Editing Talk:Foreteller

==Madam Ava==
I've seen that the Keyblade was already moved, but this is more about the name itself. In the latest Daybreak Town story mission (14-3) you can talk to two Keyblade Wielders (they don't have individual clothing or names like Ephemera) that seem to know the Foreteller of the Vulpeus Union by name, {{nihongo|'''Madam Ava'''|アヴァ様|Ava sama}}.

Kazr10 from KHInsider, who translates the new story mission, says that he "picked Madam because of the -sama since using Master will just confuse English players, Miss is too informal and Mistress is too haughty." I'm not sure if "Lady" is really appropriate in this case. Since katakana is not really bijective the name could also be "Avar" which might make more sense etymologically. Anyway, these are the sources:

Boy with blue hair at Fountain Plaza:
確か、キツネの仮面の
予知者様だったから、
アヴァ様じゃないかな？
最近、噴水広場で
よく見かけるよ

Translation by Kazr10:
I think it is the Foreteller with a fox's mask. Could it be Madam Ava? Recently, she is frequently seen at the Fountain Plaza.

Girl with long pink hair:
エフェメラって
銀髪の子でしょ？
アヴァ様と話してるのを
見かけたなぁ。
アヴァ様のことを
よく知ってる友達が
一人いるんだけど……
今はミッションに出かけていて
街を離れてるの。
戻ったら話を聞くといいよ

Translation by Kazr10:
Ephemera? You mean the kid with the silver hair? I saw him talking with Madam Ava recently. I have a friend who knows more about Madam Ava, but he is out of town on a mission. I'll ask him when he returns.

--{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 14:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Can't "sama" refer to someone of high standing and can be used in regards of addressing one's master? If that's the case then shouldn't it be "Master Ava" rather than "Madam Ava", especially given that Master is a commonly used term in the series? ([[User:Levi657|Levi657]] ([[User talk:Levi657|talk]]) 02:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC))
:That is the ''exact'' reason Shard suggested using Madam instead of Master, yes.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:10, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
::In that case, I demand you all call me Lord Webber.  Because it's an indirect translation of "Webber-sama!"  ...Honestly.  Did you people ever heard of honorifics?  Eraqus's page isn't under "Master Eraqus."  So, just make a page titled "Ava" and that's the end of that. Because that's her name...  CRAZY concept, I know!  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 17:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
:::...yeah, we know what honorifics are, that's why we've been discussing them. "Madam" is an English honorific, and a translation that just drops honorifics loses a ''lot'' of relevant meaning, especially when English ''does'' usually have analogues—for example, a translation that just translates "Akira-san" as "Akira" instead of "Mr. Akira" will have a much different tone. Sometimes that tone isn't necessary, but when you're dealing with language that emphasizes the honorific, as with -sama, it's pretty relevant. We prefer to omit titles except when they are a critical part of the character's given name, so that's why Eraqus's page is titled that way (and granted, the same rule would function for Ava), but "Madame Ava" is still an accurate translation.
:::Not it's not.  Too vague, too many possibilities.  It's accurate only because you personally, aesthetically feel it is when something like "Lady Ava" is ''just'' as accurate.  It's shit like this that needs to be cleaned up from this wiki - things that you ''personally, individually'' feel need to be implemented when they really, really don't.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 19:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::::I really don't see why it matters one iota that "Lady Ava" is "just as accurate". We have [[Template:Translation]] for a reason -- nobody is claiming that the article title is the official English name, or even the final Japanese name. For subjects like this (or Foreteller's Keyblades, or a host of others), we gave the page article a title because MediaWiki software doesn't let you create an article without one. We post a disclaimer so that readers don't get confused about the canonicity of the title (unless they are ''trying'' to get confused just to bitch at us). Nowhere in that process are we making a claim that "Madam Ava/Foreteller's Keyblades/etc. is the one true name for this subject and all else is false!"{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
:::In any case, we now have a formal name for the character, "Foreteller Ava".{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:20, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::::That works.  It's correct, to the point, and specific to the character.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 19:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
To derail this discussion even further: The theater mode of [chi] has also a scene called "Master Ava's teachings (マスター・アヴァの教え)". --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 08:16, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
::If she's been called both Foreteller Ava and Master Ava, and neither with more frequency than the other or in a Journal context, then I would suggest we prioritize Foreteller Ava, as being a Foreteller is a more unique identifier, and also connotates her higher rank. It would also keep her article title (which, at this point she can probably be split off) more similar to the main Foreteller article, especially since we have habitually left out the "Master" from titles on other pages. Any objections?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
:::Now that we've split off the Foretellers to their own pages, are there any objections to replacing the tabbed images this article has with a group screenshot?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

== SDS ==

Is this stated within game? If it's out-universe, it should probably be in a design section.

