Editing Forum:Who's staying, Who's going?
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{{Forumheader | {{Forumheader|The World that Never was}} | ||
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==Enhancements== | ==Enhancements== | ||
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===Staying on the fan-oriented wiki=== | ===Staying on the fan-oriented wiki=== | ||
===Going to the new address=== | ===Going to the new address=== | ||
*[[File:Way to the Dawn KHII.png|20px]]'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User:Chitalian8|<span style="color:#C00000;">Chitalian</span>]][[User talk:Chitalian8|<span style="color:3300FF;">8</span>]]</span>'''[[file:Wayward Wind KHBBS.png|20px]] 21:22, November 15, 2010 (UTC) | *[[File:Way to the Dawn KHII.png|20px]]'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User:Chitalian8|<span style="color:#C00000;">Chitalian</span>]][[User talk:Chitalian8|<span style="color:3300FF;">8</span>]]</span>'''[[file:Wayward Wind KHBBS.png|20px]] 21:22, November 15, 2010 (UTC) | ||
* | *{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}21:30, November 15, 2010 (UTC) | ||
*{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 23:32, November 15, 2010 (UTC) | *{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 23:32, November 15, 2010 (UTC) | ||
*I could very well stay here to do some test coding and such (like the game that I'm trying to figure out), but the other one will be my home. {{The Inexistentsig}} | *I could very well stay here to do some test coding and such (like the game that I'm trying to figure out), but the other one will be my home. {{The Inexistentsig}} | ||
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*I'm changing my position. If Sannse represents Wikia, then I no longer want to have anything to do with it--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 02:39, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | *I'm changing my position. If Sannse represents Wikia, then I no longer want to have anything to do with it--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 02:39, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
*Personally, I don't want to move, but if we are going to put fanon stuff here, I would leave. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] 23:08, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | *Personally, I don't want to move, but if we are going to put fanon stuff here, I would leave. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] 23:08, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
===Going to work on both=== | ===Going to work on both=== | ||
*Me too, I'll just try and keep the vandals away here. Expect me to be more active on the new site. {{User:17master/Sign}}13:03, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | |||
*99% new address, 1% old address. But that's still "both". <span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span>]][[User_talk:Soxra|<span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span>]][[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 04:16, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | *99% new address, 1% old address. But that's still "both". <span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span>]][[User_talk:Soxra|<span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span>]][[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 04:16, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
==Discussion== | ==Discussion== | ||
I think I should jump in here to be clear that the ''wiki'' won't be moving, even if some of the editors here choose to fork the wiki and edit elsewhere. The wiki and all its content will still be here and open for editing. The idea of documenting more of the fan-based stuff sounds great, and I like the ideas that people have put forward about how to distinguish between the two types with templates or a different namespace. But it also needs to be acknowledged that the content that's been built here will still be here, and anything else should ''enhance'' that not replace it :) -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[ | I think I should jump in here to be clear that the ''wiki'' won't be moving, even if some of the editors here choose to fork the wiki and edit elsewhere. The wiki and all its content will still be here and open for editing. The idea of documenting more of the fan-based stuff sounds great, and I like the ideas that people have put forward about how to distinguish between the two types with templates or a different namespace. But it also needs to be acknowledged that the content that's been built here will still be here, and anything else should ''enhance'' that not replace it :) -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 05:58, November 16, 2010 (UTC) (p.s. there are a few discussion pages now, so I wasn't sure where to add this - please move it if you prefer! | ||
