Editing KHWiki talk:Manual of Style

==Important Discussion!==
I'm opening this discussion to all editors!! THe Manual of Style needs your input, good sirs and madams.

A question by NeloAngelo: Should we separate enemy pages or should the battle strategy be put in the same page. I've answered this questions before but he still asks so I'm opening this discussion. The MoS needs more input anyway.

Suggestions? [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 10:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said on his talkpage yes. A page for strategies <small>(I hope I spelled that right)</small> would look really clutterd since there are many ways in defeating a boss. -[[User:Azul81677|Azul]] 10:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Should the enemies’ journal entries be italicized? —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 02:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, to symbolize it being an in-game description. [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 02:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Because journal entries for characters change over the course of the game, is there a specification for which point in the game the entries should come from? —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 16:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:All of them (if possible). --[[User:Hecko X|Hecko X]] 17:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:: How should one distinguish between the multiple journal entries?  [[Sora]]’s article has a numerical pattern, but would it be confusing after each entry update from the entire game is written down? —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 18:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Should the subject of enemy articles be singular or plural?  If singular, should they start with a definite or indefinite article? —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 18:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:Hard to say without trying out a layout, since I have absolutely no idea of how much information it would be. So I suggest making a sandbox, experiment, and when you/we find a setup that works, go with it. As for your second question, I'm sad to say I don't quite follow your train of thought. Could you possibly use an example to clarify? --[[User:Hecko X|Hecko X]] 18:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::Stick to singular. And omit the "the" or "a/an". I already said something about that in the style page? [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 19:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::: Yes, but you specified it for article titles, not the body.  Example of [[Surveillance Robot|plural]], [[Armored Knight|indefinite articles]] and [[Dark Thorn|definite articles]]. —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 19:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Use the definite article for the intro sentence. e.g "The '''Neo Shadow''' is a Heartless". The rest then is up to the writer, use as according to the sentence structure and the message to convey. [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 19:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Should second-person pronouns generally be avoided (with quotes being one of the exceptions)?  If so, what should be used in its place (e.g. the player, Sora)? —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 21:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
:Good question. Second person should be avoided. Use, the player for gameplay articles, and third person or character name for character and storyline pages. [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 21:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
::Strategies are also exceptions to the rule. --[[User:Hecko X|Hecko X]] 21:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

=== Overlinking ===

Rather than limiting a wikilink to its first occurrence in the article, how about a maximum of one per section?  Pages can link to a particular section and clicking on the table contents may skip sections, so the extra links could still be the first that the reader comes across. —[[User:Shidou|Shidou]] 03:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:We could adopt the Wikipedia approach to internal linking, and say as long as it doesn't occur too many times. I know that is vague, but I think as long as common sense can accept then it's fine. [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 08:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

===Videos===
I recommend placing videos in tables. Makes the pages more organized. [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]] 18:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


==Tense==
What is the KH Wiki policy on tense?  I often want to use past tense when describing events, but many articles are in present tense.  Ex. "Sora received the Keyblade in Destiny Islands" Vs. "Sora receives the Keyblade in Desitny Islands."  Both are plausible, but it would be confusing if we dont stay the same throughout.  Also, Axel's page for example begins with "Axel IS the 8th member of the orginaztion" despite the fact that hes dead.  So are we talking about characters as if the events of KH2 have happened and are over? or are we talking about them as if we are currently playing through the game and the action is "happening" in front of you?  
Thanks.--[[User:Zephyrus11|Zephyrus11]] 23:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

:The Last one. As if the game is happening in front of you. Although, if you are talking about something in KHII and reference something from KH of KH:CoM then that wouls be past tense. The Axel thing, "Axel IS the 8th member of the organization" is right-[[User:Azul81677|Azul]] 03:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
::Ok, Thank you. --[[User:Zephyrus11|Zephyrus11]] 03:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

==Review of the Manual of Style==
{{TNE|attntext=My additions and edits to the Manual of Style (as suggested by several present users) :

===General===
*The language of the wiki is English; spelling and grammar must be concise and clear. We have no definite preference on spelling between British English or American English, but if a word is spelled one way, e.g. "color", leave it as it is. The editor who writes the entry decides the spelling.
(At present I've been using American English despite the fact that I speak in British English, just to make it standard for all articles.)

===For Characters===
*General sections:
**Journal - according to Jiminy's Journal entry. This should be the first section. All entries should be ''italicized''. (Now, there's a dispute on whether to use Template:Journal or not. Thus far, the majority of users have gone with the current preset text.)
**(For Disney characters and Final Fantasy characters, priority should go towards their appearance in Kingdom Hearts rather than in their respective original games/films.

*(Trivia : Do not insert redundant information, particularly if it is already contained within the article. A trivia section should have, at the most, seven points. If merging to the main article body is possible, do so.)

===For Worlds/Locations===
*<s>Each location gets an article, as long as it is under the sphere of the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series.</s> (There is a lot of controversy surrounding this rule. The best solution should be this : important locations [particularly those where key events take place] get articles, whilst the rest are bolded and placed within the articles of the respective worlds.)

