Editing Talk:Light & Darkness

=="Don't you get them at the same time?"==
Yes, both are obtained after the encounter wih Roxas.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 01:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
:this didnt work for me unyil i actually left the world.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:10, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
:also it still replaces all nonfinal forms with antiform. Does it actually modiy the odds for earning final form at all? If not, it seems like it just replaces valor thru master with anti.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
::I experienced that, as well. I only managed to get Final Form after equipping a different Keyblade, and I believe I was in Timeless River or Beast's Castle... - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 17:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Probably warrants a mention that you need to have 5 Drive Gauges (i.e a full Drive meter) for Final Form to activate for the first time, otherwise you will solely enter Antiform when this ability is equipped. <span style="background-color: #060505; padding:3px; border-top-left-radius:8px; border-top-right-radius:8px; border-bottom-right-radius:8px; border-bottom-left-radius:8px; color: #47c9ff">'''[[User:Eden|<font color="47c9ff">Eden</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Eden|<font color="47c9ff">t</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Eden|<font color="47c9ff">c</font>]]</sup>'''</span> 01:07, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

== Not a bug? ==

I'm going to need some clarification on this, since I tried ~60 times as soon as I got the Keyblade, without success, and got it within two tries as soon as I left the world. 60+ is not a simple bad RNG. Other players have also reported that they were unable to unlock it by simply going through Betwixt & Between, so this isn't just really bad luck for one player.

Can you clarify what you did between getting the Keyblade and Final Form? Did you have the Keyblade equipped after beating Roxas, and when you got the Form? Did you ever go to the World Map and return to TWTNW without choosing a separate world?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:12, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
:AFAIK, this is completely random, but random appearances of Final Form can screw the flying fish out of everyone. In my first try, I got Two Become One, equipped it immediately after taking out Roxas, and got Final Form on the first try. In The World that Never Was, no less. No world map, nothing. Just immediately saved at The Brink of Despair, went back to Memory's Skyscraper, and voilà. But then I forgot to save.

:In my second try, I had to try six times with the same Keyblade after taking out Roxas, before I managed to trigger Final Form. And I tried this in Agrabah. In both cases, my Drive Gauge was at 5 when full. I think it's purely up to hard frickin luck. You could get it on your first try, or you could get it a millennium later, to put it simply. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 02:16, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
::Did you save after getting it, turn the system off, anything? Did you ever switch keyblades after equipping TBO? What version of the game/language/system where you playing on? I have a backup save before I got Final Form, and I still can't get it without leaving the world.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:27, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
I did save after getting TBO, just once, but didn't remember to save when I got Final Form on the first try. This is a preordered EU version on a PS3 Super Slim. Now, when I did this in Agrabah, I saved where I needed to, i.e. when I got a crap tonne of synthesis items I felt I needed. Trouble is, I don't remember if I saved at all for the second try, and if I did, how many times I did this... '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 08:38, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: Forgot to mention Keyblades. I initially had Decisive Pumpkin. But then I didn't initiate any battles with it after defeating Roxas. At the Brink of Despair, I switched my Keyblades around until I equipped TBO as my main weapon, for the purposes of getting Final Form. I only switched it out as soon as I got Final Form. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 08:40, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
::When you saved after getting TBO, did you turn the game off?
::Did you leave the room with the DP? I ''immediately'' equipped TBO, and couldn't get Final Form to activate for over 60~ tries. With the programmed in-odds of unlocking Final Form, that's approaching lottery-winning odds, so there's a bug ''somewhere'', it just might not be universal across systems.
:Can you clarify exactly which version of the game you were playing, your ''exact'' actions after getting the blade?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:15, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

EU version, PS3. I left the room with DP, saved at the Brink of Despair, handed in all my synthesis items, switched Keyblade to TBO, saved, went back to Memory's Skyscraper, used Master Form when some Heartless appeared, and got into Final Form straightaway.

I also remember doing the exact same thing as you did many years ago in the PS2 Japanese Final Mix, and managed to trigger it after a few tries. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 14:31, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
::So, theory -- supposing the RNG is in some way refreshed by going from one room to another, perhaps equipping the TBO freezes the RNG somehow? So, if you immediately equip the TBO and have a "bad" RNG, you'll never get Final Form, but as long as you equip something else while moving between rooms, the RNG will be refreshed correctly?
::It's a ''lot'' of assumptions, but it would explain what's going on. I'll test it on my backup save file, see if it works.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:12, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
This is plausible... Because if this is happening to a lot of players, and not just you, then I have a feeling that TBO comes with a buggered-up Light & Darkness ability i.e. at times, the RNG can just not work. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 18:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
::It at least happened to the guy who added the bit about Betwixt and Between not being a solution.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:29, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
:A new claim from the TBO page:
::''"The '''Two Become One''' is a [[Keychain]] for [[Kingdom Key|Sora's, Roxas's, and Xion's Keyblades]] that was introduced in ''[[Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix]]''. The Two Become One represents [[Roxas]], as borne out by its obtainment, appearance, and ability, [[Light & Dark]], which causes the activation of any Drive form during battle to put Sora in either [[AntiForm|Anti]] or [[Final Form]]. If a drive form is activated outside of battle, this effect does not occur and Sora will take the form you chose. "''
:{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

That is actually true, at least for me; I have tried and tested it. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#222222">TRS</font>]][[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#444444">NX</font>]]''' 09:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know who made this "L&D doesn't work until you leave the world" claim, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8RdgZdwmko but it works exactly as intended in my copy] (PAL Australian) while staying in TWTNW the whole time. [[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]] ''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]'' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 15:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
:I am one of the two people who made the claim. Perhaps my RNG got jammed, but I was totally unable to get Final Form with it until leaving the world in the NA copy.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
::Turns out I no longer have the save file. If someone can confirm this works on NA, I'll write off my experience as a bad fluke.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
:::For posterity: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8RdgZdwmko]. Turns out I just had amazingly shitty luck.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:06, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

