Editing Talk:Sora's Heartless

Don't we already have [[Shadow Form]]?[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 06:52, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thats form this is a character. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 07:04, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:But [[Shadow Form]] is specifically about Sora as a Shadow Heartless. This page seems to be saying that that same being is the final boss of coded, which would suggest a merge.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 07:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Form talks about how you got to play as Sora's Heartless but this one deals with biography. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 07:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:Excuse me for butting in and all, but Shadow Form is Sora as a Heartless. This is Sora's Heartless. They seem to be the same character. I don't really like the idea of having one page for the form and one for the character, not only is it somewhat redundant in my opinion, but neither page acknowledges the other one. Unrelated, but would the brief playability of Shadow Sora count Sora's Heartless as a playable character?--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 11:51, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sora's Heartless appear as a main atoginast the source of Bug BLock and he's a boss in coded. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 18:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:Okay, let me put it this way. If the boss of coded is in fact Sora's own Heartless, then the pages ''will'' be merged, and [[Sora's Heartless (Boss)]] probably will too.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 19:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Instead of Shadow Form maybe Sora's Heartless is a playable Character like Sora, Riku, and etc. He can be first played in the first game. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 20:07, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:...that IS Shadow Form. That's exactly what Shadow Form is.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 20:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

So put all of the information of Shadow Form in Sora's Heartless? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 20:19, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

So when are you going to put all of Shadow Form's info in Sora's Heartless? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:22, January 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Isn't better to merge it with the Sora's Heartless boss page instead of shadow form, at least for now.[[User:Masgrande|Masgrande]] 22:28, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

:If I recall, we have separate pages for bosses. (For example, no one suggests merging Xemnas with Xemnas (Boss)) Shadow Form, on the other hand, is the Heartless form of Sora, which has been retroactively made a separate character. Merging the main page with the boss page would be inconsistent with other pages (aside from Lingering Sediment), while not merging with Shadow Form would lead us with having two pages on the exact same thing, which is pretty redundant I'd say.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 00:54, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

== Merging ==

I heard there will be a discussion about Shadow Form merging into Sora's Heartless article but I didn't see anyone debating about it. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:56, January 16, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

How do you merge an article anyway? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:33, January 16, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


== Question about the quote ==

When did Soras heartless say that?I thought heartless didnt talk. [[User:Kaialone14|Kaialone14]] 17:13, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

he say that in KH coded--[[User:Xabryn|Xabryn]] 18:23, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

Wheres Shadow Form's Trvia section? I thought mergeing means put all the trivia info in Sora's Heartless trvia? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 02:28, January 26, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:The trivia was already incorporated into the Story section.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 10:16, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

== Playable Character ==

Sora's Heartless is like a temporary playable character in KHI not a form. Since he is a minor character in KHI and a major antagonist in coded. So Sora's Heartless count as a playable character. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:02, January 27, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

== Character ==

He is a character in KHI like Xehanort's Heartless. I mean we all know that Lingering Sentiment is Terra but with his soul but they are still diffrent. Sora's Heartless had Sora's Heart but covered with darkness. Its the same logic with Lingering Sentiment and Sora's Heartless. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11  

Beside at that time in KHI when Sora created and become Sora's Heartless he was falling into darkness and Sora's Heartless took control until Kairi bring Sora back. Sora even commented to Kairi that when he falls into darkness he lost feeling, forget everything and etc. So this proves Sora's Heartless took control when Sora falls into darkness. So this proves that Sora's Heartless is a real character. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:...
:'''This makes him not a Shadow ''how'''''—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 20:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

== Sora's Heartless and Sora ==

Sora's Heartless and Sora are totally diffrent character. Kairi filled Sora's Heartless with light and the real Sora returned. Sora's Heartless just remained in Sora's Heart. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:28, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:...but you play as the Heartless. It's clearly still you, and Axel later mentions that Sora is one of the only beings who retained human form as a Heartless. Sora is canonically a Heartless from Hollow Bastion to Twilight Town.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 01:37, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

You know what I don't get it. Why is Sora a pseudo Heartless I 'm sure Nomura didn't mention Sora as a pesdo Heartless? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:45, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Coccocrash11
::Kryten, I'm fairly sure Axel simply says that he retained his memories as a Heartless. I could be wrong though. And Cococrash, I always have an unnecessarily difficult time deciphering what you say. Hint.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 04:19, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
All I'm saying is that Sora and Sora's Heartless are diffrent character to each other simple as that. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:01, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

<blockquote>
Axel: There was a time he became a Heartless. And if one becomes a Heartless---

Larxene: They lose their minds and their feelings... They're consumed by the
darkness.

