Editing Talk:The Experiment

{{Randomnessity|kraken=Should this be titled "Experiment" or is it officially called ''the'' Experiment in Jiminy's Journal?}}
{{LevL|time=17:50, March 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=According to the Journal, it is called ''The'' Experiment.}}
{{Randomnessity|tiamat=All right. Good to know. Since that's the '''''official''''' name that's the way it should stay.}}
:I dunno, starting a page with "the" is pretty dumb in my opinion.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 22:59, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
{{TNE|time=01:56, March 14, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=I believe that if there is an article in the official records, then it should start with the article. I mean, come on... It does sound a little weird ; but when I compare with my second most familiar version - ''Radiant Garden'' and ''Jardin Radieux'' (no article), ''The Experiment'' and ''L’Expérience'' (definite article). Well of course, there are going to be discrepancies for characters like the Beast, who is simply called Beast in the English version, and other characters like the Prince and the Queen (Dwarf Woodlands characters have this anomaly, I've noticed). So where there is going to be an assumption that you're talking about something in general (like, which prince, and which queen ?), it's best to have an article.

I stand corrected, and I'm waiting for the English release of BBS to see what they come up with.}}
{{KrytenKoro|We could move "[[Prince]]" to whatever name he has in the Disney materials, which would ease confusion between "[[Prince Philip]]" and the article that was formerly known as "[[Prince]]".}}
{{neumannz|time=03:43, March 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=He has a name?}}

== Poor Experiment ==

{{LyingMemories|time=[[User:Lying Memories|Lying Memories]] 01:10, August 6, 2010 (UTC)|luxord= I gotta be honest here, I seriously felt bad for The Experiment, looking for a heart, never receiving one, only to be bashed and beaten by Sora and company. I feel the same for most of the Organization, but the Experiment had no malice behind its actions.}}

== FMII ==

What is Sora's prize in FMII?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
:HP increase. {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 19:59, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

