Editing Forum:Wiki Thoughts - Please Read/Statements

{{EO|time=18:26, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Before I go into flashback mode, I'd just like to say to BebopKate that she pretty much covered every issue I had regarding this Wiki which, at the time of my joining, seemed like the ultimate place I wanted to be. Thank you, Bebop, for creating this forum. However, just because it is here, you cannot expect a change. None of us can. Not unless we're all willing to make the commitment to do so. I know that comes easier to some than others. Others won't be willing to change ''at all''. Below, I'll be listing some of my issues with the Wiki and my hopes for the future, as well as my reasons for joining. I know my current and shameful level of respect here will probably get me in trouble for saying some of the things I say below. But friends, I urge you to put aside your personal opinions and prejudices to really THINK! Think about the power and meaning behind my words. Try to find an instance where this is true for you and you can relate. And now, FLASHBACK TIME!

It was summer of last year. I came across this Wiki by accident while I was working on a Wetpaint Kingdom Hearts site. I used the Wiki for images and information, but seeing the users working together and seeing all the cool stuff this Wiki had to offer made me want to join. Really badly. But my parents wouldn't let me, so I continued to beg and beg, and finally they cracked. I joined on June 6, 2009, a proud newbie. That was one of the happiest days of my life. True, I got in trouble for messing up page formatting or getting into a fight with an occasional user, but I learned. Most importantly, I made friends with some of the people I now consider the closest to my heart (you know who you are). They taught me the most important lesson of all, and that was how to be a good friend and how being a friend and having a friend felt after my rough, sad past in terms of my social life at school. That summer was one of the best of my life, and the Wiki was still the flexible, friendly place I miss today. 

When school started, I wasted away looking forward to coming back onto the Wiki after homework was done, when I could socialize on the then-recently-set-up IRC. I vented my problems. I got to know even more users. Most importantly, I was able to apply what I learned in terms of socializing with others and having friends to my life at school. That certainly made Freshman year a little better for me. So what if my shoulder to cry on lived half way around the world? So what? It didn't matter to me. Unfortunately, it was about late summer-early winter when the Wiki I had grown to love started transforming into a monstrous living hell that was no better than school. True, I hung onto some friends, but I lost many others. People I look at today and think either "If only..." or "What happened?". 

It was bad enough when the policy not to allow fan-images on the Wiki was enforced. Little did I know that would start us down our descent into the dark, endless abyss. One we're still falling into now. I don't recall any other policies that were set up, but I can ensure that they were done mainly by a certain group of users without others' consent, and when they were encountered about it, they denied being at fault or they stated the Wiki was a hierarchy, not a democracy like it was founded upon. Community didn't matter to those users. Only they mattered. Only they mattered to themselves. Or the users chose to favor certain other users, casting down the ideas of others just because they didn't like them. They began undoing good edits just because they didn't like what they saw, because it wasn't their style. You want to know what the Wiki and these users became after these events started and continued to transpire? Read Animal Farm. Consider the users I just mentioned the pigs, since one user ruled the entire Wiki although they denied it and had another and second-in-command brainwash us all, the rest of us not at fault and the victims of these specific users the other animals, as we suffer from the ways of the "pigs" and how they tamper with rules behind our backs. I personally think of myself as Boxer. Always working harder, trying to impress the higher authority. Always working harder to no avail, and reaching the point where it ends up destroying me. I've grown to hate what this Wiki's become. I don't hate it, but what it's become. I don't hate the users I just referenced to, I hate what they've become. I can't Wiki-break, because I'm drawn to this place. Sort of like school is your sanctuary if you have home problems and vice versa, this Wiki was and was supposed to be a sanctuary from both. But now I can't even come on here without wondering "What miraculous, once-accepted edit will I make today and spend two hours doing that will be undone today?". And now, the IRC is just as worse. I don't pay attention to the main channel anymore due to recent transpirings and the fact I prefer to just PM my dearly beloved friends, but I've heard the stories and seen both the Wiki and IRC drama increase ten-fold. Really makes me wonder why I bother with this place, and it really makes me start to sympathize with late admin and sub-Wiki-founder Azul81677. He left his position because he hated what the place he had worked so hard on to restore from the mess it was two years ago had become.

