Editing Forum:Wiki Thoughts - Please Read

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{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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Alright.  No Daisy here.  These are some serious thoughts and observations I've been seeing going on over the last few months.

# We have had a lot of conflict.  Admins, IRC, formatting, you name it.
# I am getting e-mails, talk page messages, IRC PMs, and so on at least once a week, usually much more, about the crumbling infrastructure of the wiki, usually about how one group of people is totally ruining everything, and then proceeding to get an e-mail from the opposite faction about how ''they're'' ruining everything.
# We have a LOT of new people.  But I see them contributing very little, other than talk page chat.  And I really wonder why.

So, I want all of you...veterans, admins, mods, editors, newbies, bureaucrats...EVERYONE, to stop and read the following sentence below.

<p style="font-size:30pt;">This is only a wiki.</p>

Read it again, if you have to.  Read it as many times as you need to until it sinks in.

We are fussing, fighting, wasting time and energy in our ''real, everyday lives'' on a wiki.  About a video game.  With talking ducks and guys who hit people with giant keys.

So, here's the deal.

We need to back off.  We need to start taking this thing way less seriously.  I'm not saying let the trolls run rampant and we have a second ''Kingdom Hearts'' fanon wiki.  But I am saying that the nitpicking, the rules slamming, and the lack of flexibility needs to stop.  That good faith thing?  That's one of the most important rules in existence.  Real life as well.  Occasionally, it gets you burned, but it makes things better for most everyone in the long run.

We have come a long way from the scraps of info two years ago.  We laid down the law because we had no rules or enforcement.  We now almost have an excess of both.

A wiki is supposed to be fun.  Some people gain that fun from writing entries on their favorite characters.  Some do by making and editing graphics to go in those articles.  Some people enjoy organizing things or gnoming.  Some people like working with other people on a big goal or project.  Some people just like being around other people who enjoy the same things as they do.

So, I say to the following groups:

#Staff and admins, myself included.  We need to ''lighten up''.  We are seriously making this a miserable place to be.  We are editors, same as everyone else, and we need to remember it more than anyone else.  We need to remember that fun from that video game we all played and enjoyed that put us here in the first place.
#Editors, edit.  Write articles.  Add pictures.  Just talk about the series in the forums.  ''Enjoy yourselves.''  That Mirage Arena idea?  That was awesome, and would fit in well with the wiki.  We'll find a way to make it work.
#New editors.  Welcome.  Thank you for wanting to be part of our community.  Help us out.  Ask questions if you're not sure.  Discuss the games you enjoy.  Even if you just go around fixing little things, that's one less thing that needs to be fixed, one little addition that makes the wiki that much better.

As you go around editing and posting, think upon these things.  Think of how you can be the best person you can be here.

In short:

<p style="font-size:30pt;">This is only a wiki.</p>

Thank you.  Now, back to getting excited over ''Birth by Sleep''.

==Discussion==
{{BebopKate|time=18:27, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, Daisy is back. ^_^  '''I don't want arguing or accusations below.  I want good stuff.'''  I want you to write about why you came here, why you enjoy being here, and/or why you like the games.  Consider this a little essay assignment from a grizzled ex-teacher.

Me, I love to write; I'd love to write a book someday.  And I really like wiki editing; it keeps me in practice.  So when I saw that the wiki about my favorite video game series needed a lot of work, I decided to jump in.  I've always loved the designs and style differences of the worlds, so I decided to help fix those up first.  And I stayed.  Because of the games, but also because of all the awesome and interesting new people I met.  I'll have you people know I talk about you and all the interesting facts and stories you tell me in my everyday life.  Seriously.  Well, except the private stuff. ^_-

Anyway, I still love the series.  For me, it's the nostalgia of the games and movies I loved that pulled me in, the mythology and symbolism that intrigued me, and the characters and story that keep me hooked.  When I saw the trailer for ''Birth by Sleep'' (Aqua's voice not withstanding ^_^) I was excited all over again.  I can't wait to play it, to learn how it fits into the existing universe, to get to know new characters and see old friends.  ''Kingdom Hearts'' is just fun, and I hope it will continue to be for as long as it was made.}}
{{SilverCrono|isa=I.. I see what you mean. This whole thing, this wiki.. It's tearing us apart. This used to be, ''should be'', a place where fans of the same thing can get together and talk. Heck, that's why I got here; I'm not the biggest fan of KH, but it's fun. I can't wait to play BBS. I've been around Wikia since January, this year. 

But enough about me. I agree wholeheartedly. We do need to lighten up. And fast, or this whole place is going to die a fiery death. And I'd rather not be here when it does.}}
{{R&D|time=18:46, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|yes=I completly agree with you BK. Also... thanks for supporting the MA! The staff people and some editors need to be more cool headed toward the wiki. As you said, it's just a wiki. And not a life or death issue that will decide the fate of the world<br>

So this is you first important forum as a Bureocrat... ^_^ You are doing a great job. Keep it up.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Long before I joined wikia, I had stalked this wiki, learning every little fact that was on a page.  I never realized until I joined how much politics happened behind the scenes.  What I saw was a cold world, the perfect home for me.  Now that I have joined, I do fell that change is necessary, that wiki evolution must take place at lightspeed in order to save us.'''}}
{{Maggosh|detroit=I'd say it's high time a post like this was made.

As for why I'm here, why I have fun...it's the nostalgic value of the series. But unfortunately, it wasn't always like that. Let me paint a picture for you; it's 2006, I'm in  my last year in junior high and I'm making an effort at maturity. I'm standing in front of my toaster, and I'm looking into the living room with the TV on, as a commercial for KHII comes on, and I see the CG Sora with Donald and Goofy. I thought, "Who the hell would want to fight with a giant key with Donald and Goofy? Why is that such a good idea?" Three years later I watch the intro for KHII on YouTube and I ultimately regret thinking that. When I bought II and played it, it was the biggest hit of nostalgia I had ever gotten.}}
{{Bluer|20:37, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|About time this post got made, kupo. I knew I made the right decision}}
{{DTN|time=21:35, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, February 2009, what a month that was. Basically, school was slowing down for me a bit, and the rush of band/music-related events had ceased for a period of time. I had a lot of time on my hands, and somehow ended up at the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki during a session of Internet-browsing. It actually might have been to look up information on ''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days'' after seeing in a magazine, my memory is telling me that ''may'' have been the case. Anyway, what pulled me in ininitially was that information was available on this site, but I also noticed that there was so much missing. So, having been in a bit of a "slummy" mood at the time, I registered the account "DoorToNothing", and wasted no time getting right to work on gnoming and writing/completely rewriting articles for all of the Gummi pieces from ''Kingdom Hearts'' and ''Kingdom Hearts II''. I worked for a while, and then made a silent little departure, since it never became too serious for me. Less than a month later, I found myself drawn back by the work, the community, the subject, virtually everything. It was at this time that I started to get serious about wiki-editing. That summer, I spent a ridiculously copious number of hours contributing to the wiki daily. After that, I was hooked.

