Editing Forum:World Article Improvement

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{EO|time=14:13, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=The World articles are quite unorthodox in my opinion. While the content is fine, sections do not match for one another. I've found absent Heartless lists, and possibly absent characters and other sections. 

*''I remember there being a dispute about including Heartless in certain worlds rather than others, as "unique, One-World-Only Heartless" don't appear in Timeless River or Olympus Coliseum, two pages I've found the above to be problematic. Yet look at the Soldier and other repetitive enemies we list. Is it really that big a deal that we say Aeroplanes, Shadows, Minute Bombs, and others appear? Just walk over to Photoshop and recolor the appropriate images to be black and white. Easy. Same thing for Olympus, or at least the Underworld. All Heartless updates to a world in ''Days'' should also be made.''

I also was scanning through the articles, and found some pages not exactly "pageworthy." Not sure how everyone feels about bringing the tab system outside of the Boss Articles, but for pages like the [[Chamber of Repose]], it should either be added to the Universe of Kingdom Hearts, or have the article in a tab dubbed "Chambers of Repose and Waking" as an area of its respected world. Several operations could be executed this way, taking the [[Underworld]] as an example.

I personally have no idea whether we find this message to contain good ideas or not. At least they're things to be considered. As we're reconstructing the Character Pages, I'd say Worlds follow, and then possibly enemies? We'd then have to endure the long process of cleaning stubbed articles.}}

==Discussion==
{{KrytenKoro|Personally, I think a good format would be like this:
*Infobox: Using most recent world image (not location art)
*Lead: Official name of world with nihongo, which realm, which game, and what it's based on. One sentence summarizing it's basic role in the plot.
*Areas: Does not have to be organized by headers, but if not, then anchors are needed. Short description of each room, using official name (!very important, almost all of our world articles use incorrect names!), with nihongo if possible.
*Story: Chronological plot, covering the events in the world seen in the game. We might possibly cover events mentioned but not seen, such as the discovery of Castle Oblivion or loss of Pride Land (KH1). Probably organized by game, since there is no Days/CoM overlap (Castle Oblivion is only visited by Roxas after CoM). However, how would we cover the facsimile worlds? They're not the real world, but it would be extremely awkward covering them all on Castle Oblivion's page. There's also the possibility of creating a separate page for them ("Castle Oblivion/Agrabah", for example)
*Characters/Heartless/Nobodies: All characters and enemies that reside within the world semi-permanently. Organization members organized as Nobodies.
*Treasures: List of treasures, listing room (official name!) and any special requirements.
*Trivia: Only the really important stuff, though.
*Music and Art: That music template we have, any previous world images, logos, and possibly concept location art.
*Directory box
}}
{{EO|time=18:53, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|text=That's exactly my opinion. If we can work out every little factor and at least "kill off" the lesser articles while still retaining the information, that'd be great. As for the Hallucinated Worlds (perhaps the category title), some placeholder title that perhaps dubbed it "Agrabah (Memory)" or something along those lines.}}
{{HOO|time=19:28, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|text=Some others things that were overlooked:
*Trinities for KH1
*Dalmatians for KH1
*Moogle shops in KH2
*Eventually we will have all the Puzzle Pieces from KH2FM included. I am working on that as I type this.}}
{{EO|time=19:35, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|text=Perfect. But based on what Kryten said, where would we include these in the order? A mini-games heading w/ the sub-headings saying "Puppies" and "Trinities"? We all ready have pages and templates for that, though... And keep up the good work, HoO (Mr. Owl?)}}
{{HOO|time=20:29, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|text=Instead of putting Puppies and Trinities under Mini-games, they should be under a section called Sidequests. It should include:
#Dalmatians
#Trinities
#Puzzle Pieces
#Mushroom XIII (if necessary)
#Optional Boss Battles (if necessary. Basically Kurt Zisa, Phantom, Sephiroth, Lingering Sentiment, Absent Silhouettes and any others)
I thought there was discussion once that we would add mini-games to the world page sort of how [[100 Acre Wood]] is now. If we ever do that, that is why these things should be under a Sidequests heading because that's what they are. For the Mushroom XIII and Optional Boss Battles, we wouldn't have to describe the whole boss battle or Mushroom XIII game but just put a link to the main article and state that it is optional.}}
{{EO|time=20:34, November 3, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=Yes. That makes sense. My only concern is that we would repeat too much from existing articles...}}
{{BebopKate|time=03:18, November 5, 2009 (UTC)|text=Geez, it seems like I redid all those articles just yesterday. ^_^  Then again, we had two less games and two less special editions to worry about last year.