I once thought my dream of this place was to be a well-respected, well-liked staff member who had some position on this Wiki. Now I'm not so sure. While that would be another blessing, I think now my dream is to see it restored to what it once was, even though I never got to see but a small glimpse of it, too short a time after I first joined. I'd love to be able to converse freely again. I'd love to be able to use talk pages for any purpose again, to have my edits accepted for what they are, which are good and nearly flawless edits, and not have them tampered with. I'd love for even the users I just mentioned to look at me and say "Hey, that ENX guy is a good editor." But it's obvious now that this dream will never come true. Not so long as we remain blind. Not so long as we remain in this dark age. I've heard users conversing over attempting to revolutionize the Wiki, restoring it back to what it was in its hayday. But what's the point when they'll just be shot down in the end? I'm not saying allow chaos to rule the Wiki, but anything is better than what it is like now. As many previously said, this is a Wiki I used to love about a stupid video game, for cripe's sake. I joined because I thought I'd love it, love the community, and be able to make the site better. And now, what I get instead is the fact that my life's drama is doubled because of affairs on this place! We all strive for perfection on this Wiki, and it is the fact that we all strive for it but have different ways of achieving that perfection that doesn't match the styles of others where we meet conflict. Friends, and I put aside now all grudges I've beared against users or past affairs here that caused me pain such as stuff I didn't agree with when I say this, we forget one very important thing. We forget that NOTHING is perfect. No matter how hard we try, NOTHING WILL EVER BE PERFECT! I've suffered too much in life to have to deal with all the drama this place has granted me. I ask myself on the roughest of nights asking "Why?! Why must I go through this?! Why did I ever bother joining that stupid site?!" But I immediately feel ashamed for thinking such thoughts. Ashamed that I am forced by people just like me who I've never even personally met to think those thoughts. Right now, we persue a lost cause. This Wiki will NEVER be perfect. Not if each of us tries to strive for that perfection on our own. We're all similar people because we share a common interest or deal with similar problems. We all have that one close Wiki-friend. We all have that one user we just can't stand. But why can't we just join hands and strive for perfection as a team? This may sound humorous and those of you who are close to me may know I like to make jokes, but I'm saying this with the upmost of seriousness. There is no "i" in "team." We ARE a team. That's why I beg and urge us all now, for my sake and the sakes of all of us here and those of the next generation, that we join hands and do all in our power to change the things that BebopKate brought up above. I'm willing to try, stop complaining, and give up my many other flaws demonstrated here to the best of my ability. But what about you? I cannot decide things for you, but in a perfect world, I know you would agree to do the same. This Wiki now has a reputation of doing the wrong thing. So let's start by doing the right thing. I, along with several others, would love nothing more than to start anew and bring peace and fun back to this Wiki like it once had. But in the end, the only one who can make that difference is YOU. Not your best friend, not Tetsuya Nomura, not some spiky-haired brat with a giant key, but YOU! PLEASE  make the right choice! TOGETHER, NOT ALONE, WE CAN DO THIS!}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''Beautifully said up there, ENX, beautifully said.'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|If not wanting persistent fan-art on the Paopu Fruit, Final Form, Fresh Breeze, Xehanort's Keyblade, Vanitas's Keyblade, etc. articles makes me a communist...then comrade, I love Mother Russia.}}
{{EO|time=20:01, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=When I brought up the bit about the fan-art policy, I meant in regards to users being allowed to upload things to their user pages. I'm totally against allowing it in articles, just as you are. But were we to allow fan-art to be uploaded again ONLY FOR USER PURPOSES, then we'd have to set up some sort of policy. We'd have to set up policies on anything we decided to bring back, but TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY!}}

{{DTN|time=21:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=''Our loyalty to our Fatherland gives us strength.<br>Thus it was, thus it is and always will be!''

Bwahahaha, I have those two lines memorized. Anyway, question! What would be the point of allowing back unofficial images just to fancy up a user page? I can already imagine our image database getting filled back up with pointless media, much of which will go unused or have no other purpose than to post some random anime character in a user's infobox. '''''Again'''''. I think that most users have forgotten that the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki has '''''two''''' Photobucket accounts; use them, or your own account! If there is a problem with that type of image-sharing, Imageshack does the same thing, but no account is needed to do so.

To continue, if your edits are being reverted, stop talking about the user(s) reverting them anonymously and ask them why they were reverted. It seems to me that all of your rage and frustration is just built up from you never making a confrontation or investigating any of these situations. I also am unaware of, and confused about your statement regarding, the user talk conversation policy. Yes, we encourage users to just leave a message saying "Can you please come on the IRC?",  or another type of simple sentence. I have been pleased to see that many users are indeed doing this. However, most users still cast the user talk policy off as nothing and continue to use the user talk pages for anything they please. Quite frankly, you are one of them, you can see it so very easily on user talk pages such as [[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|this one]]. A wiki is a database, but because of that, it is naturally bound to become a fansite as well. So the user talk page policy may need clarification. Also, if you say that you are able to use the IRC to take to your friends, why are you complaining about the user talk pages? Anyway, when you joined, the wiki was growing out of its mid-life stages. These policies and changes that you don't like were bound to come about, such is the way of a growing and improving wiki.

