Editing Forum:Wikia stealing resources?

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{ErryTalk|time=02:32, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|kk=Okay so I went to the old wiki, to get to templates so I can audit, so then I decide "eh, why not look through the uploaded pictures?" and I see they've taken the Battle Missions emblem that I extracted from the game... now, what would this be called? Plagiarism? Because it seems so. You don't see us going to their wiki taking their information... discuss.}}

{{Uxie|time=03:21, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|text=Wait. Did we mention that they cannot steal pictures from our wiki? They should know better than to steal, y'know.

Plus, I don't know how they were able to get that picture. It's ether they got it off of Google (which usally stores pictures from other websites), or they came here to <s>steal</s> obtain it. Just a thought.}}

{{ErryTalk|time=03:50, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|cj=I just took a quick Google images search for it and didn't find anything, at all. So it's clear that they didn't get it from there, the only source is either my hard drive or the wiki. And only one is viewable to anyone.}}

{{Uxie|time=04:13, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|text=<small>Han roto el octavo mandamiento. Esto es malo, ya sabes.</small> I guess they just wanted images, so they snuck into our wiki and took the picture. Not many people are able to hack into other people's computers from another part of the world, y'know.}}

{{17m|text= Yes, it is called plagiarism. Crono (and Kryten, if I remember correctly) already said that copying contents from the articles here to there isn't permitted, since it's an act of plagiarism. Same thing should apply for this problem. Besides, those images were ripped by you, through your own effort, it's not right for them to take the images just like that, at least they should've asked for your permission. I say give them a warning, and if you don't allow them to keep the images, they should delete them from the wiki.}}

{{Asif|shoevil=Not only is it plagiarism, it also ties this wiki back to theirs, which <u>should not be happening</u>. We should tell the entire wiki, not just the people involved this time, that such behavior isn't acceptable.}}

{{Chitalian8|time=12:40, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|angry= Completely unacceptable, I'll bring it up on a forum over there later.}}

Will you guys calm down? First, is for my use, only. I did it to use it in my PROFILE! Not on an article. I already told Erry about it... You need it erased that badly? Fine, I'll delete it. I can rip it myself... but seriously? You have to make such a big deal...? I even told Erry that I was willingly to delete it if he wanted me to do so. He came and talk to me before making asumptions. I thank him for that.--'''[[User:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=black><big>Dark-En</big>]][[User talk:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=gray><big>igmaXIII</big>]]</font></font> 12:57, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

{{AlVan|time13:23, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|text=Hold on. Regardless of what you guys came up with earlier, don't you think that's a little unfair? This wiki copied that entire wikia for good reasons that I now know, but shouldn't they be able to use this one as their example? Say someone who wants info about kh goes to the wikia instead of this one and it has much less info. I'm not saying that one picture is gonna make a big difference, but can't you guys share? The two wikis are for people to read about Kingdom Hearts, not just for you guys to edit all day because you have nothing else to do at the time or because you think editing is really fun. Think about the big picture.}}

{{Uxie|time=13:28, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|luna=As long as you asked if you can use it, but we cannot tie back to Wikia, y'know. And also, AlVan, I'm not being mean, but we left Wikia because they ignore everyone but themselves, and that they don't care for controversy. I'd say more, but it's so late here...}}

{{neumannz|time=13:39, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|text=There are plenty of reasons why the wikia shouldn't be using our images at all, largely because their focus is no longer the same as ours, but if I'm understanding things right, the important thing is not whether they use it, but whether they use it without giving credit or asking permission.

At any rate, if a lot of images are being taken, be sure to approach the one responsible (civilly, please) and let them know the problem with what they're doing.}}

{{UnknownChaser|time=Time is base on the reality of our fantasy.|Noctis=*ahem* I think with the Battle Mission emblem, this is the 3rd time that this happen. First was when EJ uploaded a render of the AotM, 2nd was when a render of the Eliminator, and 3rd is the BM's emblem. Also when I was over there, I was looking at there BM version of the page and saw that it was a C/P of our version, just rewritten.}}

{{Asif|shosad=@ Darkheart: I posted my comment before I saw everything with you and Erry. Now that I know the whole story, I understand where the confusion came from. 

However, as UnknownChaser mentioned above, images have been stolen from here before. You, the Wikia staff, need to make sure that trend stops. Understood?}}

I believe you mean me, right? No biggie about the name. Anyhow, I didnt knew about that. The AoTM was actually never used, because maggosh considered it bad quality, and that as the wikia is now fan-related, we can take the liberties of using "fan images" like those models. And... so that Eliminator render came from here? I didnt knew. But I really didnt wanted to use that image for the wikia in itself. I didnt knew who got it, but as soon as Erry approached me, I explained everything and he let me use it as long as I give credit. That is what happened about the Battle Mission Emblem.--'''[[User:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=black><big>Dark-En</big>]][[User talk:Dark-EnigmaXIII|<font color=gray><big>igmaXIII</big>]]</font></font> 14:16, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

{{Sove|time=14:32, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|roxastalk=Face it, the only thing they are obliged to do is credit the author, this wiki is licensed with Creative Commons - Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0). We are able to take the uncredited images down but we can't do anything to the images that are credited.

