Editing Talk:Larxene

==Article Issues==
A few things on this article:

#Vexen had originally conspired with Marluxia and Larxene, though he was acting as a spy for Zexion and the Org. Marluxia refers to Vexen as a traitor even.
#There is no reason to remove the details about Sora being a part in Marluxia's plot - they give context for the unusual nature of Marluxia's order to Vexen.
#The concern over Vexen was that he was going to tell Sora about "the other side" and Roxas - this was done for the Organization's purposes.

So, why the reverting of these accurate statements? All the edits seem to do is subtract detail. [[User:Scottch|Scottch]] 15:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
*Please see this talk page before continuing to revert without comment. [[User:Scottch|Scottch]] 15:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

#His first appearance implies no such thing, simply that he's a recluse scientist who decided to lend his hand to test Riku Replica. None of his other appearances state such a thing either. "Traitor" is a reference to the fact that Vexen went against Marluxia's and thus Organization XIII's will, not because of some betrayal to the conspiracy.
#Look at the sentence. "They decide to order him to kill Sora by threatening to tell "the Superior" of the failure of the Riku Replica, even Sora's death that would ruin their plans to use him against the Organization's head members." It makes no sense, and it's not unusual with the fact that they didn't expect Vexen to succeed.
#Yes, the inital concern was over Roxas' existence. But Vexen died revealing Marluxia's plan. Read the script. Also, please prove that it was for the Organization's purposes. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 15:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


That makes no sense. Marluxia wouldn't consider him a traitor to the Organization because he ''wouldn't'' join Marluxia in betraying the organization. That's circular - the "traitor" remark is certainly as a traitor to Marluzia, not the Organization. The second sentence is missing a word and I'll fix that, but the point isn't that their orders to Vexen made sense - the point of it being against their real ends to eliminate Sora is that it caused Vexen confusion - just a contextual detail. It's nothing big, but there's no reason to leave it out either. As for Vexen's last words - it should be obvious it was for the Organization, because it was to reveal the traitors. I'll combine the wordings to reduce the confusion. [[User:Scottch|Scottch]] 16:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

== Weapon ==

What are everyone's thoughts on what Larxene's weapon is?

It's called knives officially I believe... as far as I know the "kunai" reference is just a comparison to kunai made by fans. Much like calling Xemnas' blades "lightsabers" or Zexion's weapon a dictionary. It seems like we should just go with what's official... and mention that they are often called kunai by fans? How does that sound? '''''[[User:Scottch|<span style="color:#00cccc">Scott</span>]][[User talk:Scottch|<span style="color:#ff9900">ch</span>]]''''' 04:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

:Well many call it a Kunai due to its design. Plus the way Larxene uses them is identical to ninja using the kunai as a throwing weapon. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kunai05.jpg pic of Kunai] [[User:Fractyl2|Fractyl]]
::It may "officially" knives, but if we did everything the "official way" many articles would come into question, the fact is that her weapons are 100% kunai, they are between her fingers and thrown, knives are generally held one-at-a-time, by hand and may be thrown.[[User:Therequiembellishere|Therequiembellishere]] 21:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Are we changing it or not?[[User:Therequiembellishere|Therequiembellishere]] 05:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
::::What exactly do you mean "many articles would come into question"? How could any articles about fictional people come into question by using the people who created them as the official word? I'm not seeing anything other than what some fans think her weapons look like to support this, and that's not really enough to contradict the people who designed her as a character. Besides, she's not the only character with an odd weapon name. Does [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Chieftain-1.jpg this] look like Saïx's weapon to you? Probably not, but it's still a claymore, and it wouldn't make it smart to change his weapon to "club" or something just because it makes more sense to me. '''''[[User:Scottch|<span style="color:#00cccc">Scott</span>]][[User talk:Scottch|<span style="color:#ff9900">ch</span>]]''''' 12:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, yes. [[User:Therequiembellishere|Therequiembellishere]] 06:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
:Fractyl, did you actually read the Wikipedia article you got that picture from? That isn't a real kunai, it's just what most people picture when they think of a kunai. Also they were ''not'' commonly used as throwing weapons. As for the weapon type thing, if they were officially referred to as knives, call them knives. If it was kunai, call them kunai. Same with Saïx's sword; if it was officially called something other than a claymore, then that's whatwe should call it. [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 18:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Axel?? ==

