Editing Talk:Keyblade Armor

== Name ==

When the real term for Armour appeared we'll change it immediatly. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:33, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
::But why are we using some apparent form of old english, hm? "Armor" is the correct spelling, unless this name has been confirmed (which you said it's not, so this shouldn't even be here). Someone give me the green light to move the page please, or have a staff member delete/move it themselves. - [[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|EternalNothingnessXIII]] 10:58, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

I mean't to say the japanese word armour did appear in BBS's youtube video. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 23:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

@ENX: There's already a page named "Armor", which is about something else. We'd need to call it "Armor (Birth by Sleep)" or something.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 23:36, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

@LapisScarab: Why called Armor whats the diffrence between Armour just wondering? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 23:42, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

:Both spellings are technically correct, but we use American English on the wiki, so "Armour" is changed to "Armor" and so forth.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 23:49, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Wait you mean Amor is the American word for armour? So Armour is British word right? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 00:23, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

:They're both English words that mean the same thing, but "Armor" is the American spelling and "Armour" is the Brittish spelling.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 00:32, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I say it shouldn't stay "Keyblade Armor", it seriously should be Armor, but it's about something else-maybe it should be added to the page Armor or be called Fighting Armor, I think that could be a good idea, the Keyblade dosn't make the Armor, and Xemnas doesn't wield a Keyblade, and Xion isn't wearing armor if you ask me, it's more of an outfit change  {{User:Hangon/Sig}} 17:14, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
::Take it up with Nomura.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 17:52, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

== Form? ==

Armor is a From, like Valor Form, or Retro Form, right? If so, we should add it to the Form template. --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 00:39, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so Armor are like the Keyblade and it seems that Armor had feelings like the Keyblades. Like when Kingdom Key chose Riku and then decided to return to Sora. Its just my opinion. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 01:24, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Any other opinions? --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 17:51, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

It strikes me as more of a tool than a form. Sort of a precursor to the Gummi Ship.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 17:53, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

== Cape ==

{{No.i|time=23:48, February 6, 2010 (UTC)|text=I just wanted to point out the reason for the capes not being on the armor in birth by sleep, and that is because it would take more time for the game to load if there was moving fabric involved, so it's not there for gameplay purposes. So in reality the capes are really there.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=23:51, February 6, 2010 (UTC)|text=You're correct that that is why they were removed, but they're not "really there". The Birth by Sleep game is a retcon of the Birth By Sleep ending video, meaning that canonically they never had capes.}}
{{No.i|time=00:18, February 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Ah, I see. But then why did the Lingering Sentiment have one in kingdom hearts 2 final mix?}}
{{LapisScarab|time=00:20, February 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Probably because the designs hadn't been finalized for the characters, and because that was just Terra's armor in a secret boss fight. Like you said before, animating ''three'' capes throughout the entire game would have been too expensive and cause a lot of loading time.}}
{{No.i|time=04:43, March 28, 2010 (UTC)|text=Are you sure it isn't canon? Because even the latest artwork has capes.}}
:The "latest artwork" isn't new. It's the concept artwork from before the game was even released - the stuff they specifically had to leave out because of the rendering issues.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 06:41, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
::You'll also notice that Fresh Breeze has a different design in Ven's concept art, namely the "teeth" are facing the opposite direction, so it's not the final, canon design. --[[User:Neumannz|Neumannz]] 07:15, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

== Capitalized ==

Armor (Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep)'s Armor is capitalized because its a term that needs to be capiralized like the Keyblade, Gummi Ship, and etc. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 06:41, February 7, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

== Artwork? ==

{{LCCH|text=The "artwork" of the armor looks more like fanart to me...}}
{{neumannz|time=02:21, April 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's from the Ultimania. It's official.}}

== Japanese Name ==

Doesn't BBS Ultimania provide the Japanese name for Armor? --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 05:25, April 14, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

==Throwback to old FF games?==
It occurred to me a week ago so I might as well say it now. Has anyone noticed that the armor worn in BBS might be somewhat of a shout out to the older Final Fantasy games where the protagonists all wore some kind of armor and capes. Every single one up to FFVII where the trend stopped. [[User:Kaihedgie|Kaihedgie]] 18:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I looked at it as more of a Kamen Rider/Super Sentai influence. Mostly because of the Henshin factor, the slap the sholder or arm peice and transform. And Terra's Keyblade Rider is something like a motorcycle/waverunner thing. [[User:Hyperwire 2.0|Hyperwre_2.0]] 06:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Really looks more like an original concept, not a reference to any game, as far as I can see.--[[User:Lord Captain Cecil Harvey|Lord Captain Cecil Harvey]] 01:21, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

{{Maggosh|flint=Nomura stated he used the Armor as opposed to Black Coats in The Gathering in part due to FFXII's release.}}

==Xemnas==
{{Disneyvillainman|text=What proof do we have that Xemnas's armor is keyblade armor. The two things look nothing alike. Is there any proof that his armor in Keyblade armor?}}

{{iZerox|time=01:03, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|sad=Look nothing alike? I quite beg to differ. His armor is almost entirely designed in the likeness of Terra's armor.
<gallery>
File:Armored_Xemnas.png
File:Terra_armor.png
</gallery>
Let us start with comparing the heads. Both have the metal plumes coming off on both sides and are identical in almost every way except for color. The only difference is that Xemnas dons a crown. All the keyblade armors have unique shoulder armors, so does Xemnas's. Compare the design and structure of the chest it's quite similar. The key difference here is that Xemnas's is parted by a nobody insignia in the center. Both armors feature elongated arm guards from the lower arm. Xemnas's is quite a deal larger but most everything in his armors design is over the top to add a powerful feel to it. Now I'd like to direct your attention to the feet. Both have metal wings that sprout from them. Xemnas's armor has much smaller ones but they are clearly there.

Xemnas is indirectly the nobody of Master Xehanort through the possession of Terra and Xehanort and Terra coexisting as Xehanort. It's reasonable to assume that the abilities of both co-existed in one body much like that of Sora and Ventus. Roxas the Nobody of Sora was able to wield the keyblade and took on the look of Ventus. Why then could Xemnas as the nobody of Xehnort not take on the ability to use keyblade armor from Master Xehanort as both Master Xehanort and Terra coexisted much like Ventus and Sora inside the Xehanort who Xemnas was created from.}}

{{Disneyvillainman|text=Even though you do have a good point, this is still speculation/original research and therefore is not permitted to be on this wiki.}}

{{17m|time=03:18, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text= I don't recall MX had an armor piece, I thought Keyblade Armors required a piece of the armor to be put on the users body. Besides, the trio's armor doesn't have any insignia and yet Xemnas' has a Nobody insignia on it. But we still don't know, I can be wrong.}}

{{iZerox|time=06:54, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=We don't ever see Master Xehanort's armor piece but that doesn't mean he didn't have one in the past. Accoding to [[Xehanort's Report|Xehanort Report II]] he once wore keyblade armor though he decided to no longer use it so he could grow from darkness. I have no proof and this portion is pure speculation but it is possible that the Crown Shoulder Plate would be Xemnas's shoulder piece used to summon the armor. It would not be impossible for him to have kept the armor piece hidden underneath his [[Black Coat]].}}

That could be right, but if MX had armor and he decided to don't use it any more then Xemnas should have his armor because he couldn't get it somewhere else. --{{subst:User:Secret agent clank/sig}} 07:01, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

{{17m|time=08:20, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text= Oh yeah I just read that report. I guess your theory is pretty much acceptable. But the report kind of confused me, MX said the Armor's purpose is to defend the wearer from Darkness just like the Black Coats, then why didn't Aqua use her armor in the secret ending? Unless she didn't know the purpose of the armor except for travelling between worlds :/}}

{{iZerox|time=15:45, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=Are you talking about the secret ending where she meets Ansem the Wise? She's lost her armor by this point it was taken by Braig and the rest and put into Ansem's castle. This is why Xemnas has her armor on display in Final Mix +. Someone added to the article that the Xemnas's armor was attributed to Terra's presence within Xehanort. And I must say that's quite the jump as far as speculation is concerned. But none the less there may be some sense in that unless you consider the existance of the Lingering Sentitment. So Terra has no armor to give.