In conclusion, I deem your wall o' text the new champion of wall o' texts; sadly, I am beaten. However, I take the message as just mere perception of the wiki, and that is how we should all take your message. That's how we should see my message, and KrytenKoro's, and BebopKate's, and everyone else's messages here. We all are going to see this wiki in a different light. Personally, I like the direction the wiki is going in; we are becoming a more aesthetically pleasing wiki with a hard-working team of editors that has joined as one body to work toward a common goal. We can and have accepeted gnomes, project workers, image specialists, anyone. Other users, like EternalNothingnessXIII, do not approve of what is natural for any wiki to go through at this point: growing pains. As a wiki, speaking of the community, grows to become larger and more in-depth of its subject, it is going to have to adopt new policies and ways of performing tasks in order to improve itself. Some of us, I guess, are not yet used to the fact that we do not want to allow images of random anime and drawings onto the wiki, or that we want all similar articles to have a certain homogeneousness in their format. So yes, there will be users like EternalNothingnessXIII who do not like the wiki becoming a more quality database and growing so quickly. But at the same time, there will be users like myself, KingdomKeyDarkside, and many others who are enjoying the change and growth we are experiencing. You say yourself that a wiki will never be perfect, so listen to yourself: this wiki will never be perfect, we will never be able to satisfy everyone. Sometimes, doing what is "best for friendships" is not enough either. We need to do what is best for the wiki.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Ooookay. This is starting to turn into an argument, and spoiling the whole "peace, love, and flowers" vibe we were going for here. Is it okay if you two move your wall-o-texts to the talk page or your own talk pages, or summat?

Re Flowers and related vegetation: Personally, I like pumpkins, though oranges taste best.}}
{{DTN|time=21:49, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=My thoughts/worry exactly, moved.

Re:Re Flower and related vegetation: plums and pears, woo.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Kryten, which two?'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|DTN and ENX's wall-o-text battleships. It's no biggie.}}
{{TNE|time=02:05, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Userspace is userspace ; remember the PG liberty rule ? 'Long as it's not offensive and reflects the user, it should be up, ''n'est-ce pas'' ? Quite a number of users have started projects on userspace which were discontinued over time, either by volition or by order - but these projects have a certain quality to them, a quality which I'd call original.

And... Sea Salt Ice Cream floats, anyone ? I've got plenty to go around. ^_^}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Yes please!  Now, how to get it to America without melting..^_-'''}}
{{TNE|time=02:44, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Assume that we're all in the same room. : )}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''But... I don't... have a spoon... </offtopic>'''}}

{{KKD|time=04:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|roxas2=Okay, after BK's approval, I'm finally gonna post my essay.

I apologize in advance for the wall of text you are about to see. I wrote this a few days ago, as requested by TNE. She wanted to collect opinions from as many regular users as she could, to initiate something like this. Seeing as how Kate beat her to the punch, I may as well post it here.

Let me start by saying this: Our wiki needs to undergo some serious changes soon, or we may have a large-scale conflict on our hands. I’ve got four points that can’t be stressed enough.

<br>''“All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.” –James Howell''
<br>'''Point #1: Our wiki is no fun anymore.'''

Starting off with that is to say that this wiki has lost its fun side (understatement of the year). Wikia was originally intended to be a place evenly balanced with work and fun, not simply a place for work. Whenever a group of users tries to implement some fun into the wiki (The mirage arena, etc.) it gets shut down. The Forum Bye-Bye, Mirage Arena is a perfect example of this, as that forum was created four days after the Arena opened its doors. Not only did it try to kill a premature idea, it also left nothing to the imagination, essentially saying that it was a detriment to the wiki and it must go immediately. Other occurrences of this have taken place, but that’s for later. Talk pages are being frowned upon at the moment, for the reason that sociable talk page use supposedly “clogs” the Recent Changes list, and lead to unneeded growth of the wiki in the (apparently) “wrong direction”. Even the IRC channel, our main source of socialization, is in jeopardy, because some users are calling it “The cesspool of the wiki”, and are calling for it’s destruction. The closest thing we have to any community or fun is the votes for featured media. A user from the Final Fantasy Wiki, Faethin, even stated something along the lines of “What’s up with KHW? It’s way too serious business.”. If that’s how people from the outside see us, that is definitely not a good thing.

Stuff like the Mirage Arena and user badges can benefit the wiki! Metaphorically, if the workers aren’t happy, nothing’s gonna get done. Both of these are an incentive to editing, and there’s proof that user badges increase productivity. Sure, they may seem like insignificant images to some people, but to others, they could be the coolest thing since sliced bread. Many big-name wikis have userbadges. How do you think they got that way? Happy editors. The badges are a little pat on the back, and prove effective in the long run.

The Mirage Arena started out with a few stumbles, but we can get it up and running with a little hard work. The rules need fixing, and the editcount rule needs to be worked on, but if we put our heart and soul into it, we’ll get back what we put in tenfold.
<br>''“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –John Dalberg-Acton''
<br>'''Point #2: There is way too much power in the hands of our admins, and some of them need to get off of their high horses.'''