===For Items & Equipment===
*Each item and equipment gets an article. Seriously, even a potion. Why? Items & Equipments must be documented of its appearance in all games and how (and possibly WHERE) to retrieve them. 

===For Abilities===
*<s>All abilities should get an article, with one main ability article.</s> (This is controversial too. Not all abilities can be fully explained, and some will only remain as stubs. Key abilities and recurring abilities should get their articles, no doubt, but the rest fall under the description of [[Sora/Abilities]].)
*At least one image for identification. (I think we will need to start getting screenshots ! This will be particularly difficult for very dynamic abilities such as Sonic Blade and Judgement, as these will require several screenshots put into a timeline.)
*Place navigational template as relevant. (Do we even need one ?)}}

{{Azul|text=Troisnyx is right. But I have to say that the MoS page was borrowed from the FFWikis and was created when we first started coming to the wiki and really had no idea about the amount of info there was on certain things. In the FF universe, there are 20+ games so there is loads of info on just one item. We should revamp the MoS using TNE's comment. P.S Potion is an important item throughout the series and should get its own article :) }}

{{TNE|text=Provided we know where the locations for the chests containing the respective items are - that way, we can list them down on a few item pages. If they're all stubby, then we can consider joining the items together.

P.S. If you ask me, I prefer the Queen's English anyday. ;-)}}

{{TNE|text=Another thing I almost forgot, in light of what Mar1 did to the Caterpillar page :

===Deleted/previously deleted articles===
*(Deleted articles should never be revived on the Wiki until and unless there is enough information to substantiate it. If an article is too stubby and should be merged with another, the Merge template should be used.) The remaining articles (which are remnants of the merger) should be marked with the Delete template.
*(If an article was created or revived in bad faith and has little or nothing to do with the Kingdom Hearts universe, use the Delete template.)
*(All discussions about articles for deletion should take place in [[KHWiki:Pages for deletion]] and not on the talk pages of the marked articles.)}}

{{BebopKate|text=I'd like to add an addendum of my own that I've already been going by: component, minor, or insignificant items can be grouped by an identifying characteristic rather than each item having its own page as long as the details of each component are provided (Examples: [[Serenity]] of [[Item synthesis|Synthesis Materials]], [[Engine Gummi]] of [[Gummi Blocks]]).}}

{{TNE|text=Very well. That too. By the way, when do we begin the rewrite of the MoS ?}}

{{Azul|text=Well, since you are the one with the great ideas, I would think you would and we would tweak or add as we see fit :] }}

{{TNE|text=A '''lawyer''' had to do all this, ya ?

Okay, I'll do it. Mods and admins, keep watch over this page whilst I sit down and restructure all the points.

EDIT : Also, another thing I've noted : shouldn't the Kingdom Hearts Wiki space pages have a header or something ? (I might be able to help design the header, if someone could come up with the basic template !) It feels rather dreary to read plain, bulleted text with a few headers here and there. [[User talk:Doc rocco|See bottom of Doc rocco's talk page - we were discussing about it.]]}}
{{ILHI|12:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)|Can we please use a standard form of English? Inconsistency is the enemy of wiki. I believe Wikip works by using the English that makes most sense: so if a page is about something from England, then British English would be used.<br><br>But using the English first written in isn't a good policy. It kinda shows a lack of care for the wiki. This was first proposed at the FFWiki, right? I think I know the guy who originally suggested it, and I argued with him too.<br><br>So, we should use a standard, and I believe we should use US English in articles (and its accompanying spaces), project space and help-space. User space and the talk spaces, it is up to the author obviously.<br><br>This isn't because I use US English, because I don't, I'm from England. I have two wikis: One of them is about a game series by an English developer, and another about a popular card game, more popular in England. Both of these wikis will therefore use British English. Some English releases of Final Fantasy games still use some US English. In later FF games, and this applies for KH, they use US voice actors. Disney are also from the US. So, it would make more sense to be using US English in our articles.<br><br>Plz?}}

{{TNE|text=Got it.}}
{{MM841||What exactly is the difference between UK english and US english?}}
{{TNE|text=Firstly, the pronounciation of certain standard words. Secondly, American English-speakers say "Italicize" whilst British English-speakers use "Italicise" - see the difference in the ending ?

Also, words like "valor" (American) and "valour" (British), "dived" (British) and "dove" (American), "shone" (British) and "shined" (American). It's mostly a question of diction.}}
{{MM841||Wow, americans are weird}}

{{TNE|text=I know. Like I told Azul, I prefer the Queen's English anyday.}}
{{BebopKate|text=And that's not including dialects.  "Y'all", "reckon", and "fixin'" are perfectly acceptable words where I am, for example.  I go up north to, say, Boston and it's almost like I'm in a foreign country.

But yes, American English should be the default, I think, since that's the version of English they picked for the translation.}}

{{Azul|text=Us Americans aint weird!}}

{{TNE|blahtext=@Azul : When it comes to language.........