Also @DisneyVillianMan: I understand the no speculation policy. But as the image is one extracted from the game it's official and it is recognizable to be armor like the rest. The origins of the armor are what is speculation but not the armor itself.}}

{{Xabryn|text=Xemnas armor is similar to Terra's but it doesn't mean that it is a Keyblade Armor, if we're going to consider it a Keyblade Armor we should also consider Riku's [[Sidecar Glider]] as one [[Keyblade Glider]] not saying that we should just saying that it would be as bad as saying that Xemnas's Armor is a keyblade armor}}

{{iZerox|time=16:53, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=Then perhaps a Trivia section along the lines of something like this, "Xemnas utilizes armor that bears strong resemblance to Keyblade Armor, though it is unconfirmed if it is Keyblade Armor." Would everyone prefer that?}}
{{KrytenKoro|I've already changed the article to reflect that we are not 100% sure it is Keyblade Armor, but
#He IS a Keyblade wielder, even if he doesn't know how to do it.
#It should not be treated as trivia, since this type of thing is absolutely unique, and not a coincidence.
}}

{{iZerox|time=22:37, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|happy=I agree with KrytenKoro. Roxas and Xion didn't start out knowing how to use the Keyblade initially from what we know. Roxas at least in the data world had to figure out how to use the keyblade. It only makes sense that Xemnas as the nobody of a (two(?)) keyblade wielders would also have the ability same as Roxas. Though it remains dormant.}}
Well, that and Nomura point-blank said he is a Keyblade wielder, and just can't remember it.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 23:04, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

{{iZerox|time=23:14, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|happy=Where was this? O.O I'd really like to read this myself.}}

And the only reason [[Roxas]] could use the [[Keyblade]] is because [[Ventus]]'s [[Heart]] is inside of him, which is also why Roxas has emotions. you would have known this if you have payed attention to Nomura interviews and the whole storyline, but i do think you are right at some part, his armor does look a great deal like [[Terra]]'s [[Keyblade Armor]], and he also had [[Xehanort]]'s, [[Master Xehanort]]'s, and Terra's memories but because he did not have Terra's Heart, (Which is in the revived Xehanort will will see in KH3 according to Nomura.) and his [[Soul]]. (Which is in the [[Lingering Sentiment]].)--My Keyblade + Your face = pwnage 23:20, September 25, 2010 (UTC)Chihuahuaman

{{iZerox|time=23:30, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=The Lingering Sentiment is not Terra's Soul it was Terra's emotions that took life in his armor. Oh and I found where it talks about Xemnas and his special abilities, armor etc: [[Director's_Secret_Report_XIII]] This is where you were refering to right KrytenKoro?}}
{{KrytenKoro|No, the BBS Ultimania has Nomura explaining that when Terra sealed Terra-Xehanort's heart, he forgot how to wield the Keyblade.}}

{{iZerox|time=05:21, September 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Oh okay. Though apparently the ability to use the keyblade still isn't necessary to use the armor.}}

iZerox, what you told about Ventus's heart inside Roxas. That would be crazy as Ventus's heart is inside [[Sora]] and if it would be inside Roxas too then Ventus has 2 hearts. [[User:Secret agent clank|&#123;&#123;subst:User:Secret agent clank/sig}}]] 06:01, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
:Okay seriously, Nomura said that, too. Ventus's heart is inside Roxas - that's not a matter for discussion.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 13:07, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
{{17m|time=13:50, September 26, 2010 (UTC)|text= oh yeah I forgot about that her armor is left with Xehanort -.- Maybe, after Roxas is born, Ventus' heart goes to Roxas, which explains the emotion and dual-wielding. Then, remember that BEFORE Sora awakes, Roxas has already merged with him, that's why Sora can use two Keyblades after he's awake. Although it's also possible Ventus' heart goes to Roxas when Sora's asleep}}

{{iZerox|time=15:34, September 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Clank, I wasn't the one who said that it was Chihuahuaman. But he's correct none the less. Anyway glad I was able to help clear things up about Aqua's armor.}}

Thank you for pointing out that i'm right IZerox!--My Keyblade + Your face = pwnage 15:56, September 26, 2010 (UTC)Chihuahuaman

== Not in use ==

{{ST|text=i really don't think the part under the arm armor that says it's the keyblade armor while not in use is accurate because when xehanort takes over terra's body and discards the keyblade armor, he still has the armor on his arm, despite the keyblade armor laying around him}}

{{17m|time=10:19, September 27, 2010 (UTC)|text= When Aqua left her armor with Xehanort her armor piece was also still in her arm. I think the piece is more like a container for the armor.}}

{{ST|text=exactly, and of course when i try to edit it toeflect something more accurate, it's reverted}}
::It's still part of the armor, and that's what it looks like when the armor is not in use. Even though it's possible for the armor to be left somewhere else or taken off (Terra-Xehanort v Lingering Sentiment, for example). It doesn't say "the armor ''turns'' into only this when not in use".[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 15:03, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

== FM armor ==

Whether or not Eraqus is '''''in it''''', it is Eraqus's armor. The mere fact that it has his Keyblade is proof of that - given canon is that only he and Aqua have held that Keyblade, and she doesn't wear that armor. There is no speculation in saying, "This is Eraqus's Keyblade Armor." The actual situation of the boss fight (or whether it's an actual fight) is what's uncertain.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 20:36, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

== Keyblade Armor ==

shouldn't it be Keyblade Warrior Armor? I mean it's not Armor for the Keyblade, and it's not made from Keyblades, but it is Armor that Keyblade Warriors wear and it's appearance seems to vary on Rank, as Terra, Aqua and Ventus all look similar while Eraqus has a different, similar, but different look showing a higher rank? [[User:Zachariah Zuan|Zachariah Zuan]] 20:49, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
:Keyblade Armor is the term used in the series. We didn't make it up or anything.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 23:01, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
:: ah alright then, was just checking [[User:Zachariah Zuan|Zachariah Zuan]] 14:11, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

== Xion ==

{{ST|text=Since when was Xion's armor Keyblade Armor? there is no resemblance and i don't recall any comfirmation}}
:Well, it's armor, it's similar, and she's a Keyblade wielder. So, we cover it, saying "something resembling Keyblade Armor".[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 15:01, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
::{{ST|text=except the article doesn't say it "resembles" keyblade armor, it just talks about it as if it is normal Keyblade Armor}}
{{Maggosh|YMX="Xion dons a suit of armor that combines motifs from the Keyblade Armor..."}}

== Keyblade Master Xemnas? ==

"It's possible Xemnas intentionally wasn't using a Keyblade." 

Wait, I don't get it. He wanted a Keyblade for his big plan. The Organization basically sat there twiddling their thumbs until Sora finally went Heartless so they could have one. Why wouldn't he use it? Especially with its tremendous powers?[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 23:47, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he's a Star Wars fan. :D Just kidding, maybe he had the power to use a Keyblade, but didn't '''know''' he had the power to use a Keyblade. And what did you mean when you said that Xemnas abandons the armor? Xemnas never goes into space by my memory, and Mickey had a Gummi block. [[Special:Contributions/66.215.20.249|66.215.20.249]] 23:59, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ironically, I'd just made a section below on that very thing. That's partially my fault. I often use "Xehanort" instead of "Master Xehanort." In Master Xehanort's reports, he says he travelled the Lanes Between without armor. Admittedly, Mickey can be handwaved with "magic Gummi Block thingy," which is why I didn't include him below.