As for why I stay editing and writing here, I can actually relate to BebopKate. I love to write and edit works, essay-writing has always been a very strong point of mine academically. Wiki-editing became a way for me to write, edit, and debate (by the way, I absolutely '''''love''''' debating over nearly any topic) in a place that allowed for me to do those things unoriginally and often, without worrying about a mark or credit. Equally importantly, the wiki became a place for me to practice formal and/or organized composition-writing and revising while not in a hall or classroom, which I something that I came to quite enjoy.

Also, of course, the wiki was about ''Kingdom Hearts'', and I had been starting to get in to ''Final Fantasy III'' and ''Final Fantasy IV'', as well as replaying ''Kingdom Hearts II'' at the time.

Also, I cannot stress enough "THIS IS ONLY A WIKI." I myself am completely devoting myself to marching band, my studies, and other aspects of my life. You all have surely noticed my recent, relative lack of activity this summer, and that is due to a combination of IRC babysitting/real-life activities. Trust me, guys, take it from me: in the end, when all of my daily gnoming/wiki-foruming is done, I have found myself at times wishing that I had instead made plans with friends, seen a movie, read a book, practiced music more, cleaned, or just relaxed rather than spending a significant portion of my day editing on a wiki.}}

{{KKD|roxas2=To be perfectly honest, I don't even remember how I ended up here... I had purchased and beaten 358/2 days before I even started editing here, and I figured I could help out with the Days articles... So I signed up on January 4th of this year. That's that. 

And to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what I enjoy most about this place now. I suppose that I just love what little community we have. The people are phenomenal, and we definitely hold a kind demeanor. Our mainspace is extremely pristine as well (which I have nothing wrong with), however it can be overbearing on the userspace. Just like DTN and BebopKate, I love writing (as most can see from the numerous fanfictions I write), and I like it even more when I can contribute to something productive by doing it. To be perfectly honest, however, I can't find many places to edit here, as we're almost ''too'' up-to-date. I only get a little bit of gnomework in, and I write the occasional ability page, etc.

About the series: I remember the first KH game came out in 2001, and it was a way of bonding with a friend I had. We played the game together (I had no PS2), and we grew attached to the characters and story. He moved away soon after (we hadn't even gotten to wonderland or anything). I forgot about the game for a while, until KHII came out and one of my other friends got it. we played through it for a long time, and finally defeating Xemnas felt like the best thing in the world. He picked up the original KH at a garage sale for a dollar. He played that one mainly, and got stuck at Dragon Maleficent. He gave up after countless tries, and the series was forgotten once again. In May of 2009, Nintendo Power Magazine announced Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, and I jumped straight back onto the bandwagon. If you would see my notes in school, almost every margin had a keyblade in it. Then I bought Days on its release date, promptly beat it, and borrowed KH from a friend a few months later. I beat the two games on my own, and that brings us to the current date.}}

{{Galexgan|time=23:01, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text= Hello, so I'm pretty new to being a small time editor here but I already like the place. My first viewing of Kingdom hearts came in a Gameinformer magazine in... I don't know when. Before the game was even out in America, thats all I know. I read a small bit of the article and having grown up on Veggie Tales and Disney cartoons/movies became fascinated with the game. I didn't spend much thought on the game though but later on I got the game for Christmas one year and fell in love. When I heard of a number 2 coming out I got VERY VERY excited, so when that finally came out I rented it from the nearest blockbuster and played it more than halfway through before having to return it. After a long while later I found out that there was infact a 1 and a half type game called CHain of Memories and after desperately searching for it found it for pretty cheap, new. SO I played that, beat it then got no. 2 and beat that. For years after I was a huge fan but not as much as I am now, I was so excited to ehar about not only a new KH but 3 new ones coming out! Thats when my real fandom started, I began to mature though and my excitement for 358/2 days fell a little, even more so after the most recent move but as an avid fan I still bought it the day it came out at my nearest gamestop. Around that time I started readin on this KH wikia and found out more about Birth by Sleep when the info came. THe moment I got the chance I pre-ordered it sometime in June. I now await the next exciting installment in Kingdom Hearts! Oh, I didn't pre-order the game by the way, I pre-ordered the entire PSP bundle deal from Gamestop! Only had nitendo portable systems until September 7 when it comes out. :) I became a fan of the game mostly because it makes me feel like a little kid again when I play them, I'm still young, but I don't get the same excited happyness as I did all of the time when I was younger unless there is something to do with KH.

Marluxia became my favorite character sometime that I don't know (After Axel was of course. Never liked Riku more than Sora. And so I decided to start on fixing anytyhing to do with Marluxia on this wiki that I could. (Like adding the gameplay to his weapons. Though my first weapon edit was one of Larxene's. I mostly came to the wiki because of writing my KH fanfic I wanted to make it as accurate and fit with the story as much as possible. The story was made so that I could feel I was more a part of the KH world. (The main character is based on myself and many of the others are based on my friends.) SO I started making articles on the fanon to get practice. Having figure it out somewhat I returned to this wiki to the above mentioned, help Marluxia articles. I do love to debate but I get really heated when people don't see my way, (I blame it on Scottish blood XD. Love my Scott-Irish blood though.) so I try to avoid them but if there is a topic I just can't resist I go for it. I combat most of my problems with sensible logic, if something doesn't make sense then there is something wrong with it so I set out to find the answer and fix it.

P.S I actually got my start with wikia on the World of Warcraft wiki, Wowwiki. SO I'm an avid fan of the story of that too.}}
{{KrytenKoro|You're Scots-Irish too, huh? Cool.

I have a compulsion. I've always written lists, organized stats, that kind of thing, for the things I'm interested in. Phonemes, Series of Unfortunate Events, books of the Bible, Kingdom Hearts, etc. When I was on the DMC wiki, the main admin was NeloAngelo, and one day I saw that she worked here. I checked the place out, started working on the Sleight article, and that's that.}}

{{LapisScarab|time=23:44, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|inverse=I vaguely remember reading something about CoM in Nintendo Power once, and reading about Axel and Organization XIII on Wikipedia because I was reading aabout a bunch of different weapons, and saw his link on the chakram page. That's basically what got me into Kingdom Hearts. I had heard about it before, and all the jokes about just how damn weird a concept it was, but I was interested in playing it, and started looking thing up about the series. That's how I found this wiki. If it wasn't for the KH Wiki, I probably wouldn't have gotten into Kingdom Hearts at all. I already had a wikia account (having made maybe two hundred probably not-so-good edits on the Zelda, Naruto, and Bleach Wikis put together beforehand) and started making small edits here. The earliest ones I remember were to the Organization XIII Weapons page, adding to the descriptions of the weapons. Later, I saw that Terra, Aqua, and Ven had appearance sections that were blank, and decided to put one up. NinjaSheik was really impressed with it and asked me to keep it up and it just sort of snowballed from there. This has long since become my main wiki, not someting I had anticipated at all. 