Axel: Right. But not Sora. He held on to his feelings, even as a Heartless.
And there's only one other man who's been able to do just that.
</blockquote>

Okay, Axel doesn't say the human form bit.

*Secret Ansem Report: Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless. 
*Secret Ansem Report: Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.

However, it does seem clear that Sora neither regained his body, or Kairi's body - some weird light thing happened, and while he has human form, he is still in essence a being of the heart only. I would say that "pseudo-Heartless" would describe that pretty well. However, there probably is some source somewhere that explains what exactly Nomura calls this thing, so if someone finds that, we need to rewrite the page again.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 05:35, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Look in coded it is revealed that he's a character even in KHI so please its a character not a form. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:16, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
::It is a ''Heartless form of Sora''.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 07:51, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Look how about makeing it he's a character in KHI and coded. But a form for Sora throughout KHI to KHII. I mean the real Sora's Heartless appeared in KHI and coded. But Sora at that time is a pseudo Heartless from KHI to KHII. So lets mention he's a character and a form for Sora at the same time. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 23:49, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
::I have absolutely no idea what you just said.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 05:12, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying don't change "'''Sora's Heartless''' is the Heartless of Sora" --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:37, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

:We have to, circular definitions are not allowed. It doesn't explain anything. It's just like saying ''"A brain surgeon is a surgeon of the brain"'' - unless people do know, for example, what a surgeon is, and what a brain is, it's not going to explain anything. Similar case with this. We have to restructure the first sentence. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 07:33, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why the heck Xehanort's Heartless is an exception? Also its not just a frickin form its also a character and form. Sora's Heartless appear in KHI as a Shadow as a character and coded as a main antagonist. And your so called form appeared in KHI when Kairi bring Sora back to KHII. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 21:25, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

'''Sora's Heartless''' is the Heartless of Sora. This sentence isn't wrong it shows that Sora's Heartless's orginal form is Sora. I mean in Xehanort's Heartless, Xemnas to Saix. Roxas, and Naimine had "Name is the "creature" of Orginal being. Theres nothing wrong with it. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 21:42, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:On the contrary, Cococrash. "Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora" is very wrong and redundant. Common knowledge will show you that with the two words "Sora" and "Heartless", you can safely assume that the article is about Sora's Heartless. 

Also, about the whole "Name is the "creature" of Original being" is correct. Your talking about two different people, not forms. Plus that sentence isn't redundant. From the point of a reader/new user reading an article, a sentence saying "Roxas is the Nobody of Sora." explains alot (even if they haven't played the series). The sentence "Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora." On the other hand does explain that the article of Sora's Heartless, but is very redundant and pointless. The user could figure what the article was about just by using the words "Sora's Heartless."--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 22:32, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Does that applies to Xehanort's Heartless too? Also then why do you decided to change "Xehanort's Heartless is the Heartless of Xehanort"? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 22:56, February 11, 2010 (UTC) Cococrash11

I don't understand; I've read [[Xehanort's Heartless|his]] article and have yet to find the sentence "Xehanort's Heartless is the Heartless of Xehanort."--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 23:01, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

:@Xion:That's because it was recently changed.--'''''[[User:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Random!</span>]][[User talk:Randomnessity|<span style="color:darkblue;">to a point!</span>]]''''' 23:04, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it has been changed, and it should stay that way. Anything with circular definitions for opening sentences needs to be changed. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 00:49, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

== Character and Form ==

Look Sora's Heartless is a character in KHI because he appeared as a Shadow Heartless and he's not just a form he's also a character. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:04, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Then what makes Lingering Sentiment so special? He's a character but not Sora's Heartless? I mean he's a discarded Armor. Also he can be a Pesuo Heartless form in KHI to KHII? He can be a form and a character at the same time. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:13, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