What stands out to me, though, is that Nomura says "intentionally." I had been assuming myself that he just didn't know that he could. But that's not "intentional." It's mind-boggling, really. Does he say anything else about this?[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 00:03, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe Darkness allowed MX to breathe. And Nomura did say it's '''possible''' Xemnas wasn't using the Keyblade intentionally, which doesn't rule out the possibility of him not knowing that he could use it. [[Special:Contributions/66.215.20.249|66.215.20.249]] 00:14, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
#He used the Black Coat, I'm pretty sure he even says so.
#"It's possible there's another person inside Xemnas who doesn't WANT him to use the Keyblade, even if he can."[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 06:36, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
:I remember no mention of the black coat. That would also be weird, considering it protects against darkness too. I do remember he was wearing it at the beginning, but I assumed he just didn't want anyone spotting him. Also, is that quote in the article? If not, can I put it in?[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 07:05, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
:::Hmm. It might be in the Ultimania, or it might be OR, then. Still, that's what the coat is for - to allow you to dive into darkness without being devoured by it.
:::No no no no. That quote was me being extremely sardonic, not something from the games. I was just saying the implication is that Terra's heart is within Xemnas, hence him calling Aqua's armor "friend" and behaving oddly.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 15:09, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

== Avoiding Edit Wars ==

Why were some of my changes reverted? If we mention characters like Xion & Xemnas, we should mention Eraqus, who's ''definitely'' using Keyblade Armor. Additionally, why is there any reason to believe it's impossible to breathe in the Lanes Between? It's not like ordinary space. Monstro's hung out there just fine & Xehanort says he travelled it with no armor.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 00:00, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it ''is'' like ordinary space, and Monstro was just affected by Darkness which allows him to breathe. [[Special:Contributions/66.215.20.249|66.215.20.249]] 00:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Dude, seriously, it's your word against Nomura's. >_> [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 00:12, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Whose word? Mine or Neo Bahamut's? [[Special:Contributions/66.215.20.249|66.215.20.249]] 00:15, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

:Neo Bahamut's. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 00:18, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. [[Special:Contributions/66.215.20.249|66.215.20.249]] 00:38, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see a single thing in any of the games that said you can't breathe in the Lanes Between. Or any references, for that matter. As a matter of fact, I saw plenty of evidence to the contrary. So, I don't see how this is "my word against Nomura's."[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 01:46, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

:I meant about Xemnas using the Keyblade. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 01:57, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
::Oh. Well, I still wouldn't call that "my word versus his," because I'm basically asking what the Hell he's talking about. Also, as someone else pointed out, he could be misleading us to some degree.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] 02:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

==Remove Xemnas and Xion==

other than pure speculation, this isspecifically referring to "Keyblade Armor". A huge difference between TAV, Master Eraqus from Xemnas and Xion. Both Xemnas and Xion never wielded their keyblades in their armor form. Xemnas had a sword. Xion had monster like weapons that differed from keyblades each time and in the end also resembled swords but with a trinity spike at the top.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 01:53, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

This has already been discussed, look further up the page. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 01:58, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


It's pure speculation on both parts though. YOu guys strive for the best right? THen why not have exact detail? NOt false pretenses>[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 02:06, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

{{Maggosh|flint=<big><big><big>IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED. LOOK FURTHER UP THE PAGE.</big></big></big>

Seriously, you're borderline illiterate.}}

To restate, to say they're "similar to Keyblade armor" isn't really that big of a deal.[[Special:Contributions/75.195.123.213|75.195.123.213]] 02:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

that discussion was going lazily. Especially Xion's. Being discussed before, doesn't mean they met a discussion.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 05:04, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

:So, you didn't read it at all. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 05:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

:I read it all. if you say i didn't then show some evidence. For one, Xion resembles alot more than an unverse than a keyblade armor. now, this might get into question, but let's compare shall we.

trinity armor= http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Trinity_Armor.png

xion's final form=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Xion_Armor_4.png

Aqua's armor=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Aqua_armor.png

Now i know you're technically stating it but it still says it could be in xemnas section stating "what appears to be" is like saying "it might be", . As for Xion's section it states she's wielding keyblades, which in her 1st-final form she isn't. I say Xion resembles more of a heartless or an unversed rather than keyblade armor. For Xemnas, it could be worded more directly, by stating it just resembles it[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 05:49, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, you ''didn't'' read the above discussion. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 05:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
::I actually agree with you on the bit about Xemnas and changed the wording slightly. Xion's section does not say she's using actual Keyblades; it says "Keyblades" in quotations, which, if you were unaware, is indicative that they are ''not'' actual Keyblades, they are simply similar to them. Also, why did you link to a picture of the Trinity Armor? You ''are'' aware that has nothing to do with this at all, right?{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:59, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I dont care what you say. everything you say onward will be ignored. 

as for lapisScarab, it's god to know you agreed on Xemnas, but for Xion, i would say we have to be more "Direct". Since, this is a wikia. I put the picture of trinity armor to show a bigger resemblance to them, instead of keyblade armor.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 06:05, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
:Saying it resembles Trinity Armor is speculating. Double standards are fun, aren't they? [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 06:08, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

:How do you propose we be more "direct" about that? "BY THE WAY, THESE AREN'T REAL KEYBLADES. I KNOW THAT'S WHY IT'S IN QUOTES, BUT I WANT TO BE SURE YOU'RE NOT ILLITERATE." I've told you before, our readers aren't stupid. The fact that "Keyblades" is in quotations means that they are not actually Keyblades.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

There really ''isn't'' a resemblance between Xion's armor and the Trinity Armor, certainly not a greater one than between Xion's armor and Keyblade Armor. I would say there is a bit of resemblance with the [[Armor of the Master]], though...  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:10, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

the only way i am agreeing with Bijinder in any sort, type, fashion, which, way, or form is that if we're just mentioning the similarities between Xemnas' and Xion's armor to Keyblade Armor, then we should at least take the images out of the List of Armors section and into their respective sections, because since the name "List of Amors" seems to imply list of Keyblade Armors so it could tend to be really confusing--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:21, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


@LapisScarab, that's not the point. You can just say "sword-like weapons" instead of "keyblades" in quotation. You're making it more difficult than it is. It's the tone that's the problem. It sounds like it's been done by a fan, not a professional on the matter, Also has that "convincing" tone too, such as "it may be this and this but in reality it is this and this" or sometimes you guys say something like "THis character resembles some-what this characters personality". and yes we are fans, but still, the idea is to sound formal as possible. it just gives it "personality" and i dont think it should be on here.

@Neumannz, i think Master of the Armor has a less of a resemblance than Trinity Armor, at least Trinity armor has the same color scheme as Sora kh1, the same as Xion (final form). I guess i could see a similarity though, that only being the three points on the head, but i think, Xion is more crown like while Armor of the Master is more like wings. Another big difference is Xion's head is more hollow in final form, while TAV AotM have a more helmet.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 06:28, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

:What? A similar color scheme can hardly be called a resemblance--and keep in mind that the Trinity Armor will most likely be recolored in BBSFM. Xion's armor, on the other hand, is stylized similarly to a Keyblade Armor: Note the helmet, especially with its face and jaw, and the boots and gloves. If anything, it's designed as an amalgam of Sora's clothes and Keyblade Armor.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:35, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with using quotations in that manner, and if you had any grasp of English you would know that. It's no less professional that saying "sword-like" (in fact, tacking on "-like" is a juvenile way to describe something in my opinion). Change it if you want, but I'm not going to. 

