Editing Talk:Terra-Xehanort

{{archive box|
* [[Talk:Terra-Xehanort/Archive 1|Archive 1]] - October 04, 2011
}}
==Delete==
Good lord why do we have this page.Terra-Xehanort is the same character as [[Xehanort]].

...Have you even read both articles?  If so, I believe your opinion would change.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 21:34, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

I have read both articles.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:36, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

This page is unessecary.This info belongs on Xehanort's page.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:42, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Dude, compare the two.  There would be far too much content on just the Xehanort page.  Having two similar, but complete pages is better than having one excessivly large page.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 21:51, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

"Oh then in that case we should seperate info on Sora's page since the the info is obivioulsy huge on his page."--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:54, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Except that one can't be split into two.  What other character was Sora?  Listen:

#Terrnort and Xehanort are drastically different.  We can't have an article about someone who knew who he was and all of a sudden change that half way through.

#His role changes drastically in the story after his amnesia.

If you returned to the wiki just to cause arguments, please refrain from doing so.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 22:03, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

I returned to right some issues.Just because someone has amnesia does not mean they are entirley someone else.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 22:07, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

I wasn't saying he was two different people.  I meant he was changed EXTREMELY, ''almost'' like becoming someone else.  Your reasoning is like saying "delete Roxas, because he is just Sora with amnesia".  {{The Inexistentsig}} 22:08, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Roxas was clearly a different form of Sora.Terra-Xehanort was not a different form of Xehanort.When Xehanort changed it was just changes to his personality we can note this in the article we don't have to spereate it.Be professionals people.  {{unsigned|The Dark Master}}

Why?  Roxas didn't remember a thing from before.  Neither did Xehanort.  In all technicality then, why do we need a Xehanort article?  He is, ''after all'', just Terra and Master Xehanort.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 22:15, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Well that is because it has been established that the new incarnation of Xehanort is different from Terra and Master Xehanort well at least by you people.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 22:22, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Exactly.  We establish articles ''logically'' here.  We have devoted hours to the meticulous crafting of every article, template, and page on this wiki.  He have held discussions and forums and all manner of conversations to define different things.  BECAUSE of this, this page is basically a ''community'' decision.  If you want to try to change the community's opinion, bring it up on the TWTNW forums, not on a lonely talk page.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 22:26, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Fine I will bring it up on a forum.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 22:27, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

:Terra-Xehanort is a being who has Xehanort's heart and soul, Eraqus's heart, and Terra's heart and body. Xehanort is a being who has Terra's body, Xehanort's soul, but not any of the hearts, as those are sealed from it. As far as we can see, it is almost a different type of creature, similar to Maleficent and Dragon Maleficent. They are very, very similar, but are fundamentally different. It's not simple amnesia.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:24, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
::I'll just note that I was against this from the start, and I never once liked the name, "Terra-Xehanort". I was always content with leaving this info on the Xehanort page and still calling him "Xehanort" or "the new Xehanort", but when I was adding some things about him in BBS like saying he was a "Former Keyblade Master" and putting a picture of Xehanort in Terra's clothes in the infobox (because it was the most recent picture of Xehanort there was) it just kept getting reverted, I began to get fed up. And when KrytenKoro said to me that they were FUNDAMENTALLY different characters, I split the pages in two. To be honest and truthful, I never intended it to be a proper page, it was just to make a mockery of that "fundamentally different" thing, but somehow everyone took me seriously and this is the result. I can't change it back as easily as I split them. Personally, I still call this character "Xehanort". I'm 100% against the name "Terra-Xehanort", but I was the one who made this mess of a change, so I guess I have no say anymore. To everyone out there who's unhappy with this change: I am so sorry, truly. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 05:16, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

Well, to start, Terra/ Xehanort was never a Keyblade Master.  That could have started this entire thing.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 15:32, 28 April 2011 (EDT)
:That bit wasn't my fault. I innocently believed that since "Terra-Xehanort" carried two hearts, one of an apprentice on par with a Master and the other of a veteran Master, he WAS a Keyblade Master. It was somewhat like 2 + 2, but some people didn't understand so they kept reverting it. That was when KrytenKoro brought up the "fundamentally different" excuse, so I decided to show him what that really meant. As I said, I was just expecting them to revert it instinctively, but this one stayed. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 05:15, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