:The whole point about not making a character page is that there is too little to write about him as a character. If we do create the page, it'll only mean speculation. We know that in essence, it's Terra, so it should go on the Terra page for now. When we get more details with the English release, we'll see about it. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 01:32, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Did you even read about Sora's Heartless as a form and a character? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:54, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:No, you made it too damn hard to decipher.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 02:09, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Come on its not even that hard look at this Beside at that time in KHI when Sora created and become Sora's Heartless he was falling into darkness and Sora's Heartless took control until Kairi bring Sora back. Sora even commented to Kairi that when he falls into darkness he lost feeling, forget everything and etc. So this proves Sora's Heartless took control when Sora falls into darkness. So Sora's Heartless is a real character. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 02:18, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

That doesn't mean Sora was 100% gone. He obviously wasn't swallowed completely by his following comment "You saved me...'''the darkness almost swallowed me'''...but then I heard a voice- your voice, you brought me back. Sora's Heartless is not a character but a branch off of Sora.--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 02:49, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

What about Xehanort's Heartless? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 03:09, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:Xehanort's Heartless has been swallowed, as you can see from the appearance, the Heartless symbol and the amber eyes. Yet, he maintained his willpower. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 03:17, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

So has Sora's Heartless he kept his feeling and will power. Beside what about Data Sora's Heartless he's a data version and the real version appeared in KHI as a Shadow Heartless. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 04:51, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:Data Sora's Heartless is Sora's Heartless reproduced. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 05:11, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

He is a character in KHI like Xehanort's Heartless. I mean we all know that Lingering Sentiment is Terra but with his soul but they are still diffrent. Sora's Heartless had Sora's Heart but covered with darkness. Its the same logic with Lingering Sentiment and Sora's Heartless. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:36, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

I agree with Coccrash on this one. If Sora's Heartless is such a major character in ''coded'', then I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be counted as a character (albeit a minor one) in KHI.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 06:19, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
::Except that the game makes it explicitly clear that Sora's Heartless ''is the Shadow you are playing as'', and is ''continuous'' with the Sora you play in later games. There is no magical switcheroo, excluding the fact that Roxas was spirited away - Sora becomes a Shadow, the Shadow tracks down Kairi, Kairi gives the shadow back its original appearance. Xehanort's Heartless is, as far as we know, different, in that there is no clear continuity shown between Xehanort and Xehanort's Heartless, though it ''is'' possible that it has the same continuity (However, that's speculation). What we ''do explicitly know'' is that there is clearly shown continuity for Sora's Heartless, and that it is '''not''' a "minor character", it IS THE PLAYER CHARACTER.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 11:58, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
:I agree with Kryten. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 12:15, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

You get to play as a Shadow Heartless it shows that you are playing as a diffrent character like Lingering Sentiment. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 23:20, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
::But the thing is that you are shown transforming back into Sora, with nothing added but light, and the canon seems to support this. And at a technical level, a Heartless ''is'' a form of its original being.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 00:20, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

No when Sora's Heartless was filled with light he dissapeared and Sora returned. He's a character in coded why isn't he a character in KH1? Beside he's just like Roxas he was complete when Kairi give him light and he become whole to become Sora and Sora's Heartless just dissapeared. Also @Xion4ever Sora was about 50% gone Sora is falling to the darkness and Sora's Heartless control for a time. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 02:13, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:'''No, no, a thousand times no.''' Just because you play as the Shadow doesn't make Shadow Heartless Sora a different character altogether. He's Sora ''almost'' falling into dark tendencies, just as you and Xion say. 50% gone does not mean totally gone. Think : would you have said the same thing if you were playing the Shadow Sora of KH1 ? <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 02:16, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, yes, and a thousand time yes I would think like that. What about in Terra's story when suddenly you play Lingering Sentiment instead of Terra? Its the same concept with Sora's Heartless and LS --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 03:39, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

You know what I will still debate that he's a minor character not a form in KHI. But what if Nomura said Sora's Heartless is a minor character in KHI what would you said? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 03:39, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:I would still say he is a branch of Sora. So he's Sora's Heartless. But be careful what you think : did Nomura ever explicitly state that Sora's Heartless is a minor character ? <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 04:05, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

First, lets be careful about our responses. We can express our opinions without bashing others. (just saying before something bad results).

