Editing Talk:Symbols in the Kingdom Hearts series

==Should==
Should it be "of" or "in"?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
:Also, would it perhaps be more legible if the "additional character" and "additional world" symbols were handled in a table?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
::I can't answer the first question, I just used the title suggestion you made some hours ago^^. A table has its pros but it would ruin or at least supersede the text. How would you arrange the table? --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 21:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
:::I personally find "in" has better sound appeal, but both technically work. I would say yes to the table, but if it supersedes the text as Shard stated, then by all means, leave the page as-is. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Signature}}
{{KrytenKoro|Basically, the "additional world" and "additional character" sections just list a lot of images and then have unconnected sentences after them detailing each of the images. There's no cohesion between the images or the text, and they're only real relation is that they are each symbols with no real variants or notability. I'm proposing a short table that separates each image and line of text into a row of the table, for those symbols only.}}
I would suggest making it a transparent table, no lines and no background.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 15:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
:The table looks good, now to do it for the characters.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 10:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

==Mark of Mastery==
{{ST|text=Where is it said that those symbols represent the Mark of Mastery, especially since Terra and Ventus where it despite not being masters, and Aqua wore hers long before her promotion, not to mention Xehanort not wearing one, despite being a master}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=22:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)|talk=With the latest Normua interview regarding the story of KH3D I assumed that there is always a qualification test before the Mark of Mastery exam which is rewarded with the mark. But that may not be true. It was "Keyblade Master Symbol" before, which is also incorrect in Terra's and Ventus's case. The [http://heartstation.org/gallery/albums/birth-by-sleep/ultimania/bbsu%20024.png Ultimania] calls it [http://forums.khinsider.com/handheld-entries/147019-20-kh-mysteries-solved-sort.html Terra's mark] which can't be the real name either.}}
{{ST|text=I always saw it as Eraqus' symbol seeing as only he and his apprentices are ever seen with it, as well as it being the keychain token on his keyblade, not to mention the fact that Ventus didn't start wearing it until he started being taught by Eraqus}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=20:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)|talk=True but I think there is still more too it. Why did Xemnas copy the symbol to get the Nobody emblem and why is the Room of Sleep decorated with it? Anyway, I still think you're right. Maybe we should change the name to "Terra's mark" (because we have a quote for it), "Eraqus' symbol" is plausible but still another speculation.}}

== Heartless emblem ==

Okay, chronologically the emblem first appears on the x-blade, and kind of on Vanitas's chest; unless it appears on Hollow Bastion in BbS (can someone check, please). We know that the Organization emblem is from Terra's memories of the Mark of Mastery emblem, so without speculation we can at the very least say that the Heartless emblem is derived from the x-blade Keychain.

Also, I think Roxas's Nobody-thorn cross should be part of the Nobody emblem section, since those thorns are used throughout the various Nobodies and Organization weapons.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I really don't think a black heart with a red outline makes it a heartless emblem. It's got the color-scheme, sure, but that's about it, same goes for vanitas--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 14:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
:The x-blade Keychain is the "Heartless emblem" without the surrounding thorns and the bottom fleur-de-lis. It's pretty clearly a linked symbol, and chronologically, it appears long before the Heartless emblem.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you're right Kryten the heart in the keychain is an "incomplete" Heartless emblem but it is highly doubtful that the heartless emblem is based on it considering that neither Master Xehanort nor Terra even got the chance to see it as it was destroyed a short while after its creation {{User:Xabryn/Sig}}

== Unknown symbol ==

[[User:Unknown3619|Unknown3619]] 15:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC) Would anyone be so kind as to put the symbol that the Unknown in BBS uses in here some where. i cant do that kind of thing myself but i would love to study the symbol for more clues to his/her identity. Thanks

:What symbol is that?  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 16:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

[[User:Unknown3619|Unknown3619]] 16:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC) sorry. Its the one that appers below him/her when he/her uses magic. Its black and looks like a trinity limit symbol.
:Here you go:<br>
:[[File:Young Xehanort's Spell Circle KHBBS.png]]<br>
:I ripped it from the battle effects and even tried to put his ethereal blade together, but that's a lot of work, because the parts are disconnected in the game files. Please link back here if you publish it somewhere else, thanks. --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 00:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

[[User:Unknown3619|Unknown3619]] 15:10, 6 January 2012 (UTC) This is amazing. thanks so much. I cant even say how cool this is. Thanks.
::Are we gonna add this to the page?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 07:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

