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| {{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC) | | {{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
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| "a puppet replica of the shadows in my heart...and NOW, I'm facing ME." "This world seems to have gone back in time." Need I say more? [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 17:57, 13 February 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
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| :Apparently, because it's not clear what you're trying to say. In any case, the original Japanese line does not have the implication that the apparition is obviously distinct from the Repliku.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 06:03, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
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| But aren't we supposed to be the ENGLISH wiki? And how is that not clear?(a rhetorical question) [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 18:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronlad Rilander
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| English wiki doesn't mean we ignore the authorial context when basing an interpretation on assumption.
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| And no, its not clear. Just say what you're trying to argue instead of trying to be snarky.[[Special:Contributions/184.244.185.5|184.244.185.5]] 20:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
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| Snarky?! I'm not being snarky, I'm being reasonable. At the very least I'm not arguing to no end. How about we just agree to disagree, all of us, and stop this pointless arguing? Well, that's what I'm gonna do, you guys do what you want. [[Special:Contributions/97.81.35.41|97.81.35.41]] 22:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander
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| ::...You still haven't made it clear whether you're even disagreeing. Seriously, stop wasting time being snarky and just state whatever your point is. As it is, you're wasting our time.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
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| There seems to be a lack of solid evidence that the Riku we saw in Monstro was Riku Replica. Sure, it would make good sense, but relying on any implications, regardless of how strong, would be simply speculating, and unless something's changed lately, we don't deal with speculation, only solid facts and evidence, and there seems to be none that say that this Riku is the Riku Replica.
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| As far as Riku mentioning the Replica and the CoM chronicle appearing in that cutscene, I have this to say:
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| A) Riku ''mentioned'' the Replica, he did not identify the cloaked Riku as such.
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| B) Yes, the CoM chronicle did appear shortly after the cloaked Riku vanished, it was not cued by his presence, but by Riku's aforementioning of the Replica. Therefore, none of the events that mention the Replica have any direct attachment to the cloaked Riku, therefore there is no direct evidence that said Riku was the Replica, therefore the infobox should be changed back
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| P.S. Sorry for resurrecting an old dispute, but I only just now discovered the change and I feel that if I think that the wiki made a mistake, it should be rectified, regardless of how long ago it was--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 08:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :Riku Replica is the only logical choice AT THIS TIME. We know it's not Data-Riku because 3D isn't inside the datascape. So Riku Replica is the only logical choice that isn't Riku himself, and we know that it isn't Riku himself from what we have. The CoM stuff is just extra evidence that it MAY be Riku Replica, but all fingers point to Riku Replica AT THIS TIME. Hopefully more info is given out before KH3 or with KH3. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 08:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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| ::So the only thing we have is best guess? Last I checked we only posted stuff that we have evidence for. The only thing that even suggests that this is Riku Replica is that it looks like Riku, which isn't really evidence at all. I don't think we should get into the habit of posting blatant speculation just because it's the current best guess.--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 23:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :::I never said we were guessing, we were assuming based off evidence we were given and had. The only person who looks like Riku that way is the Replica, that we know of. With the evidence of the CoM Chronicle appearing in the same scene, we can LOGICALLY assume, based on evidence, that it is Riku Replica. Until we have other evidence that it isn't, it seems pretty solid so far. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 08:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
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| Assuming is making conclusions without evidence. We don not do that here. The CoM chronicle is not evidence to the fact because it appeared when Riku mentioned the Replica, so it has nothing to do with the doppelganger's presence, therefore it can not be seen as proof towards him being the Replica. Sure, of the three ''known'' Riku's, the Replica is the one that makes the most amount of sense, but that alone should not be seen as proof that this doppleganger is the Replica. --{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 17:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :Normally, I would say no to this but KH3D has so many plot holes and crap that the only thing we ''can'' do is assume. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 18:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