I love a lot of things about this wiki and its community. I honestly don't feel anywhere near as comfortable with the communities of other wikis as much as I do with this one. To me, there really is a family sort of vibe I get from the users around here. There's always someone willing to help. There's always going to be drama and tension in a family, but through all of it, at the end of the day we're all working toward the same thing, and that's something I really enjoy being a part of.}}
{{TNE|time=01:02, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=I am actually glad you brought this up, BK - and beat me to it ! ^_^

I came here because I needed to find info on something or others, I forgot what it was, and a lot of articles needed proofreading. So that I did. And over time it became a joy. ^_^ That was December 08/January 09.

I want my future editing, as well as the future edits of the rest of the commune, to be filled with joy. No bickering, no fights, no nothing more. And no unnecessary reverting unless it really deserves a reedit. And let's hope after this that KHW goes on the right track once more !

As for KH proper, I started playing it since my half-brother gave me the KH1 disc. I discovered Final Mix from a friend, and decided to get that too. I enjoyed every moment of KH1 to the point that I actually wept wehn I saw Sora sacrificing himself, and at that point (because I was 11) I became scared of the dark. Now, I don't anymore. Still, KH never fails to move me.

KH teaches about charity where the protagonists are concerned. I know all of us wanna make use of this charity. : ) So let's, I say !

EDIT 10:24, August 1, 2010 (UTC) : I admit I can't write at length, but I've come across awesome people over here, and there are just too many to name. Too many to the point that I haven't even updated my Friends List. It seems strange that everyone just opens up to me and I open up to everyone else, but you're a part of me just as I'm a part of you. And I must thank the Lord for this, I must thank all of you for this. ^_^}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=10:11, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|lion=I've always been a huge fan of anything Disney, and I remember renting the ''Kingdom Hearts'' when I was young, not even knowing it had  Disney characters, and when they did appear on-screen, I was like "Wow!" I instantly fell in love with the game, and soon bought a copy of my own. A year or two passed, and I was watching a gaming review show on TV, and I noticed that they said ''Kingdom Hearts II'' would be released soon in Japan, but not for another year in the UK. I eagerly awaited the release of the game, and when it did, I soon grabbed a copy and began playing, thinking it couldn't possibly surpass the first game, but of course it did. I had not played CoM before KHII, as I thought it was simply the same game, but on the GameBoy, so I was a little confused with the plot.

During the years of 2008-2009, I began browsing KH3 fansites, hoping for it to be released soon. I remember typing "Kingdom Hearts 3" into Google during the summer of 2009, and a suggestion titled "Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days" appeared. I was curious, clicked the link, and it brought me here to the wiki. I read up on nearly every article, especially the CoM ones. During the month of September, I was thinking of joining wikia, and seeing as I knew a lot about Kingdom Hearts, I thought it would be great to start editing here. I had no clue about coding or formatting, but I learned, and began to enjoy contributing. October soon came, I bought Days and CoM and began to settle in to a friendly community. I think that joining the IRC further helped me to understand the wiki, and in all honesty, I hate writing, but contributing here doesn't feel like a task... it's enjoyable. We've had our ups and downs here on The Kingdom Hearts Wiki, but in my opinion, I think we have one of the best communities that are out there. We can solve these issues together, and <s>if</s> when we do, this wonderful wiki will reflect the theme of trust and friendship that the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series has not failed to engrave into our own hearts since the very first game.}}

{{Organization 13|happy=
Well, I first stumbled across this Wiki by complete accident! I was over at my friends house and I was on his computer and I typed in "Kingdom Hearts Wikipedia" to bring me to its Wikipedia page but when I clicked it, I was brought to this Wiki. And I was shocked. IT WAS AWESOME!!! Kingdom Hearts was my favourite video game series ever.
I was an Unregistered Contributer for a while I think but then I finally decide to make a User File under [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:DiZ_the_Wise DiZ the Wise] in December 22, 2009 but I didn't really like the User name so I made [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Papou_Boy Papou Boy] and stuck with that for a while but then I started to hate that name too so I made Organization 13 and stuck with it.

Where I live only 1 person I know actually has the game, so when I found a whole great community who love it I was so happy. The first Kingdom Hearts game I got was Chain of Memories, I didn't know it was a sequel until Kingdom Hearts II came out. I then fell in love with the series.}}


{{The Inexistent|text='''I realized that in my last post, I did not explain how I came across KH itself...  Well, the story really begins in kindergarten, where I started to make my first.  As I was quickly gaining friends, I ended up with many gamers.  Years later, I wished to join the pantheon of video game masters.  So, I asked my parents for some sort of game system.  I got a GameBoy.  I started off with a Pokemon game, but I quickly beat it.  At some point a few years previous, I had seen a KH commercial, and it looked amazing with all the different enemies (I didn't notice the Dsiney).  So, one day when we were at WalMart, I saw CoM for GameBoy, and, remembering the commercial, asked my parents if I could get it.  They said yes.  So, now I had my first KH game.  I beat it several times over.'''

'''Soon enough, though, the gameboy was becoming out of date.  So, I asked my parents if I could get a PS2.  They said no.  Until Christmas, that is.  They knew how much I loved Kingdom Hearts, so they got me PS2 and KH and KHII.  I promised myself I wouldn't play II until I beat KH.  When the first battle started, the first words out of my mouth were: ''Where are the cards?''.  I soon adapted.'''

'''Sometime during KH, I discovered the wiki.'''

'''After beating the original, I moved on to II, and found it far easier.  It was beaten quickly.  During the period of not having new releases, I replayed the games [[User: The Inexistent#KH Record|several times]].'''

'''Once I heard that RE:CoM was coming out for the PS2 in America, I had to get it.  I could finally play my favorite KH game in PS2 graphics (although for GB graphics, the original was amazing).'''

'''Sooner or later, I heard about Days.  By now, the GB had become obsolete, and my sister wanted a DS for Christmas.  So, she got one, and she let me play Days on it!  YES!'''

'''After Days, I joined the wiki.  Now I need to figure out how to play BbS when it comes out...'''}}
{{EO|time=18:26, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Before I go into flashback mode, I'd just like to say to BebopKate that she pretty much covered every issue I had regarding this Wiki which, at the time of my joining, seemed like the ultimate place I wanted to be. Thank you, Bebop, for creating this forum. However, just because it is here, you cannot expect a change. None of us can. Not unless we're all willing to make the commitment to do so. I know that comes easier to some than others. Others won't be willing to change ''at all''. Below, I'll be listing some of my issues with the Wiki and my hopes for the future, as well as my reasons for joining. I know my current and shameful level of respect here will probably get me in trouble for saying some of the things I say below. But friends, I urge you to put aside your personal opinions and prejudices to really THINK! Think about the power and meaning behind my words. Try to find an instance where this is true for you and you can relate. And now, FLASHBACK TIME!