I like the Sidequests heading for the extra bits.  And yes, there is a bit of repetition between some of the master lists and the world lists, but I think it's good to keep those specifics in each world.  Imagine, for example, if you are trying to find all the Dalmatians in a particular world and you come here off of a search engine...there they are!

Some people are okay with a master list that has all 101 Dalmatians on it in numerical order, but I find it frustrating because I can never remember where I've been; I'd much rather have a world by world breakdown so I can say, "Okay, got all of the ones in Traverse Town, but I need to go back to Atlantica," or something like that.  To me, it's part of wiki usability; not everyone takes in information in the same way, and we should try to support help as many types of users as possible.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, as part of the timeline discussion, I was going to bring up that the games make it clear that any sidequests ''are'' canon (Sora has conquered the Hades Cup according to KH2, Xion absorbs Sora's memories of Kurt Zisa), so I think optional bosses (including the Mushrooms) would work within the plot section, and list the enemies in the Heartless section.

For trinities, dalmations, and puzzle pieces, the jiminy journals treat them very close to how they treat treasures, and thematically, they would work well as a separate table also kept under the Treasures header.

Moogle and other shops, and their listings, would fit well within or next to the Areas section.

Mini-games and Missions is a header we definitely need; are there any non mini-game missions besides Sephiroth and the Gullwings, though? I think it would fit best right before the Treasures header, as Mini-games are kind of like a cross between "Plot" and "Picking up everything in the game".}}
{{EO|time=19:55, November 5, 2009 (UTC)|text=I'm going with Kryten's idea on this. There aren't really "Meet so-and-so again" missions other than the latter, so what he's selected as formatting is gold. We don't want to make the pages overwhelming, but we don't want to be too lacking, either. I'm sure if we all pitch in once we make a unanymous decision, Bebop won't go COMPLETELY insane :P}}
{{Peetzaman|text=I'd like to help with the japanese, but they all probably have that done by now}}
{{HOO|time=15:19, November 6, 2009 (UTC)|text=We also need to update the Enemies section for Days. Should we split the enemies section up by type (Heartless, Nobodies, Other} and then by game? Or should we do it by game and then by type?}}
{{GS|time=[[User:Guardian Soul|Guardian Soul]] 19:32, November 6, 2009 (UTC)|text=All you need to do is split them by games.  We don't need to list them under specific types, you'll know the type when you click on the enemy.  Take a look at [[Beast's Castle]] for an example.}}
{{EO|time=19:51, November 6, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=GS is 100% percent correct. However, I wouldn't list enemies that don't have renders on the Wiki yet in the gallery, but in a list. So it'd look like :

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
===Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days===
<gallery>
Image:Sergeant.png|[[Sergeant]]
Image:Wavecrest.png|[[Wavecrest]]
</gallery>
*[[Bubble Beat]]
*[[Windstorm]]
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Very short, and incorrect, I know, but I'm only setting an example. Once we have renders, just add the link and image to the respected gallery. So we'd do this for ALL the games, like Beast's Castle, correct?}}

{{HOO|time=02:07, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|text=Are we going to bold the names for bosses in the enemies area? I have seen some world pages have that and some not.

We should pick a world (preferably one in both KH and KHII) and update it to these new specifications. We can split up the tasks for jobs for all of us and then use it as an example for the rest of the worlds. We would probably need to tweak the MoS a little too.}}
{{GS|time=02:10, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|text=Either work on Land of Dragons, or Deep Jungle since it won't be appearing in any other games.  And yes, bold the bosses.}}
{{HOO|time=02:51, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|text=Should we add characters to the enemies section? Like Shan-Yu and Hayabusa in Land of Dragons or Clayton and Sabor in Deep Jungle. 

Are we adding Mini-games to the world page or no? Please take a look at [[The Land of Dragons]] and [[Deep Jungle]] to see what else can be added on to what I already changed.}}
{{EO|time=17:54, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=I'd definitely say NO for the Character enemies. That section is for Lesser Heartless and Nobodies, with bosses bolded. I'd say for character bosses and character Nobodies, we put them in a "boss" section, perhaps under :

*Final Fantasy
*Disney
*Heartless
*Nobodies}}

{{GS|time=20:13, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|text=I disagree with you EO.  That's absolutely unnecessary and just takes up more room.  The character enemies are still enemies, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to list them under each game along with the other enemies.}}
{{EO|time=23:23, November 8, 2009 (UTC)|text=Well yeah, but that's extremely redundant. Why not just indicate in the CHARACTERS section if they are bosses or not, bolded like Heartless and Nobodies? I'd say we first finish the Mini-Games/Sidequests debate.}}
{{HOO|time=00:36, November 9, 2009 (UTC)|text=I agree with Guardian Soul. In the enemies section, we have links to the enemy page. If we just bold the name of the character in the characters section, there will be no link to the (Boss) page.}}
{{EO|time=20:21, November 9, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=Fine. Do as you see fit. I just find the latter to be extremely redundant and disorganized. I suppose if we format like this :