Also, the Trinity Armor has ''nothing to do with this''. Drop it, you're diverting the whole reason you started this pointless and redundant debate.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:36, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little late saying this, but I wouldn't start ignoring people if i were you, we'll remember that next time you want to try and debate smoething, ans roundabout's fair play--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:39, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
:Xion's outfit in her final battle is clearly armor, and she is clearly wielding Keyblades. The fact that the armor is similar to Sora's clothing only serves to further the link, as the BbS heroes' armors all take pieces from their clothes. Xemnas's armor is also extraordinarily similar to Terra's, and the main difference is the "King" details that were added to it.
:To be rigorous, though, I would definitely suggest moving Xemnas and Xion's images to their sections. Until they are explicitly said to be Keyblade Armors, they are simply related concepts, and should be treated as such.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 06:44, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

::''{rubs ear thoughtfully}'' I guess we probably don't need to give them a separate section, since they're very clearly related...  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:50, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
:::As in just moving them to their respective story sections where they're mentioned, not making all new sections for them--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 07:00, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Correct. What you did is fine.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 07:02, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

::::scarab, i'm not saying it's wrong in general, but it is a bit more juvenile, to use quotations as a way of implication. the point is to be blunt about it. Sword-like weapons is different, because it's more direct than sarcastically add "keyblades". And i would say that trinity armor was more of an example. So dont get so hurt about it.

::::@kryten, I'm trying to say it's clearly isn't "Keyblade Armor". Xion resembled Kurt Zisa in her third form, i'm sure her form was more related to Sora's memories, then actual armor, if you look at her first-third form, her weapons and add-on accessories to her seem to have the motif of the worlds they're fighting in. a big difference between TAV from Xemnas and Xion is that Xemnas and Xion use it more as a form, like if they were the armor themselves, but TAV actually wear the armor.  

::::@Neumanns, how "clear" is it?[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 02:02, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

:::Forgot to sign in. my bad.

{{LapisScarab|time=02:15, December 9, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=Okay, let's take stock. This particular discussion has gotten side-tracked because of all the pointless analogies. What exactly do you want done, Bijinder?}}

:::::I just want them out. it doesn't seem like there's a legit reason why we should keep them unless nomura specifically stated he based their design off of it. I think, if we start doing this, we're going to allow connections that aren't really there. Or imply them.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 02:23, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

{{LapisScarab|time=02:25, December 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Nothing in the article ''calls'' their armor Keyblade Armor. It is noting a ''similarity'' in the appearance and function of the armor to Keyblade Armor and, considering both of them are created from being with connections to KEyblade armor wearers (Ven and Terra), it is alright for the similarity to be noted.}}

:::But you understand what i'm trying to say. If we allow assumptions to govern reasoning, then we can add anything as long as the assumption meets the given situation. 

:::Xion wasn't, Terra? well it's debatable, not really something concrete on him considering some believe is he's from Master Xehanort memories, while others think he's based off of Terra's (not that I'm saying he isn't from Terra) but the similarities are pretty vague considering it doesn't really give a similarity, just states that they are similar. to me, there's a big difference between the two. Xion is much more metallic and Xemnas was more suit-like mixed with a motif of a king. But i also see more vagueness when i read the beginning of these sections. so i guess that's more of a reason for me because of the way they're written. Do you see it? (I dont try to put a comma, it just happens by accident. sorry about that)[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 02:40, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

{{LapisScarab|time=02:48, December 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Xemnas clearly possesses some of Terra's memories, since he refers to Aqua's armor as his "friend". Xion is constructed with then memories of Sora, Roxas, and parts of Ven, hence why she turns into him and collapses in Castle Oblivion in ''Days''. Anyway, it ''is'' reasoning, you're not allowed to add ''speculation'' to the aeticles. Nothing in the article is worded like speculation, but you'd be satisfied if the wording was improved? I'd be willing to compromise that.}}

How clear? Obviously not clear enough for the most dense of people, the kind who make the same complaints and arguments over and over, long after they've been addressed. But it's infinitely closer than a resemblance to Trinity Armor, which is far less humanoid than Xion.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:51, December 9, 2010 (UTC)


::I agree on Xemnas, but again, debates and no complete confirmation of who's nobody xemnas is, terra or xehanorts (possibly both) causes scandal. As for Ven's memories that was never proven (i think). But it's been such a long time since i played days, the only time i remember when she collapsed was when she was seeing memories of Riku in chain of memories. Worded like speculation isn't what i'm talking about. I'm talking about adding extra that isn't directly related to the topic because of speculation. But i guess wording would help out a lot more in seeing this more pasable. Such as the beginning of each sentence starts out like it was talking in the middle instead of the beginning. i think we can be much more blunt than that. Such as "Aqua's armor Appears in kingdom hearts two, when Xemnas...." you see what i mean? 

:As for nuemanns, I'm trying to say, we should add anything just because we think it's right, we should add things because we "know". we don't know if there is a connection, and nothing has implied it directly. It isn't "clear" until it's confirmed in-game, in a gameguide description, or in an interview.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 03:06, December 9, 2010 (UTC)
::1) Xemnas is apprentice Xehanort's Nobody.
::2) Xion possesses memories of Ventus.
::3) Apprentice Xehanort was a Keyblade wielder, he just didn't know it or chose not to use it.
:These are all facts, stated explicitly by Nomura.
:Xemnas and Xion clearly wear armor in these forms. This is undeniable.
::Per (1) and Nomura saying that Nobodies possess all the abilities of their originals, including Keyblades, Xemnas is a Keyblade wielder, even if he never uses one and doesn't know he can.
:::Xemnas's armor possesses most of the motifs that Terra's does, along with the added ermine, cloak, and crowns. Whatever unique armor he is wearing, it can fairly be assumed to be highly relevant.
::Per Xion being a Keyblade wielder and wearing armor, as well as possessing memories of Ventus, whatever unique armor she is wearing in ''all'' of her forms, armor which possesses all of the known markers of Keyblade Armor, can fairly be assumed to be highly relevant.
:Being highly relevant allows us to cover the info here. That's how articles work. If we only allowed sentences in which Nomura said "Keyblade Armor", we would not be able to write an article.
::''However'', by no means is this proof that those two armors ''are'' Keyblade Armors. ''Although they are relevant and absolutely should be covered on this page'', all reasonable* efforts should be made to make sure that the article does not give false implications.

:*"Reasonable" here meaning "anyone with basic reading capability and literacy should be able to understand the difference.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 03:31, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

::Like i said, this is all based on assumptions, not knowledge at all. 

::I don't quite remember him saying that. When did he say that? they seem to have similar abilities, such as Lea's Frisbee and Chakram. And i dont see the resemblance because it's not stated. Sure they're both "armor" thats as close as they're going to get, but i dont see it resembling keyblade armor. Nobodies in their unique forms such as marluxia can take any shape. But i guess the head is the only thing that i see any resemblance. As for Xion, first, she technically never was a real keyblade wielder, her keyblade was also fake but all the abilities were real apparently. two, she wasn't "wearing" armor, she was the armor, if you actually look at it carefully. it's impossible for her to wear such a tiny thing, and later command such a giant armor. And again, no one seems to actually give proof that she has memories of ventus. And what are "markers" (not 100% fluent in english, but i'm pretty sure, that word is being used a lil too vaguely here) for keyblade armor?[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 04:03, December 9, 2010 (UTC)
:The citations for those quotes are already on this wiki. Furthermore, you are arguing explicitly from a place of ignorance (you have not read the applicable interviews or sources, and refuse to do so), so you bring nothing to the table. You are spamming this page and impeding the work of this wiki, and you will receive an official warning if you continue to spam this page.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 04:49, December 9, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not refusing anything here, i just don't know where that specific information is in an interview but i assume you're making this up considering i found nothing on Xion's page regarding ventus's memories, and nothing on Nobody and Organization 13 page regarding the weapons, i already read most of the interviews, and i usually get updates on information through email. So right now, i say your answers are in question.[[User:Bijinder 00|Bijinder 00]] 05:29, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