==The Grid==
{{Uxie|time=12:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)|text=While an Identity Disk ''does'' serve as the symbol for The Grid, the shape is slightly different than the one for Space Paranoids. The shape is similar to the disks in the second film.}}

== Move ==

{{EO|time=15:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)|text=I'm mostly suggesting this due to better sound appeal, but is anyone against moving this article to "Symbols '''in''' the Kingdom Hearts series"?}}
:No, go for it. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 15:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
::Either way works for me... they essentially mean the same thing. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 15:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
:::Not especially. I think I'll wait for a few more opinions. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 15:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm fine with it.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 00:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
:That's also okay with me. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 11:32, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Me and my Grammer professer say that '''in''' is better [[User:Unknown3619|Unknown3619]] ([[User talk:Unknown3619|talk]]) 20:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
::Can I say it? "Grammer?"{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
SAY IT  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 03:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

<nowiki>*</nowiki>Grammar. Moment stolen, Kryten :P And "in" is slightly more appropriate. Both work, but "in" is a bit better.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}14:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Woops.. I didnt notice that... Kind of defeats what I was saying huh? Anyway, as long as no one absolutely hates that idea (I cant see anyone hateing it really) then its ok. [[User:Unknown3619|Unknown3619]] ([[User talk:Unknown3619|talk]]) 15:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

== Needed? ==

Do we really need that "Eye of darkness" thing? It seems a bit much for what it's been used for. But that's just my opinion. [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 13:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
:It's a recurring motif (more than some of the other symbols here) with consistent meaning, and its simpler than listing out each of the ten or so blades it appears on each time we mention it.[[Special:Contributions/107.35.212.105|107.35.212.105]] 18:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
:Point taken. But I feel that it's a bit of a nuisance, mostly because it's a bit speculative(though normaly that's something I'm all for). But the question still stands: Is it needed? [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 21:24, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
::Yes. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 21:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
OK. I'm still against the idea, but I'm not gonna put up a fight, unless someone insults me for whatever reason(which I really hate). [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 21:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
:The KH2 Ultimania uses a major and a minor symbol for each main character, these symbols are not shown here for various reasons. Anyway, besides the blank Heartless symbol a similiar eye is used for Riku, so maybe that makes it a bit less speculative. http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy230/ShardofTruth/Other%20KH%20stuff/RikuSymbolsmall.png <br>Although I agree this page scraps speculative territory on more than one occasion, mainly because we mostly use fan given names. That's why it should be considered as a collection with real-world references not as something written from an ingame view. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}}
OK, I'm not against it anymore. I do wish it had a better name though, the current one is a bit iffy. Not that I'm complaining or anything, just saying. [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 22:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
:It's an eye, and it is associated with darkness. We specifically do not claim that it has an official name. I don't see how anything in that section could be considered speculative.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I meant that the name is a bit simple and isn't going to catch on(at least for me). Hence why I said that I wish it had a better name. Now no more talk about this, I have more important things that require my attention [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 14:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander

== Nobody variant and Roxas's symbol ==

Should we merge those two sections?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:44, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

If so, I think Roxas's zipper pull should take priority. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 05:22, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

This is kind of strange. I don't think the Gummi enemies have anything to do with Roxas, on the other hand Roxas's zipper pull is inspired by the Nobody symbol, so maybe we have overlapping designs here. Would it really make any sense if these two were the same? --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 21:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

{{OpenTalk}}

== Hidden Mickeys ==

Gamer Escape: Is there anything you're excited for or something you’d like to share with our readers?

Okayama: There are actually hidden Mickeys in the stages that you can look for.

Gamer Escape: Like the shape?

Okayama: Yes, it might be very difficult to find them but they are in there. They’re not in every stage though.

Read more: http://kh13.com/#ixzz477oNqYED
:You can find seven of them in Waterfront Park --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 14:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

== It just hit me! ==

About the Eye of darkness, the reason it's on Master Xehanort's Keyblade and the Keychains of the Foreteller Keyblades is because it's the Master of Masters' eye. The one that can see into the future. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 00:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
:Possibly, but has that been stated for certain yet?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
::No, it's only a thoery. The fact I said that it "hit me" kind of implies that. I don't expect or even want my thoery on the page yet until it's confirmed though. I just wanted to put it out there before anyone else figured it out first. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 17:26, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I..am a genius. Not that that's anything new. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 03:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
:Yeah, good prediction!{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:37, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
::Now, how about a prediction for a KH3 release date, eh? {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 03:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
:::Late 2017. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