Our admins… Great as they may be, there is way too much power in their hands, and some of it is power that shouldn’t be in the hands of a select group of people. According to Wikipedia’s page on Wikia administrators, Administration is not a position of power, but a position of trust, with the abilities to delete and ban/block privileges that come with the trust. These powers should never be used to gain upper hand in a dispute, and unfortunately, they are used in that way countless times. In a nutshell, they are regular users, just like you and me. As a position of trust, this gives them next to no authority over other users, meaning that a vote from a user is worth just as much as an admin’s. One instance of this abuse of power is this:

<User> So, a user and I were thinking about userbadges, and how they could benefit the amount of edits we get.
<br><Admin> No. They'd be editing for the wrong reason. End of discussion.
<br><User> I think I'll get a few more voices before I let this die.
<br><Admin> Actually, I think I just closed this topic.
<br><User>I'm not going to let the opinions of one user let this die.
<br><Admin> Whatever

Unfortunately, some of our admins are under the impression that this power lets them say whatever they want to, make conversation or proposal-ending decisions, and that their word is law. However, as stated before, that is not, and cannot be the case, unless the suggestion in question is vandalism or taking away from userspace and mainspace simultaneously.

Many users also fear or kiss-up to the Administrators, believing that if they are in said admin’s “good books”, that they will have better chances of “making it” on the KHW. From a user’s standpoint, this is one rumor that has been spread, and is commonly believed, and followed. Users (such as myself) also notice changes in atmosphere when an admin joins in on the IRC or a forum. For example, Let’s say the IRC has a fun atmosphere at the moment. If (username censored) were to join, it would immediately change to a dark and serious one.  I have first-handedly witnessed people completely changing around admins, saying things such as “I hate (insert admin name here). He/she’s such a jerk, and he/she’s no fun.” But once the admin in question rolls around, and the subject of userbashing (or something similar) comes up, they completely change, either out of fear or to kiss up. I feel that admins shouldn’t instill fear into the regular users, but be warm and kind towards them, and not look down on them, but see them as equals.

''“Work Hard, Play Hard” – Australian Proverb''
<br>'''Point #3: Our Administration should consider splitting up.'''

It’s kind of obvious that our mainspace and userspace have trouble co-existing. There are many users tied to mainspace, who do nothing else, and vice-versa. However, the Administration is not so. We have admins like who are our hard-hitters in mainspace. However, they tend to go against most things that have to do with the userspace, such as the Mirage Arena or the Blogs (however, the latter was removed by a vote.). Likewise, there are the staffers of the people, who aim to keep the users happy and deal with issues pertaining to userspace. As a vice-versa of what was stated before, these types of admins tend to stray away from mainspace, opposing the growth of it. No offense intended to either party, but it becomes a little chaotic when the two mix, such as a mainspace-oriented admin working in userspace, or vice-versa. The thing is, the admins have “specialized” in what section of the wiki they cover, and they tend to chain themselves to it, unintentionally bringing the attitude of the space they specialize in with them when they cross the line between community and mainspace.
That’s not good at all, because the mainspace tends to be solid and down-to-business, while the userspace tends to be carefree and fun. Those two don’t mix very well.

The point of this section is suggesting that we designate admins and mods to mainspace and userspace specifically, because the two don’t mix. It may work better to have two separate groups covering these sections of the wiki altogether. With two separate entities, we may find ourselves a little more at peace.

''“Why can’t we be friends?” – War''
<br>'''Point 4: Our IRC needs to learn to co-exist or get lost.'''

Let’s face it. The IRC, our biggest socialization tool, is turning into a cesspool. It’s being constantly spammed, trolled, every last thing in the book. There have been threats (far from hollow) to disown the IRC from our wiki, and that is a reality that may soon come. Things need to be changed big time. Rules need to be followed, ops need to be constantly present (I can recall at least three times where there have been trolls and no op there to take care of him/her), and people need to learn to co-exist. The IRC is in a downward spiral, and if it doesn’t get fixed, it’ll be gone.

However, with the leaving of the IRC brings back more abuse of the talk pages, which we have far too much of already. Right now, I believe that the IRC is a necessary evil, but one that can be easily remedied, with patience and care. Perhaps with a little more structure, we could get this thing to work.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that a few of the ops refuse to admit their mistakes. For example, let’s say that there are 2 ops in the channel, NumberXVMoogle, and a few users. Op 1 breaks the bot abuse rule by spamming kitty multiple times. A user brings up the fact that the op should receive a warning. Op 1 will immediately deny it, or completely ignore it. If he/she denies it, they will change the rules in their favor (say that the rule for bot abuse is 5 instances in 3 minutes, the Op will change the rule to whatever he/she hadn’t gone over). If op 1 ignores it, Op 2 will come in to defend Op 1, and possibly penalize the user who suggested that Op 1 should receive a warning. By doing so, they broke a few rules there (I’ve even seen instances of said Op drastically changing the subject when he/she realizes that they could be penalized or made look bad, with Op oh.2 going along with it. Said user persists, and would receive an unfair warning.) If this is brought up later, they will deny everything.