''She seems to be on good terms with Axel, often seen touching and even flirting with him in the new Re:CoM cutscenes. This has led some fans to believe there is more to their relationship.'' shouldn't be Marluxia instead of Axel? I don't know, I haven't played the game but it doesn't sound correct. [[User:Pablo618|Pablo618]] 15:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:Nah, it was Axel. Marluxia was her boss, and Axel and her were more on the same level. Furthermore, Marluxia doesn't make much of an appearance in the middle of the game.[[User:XienZo|XienZo]] 02:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::I always thought Larxene was Marluxia's bitch -.- [[User:Pablo618|Pablo618]] 01:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, she COULD be, but given that she's Larxene... *cough*
but anyway, the cutscenes are of her flirting with Axel[[User:XienZo|XienZo]] 02:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::::the hooker of the Org. LOL [[User:Pablo618|Pablo618]] 03:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

{{TNE|text=I still can't bring myself to think that a sadist like Larxene would '''actually''' have feelings for Axel....}}

Actually, she doesn't have any feeling ^^

I don't get how someone can think that there's something between Axel and Larxene. She's just taunting him like she does with everyone in those cutscenes! That wasn't serious flirting! [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 04:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)




{{TNE|blahtext=It's pretty obvious that Larxene is a full-blooded Nobody (that was just a figure of speech, anyway). Childish demeanour, sadistic traits, excessive laughing. How can she and Axel ever click...}}

{{Flashpenny | I always thought they were a bit of an item. Sadism vs. sarcasm could go into a bit of a romance and remember, CoM came before KHII where we learned that the Organization are emotionless. Of course when Larxene called Axel a jerk I wasn't that surprised.}}

{{NinjaSheik|text=If you guys ever read the novel, Larxene told Marluxia she doesn't want a heart back. A heart brings pain. I always thought something happened to Larxene, like she used to have a boyfriend. I also thought she might've flirted with Axel, well...Just to have fun. It's obvious that she flirted with him in CoM. Still, I want really see them together besides just flirting. I dunno...Kinda hard to explain.}}
{{Flashpenny | *raise eyebrow* There's actually a novel on KH?}}

Think she means the manga for it, which has its own, separate canon. [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 01:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:No, there are actual novelizations. I don't think many of them are in English yet, however.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 07:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
{{Firaga44|happy=i should read that tonight but before i might want to read the first one}}

Haha I'm thinking that her flirting with with Axel has less to do with emotion (seeing as how she has none) and more a function of physical attraction, which would still be in affect seeing as how physical attraction is a function of the body and not the heart, and she does have a body, obviously. [[User:Axel&#39;s Sentiment|Axel&#39;s Sentiment]] 19:31, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
:She certainly does.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 21:52, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

== 358/2 Days Video ==
Where is this supposed video of Larxene laughing at Xion's introduction?[[User:DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS|DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS]] 18:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d3qWXs7oWU at 0:41. Of course, thats only a split second, but these scenes are recycled in trailers and its possible a later/previous trailer had the same scene held longer so we could actually identify what their reactions were. [[User:XienZo|XienZo]] 18:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Larxene didn't laugh...all I saw was the org. watching her. [[User:DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS|DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS]] 21:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
:It could have been another trailer with the same scene with more focus on their reactions. I believe some blog said Larxene was laughing when Xion appeared. [[User:XienZo|XienZo]] 21:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Where's the blog?[[User:DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS|DiSlOcAtOr ChRiS]] 22:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
:Here's the KHvid's translation of the blog: http://www.kh-vids.net/showthread.php?t=28211 and the line is here:
o The expressions of the Org. members varies from each member. Vexen and Larxene laugh. Marluxia and Leaxus express a little anger through their eyebrows. (Tomo's note: Remember, Org. members can only fake emotion.)
Vexen then starts to move. (FF&KH notes that his chair seemed to be awfully low.)
Axel moved his hand to his mouth. [[User:XienZo|XienZo]] 23:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

== Videos ==

Could we please replace the videos with ones that showcase her abilities, and one for each battle? The ones we have now just show Sora repeatedly breaking her combos, which isn't very informative.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>survived intact.</small>]] 13:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

== Larxene's Weapon ==

its not Knive's it a kunai if you look at your kunai and knive. kunai are taller then knives so can someone plz edit this and lock the page from being editing thank you
[[Special:Contributions/72.208.118.127|72.208.118.127]] 02:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Eliskuya
:...A kunai is just one type of knife. And knives can be a foot long, so don't tell me a kunai is always longer than a knife. Besides, I guess you're going to have to tell Tetsuya Nomura he's ''wrong'' for calling them knives, since it's only the word used to referred to them in the KH2 Ultimania.--[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 06:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

dose ninja's use knife's no! they use kunai. its not in the book so I am going changed it[[Special:Contributions/72.208.118.127|72.208.118.127]] 17:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
:Wow...you really know jack squat about ninjas. I'm guessing your basing your loud objection on the Naruto episodes you've watched?[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>survived intact.</small>]] 18:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

{{TNE|text=Guys, lemme resolve the conflict here. Both of you are right in saying what you guys had to say (only, tone it down a little, will you ?). Urutapu was right in saying that those are knives because of their length. Eliskuya was right in saying they were kunais because of the way Larxene throws them (i.e. placing them between her fingers).