However, they still can't use copyrighted material without permission (like images made by Square Enix's employees).}}
{{LapisScarab|time=15:40, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|text=@AlVan: This Wiki and that Wiki are two entirely different Wikis. They have distinct purposes. This Wiki is focused toward information, that one is more fansite and user-oriented. We did not copy anything from the Wikia-Wiki; we moved all of the information (that we wrote and compiled in the first place) from that web address to this one, with the understanding that we were to be a seperate entity from then on. If we were to take info from that Wiki ''now'', it would be copying. }}

{{Darkheart3|time={{User:Darkheart3/Autosig}}23:25, 10 May 2011 (EDT)|ansem=Sorry about the Eliminator thing, that was me.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Meh, this matter is... weird. On one hand, you're absolutely correct; plagiarism is a ''huge'' no-no, especially now that we've made it clear we want nothing to do with the wikia-wiki. I have had my work plagiarized and was devastated, enraged, even. It isn't cool.

On the other hand, they're just ''images''. It ''is'' possible to pick images up from google, unlike article sections and template designs. I know that isn't the case here, but still. I don't think it is a very huge deal if people use images. I mean, it helps when you, you know, ''credit'' where you got that image from, which the wikia-wiki clearly didn't do, but think about it -- we don't do that either. Example: the huge, beautiful rendered images such as [[:File:Xigbar Days.png|this one]]. We got that off of some french site. I don't see a credit there. Unless we want to make a policy that says "you ''must'' supply the source you obtained your image from", let's not worry about it, 'cause it's not really a big deal... unless it's one of those ripped renders that folks like Shard conjures up, like all the item images: while they aren't ours, so to speak, they came from our resources and we would appreciate it if people acknowledged that. We're a ''wiki''. It's our ''job'' to supply information, images included. I've seen tons of images online that have our images used in them. If it really bothers us that people are using our resources, then we should make a bunch of policies and watermark all of our images. Which we shouldn't do. ''We'' would be the thieves then. Everyone gets their images somewhere, why not here? I dunno if it's just me -- I ''like'' it when people use our images. It makes me proud to know that our image database is so good that people want to use it. <!--Please note that this doesn't apply to articles and templates. Those are different matters entirely.-->}}

{{ErryTalk|time=01:44, 12 May 2011 (EDT)|glados=No, I was talking about images that were personally edited/ripped/etc. by US, such as the Mushroom images which I'd supplied, .gifs, Shard and IZerox's work. Renders are fine because they are official material released from a source of Square Enix, not ripped by us with the use of programs and stuff. I brought this up because I had extracted the Battle Mission emblem, I didn't find it on some site and upload it here. It was done with my effort. And I don't want other people to gain from my work, unless I am credited and gain some part of the recognition it is getting.}}
{{LA|Vtext=I see where you're coming from. You have every reason to feel upset.

You need to see it this way: as soon as you uploaded the image(s) to the wiki, those images no longer became "yours"; the moment you did so, they became "images on the internet", accessible and usable by anyone. Though you feel strongly about getting the recognition you deserve, you sacrificed that recognition when you put those images up onto the internet, namely a wiki, an organization that uses images under fair use that aren't "owned", "claimed" or the like by anyone. It's impossible to force everyone or anyone to credit you. If you feel so strongly about the way people handle the images you extract, you should watermark them.<!--I'm not trying to argue, sorry, I'm just feeling very lawyer-y.-->}}

{{ErryTalk|time=02:49, 12 May 2011 (EDT)|glados=Meh, I just don't find it moral to take something without consent, especially when it's between two sites that were once one. Let's say you worked with someone for a while, then you left the, they came over to your house, saw your ideas and used them for themselves. Now, would you like that or not? This is similar to that case.}}
{{LA|Vtext=<s>No, it's not, considering that it was ''images'' that were taken, not "ideas" such as templates and article sections. Plus, those images were never really ''yours'' in the first place, if you want to get technical</s>

I shouldn't be arguing. PLAGIARISM IS WRONG, DON'T DO IT, KIDDOS.

<small>Though I still stand by the point that images are a different case, plagiarism-wise.</small>}}
{{KrytenKoro|It is possible to have an image that is "used with permission" on a wiki with our license.

As for crediting - ALL images must be credited to their provider, according to our license. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT ETHICAL for the wikia to take our images without asking permission to use them.

The image was created by Erry, and used with his permission. If the person who uploaded it to the wiki does not get Erry's permission and credit him in the image, the image should be deleted. It's that simple.

In regards to our own images - yes, we should be listing the sources for any images we upload that we did not create ourselves. I am completely unsure, but I believe that we have a general message saying something like "Unless otherwise specified, all images belong to Square Enix and Disney", though we should make the effort to specify that on the images themselves.}}
{{Sove|time=15:35, 14 May 2011 (EDT)|roxastalk=The morality of their actions may be controversial but no laws have been broken. What LA said to ErryK is absolutely true.