@BebopKate : I thought "reckon" was a universal word ?}}
{{BebopKate|text=It is, but I think it's how we use it.  As in, "I reckon I'm gonna go over to that there party now."  Or something like that...}}

{{TNE|text=I guess that's the way we use it too......}}
{{Yuanchosaan|time=08:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
|text=Nice guide, but I have a few questions: For abilities like Sonic Blade, would a video or animated .gif be better? Do we frame videos, or simply leave them at the bottom of the page? Is Video space preferred, or Youtube tags?

Odd, I thought "reckon" was a universal word as well. I prefer British English, but after seeing the <s>Orange (colour)</s> <s> Orange (color)</s> [[Wikipedia:Talk:Orange (colour)|Orange (colour)]] edit war on WP, I'll have to side with ILHI.}}

{{TNE|text=I'm not sure...... but here's what I have in mind :

*Since they're abilities, and only the sequence of the abilities need to be displayed, it's better to have an animated .gif (unless it's a very very short clip about the ability itself, and nothing else).
*Videos should be framed if there are more than two.
*For the third question, I'm not sure.

And I have another question : I recently put into the MoS that a maximum of five videos is allowed. Is that too many ? (As far as I know, Darkside has gone beyond the threshold with a whopping '''SEVEN''' videos - but I think [[User:Doc rocco|Rocco's]] edited it.)}}
{{BebopKate|text=Five?  What on earth does a page need five videos for?  I mean, if there's a reason I just can't think of...

As for reckon, I guess I can tell certain Yankee friends of mine they can shut their pie hole now. ^_^}}

{{TNE|text=Not five ? Should the maximum be four ?}}

{{Doc rocco|time=04:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)|text=Well, at the moment, I can see no reason for any page needing more than four videos. Effectively, there are only four games we'd need to showcase (I, CoM, II and Re:CoM. The Final Mixes are the same really, and bosses are just palette swaps), so really there should be no reason for an article to have more than four videos. Even with a few new games coming out soon, I doubt there'll be any articles in need of six videos. 

Essentially, the only pages with videos are boss and enemy pages, yeah? And the videos are there to help demonstrate what a boss can do, some strategies, etc.? Well, shouldn't the page give a good enough description and strategy for there to be no need for a video? Personally, I think enemy pages don't need a video if we're doing our job as editors right, but that's just me. But I'd like to propose that perhaps that enemy pages should keep videos to the absolute bare minimum. *waits for furore*}}

{{TNE|text=Very well then, as the common agreement goes, four videos at the max. I'll edit the MoS right away.}}

{{TNE|attntext=Another important thing : YouTube now has a customisation panel - so I've set in two new rules :

*Frame colour must be similar to that of the Infobox colour.
*No related videos are allowed.

What do you think ?}}

{{Doc rocco|time=02:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)|text=That sounds fantastic. Also, what about saying something about no direct linking to media, e.g. Links to downloading music files, entire soundtracks? I'm not sure what wiki policy is on this, but I'm assuming it's a big nono to illegal music downloads, so we should state it somewhere in case some "smart" person comes along and cries blue murder when we say it's not allowed. <font size="1">Talk of this also cause ROMs to spring to mind, but that's an entirely different matter.</font>}}

{{TNE|text=I might as well mention that too. Speaking of which, we'd better fix all the videos. Many of them don't follow the two new rules.

EDIT : We've a problem with the YouTube rule. I can't seem to embed the code with the colour/''sans'' related videos.}}

==Final Fantasy & Disney==
{{yer mom|text=What's the rule for Final Fantasy and Disney movies references concerning style? I've seen things like:

'''X Character''' comes from ''"[http://www.wikipedia.com Random Disney Movie]"'' 

Is that correct? Or should it go without italics, without the " thingies or in some other way? It's the same with the Final Fantasy references, the links go to the FF wikia but should they go in italics, with " thingies or bolded or how?}}

{{Azul|time=22:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)|text=This is probably uber-late, but they should be italicized.}}

==Game listings==
{{Azul|time=22:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)|text=For characters, in the story section, should the games be listed on how they chronologically happen, or when the games is released? I'm sure this is a stupid question, and chronologically is proly the best, but I want to make sure so that I can put it in MoS.}}
{{HOO|time=22:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)|text=I think chronologically is best, but what will we do for 358/2 Days? It's in between KH and KHII but so is CoM. Maybe state everything we know from CoM and Re:CoM and then put new details about the events that happened during CoM (like the secret journals) in the Days section.}}
{{Azul|time=02:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|text=Does it run concurrently with CoM? I haven't really been reading up on Days.}}
{{HOO|time=03:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|talktext=Sorry about not responding. Days starts before the beginning of CoM. Roxas learns some things from the Organization members in CoM and then they leave at some point in the game to Castle Oblivion. After the events of CoM, Sora is put to sleep and Axel returns. The game then goes until the beginning of KHII. So it basically goes from when Sora loses his heart in KH and then until a couple days before KHII. They do happen at the same time except that Days covers a larger period of time than CoM.}}
{{Azul|time=03:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|text=So.... if we are going in chronological order, it should go: BbS, KH, Days, CoM, II, yas?}}
{{HOO|time=03:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|text=Yes.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Personally, I think the story section should be organized by event. So, Axel (for example) would have "Pre-games", "Days", "Chain", "Days 2", "KH2".|emotion=happy|04:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)}}
{{Azul|time=21:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)|text=How would it be headed? Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days 2?}}
{{HOO|time=00:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)|text=How about "358/2 Days continued" or "Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days continued"? We could also put a note on the top of the CoM section where it says some thing like: "The story of Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories take place at the same time as  358/2 Days and these are the events taken from Chain of Memories."}}
{{Azul|time=01:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)|text=The header idea is good, but the note... might be a little bit complicated and/or confusing.}}