It was summer of last year. I came across this Wiki by accident while I was working on a Wetpaint Kingdom Hearts site. I used the Wiki for images and information, but seeing the users working together and seeing all the cool stuff this Wiki had to offer made me want to join. Really badly. But my parents wouldn't let me, so I continued to beg and beg, and finally they cracked. I joined on June 6, 2009, a proud newbie. That was one of the happiest days of my life. True, I got in trouble for messing up page formatting or getting into a fight with an occasional user, but I learned. Most importantly, I made friends with some of the people I now consider the closest to my heart (you know who you are). They taught me the most important lesson of all, and that was how to be a good friend and how being a friend and having a friend felt after my rough, sad past in terms of my social life at school. That summer was one of the best of my life, and the Wiki was still the flexible, friendly place I miss today. 

When school started, I wasted away looking forward to coming back onto the Wiki after homework was done, when I could socialize on the then-recently-set-up IRC. I vented my problems. I got to know even more users. Most importantly, I was able to apply what I learned in terms of socializing with others and having friends to my life at school. That certainly made Freshman year a little better for me. So what if my shoulder to cry on lived half way around the world? So what? It didn't matter to me. Unfortunately, it was about late summer-early winter when the Wiki I had grown to love started transforming into a monstrous living hell that was no better than school. True, I hung onto some friends, but I lost many others. People I look at today and think either "If only..." or "What happened?". 

It was bad enough when the policy not to allow fan-images on the Wiki was enforced. Little did I know that would start us down our descent into the dark, endless abyss. One we're still falling into now. I don't recall any other policies that were set up, but I can ensure that they were done mainly by a certain group of users without others' consent, and when they were encountered about it, they denied being at fault or they stated the Wiki was a hierarchy, not a democracy like it was founded upon. Community didn't matter to those users. Only they mattered. Only they mattered to themselves. Or the users chose to favor certain other users, casting down the ideas of others just because they didn't like them. They began undoing good edits just because they didn't like what they saw, because it wasn't their style. You want to know what the Wiki and these users became after these events started and continued to transpire? Read Animal Farm. Consider the users I just mentioned the pigs, since one user ruled the entire Wiki although they denied it and had another and second-in-command brainwash us all, the rest of us not at fault and the victims of these specific users the other animals, as we suffer from the ways of the "pigs" and how they tamper with rules behind our backs. I personally think of myself as Boxer. Always working harder, trying to impress the higher authority. Always working harder to no avail, and reaching the point where it ends up destroying me. I've grown to hate what this Wiki's become. I don't hate it, but what it's become. I don't hate the users I just referenced to, I hate what they've become. I can't Wiki-break, because I'm drawn to this place. Sort of like school is your sanctuary if you have home problems and vice versa, this Wiki was and was supposed to be a sanctuary from both. But now I can't even come on here without wondering "What miraculous, once-accepted edit will I make today and spend two hours doing that will be undone today?". And now, the IRC is just as worse. I don't pay attention to the main channel anymore due to recent transpirings and the fact I prefer to just PM my dearly beloved friends, but I've heard the stories and seen both the Wiki and IRC drama increase ten-fold. Really makes me wonder why I bother with this place, and it really makes me start to sympathize with late admin and sub-Wiki-founder Azul81677. He left his position because he hated what the place he had worked so hard on to restore from the mess it was two years ago had become.

I once thought my dream of this place was to be a well-respected, well-liked staff member who had some position on this Wiki. Now I'm not so sure. While that would be another blessing, I think now my dream is to see it restored to what it once was, even though I never got to see but a small glimpse of it, too short a time after I first joined. I'd love to be able to converse freely again. I'd love to be able to use talk pages for any purpose again, to have my edits accepted for what they are, which are good and nearly flawless edits, and not have them tampered with. I'd love for even the users I just mentioned to look at me and say "Hey, that ENX guy is a good editor." But it's obvious now that this dream will never come true. Not so long as we remain blind. Not so long as we remain in this dark age. I've heard users conversing over attempting to revolutionize the Wiki, restoring it back to what it was in its hayday. But what's the point when they'll just be shot down in the end? I'm not saying allow chaos to rule the Wiki, but anything is better than what it is like now. As many previously said, this is a Wiki I used to love about a stupid video game, for cripe's sake. I joined because I thought I'd love it, love the community, and be able to make the site better. And now, what I get instead is the fact that my life's drama is doubled because of affairs on this place! We all strive for perfection on this Wiki, and it is the fact that we all strive for it but have different ways of achieving that perfection that doesn't match the styles of others where we meet conflict. Friends, and I put aside now all grudges I've beared against users or past affairs here that caused me pain such as stuff I didn't agree with when I say this, we forget one very important thing. We forget that NOTHING is perfect. No matter how hard we try, NOTHING WILL EVER BE PERFECT! I've suffered too much in life to have to deal with all the drama this place has granted me. I ask myself on the roughest of nights asking "Why?! Why must I go through this?! Why did I ever bother joining that stupid site?!" But I immediately feel ashamed for thinking such thoughts. Ashamed that I am forced by people just like me who I've never even personally met to think those thoughts. Right now, we persue a lost cause. This Wiki will NEVER be perfect. Not if each of us tries to strive for that perfection on our own. We're all similar people because we share a common interest or deal with similar problems. We all have that one close Wiki-friend. We all have that one user we just can't stand. But why can't we just join hands and strive for perfection as a team? This may sound humorous and those of you who are close to me may know I like to make jokes, but I'm saying this with the upmost of seriousness. There is no "i" in "team." We ARE a team. That's why I beg and urge us all now, for my sake and the sakes of all of us here and those of the next generation, that we join hands and do all in our power to change the things that BebopKate brought up above. I'm willing to try, stop complaining, and give up my many other flaws demonstrated here to the best of my ability. But what about you? I cannot decide things for you, but in a perfect world, I know you would agree to do the same. This Wiki now has a reputation of doing the wrong thing. So let's start by doing the right thing. I, along with several others, would love nothing more than to start anew and bring peace and fun back to this Wiki like it once had. But in the end, the only one who can make that difference is YOU. Not your best friend, not Tetsuya Nomura, not some spiky-haired brat with a giant key, but YOU! PLEASE  make the right choice! TOGETHER, NOT ALONE, WE CAN DO THIS!}}
{{Riku's Love|time=18:39, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text= I never gopt into any of the forums stuff and i have never tried to get hooked either. But i did cause of the preople here. Most of the users here are great friends or in my case a brother. This wiki cause got me to actually waanna fisnish a game. Thats why i have borrowed my brothers' Ds'd after i broke my third onw. I got a psp because of BbS. I hope no one else leaves its great here and i love ya'll!}}
{{KrytenKoro|If not wanting persistent fan-art on the Paopu Fruit, Final Form, Fresh Breeze, Xehanort's Keyblade, Vanitas's Keyblade, etc. articles makes me a communist...then comrade, I love Mother Russia.}}
{{EO|time=20:01, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=When I brought up the bit about the fan-art policy, I meant in regards to users being allowed to upload things to their user pages. I'm totally against allowing it in articles, just as you are. But were we to allow fan-art to be uploaded again ONLY FOR USER PURPOSES, then we'd have to set up some sort of policy. We'd have to set up policies on anything we decided to bring back, but TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY!}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Beautifully said up there, ENX, beautifully said.'''}}
<center>'''''--MOVED--'''''</center>
{{KrytenKoro|Ooookay. This is starting to turn into an argument, and spoiling the whole "peace, love, and flowers" vibe we were going for here. Is it okay if you two move your wall-o-texts to the talk page or your own talk pages, or summat?

