Editing Talk:Kingdom Hearts Union χ

So, about Union X, it seems more like an update and name change to Unchained, so should we merge this with the Unchained page? And for the icons, do we consider it separate games? Should we replace the Unchained icon with the Union icon? {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 13:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
:Personally, I think Union X must be considered as it is a Final Mix version of Unchained X. So, different pages, diffents icons.  [[User:Lady Junky|Lady Junky]] ([[User talk:Lady Junky|talk]]) 13:23, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
::It's still strange since these versions aren't separate. I'm really torn here.  I think we should keep the original Unchained page, maybe shorten it, but keep the feature list it had back then and link to the new game's version. Everything else (including the icons and templates) should be replaced by the Union version. Even the acronym stayed the same, so it should be easy to do. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 13:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
:::I agree with Junky.  We should keep everything as is.  As like she said, this is sort of like a Final Mix.  It's specifically being rebranded as a "rejuvenation."  While we ALL know it's the same fucking thing - the rebranding is nothing more than yet ANOTHER fucking stalling tactic for KH3 - it'd be confusing otherwise.  There's also the fact that every other series or specific game-centric wiki have their own unique pages for differing versions or updates.  [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XV_Episode_Duscae Like this one.]  [http://finalfantasyxv.gamepedia.com/FFXV_Episode_Gladiolus Or this one.]  [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_and_Wine This one too!]  [http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Downloadable_Content To say nothing of these.]  This is very much touted as a major content update - an expansion - so, I think it needs to stay as is.     --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 17:08, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
::::But it's not an expansion or DLC, it's a reworked and rebranded version that replaces the base game completely like [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV Final Fantasy XIV], the FFWiki uses a [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV/Legacy Legacy page] in this case. Maybe that's also something to think about. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 18:06, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::Lol, I got a message on my client telling me that it's a content update.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 20:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::There is one other thing that I just realized that makes this stand on its own.  Yes, it's barely a retooling of Unchained X.  But storywise...it IS a sequel.  Unchained was literally nothing more than a port of the browser game.  Union Cross has story content that clearly goes beyond them, though.  Without the rebrand, Unchained X would remain as is with the story going past the original X - which would make IT supersede it.  But this is clearly meant to supersede ''both'' of them.  It's meant to stand as its own thing - outside of X's and Unchained's shadows.  It's absolutely no different than, say, the BlazBlue games (other than the fact that this is free).  Every single BB game was, let's face it, the same shit every damn time.  It was LITERALLY the same game, barring a few new additions and mechanics between releases.  It was their crappy stories, though, that billed them as sequels.  My prediction?  About a year from now, give or take, they'll announce a "third season" of the story.  It will get a massive content update.  It will get a rebranding, with a new name and an even shitter new logo, and it'll be treated just like this is.  .....While we still wait for KH3......  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 20:48, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::::It's not a true sequel since it contains the original content. Honestly, I can't think of a good way to describe it beyond "rebranding for the addition of the second arc of content". I don't think we should introduce new headers for it, unless it ends up something like with KH > KHFM where things not only get added, but also taken away. When that happens, the precedent has been to treat them as separate games (which is why KHFM gets separate headers for synthesis recipes, but not ability mechanics, and why KH1.5 almost never gets split off). That being said, we ''only'' change the headers wiki-wide for mechanics. Story is always kept under the banner of the original game, so we haven't even branched out X to Unchained yet because we're treating X as the "supra-title". To add to ''that''...the reason we separate mechanics is because the version differences of the game mean that some things aren't available in other versions of the game, so it's helpful to the reader to know what's actually in play. But because this is a digital app, anyone with Unchained X now will by necessity have Union X then.