==Revamp (as of October 2009)==
Ideas, please ! '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="black">TNÉ</font>]]''' <sub>'''[[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#1E90FF">En avant</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#00BFFF ">Bravo !</font>]]'''</sub> 01:25, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
:I think now is too soon to discuss this.  First we need to change over the main-page and sidebar, and then I think we should have one perfect example of each type of article to base things off of.  [[User:Guardian Soul|<span style="color:darkslateblue;">'''Guardian'''</span>]] [[User talk:Guardian Soul|<span style="color:black;">'''Soul'''</span>]] 01:29, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

;Examples (closest)
:Character: [[Mickey Mouse]] (closest to perfect status, but still needing cleanup)
:Enemy: [[Air Pirate]] (missing section on story appearances, and attack infobox)
:Boss: [[Guard Armor]] (trivia section contains two bits that should be moved to plot)
:Mythology: [[Keyblade]] (missing Keychain discussion re:Days, sourcing, concept art of lion sora with chainblade, rewrite to use real sourcing, instead of "because of this scene")
:World: [[100 Acre Wood]] (trivia removed from lead, each room be listed as an anchored sub-section instead (header's not needed, but paragraphs yes), full plot, treasure list using format from synthesis articles (ex. Mythril), trivia trimmed of less-meaningful)
:Equipment: [[Cosmic Arts]] (ingame image a la [[Remembrance]])
:Days weapon:[[Missing Ache]]
:Synthesis: [[Mythril]] (in-game images a la [[Remembrance]])

That's all the template articles I can think of, and what needs to be done to make them up-to-date perfect.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 23:07, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Hm. I'll come up with something ! '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="black">TNÉ</font>]]''' <sub>'''[[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#1E90FF">En avant</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#00BFFF ">Bravo !</font>]]'''</sub> 01:51, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

==Gallery/Artwork sections==
Are gallery/artwork sections allowed? They can be used to place artwork or screenshots that in turn don't clutter up the article. For example, if you look at Roxas' article, there's a picture of Roxas' face which doesn't relate or belong there. If you scroll down under "Encounter with Sora", there's another random artwork of Roxas which doesn't belong there either. If you look at Riku's article, it's littered with artwork of Riku in the different games which I think would be better off in an artwork section (i.e. Artwork of Riku posing with a keyblade doesn't relate to him speaking with Mickey or giving hints to Sora) 

I think it would be more appropriate having screenshots of the specific events mentioned in the articles, instead of artwork that doesn't necessarily relate to what is being read (i.e. Instead of artwork of what Roxas looks like in KH2, we could replace it with a photo of Roxas with Hayner, Pence and Olette on the clock tower). Are artwork sections are allowed and if so, could we replace them with more appropriate screeshots? [[User:Alex Prower|Alex Prower]] 07:09, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

== Quotes Organization ==

Should quotes on articles be listed by using bullets or <nowiki><br></nowiki>s? I found nothing on this in the Manual of Style, and it differs between several articles. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 21:28, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
:Whichever is more standard. I've noticed that most pages go with br tags, so I think the br will do. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#2A52BE">Agi Idup</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#1E90FF">Agi</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#71A6D2">Ngelaban !</font>]]'''</big> 23:21, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
::Well, some quotes are long and it's hard to differentiate them from the rest. Bullets make it look a bit more organized. -[[User:Azul81677|<font color="#4682B4">Azul</font>]] <sup><small>('''''[[User talk:Azul81677|talk]]  ・[[Special:Contributions/Azul81677|contribs]]''''')</small></sup> 23:35, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
:If it's bullets we're going with, I think we should have bullets throughout. <big>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#2A52BE">Agi Idup</font>]] [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#1E90FF">Agi</font>]] [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="#71A6D2">Ngelaban !</font>]]'''</big> 23:38, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
::Bullets it is then, that's what I was leaning towards as well. Thanks! --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 01:59, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

== " "The player" cannot be referred to as "they". Use the general "he".  ==

I '''''strenuously''''' disagree with this. If it is ''accurate'' to refer to the player and not the player character, "they" is very well supported by precedent.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

:I concur. And that's all I really have to say on the matter.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 03:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Same goes for me. Honestly, I don't see the problem using "they". Published books do the same thing, too.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 04:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