In conclusion, our wiki needs to go through some drastic changes. We need to find the fun, Admins need to learn their place and extent of their power, we should consider governing userspace and mainspace separately, and the IRC needs a facelift.
I thank whoever took the time to read this, and I hope you take these things into your thoughts. <small>I think this may take the cake for biggest wall of text. I'll move it when need be.</small>}}
{{LapisScarab|time=08:22, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|text=I think your essay needs some updating, KKD. The Mirage Arena is alive and kicking now that it's been given time to grow and improve a bit. Sure, it's still improving, but no one's calling for its destruction anymore. The one part of your essay I really have a problem with is where you talk about a user bashing an admin one miute, and changing their tone once the admin comes on. Um, there ''shouldn't'' be user-bashing. It's bullying, plain and simple, and people ''should'' feel bad about it and be punished for doing so. They shouldn't kiss-up, but kissing up and being civil are two completely different things. Also, I think people are missing the "This is only a wiki" part of Kate's message. The walls o' text are getting really mellodramatic, comparing the wiki's workings to comunism VS democracy, etc. That's taking it ''way'' too seriously. Hyperbole and metaphors sound pretty, but a convincing argument they do not make.}}
{{Auror Andrachome|mad=Thats really hypocritical of you Lapis. You're one of the people that take it way too seriously, and seriously, Ninjasheik can fight her own battles so stop being nosy. It's what really grinds my gears! I've done some private talking with some users and god, this wiki has so many problems that myself and most of you choose to ignore. I have to be truthful and say that I try to stay on DoorToNothing's goodside to make sure I don't get banned as per Azul's request. But whatever, I don't feel like making a really long and pointless statement that will not benefit me.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=08:46, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|text=Whe did I say I wasn't serious? I take the wiki a bit too seriously too, yeah, but I don't indulge in hyperbole (much). I'm willing to lighten up, hence why I support the Mirage Arena so strongly. Work should be the main focus of the wiki, but not a the cost of fun. NinjaSheik has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying right now. Let's get back to the happy and flowers vibe, okay?}}

{{Galexgan|time={{{time}}}|terra= I kjnew it! The minute I changed from Marluxia to Terra all the flowers withered! Should I go change back? XD}}
{{TNE|time=13:43, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=''Allons allons'', just because the flowers withered doesn't mean we can't make them bloom again ! ^_^}}

{{KKD|roxas2=I understand where you're coming from, Lapis. However, my essay wasn't about how userbashing is wrong. It was about the truth. All of the stuff I wrote of actually happened. None of it was fiction, or hyperbole for that matter. All truth, all the time. Anyway, back to the happy and flowers.}}
{{EO|time=15:08, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=I agree. Sunshine and lollipops! We meant no personal offense for writing/pasting those "essays", but only did so to serve as a call to action/wake-up call. Now that we know how some of us have felt about the recurring issues on the Wiki (it takes great amounts of courage to do what KKD and I did), let's do all we can to improve!}}
{{KrytenKoro|I feel I have to respond to KKD, because I feel that while he is reporting actual situations, he is misrepresenting them.

#Re:1
##The main complaint about the Mirage Arena was that it would attract users who only showed up for the arena, and do no actual work. This is not a theory - it's what happened on the FF wiki, and what's been happening here (I've seen certain editors placing maintenance tags on articles that have no need of them, just for edit count). Furthermore, it's simply not true that "whenever a group tries to implement some fun...it gets shut down", and it's unfair to the staff to claim that. The IRC was at the suggestion of the staff (as far as I know), for instance. There are certainly ways to fix the Mirage Arena problem, but let's not pretend that a certain staffer just said "No" for no reason.
##Talk pages were frowned upon ''not'' just "because it clogged the RC", but because certain users were using the talk pages to harass other users. I'm sure everyone knows one of the main ones; she left the wiki for good a while ago. Another was banned from the IRC, and another still does it, and she knows who she is. Furthermore, the decision was at the hands of the community, not just the staff.
##Again, the IRC "jeopardy" was because of harassment, ''not'' because it's not "professional" enough. I know my call for clamping down on the channel was specifically because of an incident in which a normal editor was harassed, and complained to me. All of the new regulations we have are specifically a result of situations like that - they are not simply "the ops want to take away our fun". You guys were using those ways to hurt each other, and you shouldn't try to shift blame onto the ops for your own failures.
##I never saw the full user badge discussion, but from what I did see, there ''was'' reasons given by the active op, and it was never so simple as "No". It had to do with fear of the same politicking as we've seen from certain users - people who want the prestige without the responsibility, people who edit for glory and not for the simple joy of providing information. While I don't agree with that op on how dangerous the badges can be, again, please don't put up a strawman of him.
#Re:2
##I don't know of any admin here who is conceited due to their position. I am exactly as arrogant, self-sure, and conceited as I was when I only had three edits to my name. To be frank, that arrogance came because I was ''right'', not because I had seniority, and unless my memory fails me, I've never used my rank to clamp down on discussion. I know who else you are accusing with that point, and I've only ever seen him pull rank once, and only on the IRC, in a discussion of what a staffer ''is''. Those of us who act conceited, act conceited because we are sure we are right - if you are sure you are right, feel free to act conceited too, and the clash of ideas will show the truth.
##For users kissing up to staff: I don't at all encourage that, and I don't know of any staffer that does. I've always made sure to discourage that when I see it. Like I said earlier, don't obey me because of my rank, obey me because I really do know everything.
##I can blankly state that kissing up to staffers does not make it more likely to get a promotion. The only time I'll remember you complimenting me is if it gets annoying, and I'll only remember you badmouthing me if it becomes vandalism.
##I absolutely cannot agree with defining "I hate x, he's no fun" as a "fun atmosphere". That attitude is simply too alien to me for me to even respond to your complaint.
##The admins are ''very'' "warm and kind", to editors that do good work. Case in point: ShardofTruth. I'm almost ready to build a statue for the guy. Adola: Even if I have plenty of disagreements with him, his incredibly thorough work has resulted in actual monetary donations to him. However, while I can certainly be polite, I'm simply not going to spare praise to an editor who never works. And none of us expect praise unless we do work.
#Re:3
##It is completely unfair to ask that admins are only allowed to edit certain portions of the site. Like you said, we are editors to. The attitude behind that is what forced me to stay out of the Mirage Arena discussion until it got out of hand, and it was unfair to me.
#Re:4
##While we all say that it's such a sad thing that the IRC is going down, the base fact of it is, it's all of your faults. None of you are innocent of spamming, trolling, etc. The way to fix it isn't to blame the ops for heavyhandedness or absence, the way to fix it is to simply be better people, and encourage others to do the same. It's a brutal truth, but it's a truth.}}
{{TNE|time=22:56, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=In response to your statement, Kryten, I will have to state my case in point :