== No Heart ==

I'll be honest with you, No Heart being Master Xehanort's armor is pretty much speculation based soley on him using Master Xehanort's keyblade. With Armor of the Master, the name itself suggests that it is Eraqus's armor, as well as it's use of Eraqus icon and it fitting with the "samurai" theme he seems to have. "No Heart" is more vague a name, sure you can get "No Heart" out of Xehanort, but it also refers to Xemnas, who as a Nobody has no heart and is the character this boss seems to be referencing. In fact, this is probably why the name was used for this particular boss. Since we don't know what No Heart actually is (if it is actually anything, for all we know it could be a noncanon bonus boss who's journal entry is vague and doesn't reveal anything), we shouldn't be pasting in every article we can that it is Master Xehanort's or Xehanort's armor.  (even if it likely is) At the current moment, the armor is only confirmed as Xemnas's armor and as a bonus boss who uses Xehanort's Keyblade.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 01:22, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

*"No Heart" is a term that Nomura has specifically said Xehanort's name means.
*Xemnas wears the exact damn armor. By virtue of wielding a Keyblade, it is Keyblade Armor.
*It wields Xehanort's Keyblade.
*All bonus bosses are and always have been canon. Any suggestion otherwise is fan-wank, and Nomura has consistently refuted such absurd claims.

{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:28, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:Aren't you the rude one? Anyway, you forgot one important thing: these bonus bosses are in the Mirage Arena, which doesn't seem to exist within Birth By Sleep's narrative, and is used for bonus missions and mutiplayer. There has never been a situation where there was a entire world that was "noncanon" (or the closest that a playable world can get I supposs. I don't really want to argue with you over whether or not the Mirage Arena is canon) and thus no need to confirm any individual boss in such a world as canon or not. 
:But that was not my point. My point is, we do not know that this is Xehanort's armor. We know it's Xemnas's armor. We know it uses Xehanort's Keyblade. That's it. We know that M. Xehanort used to use armor, but discarded it before the game began. Is it this armor? Who knows. We know that Xemnas might be able to use the Keyblade. How is that last fact relevant? It's a boss blatantly referencing Xemnas that uses a Keyblade. You can speculate and fanwank that Xemnas's armor, despite having the Nobody symbol pasted all over it, is somehow M. Xehanort's discarded armor and that ten years ago that armor magically showed up to fight the heroes despite the dubious canonicity of the area in which the battle actually takes place in, but I will not allow you to be posting your fanwank theories throughout the Wiki without something concrete to back it up first. Forgive me, and good day to you.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 01:57, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
::"these bonus bosses are in the Mirage Arena, which doesn't seem to exist within Birth By Sleep's narrative, and is used for bonus missions and mutiplayer." - complete speculation, and not supported by precedent.
::"There has never been a situation where there was a entire world that was "noncanon"" - case in point.
::"My point is, we do not know that this is Xehanort's armor." see following.
::"We know it's Xemnas's armor." - who is Xehanort's Nobody.
::"We know it uses Xehanort's Keyblade." - which means it either has or is derived from Xehanort's heart.
::"We know that M. Xehanort used to use armor, but discarded it before the game began." - ahyuk.
::"We know that Xemnas might be able to use the Keyblade." - Specifically, the Keyblade he has because he was Xehanort.
::"despite having the Nobody symbol pasted all over it" - It has the thorns, which also appear on Sora's crown and the Oblivion's keychain. Regardless, the Nobody emblem is specifically derived from a rejection of the Keyblade Master emblem, which Xehanort explicitly denigrated when he cast away the armor as an apprentice. It is Xehanort's mark, much like the Heartless emblem is the royal crest of Hollow Bastion (ie, Ansem the Wise, the "source of all Heartless" (and yes, I get that that was a facetious title)). It belongs to the Nobodies no more than the Heartless belong to the Way to the Dawn, or the clothes of Ansem's apprentices belong to the Ultima Weapon.
::"ten years ago that armor magically showed up to fight the heroes" - your suggestion seems to be that it time traveled, too.

So:
*It has Xehanort's name, as confirmed by Nomura.
*It has Xehanort's Keyblade.
*Xehanort is confirmed to have had Keyblade Armor.
*'''''Xehanort is depicted wearing this exact armor as a Nobody.'''''

{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:13, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

It occurs to me that it's unlikely that his armor looked like that when he was an apprentice, but then again, there's no way Eraqus's armor looked like ''that'' when ''he'' was an apprentice, so that's not a big deal. But it does kinda beg the question of what caused them to change to those forms. (Damn, there better be a bloody Ultimania for this...)  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:31, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:" Regardless, the Nobody emblem is specifically derived from a rejection of the Keyblade Master emblem, which Xehanort explicitly denigrated when he cast away the armor as an apprentice. It is Xehanort's mark, much like the Heartless emblem is the royal crest of Hollow Bastion (ie, Ansem the Wise, the "source of all Heartless" (and yes, I get that that was a facetious title)). It belongs to the Nobodies no more than the Heartless belong to the Way to the Dawn, or the clothes of Ansem's apprentices belong to the Ultima Weapon."
::So let me get this straight, you use one fanwank theory to justify your support of another? Unless there was some Nomura interview that I missed that isn't cited anywhere on the Wiki, there is no proof that the Nobody symbol was Xehanort's mark or that it even existed before the creation of Nobodies. (If I recall correctly, Nomura confirmed that the Heartless symbol was actually the mark of Xehanort and the other apprentices, but that was Terra-Xehanort and not Master Xehanort.)
::The fact is, this is a bonus boss introduced with no context who references Xemnas and has Xehanort's Keyblade. Is it Master Xehanort's long discarded armor that decided to show up for unexplained reasons? Probably. Is it Master Xehanort's Nobody formed from when he discarded his old body when he possessed Terra? Possibility. Stupid fanwank theory? Oh yes. But I am not going to put that all over the Wiki, because it is a fanwank theory made on the spot in hype of a newly announced boss, just like your theory is. I know you guys are excited about this, but you can't jump to conclusions, no matter how obvious they may be to you. This is not the fanon wiki. Unless things are confirmed by the games, or by official sources, they don't belong here, no matter how convincing they seem in your head. I am sorry that you are so heated and bullheaded in support of your little theory, but let's wait for more ''facts'' before we go around declaring what "No Heart" really is. Deal?--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 02:48, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure no one ever said the Heartless symbol was the symbol of Xehanort and the apprentices.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:52, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:The names of the castle rooms, as well as those items you find to open the emblem door in Hollow Bastion show the Heartless emblem to be Hollow Bastion's crest.
:Otherarrow: what fanwank theory am I using? In the Ultimania, Nomura specifically says that the Nobody emblem was created from Xehanort's memories as the opposite of the Keyblade master emblem. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it is unique to Nobodies (which is the opposite of a fanwank theory, by the way).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:57, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
::Kryten: If he said that, then why has no one else with access to the Ultimania ever brought it up or added it to the Wiki in some way? Why haven't you? I'll be honest, I don't trust your honesty concerning your sources. And, since you didn't mention you had a source for this at all, it came off as a random guess of yours as to why the Nobody symbol exists.
::Neumannz: Like I said, if I recalled correctly. I apprently didn't, so that's that. Mistakes happen. Thank you.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 03:06, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:::...are you...are you ''serious''? Have you ''read'' the Birth by Sleep Ultimania? [http://heartstation.org/gallery/albums/birth-by-sleep/ultimania/bbsu%20024.png Here]. No, I didn't explicitly cite my claims at the beginning, ''because I assumed you had basic knowledge of the material''.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:14, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