== Why Pot Spider and Barrel Spider are considered Emblem Heartless. ==

The reason for this could be the emblem is on the bottom of the Barrel Spider unseen and the Pot Spider is part of the Pot Centipede, which makes sense.
:Or by going from the (1)definitions of Pureblood and Emblem Heartless. Pureblood Heartless are Heartless born from the darkness in people's hearts; natural. Emblem Heartless are Heartless produced by Ansem's machines; artificially. Or (2) What happens once they're destroyed. Pureblood Heartless don't release hearts, Emblem Heartless do. (3) By physical differences. Pureblooded Heartless have two main physical characteristics: dark coloration, and yellow eyes. Emblem Heartless don't have such consistent appearances. Instead, Emblem Heartless can take many forms and shapes, though mainly appear as something that would seem naturally in the world.--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 00:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

== UK convention for quotation marks and punctuation, or US convention? ==

Basically, when dealing with terms (not quotes), do we prefer that the quotation marks go inside or outside of punctuation?

Personally, I prefer the UK convention because (1) considering that this franchise does like to put odd punctuation in sometimes, it doesn't give the impression of anything other than the actual term being the term, (2) it makes it clear it's a term, not a quote, (3) the rule doesn't change depending on what type of punctuation comes next, and (4) I, personally, think punctuation inside the quotation marks looks ugly as hell.

For what it's worth, according to a few sources I've found, US convention allows for using single quotation marks (') to enclose terms, in which case punctuation would be left outside the marks, as in the UK convention. I would support that too.

Any thoughts? This is something that's been bugging me for a looooong time.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

UK convention, and pretty much for the same reasons you listed. Especially 2-4. And you're right, you can use the single quotation marks to enclose terms, but it's common to use the double quotation marks.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 04:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
::I'm all for US punctuation, simply on the grounds that this Wiki uses American English. As stated in the Manual of Style. The only reason why we use anything British ("grey" instead of "gray") is because that's what's in the games. In MY opinion, punctuation OUTSIDE the quotation marks is "ugly as hell." Read [http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm this]. Doing something simply because one or two or three or four or five people find something "ugly as hell" IS NOT GROUNDS TO BE GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE LANGUAGE IN WHICH WE WRITE (American English)! At one point someone stated that we could put punctuation outside the quotes for non-quotes ("Woeflower" is a combination of the terms "woe" and "flower".), and punctuation inside the quotes for actual quotes ("You make a good other."). I'd be willing to meet our British supporters halfway and compromise on that. But otherwise, I find it quite bothersome how people are letting personal opinion get in the way of what is correct. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 06:57, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
:::Do you really have to write things in ALL CAPS? I do agree with your point, to put punctuation outside non-quotes and inside quotes. Because it makes sense to put the punctuation inside the quotation marks when quoting a sentence, but not when quoting a single word. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 07:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
UK convention, not solely for the matter of aesthetics, but also what has been normally used within the Kingdom Hearts universe. And for me (who grew up with a fair bit of Americanisms), using the US convention would be confusing as heck. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 11:19, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

EDIT 13:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC): I take that back. US convention. Thing is, I always thought using single quotations for terms was a UK thing anyway. I have been used to using <nowiki>' '</nowiki> for terms and " " for quotes, because of what UK books have used. '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="dodgerblue">Trois</font>]][[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="darkslateblue">nyx</font>]]''' 13:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
::ENX: Placing punctuation outside the marks for terms only ''is'' the main difference between the conventions -- it's basically the only reason I'm asking. Also, for clarification to everyone, "UK convention" and "US convention" are basically, like, the names -- both conventions are used about the same frequency on both sides of the Atlantic.
::So, just for clarification -- all I'm requesting is that ENX's sample sentence would be worded that way. I like UK convention because it doesn't merge punctuation into things that didn't already have punctuation. That's it. {{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
:::Naturally, you put the punctuations inside of quotes, but when using them for terms is a different matter. Actually, one of my English teachers last year talked about this to the class and we had a small debate on it. I don't remember what the class said or he said in the end, though. My problem is doing this ("Woeflower.") is because I honestly don't like it as it makes no sense to me. By putting the period inside of the sentence, it's like you're quoting someone, and not truly ending the sentence. It's a peeve of mine, really. I do it in the US convention for school, because that's what English teachers told us to do based that whatever official society that decides these things. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal. We do use American English, after all, and that is like the only rule I take from the British/International English when writing stories.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 00:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