== Re:Merge with Xehanort ==

Greetings, everyone. Long time, I know, but I think I'd better get this to everyone's attention. The recent trailer of ''Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance'' has a scene at the end where Xehanort, in his apprentice clothing, summons Master Xehanort's Keyblade in front of Braig, who asks Xehanort if his memories have returned. Now, I'm not sure exactly if this scene takes place after Xehanort's revival or if it's a flashback to the time just before when Xehanort and the others became the Heartless and Organization XIII, but it's starting to be an indication that Xehanort and Terra-Xehanort are one and the same being. It's been on my mind for quite a while, but I sincerely think that a man with amnesia is NOT a different person than the same man with his memories intact. In all respect and fairness, I suggest we merge this page back with Xehanort and refrain from calling him "Terra-Xehanort" except for when it applies. If not immediately, then in the near future, because sooner or later, he's likely going to get the Keyblade back and we won't know where to put the new information. Xehanort and Terra-Xehanort are the same person, with different memories. That's what I think, at least. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 19:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
:That's all pretty vague. As your said yourself, we don't know when these scene plays, but that's critical as Kryten explained in his post. Also trailers weren't always the most reliable source in the past.--[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 20:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah, OK, we'll see what happens when the game comes out. I just didn't want this to go unnoticed. I'm still against this page even existing separately from the Xehanort page, though. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 22:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
:::SE specifically gave them different names, though. That's a big piece of evidence towards them being meant to be different beings. I mean, could the guy in the 3D trailer be Terra-Xehanort, but not Xehanort? Does he remember his time without his other memories? All that kinds of nonsense. It's also not just a guy with amnesia -- he sealed off his existing hearts and memories, allowing a new persona to form.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:51, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
::::It just seems sort of strange that this is applied here but not in the case of when Vanitas fuses with Ventus and becomes Ventus-Vanitas. The only page about Ventus-Vanitas is the boss page, there's no normal page about him anywhere, even though he has more or less the same screentime as Terra-Xehanort. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 16:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
::I believe that's because, as you said, there's not a whole lot to say about him. Also, I ''am'' trying to merge the character and enemy templates (hopefully I will have time to finish it eventually), so we will be able to merge a few character and boss articles that are short enough on their own. Basically, don't worry about Ventus-Vanitas, we should just have [[Ventus-Vanitas]] and nothing else.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
:::That's my point exactly. Here's an example from the DCAU Wiki. In an episode of ''Batman: The Animated Series'', Bruce Wayne briefly goes undercover as a man called Gaff Morgan, with a fake beard and hair dyed white, and he ends up with amnesia, thus with no idea whatsoever that he is Batman or any memory of his parents' death. But the Wiki has no page about Gaff Morgan just because he was Bruce Wayne with an entirely different persona. It just lists the Gaff Morgan persona as one of Batman's aliases. That's my argument about Terra-Xehanort. I think that as of now, he hasn't got enough screen time to warrant a page of his own, just like Ventus-Vanitas. My opinion is that we should just merge the two pages back together, but state at one point that he was previously known as "Terra-Xehanort" before he lost his memories. Xehanort and Terra-Xehanort are basically the same person (it even says it on TX's page), so they should have the same article. True, SE gave them different names, so that's why I think we should merge the pages and refer to Xehanort as "Terra-Xehanort" wherever it applies. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 10:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
::If that's the case, I'd much rather have the Terra-Xehanort article be the main name—it's more accurate to what the gestalt is, and distinguishes it more clearly from Master Xehanort, who is often just called Xehanort.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
:::I don't believe this. What a weird kind of villain we have here, with a handful of names and identities LOL. OK, whatever, as long as the two Xehanort pages become one. Who knows? Maybe we'll end up merging Master Xehanort, Xehanort ''and'' Terra-Xehanort into one page: Xehanort. Because all three of those are forms of Xehanort himself, unlike Ansem and Xemnas, who are a Heartless and a Nobody. For the time being, let's try our best to merge these two pages as best as we can, then we'll see if we can make some changes about the Master Xehanort article, like changing it to just "Xehanort", since he's the original, pure form of Xehanort and apparently the true villain of the Xehanort Saga, since he's the one who started it all. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 14:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Just curious, is the guidebook the only source we have on Terra-Xehanort's name, or does the Ultimania call him Terra-Xehanort as well? {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 17:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
:The end credits of BBS refer to him as Terra-Xehanort, but I think it was only done to differentiate him from Master Xehanort. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 19:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