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| ::Then what are we supposed to put? The only logical one to put it as is the Riku Replica. AT THIS TIME, I really don't see the big deal because if we don't put it as the replica and put it as Riku, THAT is a bad assumption, because we literally have no proof regarding that. At least with the Replica, we know it still exists in the story. We can't just pull this thought that it's Riku because we don't know the meaning behind "And now I'm facing me." So for now, in my opinion, the logical explanation is that it's the Riku Replica, because we know he exists. If we got legitimate proof that Xehanort grabbed Ansem-possessed Riku and that was him, then that would be fine, but we literally have no proof. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 18:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :::You literally have no proof that this is Riku Replica, and yet you are saying that assuming that it is him makes so much more sense. I'm not saying we should make a whole new to this page for the doppleganger or to make false assumptions as to his identity, simply not make any assumptions at all. Make a mention of his appearance on the necessary pages (as is already done), and change the infobox picture of Riku Replica back to Dark Riku. That is all. The idea of it being Riku Replica is a wonderful theory, but for now, that is all it is.--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 19:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :The thing you're missing is that there isn't a "null" option in this case. There's claiming they're definitely different beings, and giving it a separate page, and there's implying that this character is ''best covered on the Riku Replica page'' (as a dark replica of Riku), and covering it as such on the page (notice how we word it). Splitting it off to a separate page not only hides the article so people won't find it, but is a direct claim that we are dealing with separate characters; the best and strongest evidence at this point (with the implication being a fair deal more clear than you're giving it credit) is that we are seeing a form of the Riku Replica. For that matter, Young Xehanort said he gathered the suitable incarnations of Xehanort, and the replica is a being that (1) copied a host of Xehanort's heart, and willingly chose the darkness that host rejected, and (2) was made by a host of Xehanort's heart.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:50, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
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| ::At this point, the only thing I am asking to be changed is the infobox picture. I did see the way you worded it, and I commend you with that. However, the fact that the main infobox picture being what it is says that we are of the stance that the doppleganger is without a doubt Riku Replica, which I feel there is too little direct evidence to support. All I am asking is for the infobox image to be changed back to Dark Mode Riku until we can say for absolute sure, instead of relying on assumptions. Is that too unreasonable? --{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :::I agree. We're not asking you to take out the information pertaining to the doppelganger. We're just asking you to change the Infobox picture, because despite your reasoning to keep the info there, it still doesn't warrant to have the infobox image match that doppleganger without clear evidence that it was same person. I mean for all we know, that doppleganger could've been nothing more than an illusion, Riku was in the dream world after all. Keep the information there, but change the infobox image back to Dark Mode Riku until further notice. THAT is what makes MORE sense. Is that too much ask? [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 18:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
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| Well, might as well throw in my two cents:
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| *First, in my opinion, the hooded figure in KH3D is Riku himself, in the past. Remember, the Riku Replica did not kidnap Pinocchio, it was Riku in Kingdom Hearts. The quote, "That was my...my dark side. I gave in to the darkness once. And ever since, it's chased me around in one form or another. The Seeker of Darkness who stole my body...a puppet replica of the shadows in my heart...and now, I'm facing me." the "me" is Riku, himself. If you were Riku, and you were talking about the puppet, would you say "me"? No, because you're not the puppet, you're Riku. I think that, as the world is in the past, that the events in Prankster's Paradise are simply a replay of the events from before it's destruction by darkness all the way through the events of Monstro in the original Kingdom Hearts. The hooded figure has nothing to do with Xehanort or the True Organization. However, that's my assumption.
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| *Second, the chronicle evidence. Yes, the Chain of Memories chronicle was triggered in that scene. However, who's to say it was not triggered simply when Riku mentioned the Riku Replica. If you notice, Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance is, at least in part, a telling of how all the previous six games tie in with the overall plot and this game's plot. Simply mentioning the Replica could have sufficed to remind the player about the events of Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.
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| *Thirdly, and more importantly, the assumption that the hooded figure is the Riku Replica is, by definition, speculation. [http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/assume Merriam-Webster lists speculation as a word related to assume], and [https://www.google.com/#q=define+assume Google] defines assume as to "suppose to be the case, without proof." Both words have similar, almost exact meanings. (Here is [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/speculate speculate] and [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assume assume]. Note that under speculate, assume is listed as a synonym). And this wiki is strictly anti-speculation, and I quote "Speculation should not be added into any article whatsoever" -[[KHWiki:Manual_of_Style#General|From the Manual of Style]]. Here's another one "'''Not allowed in artices''' -Rumors or speculation on the Kingdom Hearts series." -[[Help:Editing#Not_Allowed_in_Articles|From Help:Editing]]. Plain and simply, you cannot speculate, or assume, based on the "evidence" you have. It must be explicitly stated. An example lived on this wiki is the recent crisis with the Game icon after the announcement of Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX. The claim why we could not put the icon, no matter how obvious it was, was that it was speculation, because the game wasn't out, even though KHHD2.5 is more a compilation of previous games than a whole new game. Yet, this wiki stood by the policy. And now I see that the policy is being chucked out willy-nilly. For a site that prides itself in being a fact-based encyclopedia, this is a huge blow. You CANNOT simply choose when to be speculative and when you can be "assumptious".