Re Flowers and related vegetation: Personally, I like pumpkins, though oranges taste best.}}
{{DTN|time=21:49, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=My thoughts/worry exactly, moved.

Re:Re Flower and related vegetation: plums and pears, woo.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Kryten, which two?'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|DTN and ENX's wall-o-text battleships. It's no biggie.}}
{{TNE|time=02:05, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Userspace is userspace ; remember the PG liberty rule ? 'Long as it's not offensive and reflects the user, it should be up, ''n'est-ce pas'' ? Quite a number of users have started projects on userspace which were discontinued over time, either by volition or by order - but these projects have a certain quality to them, a quality which I'd call original.

And... Sea Salt Ice Cream floats, anyone ? I've got plenty to go around. ^_^}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Yes please!  Now, how to get it to America without melting..^_-'''}}
{{TNE|time=02:44, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Assume that we're all in the same room. : )}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''But... I don't... have a spoon... </offtopic>'''}}

{{KKD|time=04:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|roxas2=Okay, after BK's approval, I'm finally gonna post my essay.

I apologize in advance for the wall of text you are about to see. I wrote this a few days ago, as requested by TNE. She wanted to collect opinions from as many regular users as she could, to initiate something like this. Seeing as how Kate beat her to the punch, I may as well post it here.

Let me start by saying this: Our wiki needs to undergo some serious changes soon, or we may have a large-scale conflict on our hands. I’ve got four points that can’t be stressed enough.

<br>''“All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.” –James Howell''
<br>'''Point #1: Our wiki is no fun anymore.'''

Starting off with that is to say that this wiki has lost its fun side (understatement of the year). Wikia was originally intended to be a place evenly balanced with work and fun, not simply a place for work. Whenever a group of users tries to implement some fun into the wiki (The mirage arena, etc.) it gets shut down. The Forum Bye-Bye, Mirage Arena is a perfect example of this, as that forum was created four days after the Arena opened its doors. Not only did it try to kill a premature idea, it also left nothing to the imagination, essentially saying that it was a detriment to the wiki and it must go immediately. Other occurrences of this have taken place, but that’s for later. Talk pages are being frowned upon at the moment, for the reason that sociable talk page use supposedly “clogs” the Recent Changes list, and lead to unneeded growth of the wiki in the (apparently) “wrong direction”. Even the IRC channel, our main source of socialization, is in jeopardy, because some users are calling it “The cesspool of the wiki”, and are calling for it’s destruction. The closest thing we have to any community or fun is the votes for featured media. A user from the Final Fantasy Wiki, Faethin, even stated something along the lines of “What’s up with KHW? It’s way too serious business.”. If that’s how people from the outside see us, that is definitely not a good thing.

Stuff like the Mirage Arena and user badges can benefit the wiki! Metaphorically, if the workers aren’t happy, nothing’s gonna get done. Both of these are an incentive to editing, and there’s proof that user badges increase productivity. Sure, they may seem like insignificant images to some people, but to others, they could be the coolest thing since sliced bread. Many big-name wikis have userbadges. How do you think they got that way? Happy editors. The badges are a little pat on the back, and prove effective in the long run.

The Mirage Arena started out with a few stumbles, but we can get it up and running with a little hard work. The rules need fixing, and the editcount rule needs to be worked on, but if we put our heart and soul into it, we’ll get back what we put in tenfold.
<br>''“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –John Dalberg-Acton''
<br>'''Point #2: There is way too much power in the hands of our admins, and some of them need to get off of their high horses.'''

Our admins… Great as they may be, there is way too much power in their hands, and some of it is power that shouldn’t be in the hands of a select group of people. According to Wikipedia’s page on Wikia administrators, Administration is not a position of power, but a position of trust, with the abilities to delete and ban/block privileges that come with the trust. These powers should never be used to gain upper hand in a dispute, and unfortunately, they are used in that way countless times. In a nutshell, they are regular users, just like you and me. As a position of trust, this gives them next to no authority over other users, meaning that a vote from a user is worth just as much as an admin’s. One instance of this abuse of power is this:

<User> So, a user and I were thinking about userbadges, and how they could benefit the amount of edits we get.
<br><Admin> No. They'd be editing for the wrong reason. End of discussion.
<br><User> I think I'll get a few more voices before I let this die.
<br><Admin> Actually, I think I just closed this topic.
<br><User>I'm not going to let the opinions of one user let this die.
<br><Admin> Whatever

Unfortunately, some of our admins are under the impression that this power lets them say whatever they want to, make conversation or proposal-ending decisions, and that their word is law. However, as stated before, that is not, and cannot be the case, unless the suggestion in question is vandalism or taking away from userspace and mainspace simultaneously.

Many users also fear or kiss-up to the Administrators, believing that if they are in said admin’s “good books”, that they will have better chances of “making it” on the KHW. From a user’s standpoint, this is one rumor that has been spread, and is commonly believed, and followed. Users (such as myself) also notice changes in atmosphere when an admin joins in on the IRC or a forum. For example, Let’s say the IRC has a fun atmosphere at the moment. If (username censored) were to join, it would immediately change to a dark and serious one.  I have first-handedly witnessed people completely changing around admins, saying things such as “I hate (insert admin name here). He/she’s such a jerk, and he/she’s no fun.” But once the admin in question rolls around, and the subject of userbashing (or something similar) comes up, they completely change, either out of fear or to kiss up. I feel that admins shouldn’t instill fear into the regular users, but be warm and kind towards them, and not look down on them, but see them as equals.

''“Work Hard, Play Hard” – Australian Proverb''
<br>'''Point #3: Our Administration should consider splitting up.'''

It’s kind of obvious that our mainspace and userspace have trouble co-existing. There are many users tied to mainspace, who do nothing else, and vice-versa. However, the Administration is not so. We have admins like who are our hard-hitters in mainspace. However, they tend to go against most things that have to do with the userspace, such as the Mirage Arena or the Blogs (however, the latter was removed by a vote.). Likewise, there are the staffers of the people, who aim to keep the users happy and deal with issues pertaining to userspace. As a vice-versa of what was stated before, these types of admins tend to stray away from mainspace, opposing the growth of it. No offense intended to either party, but it becomes a little chaotic when the two mix, such as a mainspace-oriented admin working in userspace, or vice-versa. The thing is, the admins have “specialized” in what section of the wiki they cover, and they tend to chain themselves to it, unintentionally bringing the attitude of the space they specialize in with them when they cross the line between community and mainspace.
That’s not good at all, because the mainspace tends to be solid and down-to-business, while the userspace tends to be carefree and fun. Those two don’t mix very well.

The point of this section is suggesting that we designate admins and mods to mainspace and userspace specifically, because the two don’t mix. It may work better to have two separate groups covering these sections of the wiki altogether. With two separate entities, we may find ourselves a little more at peace.