Just whatever it is, let's follow what Nomura had to say, okay ? If he '''does''' change the definition of Larxene's weapons for 358/2 Days we'll switch accordingly.}}

how the heck dose a ninja use knife. its dumb they use kunai's not knife I hope someone gets this into their head[[Special:Contributions/72.208.118.127|72.208.118.127]] 02:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

@Troisnyxetienne: Kunai aren't held between the fingers, though, they're too thick. They're one-per-hand sort of weapons, for stabbing, not slashing. Anime, manga, and games exaggerate their usefulness as a throwing weapon, but even in fiction they're almost never used for slashing.—[[User:Urutapu|Urutapu]] 02:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

you don't know nothing about ninja's Urutapu. anyway Troisnyextinne. I can get on my page now. I well update the picture of xigbar. on my page talk to you soon amiga[[Special:Contributions/72.208.118.127|72.208.118.127]] 02:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

{{BebopKate|text=Fun fact: {{w|Kunai|Kunai are actually gardening trowels}}.

Seriously, her weapons look like they could be very-stylized knives or very-stylized kunai.  I think you could safely call them either in this case, even if Nomura didn't exactly say the word "kunai".  Besides, if you bring those into the real world, they're going to be pretty hard to use as either anyway ("Let me grab my...OW!  ''All'' the ends are pointy!")

Come on guys, don't make me change the official wiki name to "Larxene's Awesome Sharp Pointy Electric Weapons of Awesomeness".}}

o_O; BK you are silly! I never seen ninja's use knives before this is dumb. I never seen something like this. anyway off topic amigos
::[http://web-japan.org/museum/others/ninja/ninja02/tools06_2.html These are kunai. They're pretty damn big.]
::"As with the shuriken and ninjutsu, '''the exaggeration persistent in ninja myths played a large role in creating the current pop culture image of kunai.''' In the mythology of ninja, the '''kunai is commonly portrayed to be a Japanese knife''' that is used for throwing as well as stabbing."
::"As a weapon it is larger and heavier than a shuriken, and with the grip could also be used in hand to hand combat more readily than a shuriken."
::"In addition, it could be used for climbing, as either a kind of grappling hook, or a piton.[1]"
::This is what qualifies as a knife:
:::"A knife is a handheld sharp-edged instrument consisting of a handle attached to a blade that is used for cutting. Knives were used at least two-and-a-half million years ago, as evidenced by the Oldowan tools. [1][2]"
:{{w|Stiletto|This is what Larxene uses}}.
::From the above, I'm pretty sure you've never seen an actual ninja using a kunai, either, at least nothing like the type you see in Naruto, or like the knives Larxene uses. Kunai are also ''completely impossible'' to hold between the fingers like Larxene does, unlike Stilletos, which are a kind of '''knife''' virtually identical to the Shock Charms. (what's your hangup with ninjas, anyway? People only think she's like one because they think her weapon's are kunai, so it's circular reasoning)

{{XNamineX|text=Will everyone stop talking about this? Please?? There was no need to go into all thi technical talk about size and use. Some of the Organization members' weapons are nothing like their real world counterparts. Axel's chakrams are absolutly nothing like real chakrams and Saïx's claymore has some extreme diffrences from real claymores as well. The point is, there's no point in this conversation since Nomura doesn't even follow the technicallities of their weapons anyway. So just keep it as "knives" because that what it says in the Ultimania and that's the closest thing we have to official right now, OK?}}

{{TNE|text=If you insist. Well, I wasn't even close to editing anything.}}

{{BebopKate|text=Nicely convincing argument.  Knives it is, then.}}

WAIT! It's not over yet because I read the link that BebopKate posted and it says that Larxene uses kunai. Really. Just scroll down the page and read it. --[[User:ZexionFan321|ZexionFan321]] 22:13, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
:It is ''completely and totally over''. Every official source calls her weapons knives.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 01:13, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

== Attacks ==

{{Gohantalk|time=12:30|text=Does anyone know were to get the Attacks for the rest of Organization 13?}}
::The named ones are from CoM, and then there are semi-named ones from the Bradygames and Ultimania guides.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>survived intact.</small>]] 17:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

==Quotes Section==
{{Xiggie|text=Does anyone else agree that Larxenes quote section has gotten '''way''' out of hand! they're over 30 !!!