==Updating our MOS==
Hey guys. So, honestly, our Manual of Style is super out of date. As a whole, it hasn't been updated in a long time, so I propose that it's time to update it. I've started a '''draft [[User:KeybladeSpyMaster/Gadget Lab/Project Page 6|here]]''', but it's by no means complete (we're missing standards and formatting for Merchandise articles and all articles in non-mainspace), and there are some sections that I simply don't know how we cover them or what is expected in them (such as the Items and Equipment and Abilities sections). So I'm hoping we could discuss/define these areas so that we can update our dear MOS and give some more consistency on-site. One of the issues is that even our main games articles are not consistent, so that's part of why I'm doing this. Thoughts? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 15:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
::Regarding the "The player" should not be referred to as "they". Use the general "he" part... I want to bring this up since I've been reworking the Foretellers' articles. This was brought up in the past (as seen two sections up), but a few users, including myself, voiced our disagreement with that rule, because the singular "they" is considered a better alternative. When rewriting the Foretellers' articles, I have removed the "he", and I'm extremely careful not to assign any gender pronouns when referring to a player's character, since the player's character can either be a "he" or a "she", y'know? I wanted to ask what is the community's stance is now regarding the general "he" and using the singular "they" when referring to the player.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
:::According to [https://blog.ap.org/products-and-services/making-a-case-for-a-singular-they the Associated Press], the term "they" and it's derivatives can be used in rare cases. This is the grammatical ruling. However, there is technically no grammatically correct gender-neutral pronoun that is entirely accepted in American English. "They" is generally accepted in common usage. I personally prefer to use "they", it's just easier and more commonly accepted. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 04:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I'm with "they" as for the above reasons. (Seriously, ya'll took all my reasons.) {{User:Chainoffire/sig}} 06:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
:::EDIT: Also, this was actually covered [[KHWiki talk:Manual of Style#" "The player" cannot be referred to as "they". Use the general "he".|above]] as well. {{User:Chainoffire/sig}} 06:49, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
::::We had a discussion about the singular they [[Forum:The Singular "They"|here]]. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 08:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::Well, good to know the stance hasn't changed since the last time we talked about it. :) That means we can finally revise that rule when we update the MOS.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:18, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::I vehemently support using "they" as a gender-nonspecific singular. ''However'', stuff like Back Cover and the KHUX intro video has pretty clearly depicted the male Player avatar as the "default" or, for owl-intensive porpoises, "canon" version.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:32, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
From the looks of it, there's pretty much consensus for us removing that rule, so I've removed it. What about the rest? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
::I'd like to address the US or UK convention. This was also previously discussed before (see above section), and there was a small debate about it with some users, but not all. What is the community's stance about using the UK's rules of punctuation, in which all punctuation marks are place inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not? As before, I am fully supportive of using the UK convention of punctuation.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Very support.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Wait, is that supposed to be a UK only rule? I was told in school here in the US that we always put the punctuation inside the quotes unless it's not part of the actual quote, as in Did he say, "Fight the Heartless"? I want to make sure I understand the grammar rule being debated here. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 03:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::I agree with placing punctuation in quotation marks only if they are part of the quote. As for the draft, I noticed some things that are not completely accurate:
*The example for character page naming says "Mulan, not Fa Mulan" as an example, but the page is called [[Fa Mulan]]. (She's actually called that in one scene, so the example just needs to be removed or replaced)
*"Use the original name of a subject as the title, and add any additional or later names as redirects to the original name." We don't do this for everything, though. For example, [[Surveillance Robot]] does use the first name, but [[Hungry]] and [[Cross Slash]] use the most recent name/spelling. We should make a clear rule about this, especially with KHUX re-translating some names.
:::::I think we should split up the Item and Equipment Articles in Item Articles, Weapon Articles, and Equipment Articles. Equipment Articles (accessories and armor) basically only need a Design and Recipe section, like the [[Diamond Ring]] for example. Most other stuff is handled in the template. Items require a Mechanics, Design, Recipe, Drops, Treasure, Other methods, and Synthesized items section. Weapons have a Story, Design and Gameplay section. Most of these sections are optional though, as not all weapons are part of the story, and the KH accessories have no image, so no design. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::The consensus has long been that if the games give a full "legal" name, that's what we use. We don't hobble ourselves to the journal name, or [[Xemnas]] would be "Mysterious Figure".
::::::As far as I'm aware, the consensus for differing translations has been to use the most recently localized, not the first.
::::::"Use Roman numerals instead of Arabic numerals for titles except when it is the official name. " is redundant to "use official terms at all times".