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| *My suggestion, as far as covering this hooded Riku: put it in Riku's article, as part of the story. Something like "Riku finds that the kidnapper was an individual who looks similar to himself, reminding him of all the times the darkness has chased him." He doesn't need a new page, because he is not explicitly a different person. Neither can we assume that he is the Riku Replica simply because the chronicle was triggered in the same scene.
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| -{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}18:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :"the "me" is Riku" -- I've already addressed, several times, why that is an incorrect interpretation of the line.
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| :"Thirdly, and more importantly, the assumption that the hooded figure is the Riku Replica is, by definition, speculation." -- No, what it is is not requiring the character to have a nametag on them every single time we see them It's not assuming that every time in CoM that the RR doesn't say it's the RR, it's really Riku teleporting up from the basement. It's a very basic interpretation of what's going on based on what is directly shown and ''what happens everywhere else in the game''.
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| :For KHII.5, we don't put the icon down because every time people put the icons down before the game comes out (even with 1.5!), they fuck something up and we've decided "hey, we know this is going to be a clusterfuck, please can we not do the same stupid thing this time, kay?" For RR, the game is out. It was called "Kingdom Hearts 3D". We're describing a scene that ''has already been published'', not making guesses about something that is yet to be shown.
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| :"However, who's to say it was not triggered simply when Riku mentioned the Riku Replica." -- "All other Chronicles appear after scenes that depict characters from that game; Days is obtained after the Roxas-Axel scene is revisited, BbS is obtained after Vanitas is shown, KH1 is obtained after Ansem is shown, KH2 is obtained after Xemnas is shown (I believe), and coded is obtained after Maleficent and Pete try to retake the dataspace."
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| :Yeah, sure, we can change the image. I don't really think we should be using black coat images outside of the organization pages anyway, regardless of the "most recent depiction rule", because they are ''hella'' bland.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:44, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
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| :Well, "the "me" is Riku" and all that was just my opinion, first of all. I would like to continue this discussion, but I also feel the article is written correctly at this point, or at least, it's agreeable. If you guys want, we can continue our lovely discussion, but I feel it'd be better on the forums at this point. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}18:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
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| ==Revisiting Dream Drop Distance Riku==
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| Not to dredge up old debates, but I think we should address this going forward now that Kingdom Hearts III is out. What is the situation exactly? Riku's apparent dark side kidnaps Pinocchio just like he did in OG Kingdom Hearts, but in Kingdom Hearts III it is suggested that Riku Replica's Heart had been wandering the Realm of Darkness until Riku showed up there to save Aqua, and even if it was Riku Replica (which I further doubt because Riku Replica has never been seen in a Black Coat) how then could he interact with Pinocchio, when Kingdom Hearts III shows that Riku Replica can only be seen by Riku after he takes residence in Riku's Heart, and any time before that he'd have been just a Heart. So Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance Riku Doppelganger can't be Riku Replica. But at the same time, was Dark Riku present in the Organization at the time? Even was approached by Saix shortly after Lea left Radiant Garden to search for Braig and Isa, and we see Vexen complete his work on the Replicas during the events of Kingdom Hearts III, allowing himself and Demyx to be replaced by Xion and Dark Riku. So if this isn't Dark Riku or Riku Replica then who do we encounter in Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance? At the very least, I think that we should move the Dream Drop Distance information to the Dark Riku page. ([[User:Levi657|Levi657]] ([[User talk:Levi657|talk]]) 12:47, 2 March 2019 (UTC))
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| Vexen wouldn't have needed to be a member for Dark Riku to join, Xemnas/Ansem/Young all had replica bodies from the old batch so Dark Riku could have initially just have had one of those. It can't be good Riku Replica since he didn't meet up with Riku until he went to the realm of darkness in KH3. So yeah, the info should be moved to Dark Riku. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 16:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :I don't think is Dark Riku, because of a dialogue in KH3 where Demyx confirm he was substitute by a Replica. This mean he was a member during DDD, nad the others replicas in the Organization are: Ansem, Xemnas, Young Xehanort, Dark Riku and Xion.<br>
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| :Ansem, Xemnas and Young Xehanort already are present during DDD events, so Demyx are not refering about them, Xion was created later, even because the experiments made by YX in Toy Box and by Dark Riku in San Fransokyo seems to be for remake Xion.<br>
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| :Vanitas was not a Replica since he said he recreated his body using the screem and sadness energy from Monstropolis, so his body is natural, not a Replica, and probably when Sora saw him in Cité des Cloches was really him in a "incorporated" form, similar how we see Eraqus in the end of KH3, since when Sora say "you are the one of the cathedral" Vanitas don't seems surprised, like he was really there.