== Voting for the merge. ==

OK, OK, OK EVERYONE!! I THINK IT'S TIME WE STOPPED WITH THE PLEASANTRIES AND JUST VOTED WHETHER OR NOT TO MERGE THIS PAGE BACK WITH THE XEHANORT PAGE!!! And excuse the capital letters because it was the only way to get everyone's attention :).
:'''Merge''' with [[Xehanort]] (and on a side note, the page will be called "Xehanort", I only put the tag on the Xehanort page because the Terra-Xehanort page is locked). 
#They're essentially the same person but with different memories. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 10:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
#Too similar imo--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 20:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
#ABSO-F***ING-LUTELY MERGE. Getting amnesia does not make you a new person, or even persona.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 22:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
#Basically what everyone said. Terra-Xehanort is another Persona though (his angrier, I-will-rule-the-world persona. His amnesia persona is more like "for science!" type), so we may need to split Xehanort's personality section. {{User:17master/Sign}} 14:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
#This seems like the best idea of all of them.{{User:As if!/Autosig}} 17:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
#Makes more sense to me... I suppose... {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Signature}}
:'''Do not merge'''. 
:'''Merge''' into [[Terra-Xehanort]]
#Per reasons stated above. Merging it into [[Xehanort]] will just exacerbate the confusion we already have, and make it more difficult to distinguish links from one target to the other. Terra-Xehanort is a more accurate name anyway, along the lines of Ventus-Vanitas and Riku-Ansem.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
#This sounds like a better idea. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 19:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
#Indeed.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 23:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
#If we have to merge before KH3D comes out, at least merge it chronologically. Memories work differently in KH, simple amnesia just doesn't cut it. --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 12:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC) 
#Oh what the hell, if we're gonna change then let's change to the right thing, he had three different names as this is the first name and the only one to be used before the amnesia it should be considered the right one. {{User:Xabryn/Sig}} 00:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
#Meh. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 14:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Can we stop this for a second? I really think that this should wait until 3D is released it might give us more information over Xehanort's persona, I mean can you imagine the mess that it is gonna cause if we merge the pages and 3D shows us that the two are actually different personas? {{User:Xabryn/Sig}} 11:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:It won't make that much of a mess. There's hardly anything on this page anyway. If we merge the two pages and DDD shows that they're different (which I sincerely doubt, since amnesia hardly leads to two different personas), we'll do something about it. I split them once, I'll do it again. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 12:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
::If you're going to split them anyways, then keep them split anyways. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 12:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::No one said I was going to split them again anyway. These two pages should have stayed as one in the first place. It was my mistake to split them at all. That's why I'm trying my best to rectify it, since not everyone on the wiki is happy with it. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 12:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:@GB I would agree that merging it into Terra-Xehanort would make sense, except he later takes up the name "Xehanort", making it more of an "Ansem, SoD" deal--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 14:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
::But the thing is, he's never referred to once as "Terra-Xehanort", save for the end credits of BBS, which I think was to differentiate him from Master Xehanort. Since he's best known to fans as "Xehanort", I think it's best to merge them into Xehanort but call him "Terra-Xehanort" whenever it applies. It never once created confusion when the articles were one, and the "Master Xehanort" clearly says that he is the "original incarnation" of Xehanort, so there won't be any reason for fans to get mixed up. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 17:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::This wiki doesn't name pages based on what the subjects are known as in the fandom, look at Lingering Will and Vanitas Remnant. He's called Xehanort in the KH2 Journal and Terra-Xehanort in BBS, so we have two sources for the name. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 17:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
::Speaking as someone who had to clean up a lot of misplaced links, it clearly caused plenty of confusion. Furthermore, Master Xehanort is called simply Xehanort several times in Birth by Sleep. His name of "Xehanort" in KHII and at the end of Birth by Sleep is explicitly due to confusion--at the one point that he knows what he actually is, he is called "Terra-Xehanort" by the game and guide. And again, the name is absolutely more accurate in describing who and what he is--a fusion of Terra and Xehanort's hearts and souls within Terra's body.
::In regards to the parallel to Ansem, SoD: That would apply if BbS hadn't clarified that the thing is called "Terra-Xehanort". If KH3D readdresses this by calling the gestalt "Xehanort", then we move the page back to Xehanort. However, our available info tells us that "Terra-Xehanort" is the current and most accurate name for the beast, and if it comes down to a choice between the two, Terra-Xehanort is ''much'' easier to use on the wiki.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:43, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::Saying it comes to that (though it doesn't seem likely since most are voting for the merge with Xehanort), then I think maybe "Xehanort" should be a disambiguation page. Like, "'''''Xehanort''' is the main antagonist of the Xehanort Saga, but appears in various forms, such as the following: Master Xehanort, Terra-Xehanort, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, and Xemnas.''? [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 18:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I still prefer "Xehanort", since that's all anyone's been calling him in KHII and the ending of KHBBS (and it would seem also in the trailer for KH3D), but I can see how it would make sense to put it under "Terra-Xehanort", too. That would be my next choice. Basically, the important thing for me is '''that there be a merge'''.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 19:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
::::That sounds golden. To be fair to who's voting for what, though, you did add that clarification after those votes had been placed. Those voters should check to make sure that they want their votes counted as such.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::::Yes, I know. I had made my point several times that I thought the entire thing should be called "Xehanort", but I decided to put the clarification in case anyone got mixed up. But then again, if any of those guys want the page to be called "Terra-Xehanort", they can always change their votes. But as Nuemannz said, he's been called "Xehanort" mostly, and that's the name most fans are used to. And that thing about the Lingering Sentiment/Will part is a bit different, because the "Lingering Sentiment" was a direct Japanese translation, almost fanmade, but we changed it to "Will" because of the "Will's Cage" we found in the hacking, and thus slightly more reliable. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 21:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
::::::''Shinen'', in its most basic form, means "thoughts". "Thoughts" has a closer meaning to "Will" than "Sentiment". But I'm getting off track. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 21:30, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Really? I always thought that "Thoughts" was closer to "Sentiments" and "Feelings", stuff like that. "Will" sounds more like a determination, a willingness to get something done, more than just a sentiment. I always liked "Lingering Sentiment" better than "Lingering Will", but I guess it's because I was more used to the first one. But still, let's try and stick to the Xehanort page thing. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 21:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
ANYWAY, EVERYONE!!! WE'VE GOT OURSELVES A FEW VOTES!! HOW LONG SHALL WE KEEP THE VOTE GOING UNTIL WE MAKE A DECISION!?!?!?!? And again, excuse the capitals. Just for attention :). [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 21:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:Well let's see, it started around 5:00 yesterday (in my timezone at least) so I think to be fair we should end it at that time tomorrow, at least I think that's fair, anyone else got an idea?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 01:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
::That'll be around 10:30 tomorrow morning in my timezone, I think. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 08:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:::Sounds good, anyone else? Objections? Alternative suggestions?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 11:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
::::I guess we just ought to wait and see if any more people vote. By the way, just in case the merge with Xehanort wins, we should unprotect the Terra-Xehanort page soon. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 12:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Anyone else feel we've waited long enough?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 01:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
:It's already gone 10:30 my timezone, and the merge with Xehanort won. I think it's time we merged the pages now. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 09:35, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
COME ON EVERYONE!! THE MERGE WITH XEHANORT WON THE VOTE!! TIME TO UNPROTECT THE TERRA-XEHANORT PAGE AND MERGE IT WITH THE XEHANORT PAGE!!!! (Just to get everyone's attention again XD) [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 13:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
::Like I said earlier, you specified that "to Xehanort" thing after almost all of those votes had already been cast. You need to get each of those guys to confirm that that's what they meant to vote for.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
:::Sorry, Kryten. I didn't see your post until ''after'' I did that. Well at least we have a draft of what the page will look like if we have to merge them. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 15:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Just saying, I stand by my vote. We should merge Terra-Xehanort to Xehanort. {{User:17master/Sign}} 15:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
:Ditto @EJ well look at the bright side, if it wins then all we'll have to do is undo the undo, if not, well then we just copy whatever changes you made onto the Terra-Xehanort page.--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 18:16, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah, that's the beauty of it. But how long should we keep this up? I mean, it's been a few days since I made the whole thing clear and no one seems to have changed their mind except "As if!", who thought my suggestion was best. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 21:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
WE'RE INTO OCTOBER NOW AND THE ONLY CHANGE IS NOW A TIE BETWEEN MERGING INTO XEHANORT AND MERGING INTO TERRA-XEHANORT!!!! WHAT DO WE DO NOW EVERYONE!?!?!?!? [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 08:21, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
:Sudden death?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 14:20, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
::DAMNIT! *sigh* alright people, we're already in october, and there is a clear winner, can we close the voting now?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 15:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
:::Oh, and yes, I confirm that is what I meant to vote for. --{{User:As if!/Autosig}} 16:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
::::....sooo, all the needed to be done was to ping those people and confirm their votes, but...it looks like that's not necessary anymore. Well, go ahead and merge then.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::I'd be more than glad to do it, but since the merge into '''Terra-Xehanort''' won the vote, we'll need to unprotect that page before any merging can be done. Any help please? [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 20:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::jeebus cripes and we're back into a tie--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 20:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
::The vote already finished, Terra-Xehanort won, and Neumannz unlocked the page so that they could be merged. Just finish it as it was.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
:::How typical. I merge the pages and it gets back into a frigging tie. Oh well, what's done is done. Hope you like it. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 12:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