It's in the "20 Mysteries" section: [http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/147019-20-kh-mysteries-solved-sort.html] Question 9.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 03:24, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::Neumannz:Thank you again. You have been very kind.
::::Kryton: I am sorry to not reach your expectations, but I do not read Japanese. The translations that I originally read omitted (or simply haven't gotten to for whatever reason) the fact about the symbols, and thus I had no knowledge of them. My apologies. However, I find it quite rude of you to assume everyone has intricate knowledge of every part of a guidebook written in a foreign language. I must ask again though, if you know this, why not add it to the Wiki? If you added it to the Wiki in the first place instead of hiding it like it was some trump card, this part of our argument could have been avoided.
::::Also, did we agree to keep the various theories out of the mainspace for now, or did you hope I'd forget by changing the subject?--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 03:35, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:::Otherarrow: in response to "why I totally used it as a trump card, and not at all as evidence to back up my argument" - why haven't you gotten off your lazy ass and finished all the card articles, and uploaded all the world summaries from the journals in the KH games? I know you have access to the info, so what's your excuse? I'm forced to assume that you must be some kind of anti-wiki monster, for hiding all this information from us.
:::It's pictures. Pictures, for got's sake.
:::That section in particular was published on all major KH fansites, with translations. You specifically mentioned something from that same section above (about Xemnas being able to use a Keyblade).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:54, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::I am sorry to waste your time. Indeed it has pictures. I had a major "derp moment" and couldn't get the meaning. I'll be honest, I don't frequent this Wiki often. Most of my facts about Kingdom Hearts are misremembered details from months old sources and thus would be probably reverted for being, well, wrong. I am holding nothing back. The reason I acted here is because I legitimately believed you were jumping the gun on connecting a theory, even if a plauseable one, to a recently announced boss without proof to back it up other than your own observations. I still disagree with your inclusion of this theory, but you have shown me (and clarified, in a rude way which I deserve) why you think this theory is ironclad, and I will trust your judgment.--[[User:Otherarrow|Otherarrow]] 04:28, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
:I apologize for getting rude - it was a failure on my part.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:30, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Kryton: The evidence you brought to prove the symbol the nobodies uses is master Xehanort actully said that it came from Terranort's memory of the mark of mastery(the part where he mentions the symbol is he is talking about Xemnas and Terranort's memories[http://kh13.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=5275]) and in that very article the symbol is refer to as the nobody's mark by Nomura himself. I believe it would be best to wait until the final mix or hopefully a final mix ultimania come out before we start labeling No Heart as Master Xehanort's Keyblade armor, and on a final note I actually believe your extremly solid theory, but it still doesn't mean it should be treated as fact until Nomura confirms it, and no, anagrams are not confirmations.--[[User:Masgrande|Masgrande]] 03:08, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

:Good thing we have an anagram to confirm it, then. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 03:26, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

::Again, an anagram is not a confirmation, Nomura said no heart and another are two canon anagrams but that doesn't mean we are going to change Another Side, Another Story to Xehanort Side, Xehanort Story just beacause it has the word another and Xemnas is in it.--[[User:Masgrande|Masgrande]] 03:49, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

:::Oh, ''that'''s what you meant. I just thought because you said "no anagrams are not confirmations" that, inversely,  we needed an anagram for a confirmation. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 04:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
::Then we remove "Armor of the Master" as well. Both of these bosses have the exact same qualities linking them to their respective master (in fact, Xehanort has more, since we've seen him wear that armor as Xemnas), so if the wiki is truly, ''truly'' unwilling to say that it's Xehanort's Keyblade Armor, we have to treat Eraqus's the same.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:08, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Maggosh:Sorry, I screw that one up with my suckish punctuation, again sorry;p.
Kryton:I actually see no problem with that, but I don't want to get into an edit war so I'm going to back off for now and just discuss it here.--[[User:Masgrande|Masgrande]] 07:21, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

== Armor ==

I would like to clarify an issue.The Keyblade Armor is said to be usually used by Keyblade wielders but it is neve sad that non-keyblade users can't use it.Those who are not Keyblade wileders can still use the armor,its armor people all you have to do is put it on.This is why the armor that Xemnas uses should be considered Keyblade armor.The armor that Xion wears can be considered Keyblade armor as well since she uses it to protect her and it can appear in a flash of light like most Keyblade armor can.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 04:33, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

...Which is why both ''are'' in the article as something similar to Keyblade Armor. There's no confirmation that they definitely are, since no one other than the BBS charaters with it has been seen wearing or operating confirmed KA. There's no indication that you can wear the armor if you don't have a Keyblade, and it's called '''Keyblade''' Armor. If anyone could wear it it would just be armor. But I digress, they are both already mentioned as being similar, and that's enough right now.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}04:43, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

What makes the armor special is that it can protect the user from darkness and allows them to breathe in the space.If anyone can put it on that doesn't mean it is just regular aromr it still has the same properties as before.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 04:47, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

:But you can't prove that the other armors have the same properties. You never see Xion in space, for example, so unless there's explicit confirmation, her armor is classified as ''similar'' to Keyblade Armor, but not necessarily '''as''' Keyblade Armor.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 04:52, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

No non-Keyblade wielder has ever worn it. Xion, Terra, Ven, Aqua, Eraqus (Armor of the Master), No Heart, and Xemnas (Nomuras has commented he could probably use a Keyblade just chose not to; go figure) all wore Keyblade Armor-like devices. No one else. Granted, there's no indication that it is exclusive to Keyblade wielders entirely... except that it is called, and I repeat, '''''Keyblade''''' Armor.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}04:54, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

True.However just look at the design for Xion and Xemnas armor one may consider it Keyblade Armor.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 04:55, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

:So, what's the issue here? It's called Keyblade Armor, it's used by Keyblade users... Seems fine to me.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 04:57, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Xehanort has proven that the armor can be pyhsically removed or put on.Anyone could put on armor if they choose too.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 04:57, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

How do you know that? The only ones who have worn what is explicitly known to be KA are Terra, Ven, Aqua, Armor of the Master, and No Heart. Xion and Xemnas wear Armor that is similar to KA. Every one of those characters can weild a Keyblade. What evidence do you have that a non Keyblade wielder can wear it?{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:00, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
:If we have not seen a non-Keyblade wielder wear armor, it stays Keyblade Armor. Xehanort was a Keyblade wielder, and therefore your point is moot. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 05:02, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

I am merely using logic here.Though no none Keyblade Wielders have been shown wearing the armor Xehanort has proven that the armor can be physically removed or put on which most people can do.Is there any proof that a non-Keybalde wielder can't use? It is not like there is a fail safe that prevents those who cannot wield the Keyblade from using it.It's just armor.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:04, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

...That's not very good logic. How exactly has he proven it? ''He'' is a Keyblade wielder, and of course the armor can be taken off. That has nothing to do with someone else putting it on. Where has there ever been a non-Keybade wielder that has worn this armor. I don't need to prove negatives like "you can't prove they ''don't'' wear it", my point is that the only characters we've ever seen wearing the armor are Keyblade users. The burden of proof is on you.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:08, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

My point is that it is possible that the armor can be worn by other people.Let me repeat that there is not like there is a fail-safe that prevents non-Keyblade wielders can use it.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:12, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

''How'' do you know that?{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:13, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

:EDIT CONFLICT: You don't know there isn't a "fail-safe". No one's tried to pick up discarded Keyblade Armor. For all you know, it disappears as soon as someone picks up the pieces, like a Keyblade.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:15, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Alright it is just armor it can be removed and worn.How did this dicussion even each this point.I orginally started this discussion to prove that the armor Xemnass and Xion wear is Keyblade armor.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:16, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Normally I'd try to avoid stuff like this, but this has been going for a quite a while. There is no proof of this, right? So far, I think this sounds like speculation.