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| :If Dark Riku was present during DDD the members numbers will not make sense:
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| *1-Master Xehanort
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| *2-Ansem
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| *3-Xemnas
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| *4-Demyx
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| *5-Luxord
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| *6-Xigbar
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| *7-Terra-Xehanort
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| *8-Vanitas
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| *9-Marluxia
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| *10-Larxene
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| *11-Saix
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| *12-Young Xehanort
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| *13-Dark Riku
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| :During DDD the memebers was only 12, not 13, and Dark Riku is the only one that make sense to be the Demyx's substitute, so I don't think the Riku we saw in DDD was Dark Riku, but just Replica Riku, how this is possible I don't know, but considering what was said and what the Org. do in the end of DDD, just don't make sense to him to be Dark Riku, since all the others replica we know was there, and Xion was created after Demyx was substitute--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.173|93.150.192.173]] 17:23, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
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| Demyx wasn't necessarily one of the chosen who appeared in DDD, Dark Riku could have already taken his spot in that game. Would make sense that he'd already been substituted since Larxene was surprised when he showed up in KH3. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 17:35, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :It is not clear that Terra-Xehanort showed up at the meeting, as according to the Ultimania he would have reformed due to the same stuff Xehanort did, so it's more likely that he was captured ("belongs to us") but not inducted. Also, Dark Riku ''is'' Replica Riku, just from when he was still a dick.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
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| ::But Demyx confirm that he was substitute by a new replica, and Larxene could be surprised even because they didn't see the faces of each others, and since they was 12 during the end of DDD and MX confirmed that Terra-Xehanort was one of them, that mean he was there, or will not make sense capture Sora, because then they would have 14 members, and not make sense for MX remove one of the guardians if he already have 13, even because he already have 12 (13 with Sora) in the end of DDD.
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| ::I will try to be more clear.
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| *During DDD the Org. was composed by 12 members, the confirmed in DDD 100% are: MX, Ansem, Xemnas, Xigbar, Saix, YG, Vanitas (he appeared in the Cité des Cloches and in KH3 seems was really him, since he wasn't surprised when Sora say "you are the one of the cathedral"), TX (he was mentioned as a member, and he is not one in the thrones room, then with Sora will make 14 members planned during DDD).
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| *Demyx confirmed that a new replica take his place in KH3.
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| *Ansem (with replica body), Xemnas (with replica body), YG (with replica body) was already members in the org. during KH3, Dark Riku is the only other replica we know.
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| *Terra-Xehanort returned using he real Terra body with the past MX heart (apparently before lingering Will was created, since in KH3 he didn't know who is Lingering Will)
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| *Vanitas recreated his body using sadness and screems from Monstropolis, since he say that in KH3, so, he don't using any replica body.
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| *Xion was created after Demyx say that he was substitute by a replica, since both YX and Dark Riku in KH3 was making exeperiment for recreate Xion, was even said that Vexen was working for another replica.
