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| I disagree with claiming Seifer was being totally mocking (with zero sincerity) when he mentioned the possibility of friendship with Roxas. If NinjaSheik has something we can both find satisfactory, go for it. Another possibility is just erasing the friendship part entirely. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 19:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC) | | I disagree with claiming Seifer was being totally mocking (with zero sincerity) when he mentioned the possibility of friendship with Roxas. If NinjaSheik has something we can both find satisfactory, go for it. Another possibility is just erasing the friendship part entirely. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 19:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC) |
| :His tone in that line was, in the English dub, very sarcastic. The wording of the line is also very aggressive. The journal talks about there being bad blood between Seifer and Hayner's gang, and as soon as Sora shows up, Seifer accuses them of being there to pick a fight. It's possible the line was a prelude to his eventual grudging respect for Sora, who didn't have the "bad blood" between them, but at the moment in time he gave that line, it seemed pretty clear he still hated Roxas.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC) | | :His tone in that line was, in the English dub, very sarcastic. The wording of the line is also very aggressive. The journal talks about there being bad blood between Seifer and Hayner's gang, and as soon as Sora shows up, Seifer accuses them of being there to pick a fight. It's possible the line was a prelude to his eventual grudging respect for Sora, who didn't have the "bad blood" between them, but at the moment in time he gave that line, it seemed pretty clear he still hated Roxas.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC) |
| ::That was also part of my reasoning I presented before. Seifer and Roxas clearly are being antaognistic towards each other: facial expression, body language, tone, and dialogue makes this very clear. But I'd like to go a bit deeper, as Soroxas made the remark that I was "forcing my interpretation" of the scene rather than relying on what's objectively shown in the scene. In fact, completely disregarding the tone, the dialogue itself clearly indicates Seifer was being sarcastic in his scene with Roxas. First, here is the scene in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XsJTbBcqk&list=PL9LJDo1akA8EZl8NVOrgcgsDJ0jBF59FC&index=4 Japanese] and [https://youtu.be/WTeauA6vaPI?t=12m49s the English] versions of the game. From the beginning, the argument Soroxas presented was contradictory, as they kept pointing back the sarcastic line Seifer said without bothering to look at the following that makes it clear Seifer was being mocking in this scene. The conversation is as followed:
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| :::'''Seifer''': "Why does looking at you always tick me off?"
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| :::'''Roxas''': "I dunno. Maybe it's destiny."
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| :::'''Seifer''': "Destiny... In that case, let's be friends. '''I don't feel like cooperating with destiny'''."
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| May I draw your attention to the line I have bolded. If Seifer was sincere by saying, "It's destiny, then let's be friends," then why would he say in the next line, "I don't feel like cooperating with destiny"? He's outright rejecting the idea of being friends with Roxas and co. by saying a line that completely contradicts the previous one. He's saying, "If it's destiny for us to be friends, then I'm not going to cooperate with that destiny." The Japanese dialogue matches with the English, as Seifer states in the Japanese he wants to resist destiny. It's a clean translation between the Japanese and English versions, and again, it's pretty obvious Seifer only showed up in that scene to make fun of Roxas and friends. As Kryten pointed out, the journals make it clear that the virtual version Seifer has bad blood against Roxas and friends.
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| Outside the stimulation, Seifer still exhibits his more negative traits. That said, he's not a bad character, as he later gives Sora the Struggle trophy as a sign of respect for his strength, but that is a completely separate matter. Again, this isn't a personal interpretation, but rather an objective fact given to us, the viewers, clearly through the characters' body language, facial expressions, tone, dialogue, and the full context of the scene and the relationship between these characters. Please provide an objective counterargument without biases or subjective feelings if you have one. If none is presented, we'll bring in other users and cast a vote, as per policy.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
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| :First of all, I'm not female (and you criticized me for assuming things about you...)
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| :Secondly, I'm not denying there's been rivalry and bad blood and hostility between Seifer and Roxas. However, just because there has been in the past, it doesn't mean that the two can't show some friendliness eventually or change their feelings.
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| :Thirdly, just because Seifer gives a reason for wanting to be friends (i.e. not cooperating with fate), it doesn't make a possible desire any less real. Sure, he may want to become friends (or at the very least, be friendlier) because he hates the idea of being a victim of fate, but '''it doesn't necessarily mean he's mocking the possibility of a friendship as if it's a stupid idea'''. If anything, he's entertaining and pondering the idea, not throwing it out the window and thinking becoming friends is a ridiculous idea.
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| :Fourthly, I stand by my point that you thinking there's no sincerity at all from Seifer is still an interpretation (not a fact) of that scene, and that by denying all possible sincerity and rejecting my interpretation as a possibility, you're pushing an interpretation. But that's enough about that, or we'll keep going in circles. At the end of the day, we can't know all of Seifer's true intentions during that scene, so we should leave it open ended. Like the lyrics of Don't Think Twice from KH3, sometimes people can say things they don't really mean. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 22:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
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| :::Ah, apologies. I actually meant to put a dash there it would be "s/he" to keep it gender-neutral, but I suppose "they" would be better. I fixed the typo now.
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| :::And I will have to continue to disagree with you. You mentioned you're not denying the rivalry between the two, but your counterargument in the second post, you argue based on a possibilities and not really providing an argument based on the evidence given to us. All you've given is opinions and the hope their relationship has changed at that point in the game, despite a few seconds before that, Seifer admits that he gets ticked off by looking at Roxas and we can seeing them glaring at each other. You aren't really giving anything to support your conclusion based what's in the game, only your opinions.