About the admin's warmth, I know this applies to most of us at least, if not all of us. Which means that the kinks are coming from the minority, if you understand what I mean.  Whilst this ultimately doesn't reflect what the Staff is for, it definitely doesn't hold a mirror up to us - eeryone gets the perception about the iron-fisted staff because of the few bad eggs.

And as for the IRC, ''all of our faults'' ? It's not fair to blame everyone because of the trolling of a select few. Remember, when that rant was posted on the page, some people whom we knew didn't do anything started crying. Unfair statement is unfair, and whilst I know it's directed to the perpetrators proper, everyone can read the post and then ask themselves what they've done, leading to a blatant overestimation of what they had actually done. I can pinpoint a few users in this case, if not many. Where we have made our faults, we're willing to acknowledge them, but ''this'' ? ''Pas question !''}}
{{DTN|time=00:26, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=I absolutely, completely agree with KrytenKoro on every word. Saying that any fun addition to the wiki is simply not true at all. What about user talk image galleries, additional userboxes, as well as the Mirage Arena and IRC that KrytenKoro mentioned? You will need to provide more examples of these "fun additions" to say such a statement. On the note of user talk pages, notice that whenever a forum is created about issues on them, it isn't just for staffers, it is for the whole community.

Also, the IRC is chaos. Absolute chaos, please read my user page for the details. This is not the trolling of a select few, I have witnessed first-hand just how bad the IRC community can be, it is much more than just a few users. We are all at fault, TNE. Virtually everyone has done something against our IRC policy, or has blown a situation on the IRC way out of proportion.<!--TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE TNE: You know the exact situation I am talking about, Troisnyxetienne. The one with Faethin and maggosh, that NEVER had to get posted onto THREE pages on the wiki by you, let alone even leave the IRC and come to the wiki at all. This is exactly the type of situation that makes users support the destruction of the IRC Channel.--> I've done it, KrytenKoro had done it, you have done it, ENX has done it, maggosh, Bluerfn, LegoAlchemist, KKD, the entire bunch of us has. And for those of us who allow these rules to go unpunished or comply with not following them on a bandwagon, you are part of the problem too. If you have a problem with the rules, politely request a change in the rules, but do not just start following the rules you think are right. You are on an IRC Channel that has set rules; by joining the channel, you agree to follow them, or suffer consequences.

''Yes'', I am the admin who initially disliked the idea of userbadges. And that tactic of yours, KKD, to show only the very beginning of the discussion is very mischevious. That discussion went on for perhaps half an hour of continuous, uninterrupted chat. I gave ''several'' reasons why I disapprove of the idea. Before you start claiming that your idea that the badges are going to help the wiki as an incentive, which I disagree with, are the right thing for the wiki, you need to mention the fact of why people did not like the idea.

<!--Limiting staffers to certain spaces of the wiki is absolutely, utter idiocy. That solves NOTHING, we have all the same rights other editors do to edit freely.-->

Also guys, admins argue because they ''know''. I'm not even kidding here, they actually ''know'' more about the wiki than the average user in most cases. An admin is not chosen because they have a bajillion edits or are always around monitoring. An admin is chosen based on what they have done for ''this'' wiki, what they offer ''this'' wiki, their knowlege of policy on ''this'' wiki, their judgment of situations related to ''this'' wiki... I could go on, but you get my point. I argue so forcefully because I do so honestly believe that I am right. I have always been that way, even back in March and April of 2009. This is not to say that users are not as educated as admins, but admins usually have more experience on ''this'' wiki and can make a better judgment based on past events and wiki policy that many users are not fully aware of.}}

{{KKD|roxas2=Sorry, Kryten. It seems I misphrased some things, and you took them into the wrong context. Fixing/response (These won't be in order, as I called them as I saw them):

I absolutely cannot agree with defining "I hate x, he's no fun" as a "fun atmosphere". That attitude is simply too alien to me for me to even respond to your complaint. <br>~Those were intended to be two separate scenarios, not one altogether.