About the whole 50% was Sora, 50% was Sora's Heartless. Thats a pitiful defense. Sora still had control over himself (evidenced in quote I listed earlier), but had taken on a new form. He was still Sora, just in the form of a Heartless.
Nomura has not declared Sora's Heartless a separate character. If you believe he has, then we need acurate, trustworthy proof! Also I love how after finding defeat in one standpoint you decide to create a new problem. -_-
Anyways, Sora's Heartless is just a branch of Sora. I won't waste time saying all these reasons to a headstrong user. But seriously, look at the facts.--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 04:19, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I said a frickin if!! Even if its a branch you can still call it a character just look at the nobdies Doesn't Xehanort's Heartless count as a branch of Xehanort. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:44, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
:Xehanort has completely lost his heart to the darkness, you know that. Come on, admit it. Sora was almost lost. Had he been totally lost, then you could make the same distinction for Xemnas and company. But you know Sora wasn't lost to the darkness. So stop beating round the bush. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 05:59, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Cococrash brought this up on my talkpage as well. I agree it is a form.--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 06:29, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
:Form only, but not minor character. Like Kryten said, it's a branch of Sora. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 06:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

So, this disussion it over?--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 17:53, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I'm gonna touch on this subject again, this time I'm talking to Cococrash. Judging by your comments on both here and BebopKate's talkpages you obviously didn't understand my previous comment about words. Attempting to belittle others and such will get you nowhere, it will later result in a warning for mis-wiki conduct. Be nice, okay?

Also continuing this discussion is pointless. Theres at least five plus users here who say that Sora's Heartless is a '''form''' of Sora and doesn't deserve a separate article. Arguing this matter more will result the same way.--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 18:11, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


In my opinion...this whole thing is getting dangerously close to edit-war territory.  And frankly, after getting a good night's sleep and re-reading through all the comments, I frankly still don't understand all of the arguments.  Cococrash, I think you're making too much of the whole transformation issue, and you seem to think all of the characters have to follow the same rules, storywise.  Sora has proven time and again to be one of the characters who has proven to be an exception to many rules, particularly because of his status as a main character.  I would consider his Heartless state as a form, since Sora has many states of existance.  I also have to ask at this point, do we have any official translations of ''coded'' to rely on the term "character" versus "form?"

I will be keeping a watch on this page and the article and there had better be some resolution to this ''very'' soon.  Because if not, there will be pages locked and warnings handed out. {{User:BebopKate/Sig}} 18:49, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

BOM BOM BBBOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!! Sorry, I really couldn't resist that one ^_^ 18:01, February 14, 2010 (UTC) [[User:ZexionTheGamer|Zexion]][[User Talk:ZexionTheGamer|The]][[User:ZexionTheGamer|Gamer]]
:Count on me for drumbeats, Zexion. Or explosions. :P

:Meanwhile, thanks, guys, now that this issue is settled. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 01:45, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

== Can We Clear This Up? ==

{{Saiyoku|time=06:09, February 15, 2010 (UTC)|riku=When you say Shadow Form, do you mean AntiForm? Or are we actually talking about a different subject?}}
{{LapisScarab|time=06:12, February 15, 2010 (UTC)|text=We had a page titled "Shadow Form" for when Sora actually transformed into a Shadow and you could briefly control him. It was seperate from AntiForm.}}


AAll right, let me gather everything to end this pointless circling debate once and for all. I believe, athat having considered this extensively, I can possibly shed new light on the subject. (The only time I ever played KH was a demo in 2004 in EPCOT. Thus, speculation and clarity is about all that I can provide.)

Statement 1- Sora released his heart, and was transformed into a heartless. At this point, Roxas and Namine are created. Sora is reduced to the form of a shadow heartless due to a lack of darkness, and begins to lose his conciousness to darkness.

Statement 2- Kairi restores Sora to his human form. He does not rejoin with Roxas, and thus should be considered as a full blooded heartless. He remains this way until the end of the seven days in Twilight Town, and thus can be considered to be a heartless for the duration of Chain of Memories and 358/2 days.

Statement 3- In Kingdom hearts coded, the entity of Sora's Heartless, a personality of Sora enshrouded and possesed by darkness, is one of the chief manipulators of events.