== Why are we still calling the Master's eye the "Gazing Eye"? ==

I mean...he made it pretty clear that his eye (or keyblade for that matter) doesn't actually have a name.  The term was something just made up on the spot by Luxu and immediately dismissed by the Master.  So....wouldn't it better to just call it the Master's Eye or something?  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 00:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
:I didn't interpret that line as talking about the eye, especially since the way Luxu phrased it pretty strongly implied that the MoM had just said the words "Gazing Eye". Regardless, whether it is the ritualistically "true" heart-name for the concept in-universe, it is still a name the canon uses for the concept, and thus weighted in privilege to anything we come up with ourselves. "Master's Eye" itself would imply that ''that'' name is canon, which would be erring in the wrong direction. "Master's eye", maybe, but then we're talking about the eye itself and not the symbol I would think. But I can go with "'Master's eye' icon", sure. It's an accurate if non-canon descriptor, like "entelechy".
::I would ''love'' for Nomura to come up with official terms for those concepts, though -- the unnamed Keyblades, the symbols, if there's a name for a complete being, etc.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:09, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
:::They call it Gazing Eye in Back Cover. There's even a scene called "The Gazing Eye" where they talk about the MoM's ability to look in the future with the eye (it's not the Keyblade scene). {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 08:23, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
::::But that's a ''chapter name'' though.  Not the official name for the thing.  I mean...the Master outright says "That's not what it's called..."  If that isn't a fucking confirmation, then I don't know what is.  This really needs to be changed.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 15:27, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::That is indeed a "fucking confirmation" that the Keyblade, because they're talking about the Keyblade in that scene, isn't called Gazing Eye. However, in another scene, called "The Gazing Eye", they mention that the Master has "an eye that gazes into the future". While not totally confirming that is called the Gazing Eye, it is quite obvious, considering the scene's title. Maybe you should actually watch Back Cover before coming here saying something isn't right. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:21, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::Then you don't know what a confirmation is. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
::::::Maybe we should agree on a zero profanity rule. {{User:Byzantinefire/Sig}} 17:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::::''Shut up.''{{unsigned|Ignis}}
:::::::You already have my vote. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::To clarify: the Master explicitly states "Gazing Eye" is not the name of the No Name. However, the scene clearly portrays the Master as having immediately beforehand saying the words "Gazing Eye" -- Luxu did not make them up himself. Given the context, the term "Gazing Eye" which the script presents as having been a term used by the Master almost certainly applies to his actual eye. If nothing else, it's a usable identifier for the item, just like "Terra's Mark" or "Young Xehanort's Keyblade".{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
::::::I dunno...that's a speculative stretch though based on the ''assumption'' of information we were never given.  Luxu called it then, but then jumped up in shock and shouted "EW!" when he found it was his dismembered eye!  If he knew what it was to begin with, he wouldn't have had that reaction.  And besides lol, weren't you in agreement over this a while back?  If you and the others agree that you want to keep it as is, that's your prerogative.  I just strongly disagree and feel it's correct that it be changed.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 21:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Luxu could have thought that it was a jewel made to look like an eye, which is what '''we all''' thought before Back Cover. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::::To clarify again: Luxu plainly ''didn't'' know the MoM was talking about the eye -- he thought the MoM was talking about the Keyblade.
::::::::Here's what we're shown:
*MoM talks about "Gazing Eye"
*Luxu thinks he means the Keyblade
*MoM clarifies that the Keyblade has no name
*Luxu names the Keyblade
*MoM further clarifies the Keyblade contains his own eye
::::::::This order of events indicates that the MoM was indeed waxing poetic about his own eye, and Luxu just got confused, then was corrected.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

== Merging ==

Would there be any complaints about merging Roxas's zipper pull into the Nobody section, or perhaps creating a subheading for it? The Nobody variant symbol and the zipper pull are essentially the same, and as Roxas is a Nobody, there is certainly connection there. I saw that there was discussion about it before but it doesn't seem like anything came of it.

