic role'' is better) in this situation because of the connotations. This phrasing would be far better for the article and align with what the interview is saying: "Her symbolic role is that of Cloud's inner light." Is this fine? [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 20:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ==Scrapped BbS Plan==
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| [https://www.khinsider.com/news/Full-Nomura-Interview-20-KH-Mysteries-Solved-1366 I found the interview where Nomura-sensei explained why other FF characters were cut out of BbS, but all Nomura-sensei said was "Cid and gang in Radiant Garden" was planned to be in the game before the plan was cut]. Isn't it too much of leap to assume that Tifa and Cloud counted among them? If so, then shouldn't that info be removed?--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 22:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
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| :I would think. Cloud was very much never part of Cid's gang, and also, he fucked off into space.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:06, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
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| ::It sounds too much of a speculation to assume that Cloud and Tifa would have been included among Squall and the RG gang. If anyone has any objections, please say now. Otherwise, I'll remove the part of Cloud and Tifa from the articles tomorrow.--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 03:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
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| :::I think it's safe to say Tifa was never part of the gang, especially with the whole "being Cloud's light" thing, but I do think Cloud was. During the KH1 credits, you can see Cid bringing Cloud back to Hollow Bastion, and the others do recognize him, so they knew each other already. He just never made it to Traverse Town with the rest. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 09:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
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| ::::I would agree that he was a friend of theirs, but I'm assuming that "Cid and the gang" was originally "Cid-tachi", and Cloud wouldn't be close enough to be included in that, just like Sora-tachi would refer to Sora, Donald, and Goofy, but not Riku or Kairi.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
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| :::::I agree with KrytenKoro. If we're sticking with how Squall and the others were first introduced, then "Cid and gang" refers to Squall, Aerith, Yuffie, and Cid, but not Cloud and Tifa.--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 03:13, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
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| :::::::Fair enough. I suppose we won't know for certain whether he is or isn't part of the gang unless Nomura makes it clear, and we shouldn't speculate. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 07:10, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
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| ::::::::I'll remove the speculation from the relevant articles.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
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