Note- (since I'm not sure as of yet how relevant this is) Vanitas, an entity of raw negative emotions, darkness personified, and an aspect of Ventus (whose heart Sora holds) has the appearance of Sora, albiet with gold eyes (the same shade of those whose hearts are tainted by darkness) and black hair (the colour black is associated with darkness.)
� 

From this, we can determine that Sora (who never went by anything other than his name) is a heartless, or at the very least, the dominant personality. Other entities that share the collective identity of "Sora" are Roxas, his nobody, and Sora's Heartless, his personality as it would be if it were consumed by darkness.

It isn't a question of Forms or Characters, it more a case of alternate personalities. [[User:Dragonraptyr|Dragonraptyr]] 02:40, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
</blockquote>

:Having said thus, Sora's Heartless should be left as it is. {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 02:42, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. But for everyone who argues, just consider this: What about reading an article about Multiple Personality syndrome, and applying it to Sora's situation (taking magic into account.) [[User:Dragonraptyr|Dragonraptyr]] 02:54, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

:The whole thing that blew it all out of proportion was the fact that there are pages for Master Xehanort, Terra, Xehanort, Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas. And all of them are treated as separate characters. {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 02:57, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

I won't press thing about whether Sora's Heartless as is a character or a form. I still think he's a character. But the part about Sora being a Heartless throughout KHI to KHII doesn't make sense. I mean he regained his body by having Kairi's light. In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVhAr5AVZ8g in 1:55 Aqua give some of her light inside Kairi. Maybe that light restored Sora to have a body in KHI to KHII. I think that make sense but the creator didn't even comment about it. So maybe we should wait for the BBS Ultima maybe it will explain things. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 03:06, March 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

:True, we should wait for BBS' Ultimania. But wait ; I thought it should've been out a month after BBS' release ? o.O {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 03:21, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

@cococrash- the thing about personalities is that they can be either or. that's why I consider Sora's heartless to be a personality. Sora isn't any less Sora, he just has alternate personalities, alternate personas, of a sort. Roxas is an aspect of Sora, but he's his own character. Smae of Xion, and Sora's Heartless. thogh, to be fair, I consider Sora's heartless to have appeared only in Coded. No matter what, Sora became a heartless, and ceased to be one when Roxas merged with him. I personally just call that Sora is the dominant persona, and he became a heartless. But that's my belief. I see things as clear cut, but other people don't see those. They see other stuff that I don't. So, To each his/her own. I will not argue. I just try to provide facts, and let people do with them as they will.

(I'm not trying to rant here, sorry if it comes off that way.) [[User:Dragonraptyr|Dragonraptyr]] 03:33, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

== The Heartless and the Keyblade ==

As a point of interest, Sora is thus far the only character to officially wield the keyblade as a heartless. This makes him unique as the heartless are supposed to fear the keyblade, which Sora clearly does not. Sora is also the only Heartless to fight for the side of light, and seems clueless about the fact that he remained a heartless until his reunion with Roxas. (That is, he was a heartless until he reunited, not he was clueless until he reunited.) [[User:Dragonraptyr|Dragonraptyr]] 15:39, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Sora only stay as a heartless until Kairi hug him cuz her light made the body made of darkness of the shadow form become a body made of light and his heart give the shape of his old body so he never wield the Keyblade as a heartless--[[User:Xabryn|Xabryn]] 19:26, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
:He's a "unique Heartless", like Xehanort. He regained his form using Kairi's heart, but he didn't take her body, and didn't regain his body from Roxas. It's sort of like how Roxas technically has a heart, so he isn't a normal Nobody, but it isn't ''Sora's'' heart, so he is still a Nobody.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 22:23, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

== A video I put on ==

Can I put this video on the page?
[[Video: Sora turns into a heartless |thumb|300px|left|A video about Sora becoming a heartless]]

==Huh ?==
{{TNE|time=02:56, May 21, 2010 (UTC)|shocktext=Sora remains a pseudo-Heartless ? Huh ? Wha ?}}
:He doesn't have his body and soul back yet. Kairi gave him some sort of substitute, but it's not his, so he's kind of like Ansem SoD inside Riku.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:58, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
Oh yeah. Roxas. Now I remember. Thanks ! ^_^ {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 05:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