== Official descriptions ==

http://kh13.com/forum/uploads/gallery/album_297/gallery_6_297_1401809051_60272.jpg

and

http://kh13.com/forum/uploads/gallery/album_297/gallery_6_297_1401808993_60251.jpg

If someone wants to convert them to copy-pastable text, I'd be happy to translate them, but too busy to do the converting myself.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

:Using a translate app on my phone to look at the table in the lower-left, it says that the odds of entering Final Form instead of AntiForm are different between the original release and Final Mix. In the original the odds of Final Form are 25%, 50%, then 100% from the 3rd time on, but in Final Mix the odds are 3%, 9%, 27%, and then 75%. One of the asterisks to the side also seems to say that it isn't possible for Final Form to trigger unless you have at least 5 Drive Gauge bars (the app is really confused, not full sure), but even if that ''is'' what it says, that's a moot point because it's impossible to not have 5 bars by the time you get to TWTNW, you'll have to have beaten Barbossa and the Hostile Program at the least.

== Article is Incorrect ==

I have the Two Become One equipped as my primary Keyblade in II.5, and while I do indeed have a higher chance of entering Anti-Form, I am able to enter other forms perfectly normally. I have not yet unlocked Final Form, note. [[Special:Contributions/67.70.64.9|67.70.64.9]] 22:31, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
:We're going to need some video proof of that.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:06, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
::Looking at the article, I notice my error. I have been entering Drive Forms immediately upon enemies appearing, but before I'm technically "in combat" (interface changes, allies draw weapons, etc), so I guess the effect hasn't been technically active. My apologies. [[Special:Contributions/67.70.64.9|67.70.64.9]] 00:49, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

== Another "Final Form Won't Trigger" topic ==

I've shifted into Wisdom Form with TBO equipped, and Final Form has yet to trigger. I figured I'd trigger it a few times before fighting Xigbar to lower the odds of it happening in the fight, it didn't happen then or during the fight. I proceeded to Naught's Skyway, activating a form on each individual encounter the way up, and no Final Form. And then after reaching the Hall of Empty Melodies, I fought my way back to the Brink of Despair and then back to the HoEM, and ''still'' no Final Form. I am 100% sure I'm in-combat when I'm activating my forms (I wait for my party members to cry out so I know they're attacking or being attacked), and I don't have it already. Final Form is not happening. For the record, I'm playing the PS5 collection of the whole series except MoM, and I haven't left TWTNW since entering. 

Also, unsure if its related to TBO/L&D, or Antiform, but equipping TBO in the final battle on a previous playthrough, I was able to enter Limit Form normally. This one at least [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO8p_uDCjKI&t=11450s I have video proof of].
[[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 12:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 If someone wants to convert them to copy-pastable text, I'd be happy to translate them, but too busy to do the converting myself.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
-:Using a translate app on my phone to look at the table in the lower-left in the second scan, it says that the odds of entering Final Form instead of AntiForm are different between the original release and Final Mix. In the original the odds of Final Form are 25%, 50%, then 100% from the 3rd time on, but in Final Mix the odds are 3%, 9%, 27%, and then 75%. One of the asterisks to the side also seems to say that it isn't possible for Final Form to trigger unless you have at least 5 Drive Gauge bars (the app is really confused, not full sure), but even if that ''is'' what it says, that's a moot point because it's impossible to not have 5 bars by the time you get to TWTNW, you'll have to have beaten Barbossa and the Hostile Program at the least. [[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 12:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
+:Using a translate app on my phone to look at the table in the lower-left, it says that the odds of entering Final Form instead of AntiForm are different between the original release and Final Mix. In the original the odds of Final Form are 25%, 50%, then 100% from the 3rd time on, but in Final Mix the odds are 3%, 9%, 27%, and then 75%. One of the asterisks to the side also seems to say that it isn't possible for Final Form to trigger unless you have at least 5 Drive Gauge bars (the app is really confused, not full sure), but even if that ''is'' what it says, that's a moot point because it's impossible to not have 5 bars by the time you get to TWTNW, you'll have to have beaten Barbossa and the Hostile Program at the least.
-::It probably means you need at least 5 full gauges, not 5 gauges in total, because like you said, it is impossible to have fewer than 5. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 == Article is Incorrect ==
@@ Line 66: / Line 65: @@
 Also, unsure if its related to TBO/L&D, or Antiform, but equipping TBO in the final battle on a previous playthrough, I was able to enter Limit Form normally. This one at least [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO8p_uDCjKI&t=11450s I have video proof of].
 [[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 12:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
-:FINALLY got it on my next attempt, ironically after translating the above scans. I guess the RNG just hates me. I edited the Antiform page accordingly already, so yeah, there's that explained; in the Final Mix+ versions, the odds of Final Form triggering in place of Antiform are only 75% at max. [[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 12:57, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
-::I'm guessing you can activate Limit Form during the final battle because you don't have two party members. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
-:::I meant that with TBO equipped in the final battle, I entered Limit Form instead of going into Antiform. [[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 19:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
-::::And I meant that since you don't have two party members, you can't activate Final Form, so the ability doesn't work. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 22:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
-:::::Ah, okay, I misunderstood. Tested and yup, seems so - I went into Luxord and Roxas's Data battles and Limit Form triggers, and in Saix's I went into both Limit and Valor with Donald KO'd, and they worked normally too. [[Special:Contributions/65.95.36.170|65.95.36.170]] 18:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)