There is no need to quote almost every line she speaks!

I say we bring them down to, say, 20 tops!

anyone agree?}}

{{XNamineX|text=I agree 100% I think we should get it down to 15 or even around 10. I'll do it now.}}

{{Xiggie|takk=phew, It's a relief to see that there're only 14 now :P

we'd better watch out for any users (or anonymous IPs) who might add it again!}}

I have a question: What happened to Larxene's pic from 358/2 days?

==High Quality Days Image==
{{Guardian Soul|text=The site for 358/2 Days has been updated with a high-quality image of Larxene, and Lexaeus as well.  Just thought I'd get that out there for anyone who wants to get the renders.}}
There are also high quality images of Xaldin, Luxord and a new one of Axel with his chakrams too. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice.

{{Bowser the Second|text=I've uploaded the Larxene one and I'll do Luxord later, but the Xaldin and Lexaeus ones are cut off. Also, I propose we use this new render as the main picture for the page because the current one only shows her face from side on.}}

just do it you fool.

{{Guardian Soul|text=I say we use all of the Days versions because they look better, and it could be seen as a way to celebrate Days on the Wiki.}}

{{Bowser the Second|text=We're already using Roxas' Days artwork for his page, so why not then?.}}

{{Guardian Soul|text=Yup, it's all good.  Also, that Axel render could be cut out too.  We have a Days one, but not the one where he's holding his chakrams.}}

{{Bowser the Second|text=I did that a while ago [[File: Axel KHD.png|150px]]}}

{{Guardian Soul|text=Oh, lovely.}}

Cool. Just try to get Xaldin and Lexaeus, please. BTW, It is possible to get a full render of Lexaeus. Get the site at full screen. Xaldin will use some work though, as you will tru to get a full render of him with his six ginsu lances.

== Removed from page ==

Needs to be rewritten to sound professional and like the rest of the page


In this, found by [[Xigbar]], Larxene joined [[Organization XIII]] as its twelfth, and only, female member. Shortly afterwards, she spoke to and had a conversation with Axel, twirling around and asking him how her new Organization outfit looked on her quite randomly. Probably the first show of her teasing devices with him that we see in [[Chain of Memories]]. Axel didn't answer, and found the question a hassle, but did reveal in his thoughts that the uniforms are form-fitting: when worn, it transitions into your size. So it should fit perfectly. In a few more words of exchange, she asks him quite bluntly, and haughtily, whether it was unsatisfying to speak to her, as he listed off other people she could talk to that were "young" and not "old men" (this included [[Demyx]], [[Marluxia]], [[Zexion]], and [[Saïx]]). This was a response to the explanation she gave as to why she was conversing with him in the first place, when he had asked why she was speaking to him politely. This was, for the most part, because he didn't understand what was her reason for starting up a discussion, that she changed her excuses for doing so, and that the topic itself was quite pointless. He did reply to her inquiry honestly, nonetheless, saying that it wasn't unsatisfying, but that it was just not anything. After a pause, she then changes the subject and complains quietly how the castle is boring, and while agreeing with her, Axel chose not to voice it out. Soon, with Larxene being described as a domineering woman, she suddenly bid her good bye, leaving a blank Axel behind. Much later, she met fellow newcomer, [[Marluxia]], who she also went up to willingly first. While before with Axel she was not familiar with all the names of the members, by this point, she knew Marluxia's name without trouble, hinting that some time had passed between the two scenes. She questioned the man simply about how he got here, which he said wasn't that different from her. She then stated that she had nothing really to do here, yet he told her that she will be getting missions soon, he supposed. Once more, she complained that it was boring. He appeared to share this general dissent for the castle, and its dullness, the first signs of the future partnership they will soon find themselves in. They spoke of their job in collecting hearts, and how the Organization's goal was to be whole, something Larxene commented on briefly in a surprising in-depth statement before they walked off together.

Before long, it is assumed the two neophytes begin plotting against the Organization in an attempt to take it over for themselves.

The first meetings with her and the two men seemed to be a nod to her relationship with them once in [[Castle Oblivion]] as well, as she was not shown interacting with others after.