==Heartless==
Hi, guys, I only want to say to you The Experiment is officially an Heartless, if you press pause during the battle the info say "Defeat the artificial HEARTLESS made by Dr. Finkelstein... bla bla bla", yhea, you can say "but it can be an error", yhea, that CAN be an error, but, look what I found.
http://www.destinyislands.com/kh-tcg/endless-darkness/
The Experiment card is classified as a "Heartless", and I doubt they made for 2 times the same error. So I think he is a Heartless.--[[Special:Contributions/189.39.241.193|189.39.241.193]] 21:33, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
:Artificial Heartless =/= Heartless. It's a mechanical creation, and wasn't made either from the darkness of a heart or the typical Emblem manufacturing process. I also wouldn't use the word of the TCG as law. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 13:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
::It's not a Heartless, but we should still mention it's designed to be an artificial Heartless.[[Special:Contributions/67.236.72.165|67.236.72.165]] 17:40, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::Guys, I was quite interested about the Experiment's race, and I want to see a thing to have the ultimate proof if he is a Heartless or not, and he IS a Heartless. Why? Well, there is 3 proofs of this:
*1-During the battle if you put the game in pausa will call him "Heartless"
*2-In TCG he is classified as Heartless (not Villain, Villain have a dark flame symbol, Heartless have the Heartless symbol, and The Experiment have the Heartless symbol in his card)
*3-This is the ultimate proof. I noticed that the Wisdom and Final Form gain experience even if you kill Heartless boss (for Wisdom) and Nobodies (for Final), I noticed this because I unlocked the Final Form against Xigbar and kill him, and after the battle I noticed the Final Form had 1 EXP even if I killed just Xigbar with it. So I wanted to do this experiment with The Experiment too, using the Wisdom Form, resulting... The Experiment GIVE EXP to Wisdom Form, proving he is definively a Heartless (I thinked Hostile Program too was a Heartless and I do the same thing, but Hostile Program DON'T give EXP per WF), so The Experiment is a Heartless. If you don't belive me, please go to check yourself--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.40.21|186.237.40.21]] 21:12, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
::::Well, that's certainly interesting. It's still weird that it's not covered in the Heartless section of the journal, which seems to indicate as discussed in the article that it has qualities of a Heartless without being fully a Heartless, sort of like the Soul Eater's situation. We should do a check with all the unspecified bosses in this game, I think.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::I think is not covered in Heartless section just because The Experiment in the second visit of HT is a true character, I mean, all the second visit is focused about The Experiment, others Heartless bosses you just defeat them and over there. I suspect the Scar's Ghost too is a Heartless, but since in Pride Lands I cannot use fusions, is impossible to verify without doubt... but for the Experiment, how we can see, there is 3 different proofs that indicate he is a Heartless, and the fact he appear in the character section in the journal, is just because he is in fact a true character in-game, with a role in the story, so I suggest to change the template to be a Heartless and insert him in Heartless bosses template and Heartless page--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.43.36|186.237.43.36]] 11:28, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the KH2 Ultimania refers to the Experiment, Scar, and Phantom Scar(s) as "Others" (anything that isn't Heartless or Nobody) in the enemy section. ''[[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]]'' '''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]''' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 06:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
::The game refering him as a Heartless in both pause menu and the Wisdom Form gain EXP from him, plus, the card game too refering him as a Heartless. And 3 > 1, so, why give importance to one proof that is out of the game instead of 3 proofs (bigger number) that 2 are in-game and 1 is out of the game? {{unsigned|‎186.237.43.36}}
:::The game calls him an artificial Heartless, the card game has other errors, and Wisdom Form EXP gain is a semi-hidden stat that focuses on mechanical effect rather than narrative role. Meanwhile, the ultimania section that labels it as "Other", as well as its placement in the Journal, demonstrates narrative role.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
::::Even Ansem, the Organization and others are in the character section, but because they are Heartless, Noboedies, ecc... that have the role of true characters, The Experiment is the same. Look like you are trying to say "but Ultimania said that", ok, but we have others 3 officials proofs that say he is an Heartless, that seems you prefer to ignoring and 3 > 1, the character section don't mean nothing, just mean he is a character and not just a boss, and this is true. And say "but the WF exp is a sami-hidden thing" too don't mean nothing, is there, Square do that. Why the Experiment give EXP and any other boss no-Heartless don't? How he is was created too don't mean nothing. Shadow Soras was created by Riku with a snap of his fingers, but they are Heartless, even if created in different way from others for exemple. Xion was created in a different way from the others Nobodies, but she is still a Nobody, so the creation way is not so much important to say "he is/not a Heartless/Nobody/ecc..." even the Spirit of the Magic Mirror was created with a potion, and is totally different from others Unversed--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.43.36|186.237.43.36]] 17:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::So, now I discovered that when The Experiment kill you, will be the same Game Over screen that appear ONLY if you are killed by a Heartless (with the floating heart). So... let's see all the proofs that say he is a Heartless:
*The pause menu during The Experiment's boss battle call him "Heartless".
*The TCG classify him as a Heartless.
*The Wisdom Form gain EXP from The Experiment if defeated with this Form (and the WF gain EXP ONLY if kill Heartless).
*When you are killed by The Experiment, in the Game Over screen will appear a floating heart (thing that happen ONLY if you are killed by a Heartless).