''“Why can’t we be friends?” – War''
<br>'''Point 4: Our IRC needs to learn to co-exist or get lost.'''

Let’s face it. The IRC, our biggest socialization tool, is turning into a cesspool. It’s being constantly spammed, trolled, every last thing in the book. There have been threats (far from hollow) to disown the IRC from our wiki, and that is a reality that may soon come. Things need to be changed big time. Rules need to be followed, ops need to be constantly present (I can recall at least three times where there have been trolls and no op there to take care of him/her), and people need to learn to co-exist. The IRC is in a downward spiral, and if it doesn’t get fixed, it’ll be gone.

However, with the leaving of the IRC brings back more abuse of the talk pages, which we have far too much of already. Right now, I believe that the IRC is a necessary evil, but one that can be easily remedied, with patience and care. Perhaps with a little more structure, we could get this thing to work.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that a few of the ops refuse to admit their mistakes. For example, let’s say that there are 2 ops in the channel, NumberXVMoogle, and a few users. Op 1 breaks the bot abuse rule by spamming kitty multiple times. A user brings up the fact that the op should receive a warning. Op 1 will immediately deny it, or completely ignore it. If he/she denies it, they will change the rules in their favor (say that the rule for bot abuse is 5 instances in 3 minutes, the Op will change the rule to whatever he/she hadn’t gone over). If op 1 ignores it, Op 2 will come in to defend Op 1, and possibly penalize the user who suggested that Op 1 should receive a warning. By doing so, they broke a few rules there (I’ve even seen instances of said Op drastically changing the subject when he/she realizes that they could be penalized or made look bad, with Op oh.2 going along with it. Said user persists, and would receive an unfair warning.) If this is brought up later, they will deny everything.

In conclusion, our wiki needs to go through some drastic changes. We need to find the fun, Admins need to learn their place and extent of their power, we should consider governing userspace and mainspace separately, and the IRC needs a facelift.
I thank whoever took the time to read this, and I hope you take these things into your thoughts. <small>I think this may take the cake for biggest wall of text. I'll move it when need be.</small>}}
{{LapisScarab|time=08:22, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|text=I think your essay needs some updating, KKD. The Mirage Arena is alive and kicking now that it's been given time to grow and improve a bit. Sure, it's still improving, but no one's calling for its destruction anymore. The one part of your essay I really have a problem with is where you talk about a user bashing an admin one miute, and changing their tone once the admin comes on. Um, there ''shouldn't'' be user-bashing. It's bullying, plain and simple, and people ''should'' feel bad about it and be punished for doing so. They shouldn't kiss-up, but kissing up and being civil are two completely different things. Also, I think people are missing the "This is only a wiki" part of Kate's message. The walls o' text are getting really mellodramatic, comparing the wiki's workings to comunism VS democracy, etc. That's taking it ''way'' too seriously. Hyperbole and metaphors sound pretty, but a convincing argument they do not make.}}
{{Auror Andrachome|mad=Thats really hypocritical of you Lapis. You're one of the people that take it way too seriously, and seriously, Ninjasheik can fight her own battles so stop being nosy. It's what really grinds my gears! I've done some private talking with some users and god, this wiki has so many problems that myself and most of you choose to ignore. I have to be truthful and say that I try to stay on DoorToNothing's goodside to make sure I don't get banned as per Azul's request. But whatever, I don't feel like making a really long and pointless statement that will not benefit me.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=08:46, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|text=Whe did I say I wasn't serious? I take the wiki a bit too seriously too, yeah, but I don't indulge in hyperbole (much). I'm willing to lighten up, hence why I support the Mirage Arena so strongly. Work should be the main focus of the wiki, but not a the cost of fun. NinjaSheik has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying right now. Let's get back to the happy and flowers vibe, okay?}}

{{Galexgan|time={{{time}}}|terra= I kjnew it! The minute I changed from Marluxia to Terra all the flowers withered! Should I go change back? XD}}
{{TNE|time=13:43, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=''Allons allons'', just because the flowers withered doesn't mean we can't make them bloom again ! ^_^}}

{{KKD|roxas2=I understand where you're coming from, Lapis. However, my essay wasn't about how userbashing is wrong. It was about the truth. All of the stuff I wrote of actually happened. None of it was fiction, or hyperbole for that matter. All truth, all the time. Anyway, back to the happy and flowers.}}
{{EO|time=15:08, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=I agree. Sunshine and lollipops! We meant no personal offense for writing/pasting those "essays", but only did so to serve as a call to action/wake-up call. Now that we know how some of us have felt about the recurring issues on the Wiki (it takes great amounts of courage to do what KKD and I did), let's do all we can to improve!}}
{{KrytenKoro|I feel I have to respond to KKD, because I feel that while he is reporting actual situations, he is misrepresenting them.

#Re:1
##The main complaint about the Mirage Arena was that it would attract users who only showed up for the arena, and do no actual work. This is not a theory - it's what happened on the FF wiki, and what's been happening here (I've seen certain editors placing maintenance tags on articles that have no need of them, just for edit count). Furthermore, it's simply not true that "whenever a group tries to implement some fun...it gets shut down", and it's unfair to the staff to claim that. The IRC was at the suggestion of the staff (as far as I know), for instance. There are certainly ways to fix the Mirage Arena problem, but let's not pretend that a certain staffer just said "No" for no reason.
##Talk pages were frowned upon ''not'' just "because it clogged the RC", but because certain users were using the talk pages to harass other users. I'm sure everyone knows one of the main ones; she left the wiki for good a while ago. Another was banned from the IRC, and another still does it, and she knows who she is. Furthermore, the decision was at the hands of the community, not just the staff.
##Again, the IRC "jeopardy" was because of harassment, ''not'' because it's not "professional" enough. I know my call for clamping down on the channel was specifically because of an incident in which a normal editor was harassed, and complained to me. All of the new regulations we have are specifically a result of situations like that - they are not simply "the ops want to take away our fun". You guys were using those ways to hurt each other, and you shouldn't try to shift blame onto the ops for your own failures.
##I never saw the full user badge discussion, but from what I did see, there ''was'' reasons given by the active op, and it was never so simple as "No". It had to do with fear of the same politicking as we've seen from certain users - people who want the prestige without the responsibility, people who edit for glory and not for the simple joy of providing information. While I don't agree with that op on how dangerous the badges can be, again, please don't put up a strawman of him.
#Re:2
##I don't know of any admin here who is conceited due to their position. I am exactly as arrogant, self-sure, and conceited as I was when I only had three edits to my name. To be frank, that arrogance came because I was ''right'', not because I had seniority, and unless my memory fails me, I've never used my rank to clamp down on discussion. I know who else you are accusing with that point, and I've only ever seen him pull rank once, and only on the IRC, in a discussion of what a staffer ''is''. Those of us who act conceited, act conceited because we are sure we are right - if you are sure you are right, feel free to act conceited too, and the clash of ideas will show the truth.
##For users kissing up to staff: I don't at all encourage that, and I don't know of any staffer that does. I've always made sure to discourage that when I see it. Like I said earlier, don't obey me because of my rank, obey me because I really do know everything.
##I can blankly state that kissing up to staffers does not make it more likely to get a promotion. The only time I'll remember you complimenting me is if it gets annoying, and I'll only remember you badmouthing me if it becomes vandalism.
##I absolutely cannot agree with defining "I hate x, he's no fun" as a "fun atmosphere". That attitude is simply too alien to me for me to even respond to your complaint.
##The admins are ''very'' "warm and kind", to editors that do good work. Case in point: ShardofTruth. I'm almost ready to build a statue for the guy. Adola: Even if I have plenty of disagreements with him, his incredibly thorough work has resulted in actual monetary donations to him. However, while I can certainly be polite, I'm simply not going to spare praise to an editor who never works. And none of us expect praise unless we do work.
#Re:3
##It is completely unfair to ask that admins are only allowed to edit certain portions of the site. Like you said, we are editors to. The attitude behind that is what forced me to stay out of the Mirage Arena discussion until it got out of hand, and it was unfair to me.
#Re:4
##While we all say that it's such a sad thing that the IRC is going down, the base fact of it is, it's all of your faults. None of you are innocent of spamming, trolling, etc. The way to fix it isn't to blame the ops for heavyhandedness or absence, the way to fix it is to simply be better people, and encourage others to do the same. It's a brutal truth, but it's a truth.}}
{{TNE|time=22:56, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=In response to your statement, Kryten, I will have to state my case in point :