:Ah, that's why it was written so like this; [http://gold-panner.livejournal.com/3744.html#cutid1 it's nearly a word-by-word quote of the story itself].
:Would someone like to contact goldpanner and ask for permission to be using his/her translations? Once we have permission, we need to write concise and clear summaries of the Round Room, Axel, and Marluxia scenes with Larxene.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 11:57, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Gold_Panner has already contacted you, KrytenKoro, which I am sure you are aware by now. She gives us her full support on it. I once edit the novels section as best as I can, but alas...

Like I said before, I think Sir GS, Sir DTN, Lady TNE, or Mister Judgement95 would be a good choice to revise the sections for Axel, Marluxia. Oh, and the other novels for Luxord and Demyx. Also, I think we should add a novel section for Xaldin, Zexion, and Saix. Lexaeus appeared as well. Who else am I missing...?

I would recommand the 358/2 Days novels translation, but we're lacking information. It's not enough to start a section on them.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 23:01, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
:Ah, to be clear about my revert on that - the basic structure which the cleanup was based on was too fundamentally flawed. I thought I had removed it completely, but sorry if it looked like I was insulting you.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 01:04, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
No. It's all right.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:19, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

== Spoilers? ==

{{Doc rocco|time=09:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)|sadtext=In Larxene's intro part, there's a fairly large spoiler in that it says;

"However, in recent revelation, Xion was discovered not to be a true Nobody. Instead, she's an incomplete Sora clone made of his leaked memories by Xemnas, only resembling a female form because it took the appearance of Sora's strongest memory at the time: Kairi. Making her arguably either a male, or genderless."

Now, I felt this was a huge spoiler. Surely there should be a spoiler tag right at the start or something? I mean, I couldn't see spoilers anywhere and was just checking over the article, and I'm guessing this is a fairly major plot point. It's necessary to state this, granted, but surely we could reword it to be not so spoilery? Or at least tag it with the template as per the Policy, since it's a pretty major spoiler. Thoughts and stuff?

And now I'm sad because of spoilers. ^^;;;}}

{{HarpieSirenTalk|text= Well... it goes without saying that spoilers for Days will be all over the wiki, and if you really want to avoid them then the best idea would to be avoide the wiki period till you get it in September. That being said, we really need the spoiler template there.}}

{{XNX|text=I think the spoiler template and the spoilers should be removed from this page, and least temporarily, or at least to a different part of the article. Did you see the page? It looks rediculous like that. Should we wait until September and then put it back in, or should we move the spoiler to a different part og the article?}}

{{HarpieSirenTalk|text= The reason we have the spoiler policy is so we don't have to wait... I say put it in the section for Days... but... I have no idea how to state it in that section... *ponders this*}}

{{XNX|text=There, I think it looks pretty good.}}

==What Happened?==

{{Yuffie Kisaragi|shocked=What happened to her trivia?}}

{{LyingMemories|time=[[User:Lying Memories|Lying Memories]] 08:04, February 11, 2010 (UTC)|text= That's what I wanna know.....}}
{{TNE|time=11:33, February 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm gonna take a look.

EDIT 11:34, February 11, 2010 (UTC) : Okay, I get it. The Trivia bits were merged with the story section.}}


{{Yuffie Kisaragi|text=TNE Saves the day once again! xD}}
{{TNE|time=03:46, February 15, 2010 (UTC)|text=Although I wonder where the part about the weapon names went...}}


==Fighting Style from 356/2 Days==
Why was the section on her fighting style from 356/2 Days removed (attacks, limits, weapons)?  Is it its own article now or something?[[User:TwoBitSpecialist|TwoBitSpecialist]] 21:54, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
::It was not removed, but moved to [[Mission Mode]], where this section is better suited. - [[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|EternalNothingnessXIII]] 21:55, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

== Defeat ==

Just something that has been troubling me, Larxene is the 2nd eliminated, but I think it should state she was the first 'killed' by Sora, Donald and Goofy. Vexen survived his final battle with Sora, but then Axel killed him. I just thought that counted for something. Should I add it. ([[User:Bananaphone1996|Bananaphone1996]] 21:23, April 23, 2010 (UTC))

==...''except'' Eruption ?==
{{TNE|time=00:11, July 8, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=If you come to think of it, you'd consider Indigo and Dissonance as part of the list, since they also exist in English. The ''except Eruption'' part under Larxene's weapons ''should'', at all costs, be taken off. Because the kana give the French pronunciation of '''''all''''' the names, and we shouldn't make the assumption that just because it exists in English, it shouldn't be counted.}}