:::::This that say he is not a Heartless:
*Absolutly NOTHING, except the fact that he apprear in Character section of the Journal, thing that happen even with Ansem and Sora's Heartless, but nobody question that they are Heartless.
:::::I think the nature of this enemy is quite clear right now... and I really doubt Square make ALL this mistakes about him.--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.201|93.150.192.201]] 11:18, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
::::::I can't find a youtube clip of anyone dying to the experiment, so if you can provide that, then sure. That would be a good way to test the other people on the list too, since the game over and wisdom/final form are the only convincing methods.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:02, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I already done that part, and to be honest I don't see reason why I should do that since I'm not even a true user here, I just said what I discovered. If you don't belive me is just play that part and see if what I said is true--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.193.183|93.150.193.183]] 13:19, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
:That's cool, we can wait.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:54, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
::What? The wiki is your, not mine. The interest of give to the reader the most correct infos should be yours, not mine. I just give you some info of what I found, and even if I do the game again, how I can show to you about the EXP and the Game over? If I write here you don't belive me and apparently your are too lazy to see for yourself, I just give some information for try to help the wiki--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.193.183|93.150.193.183]] 15:52, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
:::Dude, not everyone has kh2 at hand to check this for themselves, and youtube doesn't show anyone losing to the experiment. All I asked for was proof of your claim (ex. taking a cellphone video of you dying to the experiment), the same requirements everyone else, even the mods, have to meet.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:33, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
::::Understand, well, I can't in really short time... but I will try, but in the meantime, I suggest to ask to others to check for it, like in forums or website ecc...--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.213|93.150.192.213]] 19:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

:::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMTz1O5aJs&feature=share 1:38:43]. Not sure what you saw on your copy, but it's definitely not a heartless. there's still the wisdom form thing which I think chaineh did confirm tho, so we can note that on page.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:10, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

::::So... I'm making lives for all KH games/movies in chronological order, and since I wanted to use Mickey vs Lord Blizzard and LOrd Volcano, I tryed to kill myself, and I noticed that even when Lord Volcano and Lord Blizzard kill you, the heart don't appear in the Game Over screen, this happened too when a Fat Bandit killed me. If you don't belive me, here the live I made (maybe Dark Stalker and Dark Thorn too have this, that when they kill you don't appear the heart... but I'm don't pay attention when I do that part).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/364024745