It is completely unfair to ask that admins are only allowed to edit certain portions of the site. Like you said, we are editors to. The attitude behind that is what forced me to stay out of the Mirage Arena discussion until it got out of hand, and it was unfair to me. <br>~ I didn't mean it like that. I was just pointing out that when the two mix... it usually doesn't work out too well.

The main complaint about the Mirage Arena was that it would attract users who only showed up for the arena, and do no actual work. This is not a theory - it's what happened on the FF wiki, and what's been happening here (I've seen certain editors placing maintenance tags on articles that have no need of them, just for edit count). Furthermore, it's simply not true that "whenever a group tries to implement some fun...it gets shut down", and it's unfair to the staff to claim that. The IRC was at the suggestion of the staff (as far as I know), for instance. There are certainly ways to fix the Mirage Arena problem, but let's not pretend that a certain staffer just said "No" for no reason. <br>~1. '''We are NOT the Final Fantasy Wiki. We can make this work the way we want it to, and the FFWiki's failure with their MA does not reflect how ours is going to turn out.''' <br>2. Even though the "certain staffer" gave a reason for disliking the MA, it was a prejudiced one. If I remember correctly, it went something like this: ''"I simply detest the idea of non-staffers running something to the likes of the Mirage Arena".'' To me, a prejudiced reason such as that, is '''''no reason'''''.

Talk pages were frowned upon ''not'' just "because it clogged the RC", but because certain users were using the talk pages to harass other users. I'm sure everyone knows one of the main ones; she left the wiki for good a while ago. Another was banned from the IRC, and another still does it, and she knows who she is. Furthermore, the decision was at the hands of the community, not just the staff. <br> ~My bad, I don't believe I was active here when that happened, thus I said what I had experienced and heard. Call it ignorance on my part, if you want.

The admins are ''very'' "warm and kind", to editors that do good work. Case in point: ShardofTruth. I'm almost ready to build a statue for the guy. Adola: Even if I have plenty of disagreements with him, his incredibly thorough work has resulted in actual monetary donations to him. However, while I can certainly be polite, I'm simply not going to spare praise to an editor who never works. And none of us expect praise unless we do work. <br>~ I can't cease to find things wrong with that first sentence. That kind of exclusiveness belongs nowhere. Every editor (but to less extent, trolls) should be treated equally. No exceptions. Sure, a pat on the back for a job well done is okay, but don't idolize a select few users over all others.

I can blankly state that kissing up to staffers does not make it more likely to get a promotion. The only time I'll remember you complimenting me is if it gets annoying, and I'll only remember you badmouthing me if it becomes vandalism. <br>~Fair enough, however. It is common belief among regular users, so thanks for clearing that up.

While we all say that it's such a sad thing that the IRC is going down, the base fact of it is, it's all of your faults. None of you are innocent of spamming, trolling, etc. The way to fix it isn't to blame the ops for heavyhandedness or absence, the way to fix it is to simply be better people, and encourage others to do the same. It's a brutal truth, but it's a truth. <br>~I can't help but notice that in most of these, you're not including yourself/the other admins in your accusations. This is exactly what I meant by saying "some of the admins need to get off of their high horses". You're no better than anyone, and nobody's any better than you. What's it gonna take for you to understand a concept as simple as equality?

And to DTN: That tactic of mine? Wasn't me. I asked LegoAlchemist for what he remembered of the conversation, and he gave it to me. I misinterpreted it as full, so my apologies. }}
{{DTN|time=00:52, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=KingdomKeyDarkside, I think that my post above should act as rebuttles to most of the replies you just posted; I did accuse admins, ops, and '''''everyone''''' of not following the rules, among other points.

Okay, this is my main concern: ''"We are NOT the Final Fantasy Wiki. We can make this work the way we want it to, and the FFWiki's failure with their MA does not reflect how ours is going to turn out."''

... this is evidence, KingdomKeyDarkside, evidence. That is like saying that if you put vinegar and baking soda in a cup, and the product fizzes, then putting the exact same amounts of vinegar and baking soda into a carbon copy of that cup will not result in it fizzing. You don't even provide a reason why the "vinegar and baking soda won't fizz", being the success of the Mirage Arena, with a different "scientist", being the wiki, performing the experiment. Evidence is evidence, and it cannot be denied.