::::::"Do not use abbreviations. Kingdom Hearts II should be written in full, never use KHII or KH2. " This does not match the wiki consensus. We allow the usage of the official acronyms.
::::::"Avoid using the second person pronoun (you) in articles except for strategies and quotes." This does not match the wiki consensus, which is to avoid using "you" unless literally referring to the human player -- Sora is considered Sora.
::::::"Articles created should be limited to the Kingdom Hearts sphere" -- This is not settled consensus, and I personally think we should be creating articles for anything that is within the scope of the official KH franchise, like events and, yes, staff (but probably on a list page).
::::::"For introductory sentences, circular definitions are not allowed, because they do not explain anything to the reader" -- This is unenforceable. The series uses many low-effort names like "Master Xehanort's Keyblade" that can't really be explained beyond that.
::::::"(there's no coding for that anyway). " There is, we just don't do it.
::::::"Wikilinking is limited to the first occurrence of the word or phrase. " Linked once per article, sure but it should be linked in the most useful location. It doesn't always help to have a mass of blue at the start of the page.
::::::"The first letters of all original weapons e.g. Keyblade, Buster Sword, Identity Disc, must be capitalized." -- redundant to "all official terms should be capitalized as in the published materials".
::::::"Speculation should not be added into any article whatsoever unless there is enough information to substantiate it. If the article concerns a character about to be released, there shall be a section for speculation, but do not add speculation into the Trivia page." -- Nope. No speculation, whatsoever, for any reason, in perpetuity. If it's on the wiki, it needs to be citable to officially published materials or representatives of the franchise.
::::::"Categories on Kingdom Hearts Wiki should be in-wiki and in-game." -- Not clear what this means.
::::::"The remaining articles (which are remnants of the merger) should be marked with the Delete template. " -- No, if the original articles were official terms, they should become redirects. The goal is to have every official term be a searchable title that takes the reader to information on that item.
::::::"No extensive research if it is covered by other companies, or has appeared in other films or games (e.g. Disney's Goofy shouldn't be further elaborated in Goofy's article). Priority should go towards the in-game appearance rather than their respective original games/films." -- Agree, but please elaborate that these Origin sections should prioritize Disney details that are reflected in the KH depiction, not just "in house of mouse, Scar ate a donut.".{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Ok, so I've made some changes to my draft to accommodate some of these ideas. 
*We need to come to a consensus on whether or not we use the most recent localization/name, or the original. Either way, they all get articles, it's just deciding which is the main one and which are redirects.
*TSH, I agree with splitting up the Items and Equipment section. I kept it together because I'm not too familiar with that area of articles, so I wasn't sure how to best describe the formatting that should be followed. I'll try and incorporate your ideas into my Word document that I make edits to while I'm at work tomorrow (that way I don't lose my progress).
*Kryten, I did a quick search and have found very few, almost no instances of the use of acronyms like KHII or KH3D in actual article text. We generally use it as tags (such as {{tname|KHII}}) and infoboxes, and in quoting interviews or hidden comments within the page, but never in the article text. I think using abbreviations, even if they're official, is a little less professional than what we're going for here, at least in the actual article text.
*We should definitely discuss how broad we want our coverage on the wiki to be and come to a consensus on that. I'm down to cover everything if we can come up with a good format for each kind of article so we can add here.
*A lot of what you brought up, Kryten, is actually removed or rewritten in the draft article I wrote. Example: the speculation bit was removed and reworded under "Trivia" as not counting as trivia. I also wrote a draft for our Help:Editing page that more explicitly states that Trivia is not allowed; we could add that same language to the MOS if we want. I also deleted the "Deleted Articles" section because I don't feel it fits here. It'd probably be best to merge that into an introductory Delete policy on the Articles for Deletion page.
I'll work on the rest of the suggestions in the morning when I go to work. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::Ah, I was looking at the wrong page.
::As far as localizations, the consensus is definitely to use the most recent. That's why [[Hungry]] is a full article, instead of [[Mystery]] or [[Serenity]]. We do have a backlog of things to be moved to new titles, for pages with many links going towards them.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
:::To answer you question, KeybladeSpyMaster, the U.S. convention is when the commas and periods are placed inside the quotation marks. This has always been the rule taught to students in the U.S., as far as I'm aware of, anyway. The U.K. convention of punctuation is called logical quotation or logical punctuation, which all punctuation marks are place inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not. So, for example:
::::U.S: Demyx refers to Saïx as "X-face."
::::U.K: Demyx refers to Saïx as "X-face".
:::So, the consensus is to use the U.K. convention on the wiki.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::Alright, so I've updated my draft to reflect what was mentioned here. We should definitely discuss if we want to expand our coverage on the wiki as Kryten has suggested, but for now, we should implement the MOS as is and then update it as we continue to make changes to our policies and rules on-site. Is there anything else we're presently doing that isn't covered in the draft? Or can we go ahead an update the MOS? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 17:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