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| :::It is a fact. Body language, facial expressions, tone, dialogue, and context, plus the additional information included in the game itself, outright confirms it. You are continuing to insist upon your own interpretation, disregarding the evidence I presented and having none to present yourself, so yes, we'll agree to disagree. As per policy, I'd like to request other users to chime in and voice their thoughts so we can close this matter.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:42, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
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| ::::Years of feelings towards someone or something can change in less than 5 seconds because of something told to you that makes you ponder and question *why* you think the way you do. It's not impossible. For example, this could occur to a bully who has bullied their victim and has seen their victim cry as a result for the first time. For Seifer, the "tears" would be the concept of becoming a victim of fate. If you don't think that scene is about this concept, then it makes the scene pointless, as if it's just "HAHA, you suck Roxas! (insert talk about becoming friends, victims of fate, destiny, cooperation) HAHAHA, I still hate you Roxas!" It doesn't make sense. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 22:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::I mean...yeah, it's a pretty short scene, it's not really a speech about those concepts. Seifer's tone is derisive, aggressive, and sarcastic. Those are the markers of being insincere. Roxas also clearly didn't interpret it as sincere, as he seems shocked that Seifer had (before the talk) agreed to investigate the Old Mansion with Hayner's gang.
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| :::::At least in the English version, it's presented as "man, I hate you. Oh, you think it's destiny? Well I hate destiny too, so suuuuure, let's be friends." It comes off as mocking Roxas's retort more than it does any sort of serious, sincere introspection, and illustrates Seifer's anti-social, aggressive personality, similar to how not everything Braig/Xigbar says is honest/sincere.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| ::::::I guess it's ''possible'' to read it as a precursor to Seifer's grudging respect for Sora later in the game, but again, that respect is ''grudging'' -- more out of a sense of honor and fair play (hallmarks of Seifer Almasy in FF8 as well) rather than having any fondness for Sora as a person. Final Fantasy Opera Omnia also has a subplot with Seifer that illustrates this kind of personality -- he's ''very'' antisocial, but follows a "code" of knighthood.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::::Except Seifer doesn't actually say "so suuuuure", and I think Seifer just has natural "resting jerk voice" in the way that some people have "resting bitch face". In any case, this debate is getting too long. How about if we added "although he says it in a manner with debatable sincerity"? Seems fair and neutral. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 15:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| ::::::::Right, I was paraphrasing. The line immediately before the destiny-back-and-forth was him repeating Roxas's words about the ghost train with a mocking tone. In fact, ''each'' of his lines was like this -- Hayner and gang say something sincere, Seifer reflects it back at them mockingly ("What do you care?" "I don't. Tell me anyway"). It's very out-of-character for this Seifer, and just Seifer Almasy in general, to be mercurial and quickly changing moods as you're suggesting. The original Seifer was basically ''defined'' by committing to a course of action long past the point it was clearly a bad idea. The wiki isn't supposed to be self-referencing, so "debatable" would be improper. As far as "resting jerk voice" -- the game says with the narrator's authority that Seifer simply ''is'' an antisocial, bossy jerk, like in FF8. It's not presented as "he just has a brusque tone".
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| ::::::::More to the point, plot synopses sections shouldn't be script regurgitations. The main point of this scene is (1) Seifer shows up to bully Hayner's gang, and (2) remind them that they have an investigation into the Old Mansion scheduled for the next day. The whole line about "why Roxas ticks him off" is inappropriate focus on a throwaway line that was not the point of that scene. As it is, this article's plot synopsis section is missing almost all of Seifer's actual plot, and giving undue attention to this line.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::::::Looking at the scene again, it definitely comes over as sarcastic. But is it really important to the story? Can't we just put a sentence in his Personality section about how he doesn't want to cooperate with destiny? It seems to me that scene is more about his personality, rather than actual story purpose. Also, the page currently says he's being hostile towards Roxas, because he thought Roxas was the photo thief, but I don't think that's correct. While we don't see anything from before that day, the characters seemingly have memories of before then, and Seifer and his gang have a rivalry with Hayner's gang (which includes Roxas). So I think it's incorrect to say he's only being hostile because he thinks Roxas is the photo thief. Actually, a lot of the Story section doesn't seem to be written in a story-way. I think it should be more about what Seifer does, like telling everyone Roxas is the photo thief, losing in the Struggle Tournament and telling Roxas that Vivi wasn't himself, fighting the dusks, etc. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:25, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| ::::::::::Honesty, I think this is the only thing we ''can'' do which will satisfy everyone at this point (removing the "friend" talk in Story). I'm in favor of this so we can end this already. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the ''only'' reason why there's hostility between them, but it is certainly a reason. [[User:Soroxas|Soroxas]] ([[User talk:Soroxas|talk]]) 18:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
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| ==Quote==
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| "That was undeniable proof that we totally owned you lamers."
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| — talking to Roxas and company about being the thief.
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| Can this be his quote?
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| [[User:Jboddez|Jboddez]] ([[User talk:Jboddez|talk]]) 06:35, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
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| :The quote on the character's page is supposed to show their personality. So the current quote is better. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 16:04, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
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