*Ira: Wrath, Unicornis (not a Dragon)
*Aced(ia): Sloth, Ursus (yep)
*Ava(ritia): Greed, Vulpeus (yep)
*Gula: Gluttony, Leopardos (not a Boar)
*Invi(dia): Envy, Anguis (yep)

That leaves Lust (luxuria...possibly [[Lux]], then? If so, should mention on that page) and Pride (super[bia]...) And guess whose Keyblade resembles a mix of a goat and lion?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Also another set of animals: [http://www.hermitary.com/articles/ancrene.html]

In this wilderness are many evil beasts: the lion of pride, the snake of poisonous envy, the unicorn of anger, the bear of dead sloth, the fox of covetousness, the sow of gluttony, the scorpion with the tail of stinging lechery, that is, lust.

*snake of envy: check
*unicorn of anger: check
*bear of sloth: check
*fox of greed: check
*sow of gluttony: nope
*lion of pride -- if that's xehanort, then check

==Names: Foreteller or Master?==
[https://40.media.tumblr.com/2fd8b9d753cb683d5143201439ddd02b/tumblr_o59dnyFlbd1u4jlmfo1_540.png This screenshot] indicates that the traditional "Master" title is used. Is "Foreteller" ever made a full part of their name, or are they instead "(Master) Invi, Foreteller of the Anguis Union", etc.? In short, should we be referring to them as "Invi" ("Master Invi" on Keyblade wielders page), or as "Foreteller Invi"?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
:Chirithy addresses them as Master, the game as Foreteller. These titles are kind of interchangeable, Nomura said in the [http://www.khinsider.com/news/Nomura-on-KHX-Back-Cover-Unchained-X-Big-Hero-6-in-Kingdom-Hearts-3-6080 September interview]: "The Foretellers themselves are Keyblade Masters. Their teacher however is the Master of Masters." So there you have it, you can use both. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 12:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::So, in your opinion, should it be "Master Invi, Foreteller of the Anguis Union", or "Foreteller Invi, leader of the Anguis Union"? Is "Foreteller" the role they have ''within'' the Union, or is it a synonym for "Master" that exists outside of the Union? I know this is pretty pedantic, but it will change how we refer to these guys.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
:::As an analogy, is "Foreteller" akin to Bleach's Captains and Naruto's Kage, or is it akin to their Jinchuriki and Visored, classifications in the same "power range" that are defined by possessing specific abilities? Can there be Foretellers beyond these five who possess the same abilities, or if one of them retired, could their second in command inherit the title?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::::From what's been said, I don't think the title can be passed down. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 22:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
:::::Rex is right, Foreteller specifically means one of the five students of the Master of Masters that got a Book of Prophecies and a new name (this is the most important part). It's a special kind of master and probably a special kind of person too (this is speculation though). --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 00:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

==The Foreteller pursues the Darkside==
This scene happens in [chi] but not in Unchained: https://youtu.be/_CvNMdMJQyA?t=5m41s. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 12:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)~
:What is the relationship between X and Unchained? Is Unchained the Re:/Final Mix of X, or is X still the "canon" prequel to the rest of the series? If Unchained is the "new hawtness", then the scene should be marked with the canon template, but otherwise, we should probably use a refnote. Also, how did they get English text in that video?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::I'm really not sure. All I can say that this scene is still in the theater mode and was not removed from [chi] since Unchained was released. The English text was inserted in the video by Everglow, it's not an official translation. Maybe the felt the scene was too long for an introduction? I don't know. The Moogle part was also cut.
::There was this interview with Nomura around the time Unchained was announced, you can find it [http://www.khinsider.com/news/kingdom-hearts-unchained-x-chi-in-famitsu-5401 here], where he talks about the differences of both games. He considers both games the same work, both stories are essentially the same but he also says there are tricks to enjoy both of them. What he exactly means is a topic for wield speculation, even going so far as saying [chi] and Unchained are parallel worlds.
::The truth is that the story really is 99% the same. This introductions cutscene and the Guilt introduction scene (coming much later, around mission 250 I think) are the only ones changed, the later had to be rewritten to fit the medal style of Unchained. Then there some scenario changes of course. The 1st Anniversary story, that was completely separate in [chi], is now part of the main storyline in Unchained, some world stories are expanded to drag out the missions longer, some shortened (not sure why but they cut ca. 1/4 of the Beast's Castle storyline in Unchained), some are rewritten to fit Unchained altogether (e.g. the Dark Corridor Trials) and some haven't even be added yet (the Crystals of Light cutscenes and the 2nd Anniversary story). If we simply cover Unchained and put some notes here and there that it was different in [chi] we should be fine. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 16:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