== report ==

Where is Xehanorts report from Kingdom Hearts II? Lost by merging? Should be added. [[User:Sum2k3|Sum2k3]] 08:53, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:Xehanort doesn't have a report in ''Kingdom Hearts II''...it only has the [[Secret Ansem Reports]]. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 15:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
::Thats strange, in PAL version is a report about Xehanort (Ansems student). [[User:Sum2k3|Sum2k3]] 16:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:::If you mean, the reports written by Terra-Xehanort, those are all of them in ''KH1'' except the first, according to Ansem the Wise. If you mean the reports ''about'' Xehanort, that's pretty much all of them in KHII. If you mean the reports written by ''Master Xehanort'', that's all of them in KHBbS.
:::In either case, I don't think we should add the text of the report to this page. Each of them already have their own articles to cover them. However, if you're suggesting that we should cover "the information about Xehanort revealed by the Reports", then yes, absolutely we should do that and have storylinks linking to the reports.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
::::No, I mean a journal entry. If you go to jiminys journal -> characters -> the first (must be named others) ..it's right above Xemnas journal entrys (in his black coat named "Organization XIII" followed by "Xemnas"). [[User:Sum2k3|Sum2k3]] 20:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::Ah. It should be added to the infobox.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 09:50, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

== The Return of Xehanort ==

{{EO|time=21:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)|thinking=As many may recall from a certain battle on a certain main page, I stated I was never a fan of making "Terra-Xehanort" the dominant article over "Xehanort." I hate to be difficult, but I would like to push for either separating the articles again, or at least making "Xehanort" the dominant article. I try (and most likely fail) to explain my reasoning below:

*If we're doing it here, why not merge "Terra" with "Lingering Will" (who really ''should'' still be called "Lingering Sentiment") or vice versa? They ''are'', after all, the same entity (same case as with Terra/Xehanort/Terra-Xehanort, which brings up the question of why we didn't merge "Terra-Xehanort" with "Terra," or "Xehanort" with "Terra"...). However, we count them as separate.
**If related characters or characters who are essentially the same being are having their articles merged together, then why aren't we merging all the Xehanort incarnations into "Master Xehanort"? Why aren't we merging "Xemnas" and "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" (who really ''should'' still be called "Xehanort's Heartless") with this article, since they both originated from ''this'' Xehanort (and not Terra-Xehanort)...?
**It's my personal opinion that, unless obviously the better choice (such as when an Unknown is identified, etc.), the same policy for enemy articles should apply to the character articles, where we stick with the original name. What I mean is we did not change the name of "Rabid Dog" to "Bad Dog" with the release of ''358/2 Days'', even though they are the same Heartless and ''358/2 Days'' is more current than ''Kingdom Hearts II''...   
*Xehanort is not ''once'' referred to as "Terra-Xehanort" in ''Birth by Sleep'', save for in the credits. We should be using the names used in the reports and cutscenes rather than those used in the credits, since they are the ones actually intended to be canon. The credits are merely credits, with next to no basis for naming.
**Terra-Xehanort has no Journal entry in ''BBS''. Xehanort has his own entry in ''Kingdom Hearts II''.
**In the "Timeline" section of the Trinity Archives, both the "Keyblade Graveyard" and "Final Episode" sub-sections contain information relevant to Terra-Xehanort. The name is ''never'' used. The only ones that pop up are "Terra," "Master Xehanort," and "'''Xehanort'''."

This information all seems to support making "Xehanort" dominant over "Terra-Xehanort," assuming we wish to keep the articles merged. Now if we were to try justifying separating them again...

*For the same reasons (whatever they may be) why we keep "Terra" and "Lingering Will" separate...
*The incarnation of Master Xehanort known as "Terra-Xehanort" is born when Master Xehanort's heart invades Terra's body. He is able to wield Master Xehanort's Keyblade and even spawn the Guardian, but he favors Terra's battle style and techniques. The hearts of Master Xehanort and Terra battle within him for complete control. Terra-Xehanort essentially perishes when he extracts Terra's heart from within himself and accidentally seals Master Xehanort's heart in the process, resulting in amnesia and no memory of how to wield the Keyblade or use his other powers.
*When Terra-Xehanort extracts Terra's heart from within himself and accidentally seals Master Xehanort's heart in the process, resulting in amnesia and no memory of how to wield the Keyblade or use his other powers, he essentially becomes a new entity and new incarnation of Master Xehanort, "Xehanort." While his body is still essentially Terra's, Master Xehanort's heart is in complete control. Xehanort becomes Ansem the Wise's best apprentice, begins the experiments that threaten the worlds, and eventually perishes when he becomes a Heartless, "Ansem," and Nobody, "Xemnas."
*Terra-Xehanort is only seen once in the entire series, ''Birth by Sleep''. Xehanort is seen not only in ''Birth by Sleep'', but also in ''Kingdom Hearts II''. "Xehanort" is also the name that is used to refer to the character throughout the series, not "Terra-Xehanort," which only appears in the credits of ''Birth by Sleep'', guidebooks, and unofficial media, none of which are relevant to the canonicity of the story. Again, I mention how only "Xehanort" has a journal entry.
*Xehanort is not ''once'' fought in the entire series. Terra-Xehanort is. Placing battle-relevant sections on an article presumed to be about a character to which none of them apply is quite confusing/misleading, for lack of a better term.
**If we're going to go through with this, we may as well add information on Nightmare Armor Ventus to Sora's article...
<small><small>I also wish to point out how when we first did the voting for the merge, we wound up with a tie, and nothing was ever done about it.</small></small>

In short, the "Xehanort" character from ''Kingdom Hearts II'' is only relevant to ''Kingdom Hearts II'', just as "Terra-Xehanort" is relevant only to ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep''. For the reasons stated above (despite my lack of ability with words and to defend myself), it is my strong belief that the articles should either be separated once again or changed so "Xehanort" is the dominant article.}}

{{Asif|shosad=Well...
#We had a vote. We waited until the voting subsided, at which point on October 1st the decision was made to merge the information into Terra-Xehanort. At that point you had voted to not merge the pages. However, [http://www.khwiki.net/index.php?title=Talk:Terra-Xehanort&diff=next&oldid=520996 two days later], you changed your vote- after the decision had already been made. I am sorry, but since everyone voted and no one had any objections to closing the vote at the time, the decision was made. It was too late at that point for anyone to change their mind- if any of us had changed our vote, it would have still been counted where it initially was.
#The last time we had this argument, it devolved into us just stating our individual opinions with no one actually making any progress in changing anyone's mind. I know that you might feel strongly about changing the name, but I do not feel that it would be beneficial for us to open debate about it at this time.