Also, you say all editors deserve equal treatment. That's just it, we do that. But an editor's actions can act as the "cause" of certain "effects" of this treatment. For example, if a user does outstanding work, we will praise them. If a user vandalizes, we will warn them. If a user causes drama, we will try and settle it or move of off-wiki. All cases are the same, we do not intentionally try to praise one user specifically and not another user. If a user does good work, they can expect praise for their deeds from us. If they do not contribute to the wiki's growth and instead just laze around in the forums and user talkspace, they certainly won't expect "Good job!" or "That's some great editing!" messages on their talk page.}}

Okay, let's suppose your theory is true. There's one thing you're missing. The variables (not just one...). Let's assume that the MA is the vinegar, and KHW and FFW are the scientists. Here's the kicker: The compound that is added to the vinegar: The communities of the two. The FFWiki is baking soda, and KHW is... an undetermined substance. Sure, the baking soda and vinegar will fizz, but who knows if the vinegar and the undetermined substance will? Only time will tell. So I ask you, give it some time to grow! We'll get rid of it if need be. EDIT 01:44, August 3, 2010 (UTC):Anyway, I was just trying to express my opinion. Please return to your regularly scheduled sunshine, peace, love and flowers. SSIC floats on me.{{KKDSig|1}}

{{Maggosh|flint=Wow, guys, there goes the whole "peace, love, and flowers" vibe we had going on. Did you two lose it after your SSIC floats ran out? Then I suggest you get a refill, because this is distracting from this forum's aim.}}
:Vinegar and baking soda act as one unit in this analogy, they cannot be seperated. However, I suggest moving this to a side-page or hiding it, since it kind of, as maggosh says, kills the mood of the forum. How would you like to do this, KKD? --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 02:15, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
:Anything's fine by me. However, as far as I'm concerned, this arguement is over. No winners, no losers. {{KKDSig|1}}

{{iZerox|time=05:08, August 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=Okay I'm posting here just to acknowledge that I've read all this. And I must say it's quite the amount of text to read. I agree that the Wiki should be fun oriented to an extent. But honestly there has to be a tad bit of seriousness else we'll have quite the mess on our hands. Though I do believe there are some people who take things too seriously or too far in rare instances. I'll admit I've only been here for just under a year but none the less I'm quickly learning how things work around here. I'll admit I've had my own share of "edit wars" or whatever you want to call them. But it was merely because of a lack of understanding and mislead ideas. I believe that most the problems around the wiki are probably because of similar sources. But we can move on beyond that.

I used to get incredibly frustrated with ENX but now I consider ENX a friend. I don't know how mutual the feeling is. But the point is that because I took the time to see his point and find understanding things are now much better between us. I extend the same invitation to other wikians to try to get to see other's point of views so that we can come to a better understanding of each other. Life is better with a friend than alone and surrounded by enemies.

Anyway that's just my two cents.}}
{{GeniusMage|text=Well said ENX well said indeed *nods*. I"m going to admit back when I joined(as Firaga44) I thought this place was the best. I came on here everyday after school. I would talk to my friends here and try to find grammar errors to fix and whenever I did I smiled. Whenever I could help someone I smiled. Them saying"Thank you" gave me great joy and just couldn't help but keep that smile. Nowadays...well the wiki seems different from the old days of greatness it had. I kinda wonder sometimes why I even stay here anymore. It just seems like the great days the wiki had has faded away. I'm sounding stupid so i'll end this here >.<}}
@@ Line 163: / Line 163: @@
 Anyway that's just my two cents.}}
 {{GeniusMage|text=Well said ENX well said indeed *nods*. I"m going to admit back when I joined(as Firaga44) I thought this place was the best. I came on here everyday after school. I would talk to my friends here and try to find grammar errors to fix and whenever I did I smiled. Whenever I could help someone I smiled. Them saying"Thank you" gave me great joy and just couldn't help but keep that smile. Nowadays...well the wiki seems different from the old days of greatness it had. I kinda wonder sometimes why I even stay here anymore. It just seems like the great days the wiki had has faded away. I'm sounding stupid so i'll end this here >.<}}
-{{LA|Vtext=Jesus.
-I like maggosh's idea, for starters.
-Secondly, I'm blown away at how fast we stomped Kate's words into the dust.
-All of our (I love the way Kryten put it) Wall o' text battleships are screaming that we all believe "THE WIKI IS SERIOUS BUSINESS". So, almost everyone who had a light and happy conversation on the formal forum just ate their own intentions. This is stupid, saddening, and, quite frankly, old.
-We're better than this. We don't need to make a point with a huge talk bubble of text. I read all of this, and pretty much wasted half-an-hour of my life. I could've been chatting with friends. Or read a book. Or watched an episode of LOST. Or drawn some comics.
-We have to stop competing with each other about "who can make the biggest wall of text and how persuasive it can be". It's becoming a cesspool, and it's the only reason out wiki is going to have problems. If we can just agree with each other now and then without trying to argue, we can, as it was said, join hands in harmony, achieve what perfection can be achieved.
-In other words, stop ranting and get back to work.
-As for me, I'm tired of this. I'm going to go watch some LOST. I hope to finish all the seasons again before season six comes out on Netflix.}}