== Skin color ==

Since we're noting Aced's dark skin, we should probably do that for the others as well, right? Do we do that cross-wiki, and if not, shouldn't we?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

== Some more pedantry ==

Are they mysterious ''within the context of the game'', or are we just saying that because we don't know much about their backstory?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
:Both?  I mean...I don't even know where their names came from - save for Ava. --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 14:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::These names were revealed in the newest story update from [chi].  Depending on which Union you are part of you meet a different Foreteller and Chirithy mentions their name before you fight them. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 16:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

== Plot sections ==

Okay, it took a few tries to find one that wasn't...pretty bad ([[Mushu]], [[Xehanort]], and [[Aladdin]] are all in desperate need of some conciseness), but [[Oogie Boogie]] has a good example of what plot sections should look like -- describe the intent of the character's presence in the scenes they appear, without necessarily restating every line of text they have and the actions they take. Focus on what the character themselves did, not those around them. Etc.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
:I've rewritten about as much as I'm comfortable with, and as you can all see even then there's a lot of notes asking for clarification. If anyone has any disagreements with what I've chosen to excise, please let me know so we can discuss it, but otherwise if someone more familiar with the remaining plot could continue from where I've left off, that would be much appreciated. Otherwise, y'all are gonna have to wait until I get to that point.
::One thing I ''do'' want to stress -- a lot of the story summaries for KHX throughout the wiki treat the plot as if, in-universe, it is a series of assassination missions. That doesn't seem to be the case for the first thirty missions I've played (which, in-universe, seem more like "help Doc find the other dwarves and escort Alice through the forest"), but I might be wrong. Can someone clarify whether stuff like "after defeating a Darkball in Agrabah" is the ''in-universe'' trigger for the plot, or if there was a larger theme to that chain of missions?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
@@ Line 80: / Line 80: @@
 ::There was this interview with Nomura around the time Unchained was announced, you can find it [http://www.khinsider.com/news/kingdom-hearts-unchained-x-chi-in-famitsu-5401 here], where he talks about the differences of both games. He considers both games the same work, both stories are essentially the same but he also says there are tricks to enjoy both of them. What he exactly means is a topic for wield speculation, even going so far as saying [chi] and Unchained are parallel worlds.
 ::The truth is that the story really is 99% the same. This introductions cutscene and the Guilt introduction scene (coming much later, around mission 250 I think) are the only ones changed, the later had to be rewritten to fit the medal style of Unchained. Then there some scenario changes of course. The 1st Anniversary story, that was completely separate in [chi], is now part of the main storyline in Unchained, some world stories are expanded to drag out the missions longer, some shortened (not sure why but they cut ca. 1/4 of the Beast's Castle storyline in Unchained), some are rewritten to fit Unchained altogether (e.g. the Dark Corridor Trials) and some haven't even be added yet (the Crystals of Light cutscenes and the 2nd Anniversary story). If we simply cover Unchained and put some notes here and there that it was different in [chi] we should be fine. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 16:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
-:::How should these asides be named, since our section headers use "Kingdom Hearts x"?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:26, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
-::::We should just make it clear it's ''Kingdom Hearts χ[chi]'' and not ''Kingdom Hearts χ Unchained'' we're talking about, I know this is a bit silly but both Unchained an Back Cover drop the "[chi]". Alternatively we could also rename every Kingdom Hearts χ section to Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ section since there is a good chance now this game will gain more content than normal [chi] in the end (because the service will end in September). --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 08:28, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
-:::::I agree with Shard's second point. Re:coded and Re:Chain of Memories both alter some story elements just as Unchained χ does and we treat those changes as canon as opposed to the original. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 18:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 == Skin color ==
@@ Line 99: / Line 96: @@
 :I've rewritten about as much as I'm comfortable with, and as you can all see even then there's a lot of notes asking for clarification. If anyone has any disagreements with what I've chosen to excise, please let me know so we can discuss it, but otherwise if someone more familiar with the remaining plot could continue from where I've left off, that would be much appreciated. Otherwise, y'all are gonna have to wait until I get to that point.
