Editing Talk:Limit Break

Great page, whoever did this. I could never do this. I hope this page doesn't get combined with limits.--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 05:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

{{DTN|happytext=Thanks, Xsonicdragon! I'm the one who created this page. I also do not want the page merged with [[Limit]]. They are different abilities that appear in different games that work in different manners. The User who suggested the merge considers them to be very similar, but I disagree. Again, thanks!}}
{{KrytenKoro|Response:
#They are not different abilities. We have seen several of these before - Sora, Donald, Goofy, and Mickey all have limits they had in previous games. In fact, right now the Limit Break article wastes a lot of space saying "Yeah, they've done this stuff before" for nearly every character
#KH2 and KH1 are different games, yet the Trinity Limit ability appears in both. Ars Arcanum and the other's also appear in both games, and are considered Limits due to Limit Form in KH2FM as well.
#Again, the various limits work differently between KH1 and KH2 as well. Many things do - Serenity and gummi ships for example. We still cover them in the same articles, because they are the ''same basic thing'', with some tweaks to the game mechanics to keep the game from being the same thing over and over.
}}

Limits can be used at any battle at any time as long as Sora has MP. And why is it that ars arcanum, strike raid, ragnorak, and sonic blade are not in the limits page? Limit Breaks and Limits work differently. 
<p>1. During a limit, you are invincible. During a Limit Break, you can still be harmed, just that the damage is reduced.</p>
<p>2. Limits can easily be used by just using all of Sora's MP (with the exception of ragnorak, ars arcanum, strike raid, and sonic blade. Limit Breaks can be used when your hp goes down to the yellow bar of the hp bar and makes it harder to use it again for the current mission after using it once.</p>
<p>3. The length and damage of limits depends on the current enemy and his location and which buttons you press to attack. The length of limit breaks depends on your current hp, the lower the hp, the more time your limit break lasts.</p>
--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 16:55, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
{{DTN|time=20:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)|text=Response to the response:
#They '''are''' different abilities in the manner of how they work, are executed, and the user's defensive status while using the ability. In the sense that you are speaking, about half of these techniques haven't been seen before.
#Although Ars Arcanum, Strike Raid, Sonic Blade, and Ragnarok all appear in KH2FM through Limit Form, they are '''not Limits'''. They are simply combo finishers that are the peak of Limit Form's abilities.
#However, many things work the same in KH1 and KH2. For example, equipment is still made the same way. Many items in KH2 still have the exact same effect that they did in the original. Sephiroth is still the superboss. The Hades Cup is still meant to be the most difficult trial in the coliseum. And, about Trinity Limit on this subject, it remained the exact same between KH1 and KH:CoM.

Isn't the Limit page crowded enough already? Plus, the Limit Break is the peak of ''358/2 Days'''s new battle techniques. Because of this, it should get its own article, not just get thrown into something similar.

<center>http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/dented-marble/DTNCampaign.png</center>}}
{{Xiggie|time=20:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)|happy=hehe :P

anyway, I have to agree wit hDTN on this one! sure, some of these abilities have been seen before, but they were not '''limit breaks'''! they were optional combo finishers, limits, and opponents abilities/sleights!

I think that this is a fine article, that should be kept like it is, but not merged into [[Limit]]!}}
{{DTN|time=20:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)|happytext=Thanks Xiggie! Ah yes, the joy that 10 minutes of Paint.NET can bring through an image. :P Also, good point on the previous appearances of some of these abilities.}}