About the admin's warmth, I know this applies to most of us at least, if not all of us. Which means that the kinks are coming from the minority, if you understand what I mean.  Whilst this ultimately doesn't reflect what the Staff is for, it definitely doesn't hold a mirror up to us - eeryone gets the perception about the iron-fisted staff because of the few bad eggs.

And as for the IRC, ''all of our faults'' ? It's not fair to blame everyone because of the trolling of a select few. Remember, when that rant was posted on the page, some people whom we knew didn't do anything started crying. Unfair statement is unfair, and whilst I know it's directed to the perpetrators proper, everyone can read the post and then ask themselves what they've done, leading to a blatant overestimation of what they had actually done. I can pinpoint a few users in this case, if not many. Where we have made our faults, we're willing to acknowledge them, but ''this'' ? ''Pas question !''}}
{{DTN|time=00:26, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=I absolutely, completely agree with KrytenKoro on every word. Saying that any fun addition to the wiki is simply not true at all. What about user talk image galleries, additional userboxes, as well as the Mirage Arena and IRC that KrytenKoro mentioned? You will need to provide more examples of these "fun additions" to say such a statement. On the note of user talk pages, notice that whenever a forum is created about issues on them, it isn't just for staffers, it is for the whole community.

Also, the IRC is chaos. Absolute chaos, please read my user page for the details. This is not the trolling of a select few, I have witnessed first-hand just how bad the IRC community can be, it is much more than just a few users. We are all at fault, TNE. Virtually everyone has done something against our IRC policy, or has blown a situation on the IRC way out of proportion.<!--TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE: You know the exact situation I am talking about, Troisnyxetienne. The one with Faethin and maggosh, that NEVER had to get posted onto THREE pages on the wiki by you, let alone even leave the IRC and come to the wiki at all. This is exactly the type of situation that makes users support the destruction of the IRC Channel.--> I've done it, KrytenKoro had done it, you have done it, ENX has done it, maggosh, Bluerfn, LegoAlchemist, KKD, the entire bunch of us has. And for those of us who allow these rules to go unpunished or comply with not following them on a bandwagon, you are part of the problem too. If you have a problem with the rules, politely request a change in the rules, but do not just start following the rules you think are right. You are on an IRC Channel that has set rules; by joining the channel, you agree to follow them, or suffer consequences.

''Yes'', I am the admin who initially disliked the idea of userbadges. And that tactic of yours, KKD, to show only the very beginning of the discussion is very mischevious. That discussion went on for perhaps half an hour of continuous, uninterrupted chat. I gave ''several'' reasons why I disapprove of the idea. Before you start claiming that your idea that the badges are going to help the wiki as an incentive, which I disagree with, are the right thing for the wiki, you need to mention the fact of why people did not like the idea.

<!--Limiting staffers to certain spaces of the wiki is absolutely, utter idiocy. That solves NOTHING, we have all the same rights other editors do to edit freely.-->

Also guys, admins argue because they ''know''. I'm not even kidding here, they actually ''know'' more about the wiki than the average user in most cases. An admin is not chosen because they have a bajillion edits or are always around monitoring. An admin is chosen based on what they have done for ''this'' wiki, what they offer ''this'' wiki, their knowlege of policy on ''this'' wiki, their judgment of situations related to ''this'' wiki... I could go on, but you get my point. I argue so forcefully because I do so honestly believe that I am right. I have always been that way, even back in March and April of 2009. This is not to say that users are not as educated as admins, but admins usually have more experience on ''this'' wiki and can make a better judgment based on past events and wiki policy that many users are not fully aware of.}}

{{KKD|roxas2=Sorry, Kryten. It seems I misphrased some things, and you took them into the wrong context. Fixing/response (These won't be in order, as I called them as I saw them):

I absolutely cannot agree with defining "I hate x, he's no fun" as a "fun atmosphere". That attitude is simply too alien to me for me to even respond to your complaint. <br>~Those were intended to be two separate scenarios, not one altogether.

It is completely unfair to ask that admins are only allowed to edit certain portions of the site. Like you said, we are editors to. The attitude behind that is what forced me to stay out of the Mirage Arena discussion until it got out of hand, and it was unfair to me. <br>~ I didn't mean it like that. I was just pointing out that when the two mix... it usually doesn't work out too well.

The main complaint about the Mirage Arena was that it would attract users who only showed up for the arena, and do no actual work. This is not a theory - it's what happened on the FF wiki, and what's been happening here (I've seen certain editors placing maintenance tags on articles that have no need of them, just for edit count). Furthermore, it's simply not true that "whenever a group tries to implement some fun...it gets shut down", and it's unfair to the staff to claim that. The IRC was at the suggestion of the staff (as far as I know), for instance. There are certainly ways to fix the Mirage Arena problem, but let's not pretend that a certain staffer just said "No" for no reason. <br>~1. '''We are NOT the Final Fantasy Wiki. We can make this work the way we want it to, and the FFWiki's failure with their MA does not reflect how ours is going to turn out.''' <br>2. Even though the "certain staffer" gave a reason for disliking the MA, it was a prejudiced one. If I remember correctly, it went something like this: ''"I simply detest the idea of non-staffers running something to the likes of the Mirage Arena".'' To me, a prejudiced reason such as that, is '''''no reason'''''.

Talk pages were frowned upon ''not'' just "because it clogged the RC", but because certain users were using the talk pages to harass other users. I'm sure everyone knows one of the main ones; she left the wiki for good a while ago. Another was banned from the IRC, and another still does it, and she knows who she is. Furthermore, the decision was at the hands of the community, not just the staff. <br> ~My bad, I don't believe I was active here when that happened, thus I said what I had experienced and heard. Call it ignorance on my part, if you want.