And where exactly did it state that the armor that Xemnas and Xion wore is Keyblade armor?--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 05:18, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

:EDIT CONFLICT: Most likely, yes. It just hasn't been confirmed that Xion's armor is KA, so the article just states that it is similar.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:20, January 9, 2011 (UTC)


Once again, ''how do you know that''? 
And that was quickly disproved, since they aren't confirmed as being Keyblade armor. THey are noted as being ''similar'' to Keyblade Armor.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:21, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
@@ Line 66: / Line 66: @@
 {{iZerox|time=01:03, September 25, 2010 (UTC)|sad=Look nothing alike? I quite beg to differ. His armor is almost entirely designed in the likeness of Terra's armor.
 <gallery>
-File:Xemnas (Armored Controller) KHII.png
+File:Armored_Xemnas.png
-<!--File:Terra_armor.png-->
+File:Terra_armor.png
 </gallery>
 Let us start with comparing the heads. Both have the metal plumes coming off on both sides and are identical in almost every way except for color. The only difference is that Xemnas dons a crown. All the keyblade armors have unique shoulder armors, so does Xemnas's. Compare the design and structure of the chest it's quite similar. The key difference here is that Xemnas's is parted by a nobody insignia in the center. Both armors feature elongated arm guards from the lower arm. Xemnas's is quite a deal larger but most everything in his armors design is over the top to add a powerful feel to it. Now I'd like to direct your attention to the feet. Both have metal wings that sprout from them. Xemnas's armor has much smaller ones but they are clearly there.
@@ Line 202: / Line 202: @@
 trinity armor= http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Trinity_Armor.png
-xion's final form=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Xion Final Form KHD.png
+xion's final form=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Xion_Armor_4.png
 Aqua's armor=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Aqua_armor.png
@@ Line 218: / Line 218: @@
 :How do you propose we be more "direct" about that? "BY THE WAY, THESE AREN'T REAL KEYBLADES. I KNOW THAT'S WHY IT'S IN QUOTES, BUT I WANT TO BE SURE YOU'RE NOT ILLITERATE." I've told you before, our readers aren't stupid. The fact that "Keyblades" is in quotations means that they are not actually Keyblades.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
-There really ''isn't'' a resemblance between Xion's armor and the Trinity Armor, certainly not a greater one than between Xion's armor and Keyblade Armor. I would say there is a bit of resemblance with the [[Armor of Eraqus]], though...  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:10, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
+There really ''isn't'' a resemblance between Xion's armor and the Trinity Armor, certainly not a greater one than between Xion's armor and Keyblade Armor. I would say there is a bit of resemblance with the [[Armor of the Master]], though...  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:10, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 the only way i am agreeing with Bijinder in any sort, type, fashion, which, way, or form is that if we're just mentioning the similarities between Xemnas' and Xion's armor to Keyblade Armor, then we should at least take the images out of the List of Armors section and into their respective sections, because since the name "List of Amors" seems to imply list of Keyblade Armors so it could tend to be really confusing--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:21, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 386: / Line 386: @@
 Normally I'd try to avoid stuff like this, but this has been going for a quite a while. There is no proof of this, right? So far, I think this sounds like speculation.
-And where exactly did it state that the armor that Xemnas and Xion wore is Keyblade armor?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 05:18, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
+And where exactly did it state that the armor that Xemnas and Xion wore is Keyblade armor?--'''[[User:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#FBEC5D;">Ninja</span>]][[User talk:NinjaSheik|<span style="color:#87CEFA;">Sheik</span>]]''' 05:18, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
 :EDIT CONFLICT: Most likely, yes. It just hasn't been confirmed that Xion's armor is KA, so the article just states that it is similar.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:20, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
@@ Line 393: / Line 393: @@
 Once again, ''how do you know that''?
 And that was quickly disproved, since they aren't confirmed as being Keyblade armor. THey are noted as being ''similar'' to Keyblade Armor.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:21, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Once again based on the design and that it is used by fucking Keyblade wielders.Damn.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:22, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-EDIT CONFLICT: So that's that, then. We're all agreed that Xemnas and Xion's armor are similar to the Keyblade armor. Can the discussion seize. It's not really getting anywhere. It's not confirmed, so it shouldn't be listed as Keyblade armor. I could be just plain old armor.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 05:23, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Look I merely started thsi discussion becuase I was curious as to why people remve the images of I put of Xiona and Xemnass.I repeat WHY!--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:26, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-They weren't removed. Look at the article. They just changed locations.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:28, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Then where the hell is an image of Xemnas's armor?--The Dark Master
-:It's in the gallery. Under "Master Xehanort's Armor".
-:And even if there '''was''' no picture, there is still paragraphs on both, so who's saying they're not covered?  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:32, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-I would assume replaced with No Heart's armor, since they are virtually identical.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:32, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-If you guys have eyes you can see there is a difference in design of No Heart and Xemnas's armor.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:34, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-And what, praytell, is that? The only difference I see is that No Heart doesn't ahve those pulsating orange things, and those were part of the World of Nothingness. EDIT: Other than that they are identical, as explained [[Talk:No Heart#Xehanort's Keyblade Armor?|here]].{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:36, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-:O_O Oh no, there's no cape. What shall we do. </sarcasm>
-:It's not enough for another picture, and like I said, THERE'S STILL COVERAGE UNDER THE KINGDOM HEARTS II SECTION. We don't ''need'' anything else.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:38, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-I want you guys to look really closely at these two images.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:40, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-[[File:Xemnas (Armored Controller) KHII.png|100px]]
-[[File:No Heart KHBBSFM.png|100px]]
-I don;t even think that's a cape. It looks more like part of those pulsating things attached to the armor.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:43, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-:O_O Oh no, not only is he missing his cape/pulsing things, but HIS BELTS AREN'T CROSSED! </sarcasm>
-:Still not enough of a difference for his own picture on the page.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:45, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Oh dear god.There is a difference in some color,parts of the armor design is different and size.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:48, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-:And you're sure it's not just a terrible scan? [[:File:NoHeart001.png]]  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:51, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-[facepalm] The No Heart image came from a magazine scan. It's the image tha's darker, no the armor. And how do you know they're different sizes? When have you seen them next to each other? The differences you're talking about is the result of the images, not the actual armors.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}05:52, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Aw fuck they aren't that different.However the color is still slightly different.Xemnas's armor is more grey while No Heart seems more silver.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 05:55, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-:That can be chalked up to graphics, though. Same with the amount of detail on the feathers.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 05:57, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Damn you guys make some good arguements.However we still should note that the armor Xemnas uses does have some minor differences from No Heart.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 06:00, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Well, 1) it really doesn't, and 2) not on this article we won't. The descriptions of the armors are contained on the respective characters' pages.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:02, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Ok lets get something straght.The image of No Heart is terrible so putting an image of Xemnas's armor can display a   better view of the No Heart.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 06:04, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Or we could just put up the image of No Heart Neumannz linked to.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:06, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Ok we can do that.Still how will be no that the No Heart and Xemnas's armor are the same but with minor differences if we don't put both images.I mean some people will be blind to it or just be to lazy to look up the differences.--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 06:10, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-There aren't any differences. We just went through this. Even if there were, they'd know upon lookthing at the pictures in the respective articles.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}06:13, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-Screw it I don't care anymore do what you guys want.This discussion is now pointless.Good bye.Case Closed.Over and Done with.Outta here.--The Dark Master
-:He actually does still have the robes, if you look at the screenshots from the No Heart battle. They just aren't in the official art.
-:The article says "Keyblade Armor is armor that is worn by Keyblade wielders". Which it is. That statement is factually true even if it COULD be worn by others, because ''so far it has only been worn by Keyblade wielders''.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 06:26, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