:Uh, yeah. We know. What makes you think we ever thought differently? i think what he meant by "moved wiki" was "wiki we are moving to".--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:03, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | :Uh, yeah. We know. What makes you think we ever thought differently? i think what he meant by "moved wiki" was "wiki we are moving to".--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 06:03, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::The Q Continuum weeps. Don't patronize us, we know what we're doing. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 06:05, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ::The Q Continuum weeps. Don't patronize us, we know what we're doing. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 06:05, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::It's a fair concern because traditionally when you say that something is "moving," that means it's being taken from one place and being put in another. In this case, it's more like something is being copied to somewhere else, at which point it will take on a life of its own, but the original is still there too to take on yet a different life. [[User:Agent0042|Agent0042]] 11:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | :::It's a fair concern because traditionally when you say that something is "moving," that means it's being taken from one place and being put in another. In this case, it's more like something is being copied to somewhere else, at which point it will take on a life of its own, but the original is still there too to take on yet a different life. [[User:Agent0042|Agent0042]] 11:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::"But it also needs to be acknowledged that the content that's been built here will still be here," - That's not how a wiki works, sannse. The content on a wiki is at the discretion of that wiki's current community - if the current community wants to dump the content and put up their own content instead, that is perfectly within their rights. Claiming that the wikia wiki would need to keep some kind of memorial or shrine to the previous community is a bizarre misinterpretation of how community-based wiki's have worked, ever.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 14:55, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ::"But it also needs to be acknowledged that the content that's been built here will still be here," - That's not how a wiki works, sannse. The content on a wiki is at the discretion of that wiki's current community - if the current community wants to dump the content and put up their own content instead, that is perfectly within their rights. Claiming that the wikia wiki would need to keep some kind of memorial or shrine to the previous community is a bizarre misinterpretation of how community-based wiki's have worked, ever.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 14:55, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::I'm not saying it should be forever fixed in place - of course it should develop and grow. But at the same time, what I've seen elsewhere is an intention to remove content from the parent wiki (by "changing the wiki's direction") in order to prevent it competing with the new wiki. From what I've read, that's not what's going on here :), but I wanted to be blunt about what is and isn't acceptable. If there's a need for a wiki with fan-based content and not the reference content already here, then you are welcome to make it. And, of course, you are welcome to build on the content here. But simply switching the purpose of this wiki in order to prevent competition with your fork is not a viable option. Even if there is consensus among those who have decided to move, there are the past and future communities of this wiki to consider. -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[ | :::I'm not saying it should be forever fixed in place - of course it should develop and grow. But at the same time, what I've seen elsewhere is an intention to remove content from the parent wiki (by "changing the wiki's direction") in order to prevent it competing with the new wiki. From what I've read, that's not what's going on here :), but I wanted to be blunt about what is and isn't acceptable. If there's a need for a wiki with fan-based content and not the reference content already here, then you are welcome to make it. And, of course, you are welcome to build on the content here. But simply switching the purpose of this wiki in order to prevent competition with your fork is not a viable option. Even if there is consensus among those who have decided to move, there are the past and future communities of this wiki to consider. -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 20:06, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:"I'm not saying it should be forever fixed in place[...]switching the purpose of this wiki in order to prevent competition with your fork is not a viable option." Make up your mind, willya? [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 20:19, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | :"I'm not saying it should be forever fixed in place[...]switching the purpose of this wiki in order to prevent competition with your fork is not a viable option." Make up your mind, willya? [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 20:19, November 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:Sannse, to be perfectly blunt, ''we'' are not switching the purpose of this wiki. Oasis switched the purpose of this wiki (and most others), ''by making comprehensive coverage of the sort that we sought untenable''. This is our attempt to find ''any'' purpose that is still doable, since our other option is just to dump a barely-functioning wreck on the community that stays behind, which will make them look bad, and sabotage the findability of the new site. | :Sannse, to be perfectly blunt, ''we'' are not switching the purpose of this wiki. Oasis switched the purpose of this wiki (and most others), ''by making comprehensive coverage of the sort that we sought untenable''. This is our attempt to find ''any'' purpose that is still doable, since our other option is just to dump a barely-functioning wreck on the community that stays behind, which will make them look bad, and sabotage the findability of the new site. | ||