<<bump>> {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 20:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
:I think we're good to go. No one raised any objections. The MOS is a WIP, definitely. For now, let's just update the MOS with the draft we currently have and add and change things along the way, like you suggested. Sounds good?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:41, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
::I went ahead and updated the MOS. Like you said, it's still a work in progress, as the wiki as a whole is. As far as I can tell, I addressed all the concerns brought up, but if I missed any, by all means, go ahead and add them. This is just super important with Kingdom Hearts III coming and, more likely than not, all the new users hyped by the game. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
:::I made a slight edit to it, adding the U.K. punctuation rule and cut out some lines I thought was redundant. Maybe we should add a "General Writing Style" section onto the page? I've seen a few wikias have them, detailing some basic rules, like not using contractions in articles because they're considered informal, reminding users that vandalism is prohibited, and that events that happen in X or Y isn't canon to the main series.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:33, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

I've become aware that KSM's rewrite of the MoS in 2017 removed the restriction on trivia that stated "If merging bits of trivial information to the main body is possible, then by all means, do so."

The MoS ''was'' approved by review of the community at the time, but no one specifically mentioned this change. As such, I'd like to note it here to provide the community the opportunity to confirm that said change is intentional and acceptable, or if we want to retain the previous rule on only allowing trivia that cannot be made to fit in the rest of the article.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
:Proposal to re-add previous restriction back into MoS. Anything that cannot be intelligently incorporated into the main article/subsections should then be placed in trivia as just that: trivial tid-bits. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 18:50, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

== Order of sections on item pages ==

Currently, item pages are ordered by obtainment method. Which means that if you want to find out where to find a certain item in a game, you have to check each section. Wouldn't it be easier to sort them by game, like how the world Game: pages are organized? It would make it much easier to see where to get an item. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
:Unless someone can argue otherwise, I'm down for sorting by game. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 20:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
::I think that would be fine, for the sake of convenience!--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

==Design & Personality Sections Order==
I've been meaning to bring this up, but keep forgetting: I've noticed when doing minor fixes for certain characters' pages, the order of Design and Personality sections are swapped. MoS has it Personality section goes first before Design, but I'd like to recommend we switch this around so that Design goes first instead of Personality. Personally, I've always found that to be a better order to follow.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
:I agree. For some reason that does make more sense. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
::I don't think I can put into words very eloquently, but I guess it's because Designs are more important than Personality sections and should be put first ahead of it? ^_^; Is there any objections?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:34, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Since no objections were raised, I'm assuming that everyone is okay with the change.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

== Music pages for arrangements ==

For clarification, I propose we add a note about arrangements of songs going under the original article, rather than their own.

As for why, it makes sense that tracks like "Hand in Hand -Reprise-", "Olympus Coliseum -The Shining Summit-", and "Rage Awakend -The Origin-" would fall under the same page as the original tracks; it's really no different than the ''KHII'' version of "A Day in Agrabah" being in the same article as the original arrangement. Clarifying this in the MoS would also help us avoid another "Blast Away!" situation where we have four articles for the same song.

This would also apply to tracks such as "Kairi", "Wave of Darkness", and "L'Eminenza Oscura", whose versions explicitly fall under separate articles in the current MoS. This is the only real change, but "Kairi" already is consolidated into one article, so it's just updating the MoS to reflect more current edits. [[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 22:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

== Game abbreviations for infobox tabs ==

We need to come up with consistent abbreviations for infobox tabs; as it is now, worlds, items, enemies, and music tracks use different ones. (Example: for ''Re:coded'', worlds use "KHc", tracks use "KHREC", characters use "KHRec", and some pages use "KHRCO".) There are two main standards in use: all caps (KHRECOM, KHBBS, KHX) and varying case (KHReCOM, KHBbS, KHχ). And then some random articles use a third way (KHRe:COM). Plus, while most of the time the HD collections are done like "KHHD2.5", some pages use "KHIIHD". We should make a list of abbreviations so that all articles are consistent with each other. –[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 15:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
:I agree that we should standardize this. I think all caps might be the best option (with the exception of the χ). At the top of [[Template:c]] is a list of abbreviations that are used for pages with game tags. It might be good to follow that for consistency. For the HD collections, I think "KHHD2.5" might be better, as "KHIIHD" looks like it's a version of KHII, like "KHIIFM" or "KHIIIRM". {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
@@ Line 316: / Line 316: @@
 We need to come up with consistent abbreviations for infobox tabs; as it is now, worlds, items, enemies, and music tracks use different ones. (Example: for ''Re:coded'', worlds use "KHc", tracks use "KHREC", characters use "KHRec", and some pages use "KHRCO".) There are two main standards in use: all caps (KHRECOM, KHBBS, KHX) and varying case (KHReCOM, KHBbS, KHχ). And then some random articles use a third way (KHRe:COM). Plus, while most of the time the HD collections are done like "KHHD2.5", some pages use "KHIIHD". We should make a list of abbreviations so that all articles are consistent with each other. –[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 15:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 :I agree that we should standardize this. I think all caps might be the best option (with the exception of the χ). At the top of [[Template:c]] is a list of abbreviations that are used for pages with game tags. It might be good to follow that for consistency. For the HD collections, I think "KHHD2.5" might be better, as "KHIIHD" looks like it's a version of KHII, like "KHIIFM" or "KHIIIRM". {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
-::So, something like this:
-::{| border="1"
-!Game||Abbreviation
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts''||KH
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Final Mix''||KHFM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories''||KHCOM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories''||KHRECOM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts II''||KHII
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix''||KHIIFM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days''||KHD
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep''||KHBBS
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix''||KHBBSFM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts coded''||KHC
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded''||KHREC
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance''||KH3D
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance HD''||KH3DHD
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts χ[chi]''||KHχ
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Union χ[Cross]''||KHUχ
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts χ Back Cover''||KHχBC
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep -A fragmentary passage-'' ||KH0.2
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts III''||KHIII
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts III Re Mind''||KHIIIRM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Dark Road''||KHDR
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Melody of Memory''||KHMOM
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts Missing-Link''||KHML
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts IV''||KHIV
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX''||KHHD1.5
-|-
-|''Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX||KHHD2.5
-|}
-::Seems good to me. –[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 14:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)