Roxas10
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==Untitled==
 Don't we already have [[Shadow Form]]?[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 06:52, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 9: / Line 8: @@
 Sora's Heartless appear as a main atoginast the source of Bug BLock and he's a boss in coded. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 18:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
-:Okay, let me put it this way. If the boss of coded is in fact Sora's own Heartless, then the pages ''will'' be merged, and [[Game:Sora's Heartless]] probably will too.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 19:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
+:Okay, let me put it this way. If the boss of coded is in fact Sora's own Heartless, then the pages ''will'' be merged, and [[Sora's Heartless (Boss)]] probably will too.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 19:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 Instead of Shadow Form maybe Sora's Heartless is a playable Character like Sora, Riku, and etc. He can be first played in the first game. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 20:07, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
@@ Line 102: / Line 101: @@
 Yes, it has been changed, and it should stay that way. Anything with circular definitions for opening sentences needs to be changed. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 00:49, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
-I believe that Sora is still a Heartless somewhat even now. Also, he wasn't a "pseudo-Heartless," he was just humanoid like Xehanort's.--[[Special:Contributions/24.34.218.11|24.34.218.11]] 19:41, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 == Character and Form ==
@@ Line 152: / Line 149: @@
 :Xehanort has completely lost his heart to the darkness, you know that. Come on, admit it. Sora was almost lost. Had he been totally lost, then you could make the same distinction for Xemnas and company. But you know Sora wasn't lost to the darkness. So stop beating round the bush. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 05:59, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
-Cococrash brought this up on my talkpage as well. I agree it is a form.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 06:29, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
+Cococrash brought this up on my talkpage as well. I agree it is a form.--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 06:29, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 :Form only, but not minor character. Like Kryten said, it's a branch of Sora. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#6082B6">Sulu</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#00B7EB">mata</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#002E63">engkudu !</font>]]'''</big> 06:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
-So, this disussion it over?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 17:53, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
+So, this disussion it over?--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 17:53, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 I'm gonna touch on this subject again, this time I'm talking to Cococrash. Judging by your comments on both here and BebopKate's talkpages you obviously didn't understand my previous comment about words. Attempting to belittle others and such will get you nowhere, it will later result in a warning for mis-wiki conduct. Be nice, okay?
@@ Line 218: / Line 215: @@
 Can I put this video on the page?
 [[Video: Sora turns into a heartless |thumb|300px|left|A video about Sora becoming a heartless]]
-{{-}}
 ==Huh ?==
@@ Line 225: / Line 221: @@
 Oh yeah. Roxas. Now I remember. Thanks ! ^_^ {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 05:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
-== Sora-Heartless is NOT the Shadow Form ==
+Roxas10
-{{EO|time=01:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC)|text=This article was once called "Shadow Form", referencing to the thing from KH1. But it was changed thanks to some ordeal about ''Kingdom Hearts coded'' with Cococrash11 to "Sora's Heartless" and now to "Sora-Heartless." This article should be reverted to Shadow Form, as the final boss from ''coded'' turns out to be some twisted Darkside thing as seen [http://www.youtube.com/user/dchiuch?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/7/8xT1b9ISmTw here]. Thus, a separate article should be created and this one reverted back to what it originally was.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|According to coded, that Darkside thing IS the Shadow Form, just massively grown due to what it's been doing to the Journal. As I understand, that's why it reverts back to a Shadow as you continue to damage it.}}
-{{TNE|time=01:54, June 6, 2010 (UTC)|text=If I remember correctly, there was a whole dispute between the form and the character. But because both of them are ultimately the Shadow Heartless (one only changes form just for the sake of challenge :P), I called for both of them to be fused under Sora's Heartless. There were some who didn't support the move, but I didn't see the point of KH and ''coded'' info being separated.}}
-== Trivia ==
-Should a possible parallel between Sora's Heartless creating the Bug Blocks and Vanitas creating the Unversed be mentioned?--[[User:XYZach|ΧƳƵach.]] 19:30, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