The admins are ''very'' "warm and kind", to editors that do good work. Case in point: ShardofTruth. I'm almost ready to build a statue for the guy. Adola: Even if I have plenty of disagreements with him, his incredibly thorough work has resulted in actual monetary donations to him. However, while I can certainly be polite, I'm simply not going to spare praise to an editor who never works. And none of us expect praise unless we do work. <br>~ I can't cease to find things wrong with that first sentence. That kind of exclusiveness belongs nowhere. Every editor (but to less extent, trolls) should be treated equally. No exceptions. Sure, a pat on the back for a job well done is okay, but don't idolize a select few users over all others.

I can blankly state that kissing up to staffers does not make it more likely to get a promotion. The only time I'll remember you complimenting me is if it gets annoying, and I'll only remember you badmouthing me if it becomes vandalism. <br>~Fair enough, however. It is common belief among regular users, so thanks for clearing that up.

While we all say that it's such a sad thing that the IRC is going down, the base fact of it is, it's all of your faults. None of you are innocent of spamming, trolling, etc. The way to fix it isn't to blame the ops for heavyhandedness or absence, the way to fix it is to simply be better people, and encourage others to do the same. It's a brutal truth, but it's a truth. <br>~I can't help but notice that in most of these, you're not including yourself/the other admins in your accusations. This is exactly what I meant by saying "some of the admins need to get off of their high horses". You're no better than anyone, and nobody's any better than you. What's it gonna take for you to understand a concept as simple as equality?

And to DTN: That tactic of mine? Wasn't me. I asked LegoAlchemist for what he remembered of the conversation, and he gave it to me. I misinterpreted it as full, so my apologies. }}
{{DTN|time=00:52, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=KingdomKeyDarkside, I think that my post above should act as rebuttles to most of the replies you just posted; I did accuse admins, ops, and '''''everyone''''' of not following the rules, among other points.

Okay, this is my main concern: ''"We are NOT the Final Fantasy Wiki. We can make this work the way we want it to, and the FFWiki's failure with their MA does not reflect how ours is going to turn out."''

... this is evidence, KingdomKeyDarkside, evidence. That is like saying that if you put vinegar and baking soda in a cup, and the product fizzes, then putting the exact same amounts of vinegar and baking soda into a carbon copy of that cup will not result in it fizzing. You don't even provide a reason why the "vinegar and baking soda won't fizz", being the success of the Mirage Arena, with a different "scientist", being the wiki, performing the experiment. Evidence is evidence, and it cannot be denied.

Also, you say all editors deserve equal treatment. That's just it, we do that. But an editor's actions can act as the "cause" of certain "effects" of this treatment. For example, if a user does outstanding work, we will praise them. If a user vandalizes, we will warn them. If a user causes drama, we will try and settle it or move of off-wiki. All cases are the same, we do not intentionally try to praise one user specifically and not another user. If a user does good work, they can expect praise for their deeds from us. If they do not contribute to the wiki's growth and instead just laze around in the forums and user talkspace, they certainly won't expect "Good job!" or "That's some great editing!" messages on their talk page.}}

Okay, let's suppose your theory is true. There's one thing you're missing. The variables (not just one...). Let's assume that the MA is the vinegar, and KHW and FFW are the scientists. Here's the kicker: The compound that is added to the vinegar: The communities of the two. The FFWiki is baking soda, and KHW is... an undetermined substance. Sure, the baking soda and vinegar will fizz, but who knows if the vinegar and the undetermined substance will? Only time will tell. So I ask you, give it some time to grow! We'll get rid of it if need be. EDIT 01:44, August 3, 2010 (UTC):Anyway, I was just trying to express my opinion. Please return to your regularly scheduled sunshine, peace, love and flowers. SSIC floats on me.{{KKDSig|1}}

{{Maggosh|flint=Wow, guys, there goes the whole "peace, love, and flowers" vibe we had going on. Did you two lose it after your SSIC floats ran out? Then I suggest you get a refill, because this is distracting from this forum's aim.}}
:Vinegar and baking soda act as one unit in this analogy, they cannot be seperated. However, I suggest moving this to a side-page or hiding it, since it kind of, as maggosh says, kills the mood of the forum. How would you like to do this, KKD? --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 02:15, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
:Anything's fine by me. However, as far as I'm concerned, this arguement is over. No winners, no losers. {{KKDSig|1}}

{{Chitalian8|time=02:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text= Alright guys. I am a new guy to this wiki. I am not as skilled in editing as other people. I can't write as good descriptions as Lapis, I'm not good with pictures like Xiggie. I'm just a User trying to be a good asset to the wiki. I think that this wiki is great on the mainspace. Articles are great looking, and people can tell that this is a high quality wiki. I joined this wiki with high hopes. I just wish that there wasn't so much drama going on. Like BK said, this is a wiki, a place for entertainment. This isn't Gossip girl, this is a wiki about Disney characters and Keys and Light Doors and whatnot. I agree with KKD, the standards of this wiki are at an all time low.}}

{{BebopKate|time=02:27, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=Yeah.  The conversation has evolved a bit... -_-

But the entire discussion up there is pretty much a summary of everything I've been hearing over the last two weeks.  The staff is too controlling!  So-and-so won't stop socializing and causing drama!  The IRC is...well, let's leave IRC out of this for the moment.  That's a whole different ball game right now.

But you see why I wanted you guys to look carefully at why you are here.

I see some users who are here because they want to help organize a wiki on a video game.  I see others who are here for accomplishment and praise.  Still others who want to socialize.  None of those things are bad in and of themselves...it's when people begin viewing them as the ONLY reason to be here we have a conflict.

#The editors: Yes, the main reason we are here is the wiki.  That mainspace ain't going to edit itself.  But there are people behind the edits.  Thinking, living, flawed people.  In our case, mostly fairly young people as well, who are still growing and learning.  Remembering the people behind the manners and offers to help will get everyone much farther than accusations and stealth edits.

#The achievers: Yes, we do praise and notice those who do good work.  It's only natural and pretty common in any social situation.  Granted, some work gets noticed more than others; a huge section of new info is a striking difference versus fixing a few links and grammar errors.  Both are important to the wiki, I think most of us realize that, and it really is a shame we don't always take time to say it.  But if you are motivated to edit or post just to be recognized or become one of the "bigwigs", or think it's the only reason to be here, please rethink your priorities.

#The chatters, the talkers, the princesses: the socializers are very good at getting things done as a group, at organizing projects and people and helping the communication around the wiki.  It's when they ''only'' talk that others feel annoyed or angry; the fact is, wikis are great mediums for communication, but they're primarily for information, and it gets hard to sort that information with a lot of activity around.  There are thousands of places to socialize on the internet, but there are very few ''Kingdom Hearts'' wikis.

I think most everyone here fits into one of those three groups, perhaps two.  The question I ask now is: think about where you fit in.  How can you take your type (or types) and make it work with the others?}}