::::::::::I feel like the best way to deal with this headache is to treat Unchained X/Union X as the same thing -- instead of ''replacing'' anything in templates or links, we have an icon representing both of them combined (think [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Omnimon Omnimon]'s chest emblem), and the templates say "Kingdom Hearts Unchained X & Union X" instead of "Kingdom Hearts Unchained X". This article would then be merged with Unchained X's, with a section sort of like how wikipedia itself deals with final mixes and ports for Union X.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:45, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::I agree. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 17:45, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::I like that idea, but I think it's too premature to implement it ''yet''.  We don't know if they'll remove any content.  Normally it'd be announced, but you never know.  So I say we keep everything as is until it's out.  Fair?  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 18:47, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
:No objections here.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:13, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
::I also like the merging idea. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 19:31, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

== Merger ==

Okay, so I have an idea for the Merger:  We make the infobox a tabber!  On the front/main page, the Unchained and Union icons will remain separate, but will both link to the same page.  When you get to the page, it will contain information from both releases (naturally it will be sorted by versions), while the infobox to the right will be a tabber where you can toggle between the Unchained and Union info (and their respective logos).  I think this is the neatest and most elegant solution, but....I'm having problems making the tabber work.  I've tried like six different methods and none of them are cooperating.  And having to make a new game infobox template is a last resort, so....I would really appreciate some help here.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 03:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:See [[Ribbon]] for coding.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:11, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
::No dice.  :<  It's just not cooperating worth a fuck.  Like, '''WHY''' is this being so difficult...  I've ''never'' had problems with tabbers on here before.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 17:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Link?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
::::Sandbox.  Though, honestly I didn't bother to save it lol, since it never worked in the preview.  Though there should be a cobbled up experiment from yesterday in there though.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 22:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
It's still more complicated than that because the Japanese and International version get Union Cross at a different point of content. For example in JP Dark Biter was introduced as part of Unchained while it will be part of Union in NA. This whole thing is a mess, that's why I think it's not really an expansion but a major update with a new name. --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] ([[User talk:ShardofTruth|talk]]) 05:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
:I know, that's why I thought this was an elegant little solution.  Keep 'em separate and combined at the same time.  It'll be especially necessary if one year from now, they do it again.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
:Okay, I have to go to bed now lol.  But tomorrow, I'll fix something up in the sandbox.  After that, I'll just need help with the tabber.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 :I know, that's why I thought this was an elegant little solution.  Keep 'em separate and combined at the same time.  It'll be especially necessary if one year from now, they do it again.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 :Okay, I have to go to bed now lol.  But tomorrow, I'll fix something up in the sandbox.  After that, I'll just need help with the tabber.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
-::Okay lol, nevermind.  It was faster than I thought.  My proposal for the final page is in the sandbox - all I need help with is making the infoboxes into tabbers.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
-:::There was a problem in the game infobox causing the div tags to stop working, but I fixed it and the tabbers are working now. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:40, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
-::::Thank you!  So, how about it then?  You guys want to do it like that?  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 22:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
-:::::I really like it. Now we need to solve the icon, template and category situation. I'm okay with two separate icons for the main page but I think they really should be merged for other pages, same for the categories and the navigation template. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 18:09, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
-::::::I was thinking of simple re-directs.  Whether you click on the icon, or a link in any of the template pages it'll take you to the merged one.  I'll keep it as "Unchained X" for now, for sake of simplicity.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 18:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
-:::::Hey, I just noticed something just slightly weird.  It's not a big issue per se, but I did notice that the infoboxes are smaller than compared to the other games - it's the tabber that's shrinking them for some reason.  Applying that tabber to any of the other games results in the same shrinkage.  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 19:02, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
-== To Merge or not to Merge ==
-{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=07:22, 20 January 2018 (UTC)|TRON=That is the question. I've read through the previous discussion. And yet, here we are, with the wiki split with whether or not this game is separate or not. I'll be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring this out because I wasn't here in 2016 when the game first came out or last April when this update came out. And I've not caught up to the quest when this update actually began (which I believe is Quest 666?). However, here's how I see it: This game seems very different story-wise from ''Unchained χ''. Though the set up and gameplay is largely the same, I believe that the game's story was presented as a re-release of ''Kingdom Hearts χ'' under ''Unchained χ''. With the ''Union χ'' update and brand, the story is now more of a sequel to the original ''χ''.
-I personally think we should split them. They're pretty different story-wise, which is probably the most important aspect of the game, is its story and how it ties to the rest of the series, specifically ''Kingdom Hearts III''. I think at this point, enough has changed between the two games to brand them differently. As far as how it affects other articles: story information that didn't take place under ''Unchained χ'' should be labeled under the header ''Kingdom Hearts Union χ[Cross]''. This should go for any game elements introduced in the update as well. This includes Enchanted Dominion's story. For some of the areas where they overlap, they should both be listed (''Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ/Union χ[cross]''). What do you guys think?}}
-{{ShardofTruth|time=09:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)|talk=I don't think it's that easy, so let's break it down to some points:
-:Union Cross contains everything Unchained had, so there's no content or story split here. Gameplay content-wise the only additions (yet) were Cross quests and the Pet System.