-== I'm Just Confused...This is Clarification ==
-Ok, just to set this straight for me...Sora (for most of the end of Kingdom Hearts) was a Heartless? [[KyrianXVII]] 15:14, August 14, 2010 (UTC)[[Special:Contributions/68.61.64.200|68.61.64.200]]
-{{LCCH|text=Wrong. *SPOILER ALERT* After Sora freed his own heart, he became a Heartless. It wasn't for most of the end, just for a short period of time.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|He was a ''normal'' Heartless for that time. After Kairi restored him, he was still some sort of Heartless-like thing, but he had a (not ''his'') mind and body because of Kairi's light.}}
-{{Xabryn|text=Actually I think that he kept his mind Because <spoiler> His body stayed with Roxas's heart and mind </spoiler> that's why he could control himself as a heartless}}
-==video==
-we all should have a video for the boss sora-heartless[[Special:Contributions/65.32.75.73|65.32.75.73]] 16:42, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
-{{Maggosh|nathan=Then by all means, do so.}}
-The original coded version or the Re:coded version?[[Special:Contributions/204.211.185.107|204.211.185.107]] 14:31, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
-Why not Both, it is like that in other articles involving coded bosses. (I would also upload some myself if I had some.) Kuri-Master
-== Appearance in 3D ==
-In the Dive section before the final battle Riku encounters several AntiSora who all exclusively use light magic to attack you (Much like the Heartless in coded), I think this is worth mentioning in the article, but others claim this is unnecessary? --Lycropath 5:19, 3 August (PST)
-:Well, for one it should be on AntiSora, not Sora's Heartless.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:42, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
-::Why should it be on AntiSora's page? It makes more sense for Sora's Heartless to be inside Sora rather than AntiSora. AntiSora is just a Heartless made to look like Sora where as Sora's Heartless is, Sora's Heartless. In coded Sora's Heartless has a Shadow form, a Darkside form and AntiSora form. So it could be either one who appears inside Sora during that Dive. But most likely it's Sora's Heartless. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 11:24, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
-:::Because the Heartless takes on an AntiSora-like form. In actuality, it is only a Shadow. Sora doesn't have a bunch of Shadows flying around in there. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 14:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
-::::But why can't it be a bucnh of his Heartless flying around in there taking on an AntiSora-like form. I just seems wierd that you have three different versions of Sora floating in there and then you have regular Heartlesses rather than his own Heartless. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 15:51, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
-:I'm pretty sure the Heartless was put to rest in coded, wasn't it? Or at least, the last remnants of it were. In either case, this seems like something that shouldn't be stated definitively without Ultimania backing.[[Special:Contributions/192.249.47.177|192.249.47.177]] 16:20, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
-::Well the reason I had put it under Sora's Heartless in the first place would be because it ''fights'' like Sora's Heartless, by using light magic, while AntiSora's only ability was to transform into a flat shadow. Obviously it isn't his real heartless but, I believe that they we're  representations of it much like those falling Sora's we're not the real Sora. --Lycropath 1:44, 4 August (PST)
-== Battle with ASoD ==
-"Although restored to human form, Sora remains a pseudo-Heartless throughout his battle with Ansem, Seeker of Darkness." - when was this ever stated?--[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 11:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
-:Did you read the other sections? This one is a more complicated concept of Kingdom Hearts and explained in Secret Ansem Report 12:
-<blockquote>Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.<br>
-It may be that Sora's memories are slow to return because the half of him that is Roxas is still lacking.</blockquote>
-:Bascially Roxas is Sora's body and soul (and Ven's heart) and Sora just a walking heart and incomplete until the beginning of KHII. --[[Special:Contributions/77.188.28.191|77.188.28.191]] 16:54, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
-== "Human form" nitpicking ==
-I was, as I'm sure many others have been, thrown off by this "pseudo-Heartless" ridiculousness claimed for Sora's state between regaining human form and Roxas rejoining him. From the quotes given in prior sections...
-:Axel: There was a time he became a Heartless. And if one becomes a Heartless---
-:Larxene: They lose their minds and their feelings... They're consumed by the darkness.
-:Axel: Right. But not Sora. He held on to his feelings, even as a Heartless. And there's only one other man who's been able to do just that.
-...
-:Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.
-:It may be that Sora's memories are slow to return because the half of him that is Roxas is still lacking.
-...
-:[insert Sora's "falling into darkness" lines from KH1 here]