Also, should the fleur-de-lis in the world symbols section be moved up to the larger fleur-de-lis section? [[User:Sirlionel13|Sirlionel13]] ([[User talk:Sirlionel13|talk]]) 18:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

== Regarding Terra's Mark as of KH3, and Xion's symbol ==

Per the notice on the page, I looked into the gummi stickers in KH3, and it seems that the symbol this page calls "Terra's Mark" is instead titled "Eraqus" in KH3. But, this page also says that the name "Terra's Mark" is used in official materials. This means we now have conflicting information from official sources - what do we call this symbol now? Calling it something like "Eraqus' Mark" seems more appropriate to how the symbol is used, in my opinion.

On another note regarding KH3, Xion appears to have a symbol now - a 3-pronged mask/crown, which can be seen on the top of her light pillars during her KH3 data battle. This symbol is also visible on the face of her final form in Days. Does anyone have a clean image of this symbol? And, what should we call it? --[[User:Boblers|Boblers]] ([[User talk:Boblers|talk]]) 09:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
:The original source of it being called テラたちのマーク (Terra and Friends' Mark) is the BBS Ultimania. They compare it to the Nobody symbol to show the similarities, so it could be seen as more of a description than a name, like "the mark Terra and his friends use". Also, since KH3 calls it "Eraqus", and is more recent, we should call it that, but we should probably mention "Terra's Mark" as well (though I'm not sure it's actually called that in English?). {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 13:38, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
::If I remember correctly, the only Ultimania that's in English is the Memorial Ultimania, so BBS Ultimania is still only in Japanese. I don't know what's in Memorial, but unless the mark is mentioned in there, "Terra's Mark" would not have an English name I think? --[[User:Boblers|Boblers]] ([[User talk:Boblers|talk]]) 22:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
:This is irrelevant for now but since it goes back to the beginnings of keyblade society, neither is probably its "proper name"; they may give it a real one in Missing Link or something. [[User:ChielArael|ChielArael]] ([[User talk:ChielArael|talk]]) 08:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

== Nobody emblem contradiction ==

So, it's been established that the Nobody emblem is based on Terra's Mark / Eraqus as remembered by Xemnas, since Terra had strong memories of the symbol. But it appears on [[:File:Keyblade Armor (Xehanort) KHDR.png|Xehanort's Keyblade Armor]] that he wore over 60 years prior. I think this is a minor oversight, rather than intentional lore: the most likely explanation is that they included the emblem on Xemnas's armored form because he's a Nobody, but when it came time to make Xehanort's armor for ''Dark Road'', they used the same design as that armor (and No Heart) without considering the implications of the symbol. Still, an interesting little contradiction. —[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 04:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
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	So, it's been established that the Nobody emblem is based on Terra's Mark / Eraqus as remembered by Xemnas, since Terra had strong memories of the symbol. But it appears on [[:File:Keyblade Armor (Xehanort) KHDR.png\|Xehanort's Keyblade Armor]] that he wore over 60 years prior. I think this is a minor oversight, rather than intentional lore: the most likely explanation is that they included the emblem on Xemnas's armored form because he's a Nobody, but when it came time to make Xehanort's armor for ''Dark Road'', they used the same design as that armor (and No Heart) without considering the implications of the symbol. Still, an interesting little contradiction. —[[User:Aid1043\|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043\|talk]]) 04:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)		So, it's been established that the Nobody emblem is based on Terra's Mark / Eraqus as remembered by Xemnas, since Terra had strong memories of the symbol. But it appears on [[:File:Keyblade Armor (Xehanort) KHDR.png\|Xehanort's Keyblade Armor]] that he wore over 60 years prior. I think this is a minor oversight, rather than intentional lore: the most likely explanation is that they included the emblem on Xemnas's armored form because he's a Nobody, but when it came time to make Xehanort's armor for ''Dark Road'', they used the same design as that armor (and No Heart) without considering the implications of the symbol. Still, an interesting little contradiction. —[[User:Aid1043\|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043\|talk]]) 04:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
	:I don't think it's Dark Road's oversight, considering that No Heart (as well as Eraqus' armor) were included in the Final Mix of the very same game that Nomura made this claim in the Ultimania of. Considering that they don't use armor in the present day and that both armor designs were used in Dark Road, I suspect they were always supposed to represent Xehanort and Eraqus when they were younger. It's a case of Nomura proving his own statements wrong almost immediately. It wouldn't be the first time; Nomura also said nobodies don't age, despite Namine clearly aging from CoM to II (others were shown to age later). Personally I think we can infer it must predate Xemnas, but who knows if they'll ever talk about it or not. [[User:ChielArael\|ChielArael]] ([[User talk:ChielArael\|talk]]) 08:03, 3 November 2022 (UTC)