:Trinity Limit is one of Sora's Limits in KH2. The same ability appears in KH1, with different mechanics, but is still obviously a limit. During all of those ars arcanum, strike raid, etc. abilities, Sora cannot be harmed (except in CoM if the attack is broken).
:Again, every character who we've had a "limit" for has the same "limit break" (except for Riku). This is a good hint that they're the same basic thing, with tweaked gameplay mechanics.
:Really, all of this "great difference" could be covered by simply having three sections at the lead explaining the varying mechanics of limits in KH, KHCoM (Trinity Limit only, I believe), KH2, and KHDays, and ''then'' we have the list of the different limits throughout the games. Right now, half of this article is spent admitting that yes, most of these limit breaks already appeared in other games.
::Ragnarok is the same. Fantasia and Teamwork are the same, I believe, and Pearl is also the same as what Mickey had in KH2, I believe. As for "only half of them being unoriginal"....that's ''exactly'' my point. Much too many of them are holdovers from the Limit system for it to be considered something entirely unique.
::Sorry, I was wrong about Limit Form then.
::Your Sephiroth and Hades Cup examples are, frankly, terrible as analogies, as that has nothing to do with gameplay mechanics. Trinity Limit did not remain the same between KH and CoM, as in CoM it did not deplete the MP gauge, and you could reuse it or any other ability immediately. My point is that Limits and Limit Breaks are the same basic things - super attacks that can only be used in infrequent situations. This is the same thing in the Final Fantasy series - in FF7, Limit Breaks must be built up through taking damage, in FF8, they are random at lower health, and in FF10, they build up through attacking. However, no one would be silly enough to claim that they are entirely original concepts - they're simply mechanic tweaks of what we all recognize is the same concept.
::I really have trouble seeing how you consider the Limit page "too crowded". "Half of the Limit Breaks" are identical and would be redundant, and the page is one of the shorter pages we have on the wiki that isn't a stub. If anything, a concerted effort to clean it up would result in an even shorter page.
::"Limit Break" is not a "new battle technique". It's a very slight tweak to how the battle system handles super-attacks.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 20:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually you could get hurt while using ragnorak, ars arcanum, strike raid, and sonic blade in kingdom hearts 2 final mix. Its just for ragnorak and ars arcanum, you can't get hurt during the part of the attack which activates when you activate it. But once that part is over, you can be hurt after that though it is usually hard to get hit during that time. For strike raid and sonic blade, you can still be hurt when you're about to attack again but haven't yet.

Anyways Limits can be used in frequent situation, but not limit breaks. Like I said before, Limits can be used anytime in battle as long as Sora has MP, making it usable in any battle situation. Even if you are alone you can still use trinity limit alone, it'll just be weaker.  You can't compare limit breaks from kingdom hearts 358/2 days to ones like final fantasy 7. In final fantasy 7, they're just when you are at low HP. But when you can use limit breaks in kingdom hearts 358/2 days depends where the yellow bar is. You could have about half your hp left but still use it as long as the yellow bar reached up there.