I am sorry, and I hope you understand.}}
{{EO|time=01:34, 26 April 2012 (UTC)|annoyed=Of course I understand, but...
*First of all, realize I only posted this because I didn't wish to be reprimanded for making a drastic change without anyone else's consent. That's just standard Wiki-protocol.
*Realize, from what I've observed, that late last year was when the Wiki first separated from Wikia, and we were in the process of becoming independent. All of the community's focus was on removing our ties to Wikia and maing this site what it is today. The Wiki was quite dead back then and received little daily activity (I, personally, was severely inactive), thus this was no grounds to have a debate of any kind. When only five people or so are doing the arguing (or at least putting forward the arguments people will listen to) and all of them are in agreement, it's as good as arguing with yourself, and there should be no question in your head as to why the debate devolved. My strong lack of activity prevented me from paying full attention to this subject back when it was contemporary, thus I quickly popped in and voted to keep the articles separate; I was in no position to write some long-winded argument like I am now. I was not following this talk page closely, so there was no way I could know it was past time to vote when I changed my mind (especially when it came more as a "No one's responded, so let's just do it" than "Only one more day of voting, guys") and went with my first alternative of merging all content into "Xehanort" when I realized my first choice stood no chance. The Wiki has made a decision I disagree with, and I'm simply stating my reasons now why I think it was the wrong one, in hopes that it can be corrected or we can at least reach a better consensus now that we actually have a decent-sized community on our hands. What had happened in the past should not get in the way of this.
*As stated above, trying to have a debate when no one is truly interested in debating is poor grounds to have one in the first place. Yes, we're being bombarded with ''KH3D'' information, but now that we don't have something as sizeable as separation from our host site to deal with anymore and people are generally more active, we can focus all our energy on subjects such as these. Just because something's been "settled" in the past, there's nothing wrong with reviving a discussion or trying again to see if results are any different.   

While it may have been the Wiki's consensus a while back to merge the two articles into "Terra-Xehanort," only an idiot would say it is still the right decision after all the reasons to support the contrary I posted above. Also, I checked the Keyhole just for ha-has, and they've kept "Xehanort" and "Terra-Xehanort" separate. Honestly, they handle this very well (an article of decent size, referring to Xehanort as "his amnesiac counterpart" in the Youmay template, etc.), and for consistency's sake between this site and its sister site, I see no reason why we can't follow their example this one time.  

No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it.}}
{{KrytenKoro|"Will" is from the official translation for "shinen" used in the Japanese game to refer to the area that the armor creates: "Will's Cage". "Sentiment" also infers that the creature is the mere whisp of a thought of Terra, as if it was nothing more than the Flood are. As clarified by Nomura, it is Terra's full mind within the armor. "Sentiment" may be a more immediate result of searching in a dictionary, but it does not fit the context or other given translations.

"Terra" and "Lingering Will" are not merged because they are fundamentally different beings. It is Terra's mind in his armor; Terra's body and heart are with the apprentice, making him "more Terra" and even then still fundamentally different.

The questions about Xemnas and Ansem are patently ludicrous. Not only are they not simply pieces of Master Xehanort, but they are active at the same time as different beings.

Suggesting that Ansem, SoD should be called "Xehanort's Heartless" is similarly ludicrous. Not only has Nomura ''consistently'' used the Ansem SoD name, from KH onward, but he even uses it when referring to the Riku-Ansem hybrid. The creature is ONLY called Xehanort's Heartless in a few scenes of KHII, and it is quite frankly a terrible name for our uses ("Xehanort's Heartless is the Heartless of Xehanort that appears...").

The "first name" policy is pretty sound, although there is an issue in this case that I will explain in a bit. As for the Days enemies: the translations in that game are pretty unfaithful, with stuff like the "Surveillance" having its name changed from "Surveillance Robot" to "Watcher". We could obviously have a discussion about if we want to use the revised names given in the newer games (we do this for items, for example), but if we go at it on a case-by-case basis instead of a blanket policy, I would argue that the Days names are inferior. '''But again, it's a policy we use elsewhere, and it's not a big problem if we decide to abide by it.'''

The guides also refer to him as "Terra-Xehanort". Furthermore, and this is the biggest issue: [[Master Xehanort]] is ''also'' frequently called "Xehanort", even in 3D or other games where they have to account for both the apprentice and true forms. This is a good parallel to Ansem, Seeker of Darkness vs. Ansem the Wise: despite both characters frequently being called simply "Ansem", we use the full titles to clearly differentiate the characters. This, I believe, is the main use of calling the character "Terra-Xehanort" despite him frequently being called simply "Xehanort" - the title of the page, and what that means for links to its name, immediately dispels any confusion about who it is. I honestly do not see much way to avert this. While I would prefer "Xehanort" as the title, like you, I simply don't see any reasonable way to use that title without making a mess of anything. '''If you have some suggestions for an article title besides "Xehanort", then ''those'' would be worth addressing. A title of ''just "Xehanort"'' will make a mess of linking and be confusing to readers.'''

I'm pretty sure you're incorrect about the hybrid removing Terra's heart. We see them later arguing deep within the hybrid's heart, and we do not see a heart being released.

As for merging the hybrid form that fought Aqua with the one that acted as an apprentice, I was against it, and I can see us splitting them into "Terra-Xehanort" and "Apprentice Xehanort". However, the consensus rationale was that these two beings were physically the same thing, with only amnesia affecting them...much like Sora in CoM. Still, you're begging the question by talking about us only seeing "Terra-Xehanort" in one game and "Xehanort" in several.

"Nightmare Armor Ventus": Since this is Sora simply manifesting Ventus's armor, the merge is reasonable.

We do not have debates for the sake of debates. When we find a problem, we discuss solutions for it.