-That last set used by Coco to argue that Sora's Heartless (as the playable Shadow) was a separate entity. While this Shadow form is generally agreed as an altered state, at least of what parts of Sora it concerns (though I'm still lost on how a Pureblood could contain a heart), I'm not sold on referring to Sora's human form as "Sora's Heartless's human form". The quotes above very easily suggest as much, especially in comparing him to "only one other man", here I'm presuming to be Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, who very much could be considered a "human form" and "a Heartless". But the language could also, if not with a bit of strain, read, "He held on to his feelings, even as a [Shadow] Heartless," and, "Sora's Heartless [reverted to being Sora] using Kairi's heart," though the latter has the condition of "as much of Sora as is available to be".
-Basically, that Sora (as Sora's Heartless) became Sora (as an incomplete being), rather than Sora's Heartless (as a Shadow) becoming Sora's Heartless (as a human). Is there anything more absolute in its wording, from an Ultimania or something, saying that the incomplete Sora from late KH1 to early KH2 is a Heartless? If not, I think the wiki's phrasing should be similarly indefinite, and/or at the least use the relevant quotes that have lead its editors to the current conclusion. [[User:TJF588|TJF588]] ([[User talk:TJF588|talk]]) 01:08, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
-:To expand on the comparison to SoD!Ansem, is there any significant differences to the build or facial features of that character compared to Xemnas (or even T-Xehanort)? Since it has been shown that Organization members' human builds are no significantly different, if at all, from their Nobodies' (at least, Lea's just as disturbingly lanky as Axel), then SoD!Ansem differing from Xemnas would suggest that, despite looking human, SoD!Ansem might not be considered a "human form", which presumably Xemnas identically resembles (hair styles aside on all counts). If SoD!Ansem then isn't a "human form", the comparison to Sora may purely be of "Sora's [Shadow] Heartless" and "Xehanort's [human-like] Heartless". This reads as overcomplicated even to me, but the KH series itself is overcomplicated, so I'll argue it until sufficiently shot down. [[User:TJF588|TJF588]] ([[User talk:TJF588|talk]])
-== Re:coded ==
-Do we have the ability to rip the model of the full Darkside form?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
-==True Form==
-In the "Appearance" section of this page, it says "then as an AntiSora, then finally as the Shadow that serves as its true form." So, the AntiSora is ''not'' it's true form. It's true form is a Shadow (unless this information is incorrect). --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:36, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
-:According to the game page, the AntiSora is the True Form. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 08:11, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
-::Do you know which page is the incorrect one? --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 08:21, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
-:::Neither are incorrect. "True Form" is the name of the AntiSora-looking thing, according to the Ultimania, while the Shadow is its true form according to the plot. It's an Ansem/Ansem situation.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:34, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
-::::Oh, okay. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-==Data-Heartless or Separate?==
-Up until now, I've always thought Sora's Heartless in Coded was a digitized version based on data that became more than just data, similar to Data Sora who developed his own identity. This article seems to claim something else, that is, when Kairi turned Sora back into his normal self, his Heartless seemed to form an identity of its own and somehow invade the journal before it was digitized. How did that happen, and when/where was this confirmed? [[User:Diamonddeath|Diamonddeath]] ([[User talk:Diamonddeath|talk]]) 10:46, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
-:The article is claiming the first thing you said. I can't really see where you're coming to the second interpretation, can you please clarify what in the article is leading you to it?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:03, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
-== Data-Sora's Heartless ==
-By any chance, does "Data-Sora's Heartless" as a name ever appear in full in a canon source? If so, can we create it as a redirect, and bold it in the lead?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:12, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
-== Physical Form ==
-So, all references to Sora being a Heartless from the end of KH1 to the beginning of KH2 have been removed from the page.
-If that's no longer accurate, should the 'Physical Form' tab still even be here? I don't think Sora's Heartless ever looked like that, if he wasn't one after Kairi revived him. --[[File:Riku Sprite KHD.png]] [[User:Mikoto|mikoto]] 04:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
-:I agree. I did a quick scan through ''Re:coded'' to double check that the data version of Sora's Heartless also didn't take Sora's appearance, but it's just the two boss forms. I'll go ahead and remove it from the page. —[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 03:12, 29 April 2023 (UTC)