I know about half of the limit breaks are related to some limits or special attacks, but they are being used differently, for example: Mickey's pearl attack in kh2 is shooting out a ball of light that can't be charged. Mickey's pearl limit break makes a beam of light hit the enemy and can still be charged to make it stronger. They may have the same name and are used by the same person, but they do different things. Same for sora's ragnorak and other people's  attacks like donald's or goofy's.
--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 22:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
:::...for the love of- people, when I say "the game mechanics have been slightly tweaked", is no one hearing that? Seriously, this is not an "entirely new feature, the likes of which we have never seen before" as some of you seem to be claiming. It's a ''minor tweak'' to the system we had in previous games, just like how in KH, Trinity Limit was a contextual ability, while in KH2, it could be activated whenever Sora had full MP. ''This does not change the fact that the ability is, in essence, a "Super-attack"''. The fact that you guys are going out of your way to say "It's impossible to compare the "Limit Break" in Days to the "Limit Break" in FF7 because they activate at different gauge levels"...that's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone can recognize that the concept in Days is ''clearly'' derived from the same concept we had in KH2 and most of the Final Fantasy games. I mean, you guys don't really think Nomura just suddenly said to everyone during Days' Development, "Oh my god, guys, I've got this crazy idea! What if we make every character have a unique, super-strong attack when they meet certain conditions? This is awesome, why hasn't anyone thought of this before?!"
:::Similarly, in KH1, new Item Synthesis unlocked as you made all the items available, while in KH2, it unlocked as you found recipe items or leveled the Moogle. '''It's still Item Synthesis'''.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
::::EDIT: For Strike Raid, Ars Arcanum, and the rest - I've used them every time I've fought Sephiroth, sitting there with him slashing me, and I ''never'' took damage until the ability deactivated.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I have gotten hurt before using ragnorak. I was up against Xemnas data battle (first battle) and he was using his attack where he was slashing me like crazy and he wouldn't stagger from damage (the screen was slightly darker.) Anyway i was in limit form, used ragnorak, hit him with all the slashes, but when sora was charging the ball of light i got hit and it deactivated ragnorak. something like that also happened when i was against Terra. I was just using sonic blade against him while he going to hit me with his ground combo (the one ending with the drill). Reason i used it was to heal me since he was chasing me and i had 1 hp left. I activated it and managed to hit him and got healed a bit, but then when i was about to press triangle again his drill got me and i got hurt. You can check limit form page to make sure. And against Sephiroth, he will react to hits, how can he be slashing you if you already hit him. Even if he began to slash again, you probably would hit him again with that attack unless it was already over, where you would take damage unless you started another special attack from limit form.
--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 03:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not sure how Limit Form works in KH2FM, but in KH1, the situation is exactly as I described it. However, anything with triangle - that means the previous attack ended, and you have to activate the next one. As such, it seems likely that's why you got hit.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I thought you were talking about KH2FM. Sorry about the misinterpretation. --[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 04:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh and i wonder........ '''WHY''' are we discussing about whether the limit break page should be combined with the limits page here? Didn't it say to discuss where it shows a link in the article part of the page. Oh well, it works fine here too. --[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 04:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
== Hmm... ==

{{Dreambend5-Mischief| Who found out about the names of the limit breaks, out of curiosity?}}
{{KrytenKoro|They are listed on the official website, and in the ultimania. All of them are confirmed.}}

== Hear this out... ==

{{EO|time=04:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)|talktext=While I doubt I have any place in this arguement, my opinion, I feel, should be heard. I personally feel that Limits and Limit Breaks are two different things. While it could be merged, as "Limit Break" can be shortened to "Limit", it should remain separate for the following :

1. Limit Breaks are executed in an entirely different way
2. They only appear in 1 KH Game
3. They do not use the Limit Gauge