If we resplit the articles (which would conflict with precedent on Sora, Roxas, and the myriad of other characters who've forgotten things), what would the Terra-Xehanort-specific article even cover? We no longer cover strategy info on the same pages.

In summary: I strongly believe that naming the article "Xehanort" is completely unworkable and will only serve to confuse readers. There is also strong precedent for not splitting the pages. ''However'', if we want to discuss alternate names for the page ''besides'' "Xehanort", that would be totally workable.

Also, we should discuss whether we want to rename articles like Surveillance Robot or Rabid Dog based on later localizations.}}
{{EO|time=20:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)|hooded=Kryten, there was no need for you to take everything I posted so seriously. 3/4 of it was rhetorical and simply there to show my thought process behind the points I was trying to make. The main thing I was trying to get at through all the nonsense was that there's too much information that's blatantly obvious supporting the fact that moving "Xehanort" to "Terra-Xehanort" was the wrong thing for us to do.
 
Why not call the article "Xehanort (Apprentice)"? While it should be obvious to anyone who follows the series which Xehanort we're talking about when, that at least makes the article's subject more specific, and it's definitely ten times better than "Apprentice Xehanort". Terra-Xehanort's story section can remain on the page to show the apprentice's origins, since they are at the very least connected that way ("Template:Main" should be used to link to a Terra-Xehanort article handled the same way as Ventus-Vanitas), but other than that, everything else on the article should be relevant to the apprentice, and only the apprentice (basically anything about him from ''KHII'', where he has the most prominence).

'''EDIT (20:25, 6 May 2012 (UTC) :''' I was searching for scans of the ''KH3D'' Ultimania, and I found a translated interview with Nomura that states something rather intriguing:

''Q: Speaking of Terra, at the beginning of the game, Braig seems to think that his amnesia was never true. What can we make of this?''

''A: Well, that’s right. Xehanort never truly lost his memories. He was only pretending. After all, it would be very convenient if he had amnesia but happened to remember the name of “Xehanort.” His manipulation of the apprentices of Ansem the Wise was always deliberate, and so he can be the focus of the rage of Ansem in future titles.''

Despite this, I still hate using "Terra-Xehanort" as the article title and would like to push for my earlier suggestion of retitling this article "Xehanort (Apprentice)" and creating a "Terra-Xehanort" article like "Ventus-Vanitas". Isn't there some way for the information of this article to be reworked to support this new, official material AND my suggestion?}}

:@ENX that ultimania "interview" was a joke created by gamefaqs user KMAnsem. Check in pare 3, 4 post down, and he'll confess it to be just a joke.--{{User:Dark-EnigmaXIII/Sig}} 22:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
{{KrytenKoro|Something like "Xehanort (Apprentice)" or a similar concept ("Xehanort (Terra)", etc.) should be fine for discussion. As long as it won't create a clusterf--- of disambigs and confused links, you guys can go ahead and shake it out.}}
{{EO|time=04:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)|text=My apologies for the mix-up in terms of that "Ultimania interview", guys.

Now that it's been given the green light, I'd like to push for retitling this article "Xehanort (Apprentice)" and creating a "Terra-Xehanort" article in the same style as "Ventus-Vanitas".}}
{{Maggosh|flint=I would like to move to keep Terra-Xehanort on the grounds that he is indefinitely not Xehanort in his purest form. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=19:31, 8 May 2012 (UTC)|talktext=Seems we have a discussion going on here...Alrighty then,

Xehanort (Apprentice) sounds better to me from where Terra-Xehanort really only works for BBS. The Terra-Xehanort title is really short lived: once Ansem the Wise finds Terra-Xehanort he asks what Terra-Xehanort's name is. Terra-Xehanort responds: Xehanort. Okay. The guides may mention Terra-Xehanort, that's fine. They should. What else would they call the end of the game '''boss'''? The cutscenes [story] thus far didn't reveal what happened to the possessed Terra- meaning, no name identification.

Next the article moves on to between KH and BBS, and beyound that to KHII/coded. This is where Xehanort [the apprentice] makes sense. 

I think a decent compromise is the following: Keep a Terra-Xehanort page- similar to what we did with [[Ventus-Vanitas]]. Then link to a Xehanort (Apprentice) page to follow the story after Ansem the Wise discovered Terra-Xehanort.

I can see both sides arguments. Or at least I think I do...My thoughts on that:

'''For those wanting to keep Terra-Xehanort''': Terra-Xehanort is a momentary name. It is still a legit name as evidenced in the guides. Terra-Xehanort makes sense because it is a temporary name, but one given to the same person. Terra-Xehanort gives himself amnesia, tells Ansem the Wise he is Xehanort. Boom! Still same person, just known differently from the guides. Now that Terra-Xehanort is referring to himself as Xehanort, this leads into the story between KH and BBS, KHII, coded, and more. In short: ''Terra-Xehanort works because it is still the same person, just going by a different name.'' </insert "Different name, same fate" quote> As for Terra-Xehanort not being Xehanort in any form. Well, you're right. Terra-Xehanort isn't completely Master Xehanort, or Terra. It was a combined existence of the two, with Master Xehanort apparently being the most dominate. This combined existance [Terra-Xehanort] later had amnesia and became known as "Xehanort." Not Master. Not Terra. Just Xehanort...who happened to be an apprentice.