I will do too a live where I will kill The Experiment with Wisdom Form and I will show the Form EXP before ad after the battle to prove to you that he is a Heartless.--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.205|93.150.192.205]] 01:00, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I do the stream and I killed The Experiment with Wisdom Form, and it give to me EXP (71 -> 70) and here the video.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365790912
:Okay, so at 1:42:46, you have 89 wisdom experience, then at 1:54:54, after defeating the experiment and having no other combat, you have 90 wisdom experience. Checks out to me.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRlflEDTMcI Here’s a clip with the actual Wisdom level-up text in battle.] (This means the Ultimania is in error, which is…unusual - but my copy does have some weird oddities, like Phantom Jafar’s Thunder being listed as Physical). Unfortunately the same testing can’t be done with the other borderline case of Scar (since you can’t Drive in Pride Lands), so someone would need to delve into the coding for that. ''[[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]]'' '''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]''' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 22:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
:Scar (and Scar's Ghost) can be programmed as a regular enemy, to be sure if the Pride Lands exclusive enemies are programmed as Heartless, I suggest to see if Living Bones, Shaman, Aerial Knocker and/or Groundshaker too are programmed as Heartless (they can be found only in Pride Lands and Underworlds tournaments (exept for Groundshaker for Underworld), and so, impossible to give Wisdom Form EXP in regular game, so if the actual Pride Lands Heartless are programmed as Heartless in data files (and give EXP to Wisdom Form) that means Scar and Scar's Ghost too should give EXP if they are actual Heartless.
:Another enemy to test I think can be AntiForm, I heavly suppose is a Heartless, or maybe is something different and is a Replica and is considered a Nobody. If someone can test it will be really usefull--[[Special:Contributions/5.133.48.68|5.133.48.68]] 23:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@@ Line 32: / Line 32: @@
 :::::I think is not covered in Heartless section just because The Experiment in the second visit of HT is a true character, I mean, all the second visit is focused about The Experiment, others Heartless bosses you just defeat them and over there. I suspect the Scar's Ghost too is a Heartless, but since in Pride Lands I cannot use fusions, is impossible to verify without doubt... but for the Experiment, how we can see, there is 3 different proofs that indicate he is a Heartless, and the fact he appear in the character section in the journal, is just because he is in fact a true character in-game, with a role in the story, so I suggest to change the template to be a Heartless and insert him in Heartless bosses template and Heartless page--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.43.36|186.237.43.36]] 11:28, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 :For what it's worth, the KH2 Ultimania refers to the Experiment, Scar, and Phantom Scar(s) as "Others" (anything that isn't Heartless or Nobody) in the enemy section. ''[[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]]'' '''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]''' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 06:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
-::The game refering him as a Heartless in both pause menu and the Wisdom Form gain EXP from him, plus, the card game too refering him as a Heartless. And 3 > 1, so, why give importance to one proof that is out of the game instead of 3 proofs (bigger number) that 2 are in-game and 1 is out of the game? {{unsigned|186.237.43.36}}
+::The game refering him as a Heartless in both pause menu and the Wisdom Form gain EXP from him, plus, the card game too refering him as a Heartless. And 3 > 1, so, why give importance to one proof that is out of the game instead of 3 proofs (bigger number) that 2 are in-game and 1 is out of the game? {{unsigned|‎186.237.43.36}}
 :::The game calls him an artificial Heartless, the card game has other errors, and Wisdom Form EXP gain is a semi-hidden stat that focuses on mechanical effect rather than narrative role. Meanwhile, the ultimania section that labels it as "Other", as well as its placement in the Journal, demonstrates narrative role.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 ::::Even Ansem, the Organization and others are in the character section, but because they are Heartless, Noboedies, ecc... that have the role of true characters, The Experiment is the same. Look like you are trying to say "but Ultimania said that", ok, but we have others 3 officials proofs that say he is an Heartless, that seems you prefer to ignoring and 3 > 1, the character section don't mean nothing, just mean he is a character and not just a boss, and this is true. And say "but the WF exp is a sami-hidden thing" too don't mean nothing, is there, Square do that. Why the Experiment give EXP and any other boss no-Heartless don't? How he is was created too don't mean nothing. Shadow Soras was created by Riku with a snap of his fingers, but they are Heartless, even if created in different way from others for exemple. Xion was created in a different way from the others Nobodies, but she is still a Nobody, so the creation way is not so much important to say "he is/not a Heartless/Nobody/ecc..." even the Spirit of the Magic Mirror was created with a potion, and is totally different from others Unversed--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.43.36|186.237.43.36]] 17:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 :Scar (and Scar's Ghost) can be programmed as a regular enemy, to be sure if the Pride Lands exclusive enemies are programmed as Heartless, I suggest to see if Living Bones, Shaman, Aerial Knocker and/or Groundshaker too are programmed as Heartless (they can be found only in Pride Lands and Underworlds tournaments (exept for Groundshaker for Underworld), and so, impossible to give Wisdom Form EXP in regular game, so if the actual Pride Lands Heartless are programmed as Heartless in data files (and give EXP to Wisdom Form) that means Scar and Scar's Ghost too should give EXP if they are actual Heartless.