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
==Characters==
<gallery>
Image:DaysHades.png|[[Hades]]
Image:DaysHercules.png|[[Hercules]]
</gallery>
==Enemies==
<gallery>
Image:Wavecrest.png|'''[[Wavecrest]]'''
Image:DaysHades.png|'''[[Hades (Boss)|Hades]]'''
Image:Sergeant.png|[[Sergeant]]
</gallery>
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So if characters applied to both categories, they'd have a character page linked in "characters" and a boss page linked in "enemies" with their link bolded. Is that correct? If so, then what about bosses in worlds that are only temporary residents? Are we still dividing into lesser Noboides and Heartless like we currently do, as well? If character repetition in these categories is to take place, then we should at least use different images for each. The whole "temporary resident thing" would also mean tampering with the character section. Again, MoS changes would be needed.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Comments on areas - how would we cover the areas in Days? Many are straight from either KH1 or 2, but with added areas. Do we cover the entire list, with redundancies, or do we say "X in Days is based on its layout in KH1, but with these added areas: ...."?

Also, do we want to sort the enemy gallery by game at all, or just let readers figure it out by reading the linked pages?

For character gallery, we need to discuss where the cutoff for appeared characters is. Is it "as long as it actually appears and is not just an image", or what?}}

{{EO|time=[[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|EternalNothingnessXIII]] 21:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)|talktext=I'd just make a note in each returning area's summary. That's another thing we should do, rather than list the areas, put in a short description.

I think the sorting by game for the galleries is what we'd need, but on the other hand, it could just take up space and be a bit of a stretch. I'd categorize this info as "Undecided" for now. 

For the character section, it should be JUST THE WORLD'S RESIDENTS! Otherwise, we'd see Sora, Donald, and Goofy on each page, along with the occasional Org member. Then again, since that's what the in-game Journal does, we could separate into "Temporary" and "Residents", but that would take up space.}} 
==Summary==
''To correct this, please strike out the section and add the correction. Please do not add comments in this space.''
''Note: In general, treat FM stuff as the final version of the game, so use it but don't separate it unless there are important revisions. However, don't use FM recolors.''

Headers/Sections:
#Infobox (using most recent world image)
#Lead: Official name of world with nihongo and what games it appears in, description of its realm and what it is based on. One sentence summarizing basic role in plot. Use info from "Observation" missions in Days where possible, please use sourcing
#Areas: Organized in order of appearance, with each area getting it's own short paragraph describing room. These paragraphs use invisible anchors, and the name has the official name from the game (no matter how redundant - if it says "Cave of Wonders: x", put that), with nihongo as we can get it.
#Shops: Official name (Moogle names, Peddler name), listing of items and prices. If these change, do a row in the table that says "Inventory after event x". For KH2 in which Moogle Shops amass inventory as it is discovered, only cover the original (unique) inventory.
#Story: Chronological plot of important events which occur in that world, and basic summary of the character's story in it. Esp. for Days, gloss over the finer details and stick to important plot. Don't cover CoM plot here. Use [[Template:Storylink]]. Side quests count as plot, but need to have an actual story (i.e., not the Postcard quest)
**Corollary: For events mentioned in the world's past, use direct quotes, and say "according to". If it's a flashback, treat it as a during-story event.
#Mini-Games: Official name, description of goals (including Jiminy Goal) and prizes. Possibly a shot walkthrough.
#Treasures: List of treasures, organized by game, then type, then alphabetically, listing the room found in (official name) and whether the treasure is in a chest, and any special requirements for getting it (same column for last two). After this table, have list for trinities, dalmatians, and puzzle pieces.
#Characters (gallery): Gallery using clean CGI images of all characters which appear semi-permanently in world, arranged alphabetically, regardless of importance. Link names where we have articles for them. If we don't have an image, just use thumbnail bit without gallery image.
#Enemies (gallery): Gallery using clean CGI images of all enemies which appear in that world, using the ''style'' in which they appear in that world. Arranged by game, then type, then alphabetically, including character bosses.
#Development: Info on the world's development and other design info. Only use if we have it, but absolutely don't place this info in trivia. (Ex: Pride Land removed from KH1, Deep Jungle removed from CoM)
#Trivia
#Music and Art: All world (not character) songs, any alternate world images, all logos, and location art (within reason).
#See Also: or just Directory Box if nothing else to see