My biggest problem with Terra-Xehanort is that the name Terra-Xehanort really only works for BBS. After BBS he is no longer Terra-Xehanort, but Xehanort, the apprentice. 

This brings forth the biggest question for this article: '''what purpose is this article serving?''' At first this sounds stupid, but think about it. What are we doing with this article? 

*If we are saying "Hey! When Master Xehanort possessed Terra the combined existence created the name Terra-Xehanort. Terra-Xehanort was around a bit longer, fought with Aqua, and later gave himself amnesia by accidentally sealing both Terra and Xehanort's hearts away. End story." If that is our goal, leave a Terra-Xehanort page and create an additional Xehanort (Apprentice) page to carry on Xehanort's story.

*If we are saying "Master Xehanort possessed Terra. Both of their hearts in one body created the name Terra-Xehanort. Terra-Xehanort went to Radiant Garden, fought Aqua, and gave himself amnesia trying to seal away the other's heart. Having amnesia, Terra-Xehanort couldn't remember anything so he said his name was Xehanort. He was known as Xehanort, was referred to as Xehanort, and lived as Xehanort. Proceed on to KHII, coded, and the other storylines." Then keep this page, with clearly defining exactly who he was referred to as at each critical point.

Sorry for the wall of text, guys.}}
@@ Line 226: / Line 226: @@
 Sorry for the wall of text, guys.}}
-== Locked? ==
-Why exactly has this page been locked? It might say somewhere in the discussions above, I don't know. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] 14:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
-:[http://www.khwiki.net/index.php?title=Terra-Xehanort&action=history Edit warring]--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 15:05, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
-== Not-Ansem ==
-Where is the source for this? The cite we have doesn't include the phrase, so I'm just super confused. Is it in the Japanese script?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-::Didn't this come from one of Donald's lines, specifically: "It's the guy who's NOT Ansem…"? - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 01:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-:::Yeah but that's not actually calling him the Not-Ansem. It's calling him the guy who isn't Ansem, just with a different contraction. How'd that even get on the page? [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 02:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-::::We do have kana for it, somehow, so I feel like it might have come from the Japanese script.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:31, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
-== Ansem the Wise ==
-It's unclear how much Ansem was complicit with the research. His Secret Ansem Report's portray a timeline that conflicts with the flashback we see with Mickey -- in the reports, he doesn't find out about the Heartless, the door, and the theory that the energy behind the door is the world's heart until Mickey encourages him to question Xehanort, while in the flashback he actually discusses each of these with Mickey, unprompted, and doesn't appear to believe yet that Xehanort has betrayed him. This may simply be inconsistent writing on Nomura's part, though.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
-:It's entirely possible that the Secret Ansem Reports were written to intentionally make Ansem the Wise appear more sympathetic. He tried to portray his experiments on Xehanort's heart as simply "psychological analysis", but it's possible he went even further. Plus he created the entirety of the lab beneath Radiant Garden which would be weird if he weren't in on everything. He probably tried to stop his apprentices in response to the human experimentation they did, and for throwing Kairi into the sea between worlds. [[User:Konu|Konu]] ([[User talk:Konu|talk]]) 19:57, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
-== My name is not Xehanort ==
-Interesting bit that may need to have the current write-up reconsidered, from khinfoblock:
-Anonymous asked: From Mod S: "Plus, in the Japanese versions of the game, Terra-Xehanort uses the pronoun '-watashi'. That’s how MX spoke, while Terra would use '-ore'." So who's talking when Apprentice Xehanort stabs Braig in 3D?
-When Braig calls him Xehanort, he responds with “ore.” “Ore no nawa – Zeanooto dewanai.” / “My name is – not Xehanort.”
-But when he calls himself Ansem, he uses a different pronoun: “wa.” “Waga nawa – Ansemu.” / “My name is – Ansem.” But I don’t think that means anything, since Ansem himself uses “watashi,” and everybody seems to use “wa” at points anyway, so it’s probably just a common phrase and not a personalized pronoun or anything.{{unsigned|KrytenKoro}}
-==  *If a cutscene camera mod is used in ''Kingdom Hearts 3D'', Xehanort's head is revealed to be shrunken from the rest of his model. ==
-Isn't that just a requirement for having the camera "see" from his point of view? I'd expect to see removed heads on any scene where we "see" through a character's eyes.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:15, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
-== As a Member of Real Organization XIII ==
-Wasn't the Terra-Xehanort from the Real Organization XIII in both 3D and 3 from the present and not the past? I thought that, with Ansem and Xemnas' defeat, both Terra and Master Xehanort were brought back, but Xehanort put a piece of his heart in Terra to keep him as Terra-Xehanort. This is why when Terra is freed from his grasp in 3 that he does not return ot the past. [[User:Diamonddeath|Diamonddeath]] ([[User talk:Diamonddeath|talk]]) 16:46, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
-:Well, yes and no. Terra-Xehanort's body is from the present, but the heart Xehanort put inside it is Terra-Xehanort's heart from the past. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 16:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)