 :Another enemy to test I think can be AntiForm, I heavly suppose is a Heartless, or maybe is something different and is a Replica and is considered a Nobody. If someone can test it will be really usefull--[[Special:Contributions/5.133.48.68|5.133.48.68]] 23:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
-::Do you mean Shadow Roxas?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
-:::Nope, I mean AntiForm, the one summoned by Vexen Absent Silhouette and Vexen Data Replica, but... yhea, I think will be usefull make that for Shadow Roxas and maybe even Fake Vivi, but for this two, we must be sure if the Roxas exclusive enemies are programmed to be Nobodies, for this, I suggest first of all see if Axel is considered a Nobody for the game, if it is, this mean the other 2 too are considered Nobodies (or Heartless) if they really are Nobodies (or Heartless)--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.193.198|93.150.193.198]] 15:27, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
-- Hi, giving my two cents on the subject, I really think most proof regarding the Experiment being a Heartless is very circumstancial and prone to being a simple mistake. Given how many errors are to be found just in the games themselves I'd really leave the TGC out of this entirely, it is hardly a reliable source for this kind of "lore" stuff (it is not unlikely that the people in charge just sticked the Heartless label onto non-Disney bosses and called it a day).
-The "defeat the Heartless" pause screen and the WF exp point could very well be oversights, there are other cases where the pause screen info are proven to be copy-pasted and don't take some elements into account (sometimes even giving out wrong information, such as telling you to "eliminate all enemies" with the Rapid Thrusters in Land of Dragons even though it's straight up impossible and you just need to survive). Regarding the WF exp point, I can concede it might've been an intentional easter egg stuff to demonstrate the Experiment was at the very least without a heart, but I'd consider it more of a semi-joke than anything (kinda like when in some games you see a small enemy but if you scan it it says "Legendary Dragon" because it has horns or something). Anyway, it's a very metagame thing and programming errors can be made, especially since in KH II the Experiment is just one of many bosses.
-Meanwhile, the Ultimania's main job should be to set the record straight on these matters, so even if it's just one point I'd say it weighs more on the table. It's more likely that KH II, a game in which all sorts of elements and projects were in play, had some errors rather than the Ultimania, a more focused piece of work.
-For objectivity sake I'm not going to use the fact that the Journal doesn't put the Experiment as a Heartless since the Journal does mess up sometimes (again, when you make a big videogame this kind of stuff is bound to happen), but that also means I'm not going to consider it a proof that the Experiment IS a Heartless, too. It's kinda like the "this stone keeps tigers away for there are no tigers here." The Journal only proves that the Experiment not being categorized as a Heartless MIGHT not mean he isn't one, it doesn't prove it is one. The burden of proof should be on other evidence, but as I said the rest isn't solid proof either.
-I don't wanna just debunk stuff, though. Here's my piece: the Experiment clearly cannot be an artificial Heartless because it doesn't show a heart flying away when defeated. You could say "Well maybe it's a Pureblood" but here's the thing: Pureblood Heartless are either denizens of the Realm of Darkness or Darkness from people's hearts. ''From people's hearts.'' The Experiment (it's stated over and over in the cutscenes) didn't have a heart of its own and that's why it resorted to stealing presents. Without a heart, I don't see how any corruption of it could've started to begin with. You can be corrupted by the Darkness without a heart, like the Nobodies, but I think it's safe to say Nobodies can't produce Heartless as well. Regarding creatures with hearts being turned into Emblems and not Purebloods (the guy in Traverse Town, the soldiers and the dragon in Land of Dragons), that happens when the transformation is forced by external causes (other Heartless, Organization members etc.) and not from a heart inherently corrupted. And whenever there's a Heartless-related corruption of non-people mediums (the curse of the medallions, the big fruit in Deep Jungle, the Heartless Factory) it always spawns Emblem Heartless, therefore considered artificial. The Experiment has no heart and screams "artificial" from every pore of its being. Now, it could be that it's an artificial Heartless without needing a heart, truly an exceptional case, but... if it's so unique and in a category of its own, then it's basically like it's not a Heartless either. It's its own thing.
-So, instead of going back into all the variables of the game and such, a bit of Occam's Razor: wouldn't Sora and co. at least mention that it was a Heartless if it truly was? In KH II, they scream "Heartless!" as soon as they begin to even suspect of one (see Mushu's shadow, or Pete talking about Scar, or even just all the talk of turning Jafar and Santa into Heartless). Oh yeah, and might I also mention the Experiment doesn't use or have clearly visible Darkness elements whatsoever? No purple haze, no dark energy blass, no nothing. Even Scar had those, and it's oddly suspect the Experiment doesn't if he's a so-called Heartless.
-I had to wrap my head around all of this so I understand why the discussion even happened, but I mantain my stance that it's not a proper Heartless to speak of, and shouldn't be categorized as such when neither the game's Heartless section, nor the cutscenes, not the Ultimania say so. [[Special:Contributions/93.48.240.124|93.48.240.124]] 14:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC) DarkosOverlord