 ::One thing I ''do'' want to stress -- a lot of the story summaries for KHX throughout the wiki treat the plot as if, in-universe, it is a series of assassination missions. That doesn't seem to be the case for the first thirty missions I've played (which, in-universe, seem more like "help Doc find the other dwarves and escort Alice through the forest"), but I might be wrong. Can someone clarify whether stuff like "after defeating a Darkball in Agrabah" is the ''in-universe'' trigger for the plot, or if there was a larger theme to that chain of missions?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
-:::I have just cleared the chapter concerning the Darkball in Agrabah. This is the last in a series of battles against Darkballs that have infested the worlds; Chirithy asks the player to investigate the matter, and upon this last Darkball's defeat, the player returns to Daybreak Town on Chirithy's urging. From there, the plot continues. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 05:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
-::::Here's what was removed:
-;Move to "Beads of Light" article, after rewrite:
-*Sometime later, Player meets Chirithy in the Fountain Plaza, where Chirithy greets them happily and asks if he’s right to assume that Player’s always “going at it with all he’s got” – revealing that he’d brought something as a reward for all of Player’s hard work, handing Player Beads of Light. Player celebrates briefly before Chirithy tells them that there’s no need for it and asks that Player put it away. Chirithy explains that while Player wears the Beads of Light, they can’t be devoured by the Darkness, continuing to say that they’d been assigned a special mission directly from their Foreteller and that they’ll need the Beads of Light to complete the mission successfully. Elaborating, Chirithy explains that Player would still be defeating Heartless, but within the Corridors of Darkness, advising Player to be careful because the Beads of Light can only protect them from the Darkness for a set period of time. Player accepts the mission before them, earning some encouragement from Chirithy, who suggests that Player not push themselves and do their best.
-== "Before Kingdom Hearts χ" ==
-The storylink should refer to "Mission 94: Where's Chirithy? Pt. 2" I would put it there myself, but I
-) Am unfamiliar with this wiki's editing policy.
-) Am not capable of producing any sort of proof unless a series of phone screenshots would count.
-) Would not be certain if the "Please Confirm" tag is still needed despite my coming here to confirm for you that Chirithy does indeed tell you this information at the begining of "Mission 94: Where's Chirithy? Pt. 2".
-If someone watching this page could edit that, or double check my confirmation or whatever, that'd be great.
---Zem, No account
-:Welcome to the wiki. Thanks for your confirmation, I've added it among other things. There is no editing policy, you can add info anonymously too and we don't really need proof for something as accessible as Unchained, that rule is only in place for very new titles. We are currently short-staffed on writers so everything's added a bit slowly around here. --{{User:ShardofTruth/Sig}} 18:46, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
-::Thanks. I took interest in learning more about the Foretellers and such, and I noticed that the mission that Chirithy infodumps in was unconfirmed, so spent the last bits of my AP finding which one it was. Glad I could help. --Zem, No account 23:25, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
-:::We greatly appreciate your efforts! In order to help you, you can also just look up the scene on youtube to get cutscene info -- we don't want to use up all your AP when you don't have to!{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:48, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
-== Personality sections ==
-When the game launches on Tuesday, are we going to add personality sections for all the Foretellers, as well as Luxu and the MoM? I'm more than willing to help. [[User:Hallowseve97|Hallowseve97]] ([[User talk:Hallowseve97|talk]]) 21:55, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
-Yes, of course. :) That's the regular format for all characters' pages. Information is already being uploaded on the wiki, so I think you're free to do it any time now.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
-==Lost Masters==
-In the KH3 Ultimania Nomura states that the Lost Masters are composed of the five foretellers as well as the Master of Masters and Luxu. Do we need a new Lost Masters page or will this Foreteller page serve that purpose? If the latter, do we keep the name of this page as 'Foreteller' or rename to 'Lost Masters'? Also, whatever we decide, should we create a collage of the characters as per the Organization XIII, Seven Guardians of Light, and Real Organization pages? - [[User:Joveus|Joveus]] ([[User talk:Joveus|talk]]) 19:02, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
-::We would keep the name Foretellers. "Lost Masters" is an after-the-fact name based on the current status, like calling the Seven Princesses the "Sleeping Princesses".{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)