While these reasons seem quite poor...I can't quite write everything I think about clearly... they are in fact believable.}}
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==Untitled==
 Great page, whoever did this. I could never do this. I hope this page doesn't get combined with limits.--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 05:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 54: / Line 53: @@
 Oh and i wonder........ '''WHY''' are we discussing about whether the limit break page should be combined with the limits page here? Didn't it say to discuss where it shows a link in the article part of the page. Oh well, it works fine here too. --[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 04:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
-If limit breaks were combined with limits, wouldn't it be very crowded. The contents table (in the beginning) would be very long and adding limit breaks to the limit page would almost double the size of the limit page. I don't want people having to look at such a long page for just special attacks. For like characters it would make sense for it to be long because characters have journal entries, their place in the storyline, ect. But for limit page to be as long as a character's page is quite unusual and weird.--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 00:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 == Hmm... ==
 {{Dreambend5-Mischief| Who found out about the names of the limit breaks, out of curiosity?}}
 {{KrytenKoro|They are listed on the official website, and in the ultimania. All of them are confirmed.}}
-Even Pearl and such. The japanese name is listed as Holy and the english version isn't out yet, so why is it listed as Pearl? [[User:Lego3400|Lego3400]] 02:42, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 == Hear this out... ==
@@ Line 73: / Line 67: @@
 While these reasons seem quite poor...I can't quite write everything I think about clearly... they are in fact believable.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|1) When the correct bar is in the correct state, the player can press a button to begin a super-attack. That is true for KH1, KH2, and Days.<br>
-) This is circular reasoning.<br>
-) The limit gauge in KH2 merely displays the time left in the limit. This functionality is very similar to how the Final Limit function is described.
-}}
-{{EO|time=09:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)|text=I already know that. And now that I think it over, they should be on the same page, as Limits are called Limit Breaks in games like Final Fantasy, and that is where these ideas came from. Limit Breaks are merely Limits for Organization XIII, etc.}}
-== Images... ==
-{{EO|time=11:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)|hooded=The Wiki has acquired images of some of the Limit Breaks. The page looks a bit bare, yet I am concerned that the page would look to crammed...}}
-{{DTN|time=07:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)|text=They would be even more crammed on the Limit page with the other Limits. I'm in the process of downloading/uploading videos of the Limit Breaks to the Wiki, so don't worry about images.}}
-{{EO|time=15:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)|happytext=Very well. I concur.}}
-== Merge Template ==
-Shouldn't we remove the Merge Template? No one is discussing about this anymore. I think it's settled that it will NOT be merged with limits. I'm only typing this to make sure nobody else wants to keep discussing whether it should be merged. Also i don't want people complaining to me about how i removed the merge template without permission.--[[User:Xsonicdragon|Xsonicdragon]] 03:11, September 9, 2009 (UTC)
-:I agree; if nobody replies by tomorrow, then I shall remove it. --[[User:DoorToNothing|<span style="color:navy ;">'''Door'''</span>]][[User:DoorToNothing|<span style="color:dimgray ;">'''To'''</span>]][[User talk:DoorToNothing|<span style="color:darkslategray ;">'''Nothing'''</span>]] 02:46, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
-== Fix this, ==
-There is no such thing as 'Dual-Wielding'. The ability to use multiple Keyblades at once is called SYNC-BLADE.
-:Dual-Wield is the official name for this character, straight from the Ultimania.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 20:15, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
-== The King ==
-Does anyone know what the actual timing is to get the balls to fire? I can get it charged up to its second state in Final Limit, and I get the "three beams surrounding one beam" that is mentioned as the correct timing for normal limit (which I can't get to ''happen'' in normal limit), and there ''appears'' to be balls flying out, but that happens no matter how I time it. Also, the balls fly in every direction, not just two. There ''does'' appear to be some sort of orange fiery eyes appearing behind Mickey that oscillate, but they don't appear to effect the attack if I time with them.
-So
-#The multiple pillars only happens for me in normal limit
-#Something very close to the balls shown in the image happens ''no matter what'' in final limit if charged twice, but isn't dependent on timing and has more than two balls.
-I don't want to correct this on the page yet, though, because I am notoriously bad at combat mechanics such as this, and I have no idea if I'm actually correct, or just bad.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 22:00, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
-== Abilities and things ==
-This page needs to be divided into a list of Limit Breaks, and sections on things that modify the limit break: The Limit Pass, the options in Mission Mode, the Extreme Ring, and the Limit Boost and Final Limit abilities.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 22:02, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
-== Abilities and things ==
-This page needs to be divided into a list of Limit Breaks, and sections on things that modify the limit break: The Limit Pass, the options in Mission Mode, the Extreme Ring (only a sentence-long mention on the mechanics, not the actual stats), and the Limit Boost and Final Limit abilities.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 22:02, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
-== Limit Break Video ==
-Why doesn't anybody try to upload Limit Break's video? Maybe somebody should upload it from the JP offical site. Cococrash11
-== Triva worth noting or just stuff better left out? ==
-Just a few things seemed to be missing from some of the limits though
-that is likely because it wasn't known at the time.
--Riku's final limit is identical to shape and stature as the command style
-blade charge from BBS, infact I'd say it was blade charge if it wasn't made of darkness.
-Honestly if you look at the swords from Master Hearts there is no similarity between them
-and Riku's final limit except they are both big swords.
--Roxas's limit event horizon is identical to one of Ven's commands. Ven's holy
-spell and holy rise spell is nearly the same as Roxas's final limit with the beams
-and everything the only difference being the symbol at the top.
-Really probably just pointless stuff but I thought it was worth posting.
---[[Special:Contributions/24.7.239.218|24.7.239.218]] 04:00, July 8, 2010 (UTC)