-:Unchained is not a re-release of the original Kingdom Hearts χ, it's in fact a continuation, something that Union Cross makes very clear.
-::So it's actually ''Kingdom Hearts χ[chi]'' + ''Kingdom Hearts χ Back Cover'' --> ''Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ'' --> ''Kingdom Hearts Union χ[Cross]''
-::This revelation is the transition from Unchained to Union Cross so to speak. Still, you can argue that these two sections are different since there are title card drops in the "Dandelion" cutscene and the "The Boy Who Appeared Last" cutscene, so "Unchained" as a title still exists in Union Cross.
-:What makes this even more confusing is that the global version of KHUX was rebranded as Union Cross sooner than the JP version from a content perspective (story, medals, Keyblades etc.), since the JP version is like five months ahead but the update hit both versions like 10 days apart and the new Taiwanese version will be introduced as Union Cross from the get go. For example this means that the whole Castle of Dreams storyline was introduced in Unchained for the JP version but as part of Union Cross in the global version.
-::What this means is that there is no general clear-cut when content got introduced in Unchained or Union Cross, we generally use the Japanese introduction here though.
-All in all I think actively splitting pages for Unchained and Union Cross in regard of game content is not helping and will generate more issues. Splitting story sections will only make sense (and in my opinion is only needed for) the main story. I think we should use just ''Kingdom Hearts χ'' for the Disney worlds.}}
-==χ series==
-Nomura recently used the term χ series [χシリーズ] when referring to χ (chi), Union χ (Cross), χ Back Cover and Dark Road. Is this a term that warrants it's own page on the wiki, akin to Dark Seeker Saga? - [[Special:Contributions/90.249.58.38|90.249.58.38]] 09:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
-:I think that's a good idea, Nomura's reasoning makes sense too. [https://twitter.com/KHDR_PR/status/1274946231676989440 Original] and [https://www.khinsider.com/news/Nomura-Shares-a-Message-to-Commemorate-Kingdom-Hearts-Dark-Road-s-Launch-17056 translation by Goldpanner] for everyone interested. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} [[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] ([[User talk:ShardofTruth|talk]]) 09:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
-::Sounds like that page would be very helpful. --{{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 22:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
-:::Agreed. It's own saga within the franchise, so we should make one.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 00:56, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
-==why all union x pages==
-i have been looking at the pages for kingdom hearts union x games and they are all incomplete. can someone fix them up? {{unsigned|Thephantomseekerx}}
-== Recategorizing under "Updates and Remakes" ==
-I think that ''Union χ'' should be moved to the "Updates and Remakes" category instead of counting as its own installment. This change would pretty much only affect minor presentation and formatting,  but would bring the wiki in line with official sources:
-*At the 20th anniversary event, KH series producer Hazama [https://youtu.be/5isiZBQdufw?t=102 stated] that there are 13 games in the series (counting ''Dark Road'', not counting the then-unrevealed ''Missing-Link'' and ''KHIV''). However, our current total is 14, since we count ''KHχ'' and ''Union χ'' separately.
-*The [https://www.jp.square-enix.com/kingdom/timeline/index.html official Japanese KH website] has a timeline which includes every game released up to ''KHIII''; here, ''Union χ'' is not shown as a distinct entry from ''KHχ''. Their list only uses ''Union χ'' (just like we only use ''Re:coded'' for most contexts), showing the official position is that ''Union χ'' counts as a remake rather than a sequel.
-Again, this would be a relatively inconsequential change, but given that it would affect the main page, I figured I'd see if anyone has anything to add or differing opinions on the matter.
-[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 04:34, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
-:KHUX has always been a special case in that matter. We already sort of consider it a remake if you look at the navbox (it only lists additional stuff). The Memorial Ultimania lists it as a "related entry" to KHχ (which is used for Final Mixes and Remakes), the Character Files covers KHχ, Unchained and Union all under Union χ.
-:So, if you look at all the evidence, I think we should consider it a remake/Final Mix like entry. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 09:46, 24 August 2022 (UTC)