I know a way to get around this problem though, if you're interested. I don't check the wiki often so contact me on IRC if you respond to this (no offence but I just don't come here much).}}
{{KrytenKoro|....no, laws have absolutely been broken. Whether ''we have the higher moral ground'' is less clear, but regardless - the wikia must credit where they get images, and if they are not using the images under fair use (for example, uploading them to decorate a user page), they ABSOLUTELY have to ask permission first.}}
{{Sove|time=12:20, 17 May 2011 (EDT)|roxastalk=ErryK uploaded a picture of his own work here so it automatically became Public Domain, forfeiting any copyrights, no Fair Use is needed to use such pictures.}}
What? Unless someone specifies Public Domain, uploading your own work on a wiki does not instantly become that. The creator of the original work is allowed to choose which license it comes under. If anything, the default should be same as the wiki, which in this case is CC-BY-SA 3.0 -- {{User:Some Color Mage/sig}} 20:02, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

{{Soxra|ienzo=I agree that the work should be credited, because it falls under the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ Creative Commons license]. In such a case, all that needs to be done is have our license tied back here with a link to the author. As much as I know you guys don't want to share the rips from the game, they do come under that license once they are uploaded here, and so can be used on the Wikia with proper credit given.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=2:17am, May 18, 2011 (UTC)}}}}

{{Sove|time=10:19, 18 May 2011 (EDT)|roxastalk=Game rips are under SE's copyright and are Fair Use. ErryK holds no copyright for them. If the wikia can find use for the pics, they can use them and there's nothing we can do, they're not obliged to credit ErryK as he doesn't hold the copyrights for the pictures.}}

{{Soxra|ienzo=Actually, Erry does own the copyright on that particular image as he created it. He doesn't own the content (obviously), but that particular uploaded file does belong to him.

It's like me drawing a picture of a McDonald's sign. Their logo is registered under Fair Use (for distribution and free advertisement), so even though I don't own the McDonald's logo, I created the image and it's under my copyright.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:42pm, May 18, 2011 (UTC)}}}}

I suggest a new liscensing template, which says something along the lines of "This image was created by <nowiki>[[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]]</nowiki>, and is used with permission by this wiki.  All non-consentual use is prohibited by law."  {{The Inexistentsig}} 18:12, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
{{LA|Vtext=Game rips are not created or owned by the user who ripped them. We can't go around saying that they are. ''That'' would be the real plagiarism.}}

{{Soxra|roxas=Are we talking game rips like screenshots, or game rips like renders of models taken from inside the game?|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=4:18am, May 19, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
:Models. <!--Though, thinking about it, Screenshots may apply here...-->--{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 00:38, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
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 {{Soxra|roxas=Are we talking game rips like screenshots, or game rips like renders of models taken from inside the game?|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=4:18am, May 19, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
 :Models. <!--Though, thinking about it, Screenshots may apply here...-->--{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 00:38, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
-{{Soxra|sora=Then, no, whoever rendered it has credit to the work. They don't have permission to sell it or otherwise market the content as their own, but they may distribute the image however they see fit. However, only certain licenses can be applied to it as the content is not owned by the renderer.
-If it's a screenshot, it's Fair Use regardless. (Unless it does not fall under Fair Use clauses, in which case it cannot be redistributed, period.)|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=4:57am, May 19, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
-{{LA|Vtext=They may distribute the image as they see fit, but they can't watermark it or claim it as their property.
-I'd like to point out that ripping things from game files is technically illegal.}}
-{{Soxra|roxas=Correct, they cannot watermark it (as this is a brand of the content), but the image itself (as I said before, not the content) is technically created by them. You mentioned that ripping it is illegal; well, this is true. But it also means that they do own the rights to the image they created, even if it is against the law to create such an image. (Just as you own the rights to any plagiarized software you create, for example; but when you are charged with the crime, the copyright is forfeit.)|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:47am, May 19, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
-:This may be due to my knowledge of game ripping, or lack thereof, but how are ripped images "technically created by them"? --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 02:14, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
-{{Soxra|roxas=It was like I said about taking a picture of a McDonald's sign. You took the picture, and own the photo, but McDonald's owns the rights to the logo and you can only distribute it under certain circumstances. The same applies if you take a picture (or export the render) of content created by someone else (the model from the game).|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=6:45am, May 19, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
-{{LA|Vtext=But that's like saying, "I didn't download this licensed image, I took a screencap of it. That makes it mine." Like taking a ''really good'' photograph. Just because you have it doesn't make it yours, especially if it's a picture of the subject and literally ''nothing else''. That's what ripping is (which is worse than screencapping because it's, you know, illegal).
-But what you're saying makes sense.}}
-{{Soxra|hood=I guess a better comparison is making your own McDonald's logo and taking a picture. It's hard to draw analogies from the virtual world to the physical one; shame it doesn't work like ''Tron''.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=12:10am, May 20, 2011 (UTC)}}}}