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| ::With all this point, the only plausible member that could substitute Demyx can be only Dark Riku, since any other replica was already there, and Xion was created after.--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.173|93.150.192.173]] 16:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
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| Demyx says a replica stole his spot, he never states it was a new one. ("The replicas are way more real than you remember. I mean one stole my spot!"). Marluxia then goes on to say that none of Vexen's new replicas are finished (these new unfinished replicas are likely the [[Replica Xehanort]]s). --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 17:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :But if you are right that mean during DDD the members was already 13 (14 with Sora) and that will make no sense. Btw, all the things about the experiemtns made by YX and Dark Riku, seems to be related to Xion, since they was talking about emotions too, and was said their members are not complete (so, Xion wasn't complete still), Dark Riku is the only one that make sense to be the one that stole Demyx's spot--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.192.173|93.150.192.173]] 18:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
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| Dark Riku being a member in DDD would just mean Demyx was benched in DDD, which would still make it so that they only have 12. They only had 12 in KHIII and Demyx was on the bench rather than being their 13th, so seems they never planned on having him be one of the chosen anyway. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 19:48, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :He shows up in a black coat and uses a corridor of darkness. It's all but stated that it's the Riku who ends up in the organization. Mickey (confusingly) says that Terra-Xehanort must be the 13th, implying that they believe that Terra-Xehanort wasn't present last time.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
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| :Okay, we have Ultimania confirmation: "The 12 members who were gathered in KH3D were missing the 13th, Xion, and reserve members Demyx and Vexen."
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| :So, Dark Riku was there, not Demyx. Demyx must have been benched all the way back in KH3D.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:56, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
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| == Violates manual of style ==
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| Please rewrite this.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
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| It would later turn out that Riku Replica's heart had simply gone to the [[Realm of Darkness]] after the loss of his physical body. Wandering the endless realm for over a year, the replica was about to give up holding on to existence and fade away, until he saw the original Riku being attacked by a [[Demon Tower]]. After Riku was swallowed into its darkness, Riku Replica asked Riku if he wanted help, his voice heavily muffled. When Riku asked who he was, the replica revealed his indentity and helped free Riku from the swarm of [[Shadow]]s. However, this had broken the top half of [[Way to the Dawn]] off in the process. Riku left the broken Keyblade behind for Riku Replica to pick up while he and [[the King]] returned to [[Mysterious Tower]] for stronger armaments against the Heartless.
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| When Riku and the King returned, they were attacked by a [[Demon Tide]] controlled by [[Anti-Aqua]]. The replica entered Riku's heart and asked if he wanted his old Keyblade back, having repaired Way to the Dawn in his absence. Riku thanked him for the offer, but told him he had [[Braveheart|his own Keyblade]].
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| When the [[Seven Guardians of Light|Guardians of Light]] took a night to rest before the [[Keyblade War]], Riku sat alone on the beach. He was joined by Riku Replica, whom he knew had taken sanctuary in his heart since their last fight. The replica told Riku that there was one last thing he needed to do, which is why he held on this long.
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| At the Keyblade Graveyard, [[Dark Riku]] is defeated, yelling that he is the real Riku to the original's confusion; they had assumed Dark Riku was the version of himself back when [[Ansem, Seeker of Darkness|Ansem]] possessed him. Riku Replica appeared before Riku in a golden aura, explaining that Dark Riku was actually HIS past self, not Riku's. The replica plunged his fist into Dark Riku, knocking him out of [[Dark Mode]]. Realising his past heart was about to vanish, the replica merged with the vessel and pulled out his past heart. Riku yelled for him to use the vessel for himself. However, he told Riku that the world already had the original; he had no place in it. The empty [[Replica]] deserved to go to somebody else. Riku realized that Riku Replica had been keeping his promise to protect [[Naminé]]. With those final words between them, the replica accepted his fate and faded away with his past heart.
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| == Repliku in KH3 Confusion ==
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| So, this whole time I thought Repliku merged with Riku when he saved him from darkness during the first visit to the RoD. However, upon further reading, apparently Repliku didn't merge with him until the second trip.
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| This makes sense... except now I'm confused by the first lines they exchange on the beach.
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| Repliku: How long have you known that I was with you?
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| Riku: You ''did'' save me.
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| If Repliku only entered Riku's heart after the fight with Anti-Aqua, what does he mean? Is he saying that Riku, in-between that fight and the talk on the beach, figured out Repliku joined him? And Riku apparently figured it out because he saved him the FIRST time he went to the RoD????
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| As an aside, why is it written that Repliku offered Riku the new WttD? I didn't get that from the scene with Anti-Aqua at all. They just... looked at each other, and then Repliku merged with Riku.--[[User:Mikoto|Mikoto]] ([[User talk:Mikoto|talk]]) 10:24, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
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