-== Pluralization ==
-I can't find any sources on pluralization of "armor" beyond wiktionary, and nerds arguing on forums about what the pluralization should be (MW annoyingly lacks mentions of pluralization, as do the other online dictionaries I can access). As for "suits of Keyblade Armor", I believe this should be fine, as "suits of armor" is the way it's normally referred to in other texts, and a Keyblade Armor is very much a suit of armor.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
-:Agreed. I am positive that "armor" is the plural of "armor" anyway. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 20:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
-::Those armor?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
-:::Eh? I believe that "armor" is a non-quantifiable noun, like water, which certainly makes it awkward with some pronouns or articles. Consider "those water" vs. "that water". It's the same situation. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 20:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
-::"Waters" is definitely a word, for one, and wiktionary calls "armor" both countable and uncountable (it also explicitly says "armors" is a plural form of "armor", but oh well).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
-:::"Armors" is a word, apparently, just as "waters" is. But it just sounds plain awkward. Thus we say "suits of armor" because that is effectively what Keyblade Armor is. It's a generic term; "armors" is never used in-game. Even when addressing multiple characters, for example, Eraqus says "Your '''armor''' will protect you." - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 02:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
-Exactly. You would use "armors" to talk about groupings of armor, like you would use "waters" for bodies of water. Like, "Soldiers in the Middle Ages employed different armors in battle, including padded, scale, and chain mail."  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 04:48, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
-== Xion ==
-Although Xion's forms resemble armor, its not to say that she is physically wearing armor. From what appears it shows that is her "true" form. Another problem is that Keyblade armor has a purpose and it is to protect the one wearing it from the darkness. Xion's armor-like appearance is not confirmed. Even in quotations, makes things more suggestive and subjective, rather than clear and objective.[[User:Lucia Black 0013|Lucia Black 0013]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black 0013|talk]]) 05:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
-Not only that but the key fact that the armor is based on keyblades as well. There are several inaccuracies with it, suggesting the armor has more abilities.
-:Your objection is not relevant to how the article actually presents the Xion situation. You might be looking at a prior revision of the page.
-:Also, the idea that the armor is based on Keyblades is pure speculation. Nothing states that, and in fact, we see Xemnas in his Keyblade Armor without a Keyblade. All we know is that it is a suit of armor that ''Keyblade'' wielders wear, used to protect them from the darkness.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
-== Union Armor ==
-Should this be in other appearances?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:00, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
-:If there's an in-universe way to mention members of the different unions obtaining individual sets of Keyblade Armor, then it should be mentioned in the Story section instead, no? {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 17:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
-::I put them there for two reasons: 1. They are just costumes, no real Keyblade armors. 2. They aren't acknowledged by the game at all and besides the avatars no other NPC player wears them. Maybe they will become important in future cutscenes but for now they are just fluff like every other costume. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 20:48, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
-==Canon name?==
-I realize it may have been answered already but... Is "Keyblade Armor" a real canon name from the series? Because I absolutely do not recall where they use it in BBS so... If it is, can someone tell me where it is used please? [[User:Lady Junky|Lady Junky]] ([[User talk:Lady Junky|talk]]) 14:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-:Kryten moved the page in 2010 citing Maggosh as the source of information but I can't seem to find the discussion. I also can only find "armor", both in English and Japanese, as a term. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 18:19, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-::Exactly. I also found the name "Armor" on multiple occasions... but "Keyblade Armor"? Nah :/ [[User:Lady Junky|Lady Junky]] ([[User talk:Lady Junky|talk]]) 22:00, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-:::I know this is digging up an old can of worms, but if that's the case, should this be renamed back to "Armor"? When the article was created, there was a debate among the community back on the Keyhole about the article's name, and it kept switching back to "Armor" and "Keyblade Armor". I also haven't found anything in the BbS Ultimania that indicates that the official name is "Keyblade Armor", and it's simply referred to as "Armor". Kryten was the resident translator for the Japanese names, and was even the one we added the Japanese characters for the article. We could just in with him about the name, and see if he remembers where the name originated from.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-::::The BBS Bradygames guide calls it Keyblade Armor in the strategy section of the Terra-Xehanort fight. We're still looking for confirmation on the Japanese name. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 23:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-:::::Yeah, I just checked too. Page 75 of the guide: "In the final battle, Xehanort takes Terra's body, leaving you to fight from within your Keyblade Armor." Not sure if it is used somewhere else in the guide... But, in any case, it should be added as source on the page, cos the canonicity of this name is far from being easy to find... IF we consider it canon? Cos the name is not from the games, and the guide is not made by SE directly so... [[User:Lady Junky|Lady Junky]] ([[User talk:Lady Junky|talk]]) 23:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-::::::Agreed. Can anyone screenshot the image of that section. It'd be good to source the information with visible proof. If we don't agree that it is canon, then at the very least, it should be mentioned in the Trivia section.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 23:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-[https://imgur.com/a/IrH64 Here]. I made a screenshot of the whole page and a second one of the section where they use "Keyblade Armor" :) [[User:Lady Junky|Lady Junky]] ([[User talk:Lady Junky|talk]]) 23:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
-::::::::I don't see any reason to not treat it as canon. We use the Bradygames guides to determine the English names of otherwise-unnamed topics everywhere else (attack names, enemy names, enemy stats, etc.). As far as I have found, the games use "armor" (not "Armor"), indicating that we don't currently have an in-game canon name. We have a long precedent of accepting the Bradygames name in that instance.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
-:::::::::@Lady Junky: All right, thank you! :D I'll add the citation to the page, then.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
-::::::::::Since we don't have a source for the Japanese name yet, I'm going to change it to just 鎧, as it is called in the Ultimania. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 18:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
-== Sources ==
-If we're accurately citing to a published work, we don't need the image. We're using proper citing already.
-For the interviews, we need to cite to the ''interview'', not to khinsider. We can credit goldpanner or whoever for the translation, but khinsider is not the original source.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-:We may not ''need'' the image, but I think it's a good idea to keep it nevertheless. Providing physical evidence of the page from the guide book—an image directly showing where we got our source from—further validates that fact for readers who do not own the guide book and/or simply do not want it, and to readers who believe we're "making stuff up". It's not my style to sweat the small stuff, so if you guys really want to remove it, then that's fine. The link to the image adds more credibility since it allows readers to click on the link and see the evidence for their own eyes, but if you guys are oppose to having it, I'll concede to what the community wants. It's nothing to make a fuss over.
-:As for the sources, I do try to cite the original interviews, though it's hard considering that I have don't which page or issue which interview is from. All I am doing is quoting from the translators and sourcing them at the end of the reference. By no means is the citation claiming that KHInsider is the original source since I literally put "Translation via Goldpanner/Lissar" at the very end (I was following the examples we already had on the KHWiki when I began doing this), because as per our policies and their policies, we have to credit them if we're using their translations as a source. KHInsider have their resident translations, though they sometimes don't credit who specifically done the translations in their published posts or in the forums.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-::Then the image can be put on the talk page. It sets a bad precedent to require scans when things are already accurately cited.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:51, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
-:::I don't see how it's bad. I've always been taught the more valid sources you have, the better it is, because people will always have the "see it to believe it" mindset. I thought providing physical evidence of the actual scan of the page was a good thing, because it only ever works in one's favor. But if you're that against it, then you can remove it.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:03, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
-::::I don't see why people would think we're making stuff up when we are directly quoting the book and even mention the exact page it can be found on. If people need to "see it to believe it", then they should get the book themselves. And like Kryten said, we can put the link on the talk page, so people can still see it. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 22:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
-:::::Well, both the wikias and Wikipedia are always considered dubious sites to retrieve information from, and teachers often lecture students even "sources" can be ultimately false. It's something that's always been drilled into students, so I always like to have as many credible sources as possible. I still don't see the harm in keeping the link to the image, but very well. It's nothing to make a huge deal over.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:44, 1 March 2018 (UTC)