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:We're trying to find a peaceful solution. Wikia is the one making this into a catfight by sending us missives like the one above. Its insulting to us, and doesn't engender any sympathy to you.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 21:35, November 16, 2010 (UTC)z | :We're trying to find a peaceful solution. Wikia is the one making this into a catfight by sending us missives like the one above. Its insulting to us, and doesn't engender any sympathy to you.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 21:35, November 16, 2010 (UTC)z | ||
::Maggosh: it shouldn't be fixed in place, but it also shouldn't be diminished in order to prevent competion with a fork. I don't see a contradiction there. | ::Maggosh: it shouldn't be fixed in place, but it also shouldn't be diminished in order to prevent competion with a fork. I don't see a contradiction there. | ||
::KrytenKoro: I don't have any intention to be patronizing or insulting. And I don't agree that there is anything in the skin change that means this wiki cannot continue to be a comprehensive resource on Kingdom Hearts. I think that's the fundamental difference of opinion here (you and I seem to have those a lot :-/ I'm sorry) -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[ | ::KrytenKoro: I don't have any intention to be patronizing or insulting. And I don't agree that there is anything in the skin change that means this wiki cannot continue to be a comprehensive resource on Kingdom Hearts. I think that's the fundamental difference of opinion here (you and I seem to have those a lot :-/ I'm sorry) -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 02:17, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::You had no intention of patronizing and insulting us, and yet you go right on ahead and do just that. Man, can you do anything that you intend to do? You intend to make a skin that improves on Monaco, you make one that's worse. You intend to persuade us to enjoy Oasis and for us to stay with Wikia, and now we can't wait to leave. You have no intention of patronizing and insulting us, and then you go right out and treat us like dirt who don't know what they're doing. AM I THE ONLY ONE NOTICING A PATTERN HERE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? <small>P.S., don't try and argue with Kryten, it won't end well for you. Believe me, I know from personal experience</small>--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 02:29, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | :::You had no intention of patronizing and insulting us, and yet you go right on ahead and do just that. Man, can you do anything that you intend to do? You intend to make a skin that improves on Monaco, you make one that's worse. You intend to persuade us to enjoy Oasis and for us to stay with Wikia, and now we can't wait to leave. You have no intention of patronizing and insulting us, and then you go right out and treat us like dirt who don't know what they're doing. AM I THE ONLY ONE NOTICING A PATTERN HERE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? <small>P.S., don't try and argue with Kryten, it won't end well for you. Believe me, I know from personal experience</small>--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 02:29, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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:Kryten: "One of the first things Wikia mentioned about the Oasis transition was that infoboxes would no longer fit." - Infoboxes still fit, I'm not sure where that quote came from. They don't have as much room compared to the view on larger monitors before Oasis, and I personally like the idea a feature that allows them to be in the right sidebar, but they are certainly still a workable and key element of many pages. (Random trivia: I was instrumental in getting them named "infoboxes" originally, in the early days of Wikipedia. When they were first used they were called "taxoboxes" and just used for biology articles, but that name didn't work as we started using them more widely) | :Kryten: "One of the first things Wikia mentioned about the Oasis transition was that infoboxes would no longer fit." - Infoboxes still fit, I'm not sure where that quote came from. They don't have as much room compared to the view on larger monitors before Oasis, and I personally like the idea a feature that allows them to be in the right sidebar, but they are certainly still a workable and key element of many pages. (Random trivia: I was instrumental in getting them named "infoboxes" originally, in the early days of Wikipedia. When they were first used they were called "taxoboxes" and just used for biology articles, but that name didn't work as we started using them more widely) | ||
:On being patronizing: I disagree I am being so, your perception is different. All I can do right now is to keep trying to change that perception. If another IRC chat will help us with that, I'd be happy to do that. | :On being patronizing: I disagree I am being so, your perception is different. All I can do right now is to keep trying to change that perception. If another IRC chat will help us with that, I'd be happy to do that. | ||
:LapisScarab: I may not be able to give you what you want, that's not the same as ignoring you. A lot of changes have been made in response to feedback, and that will continue as the skin develops over time and we gather more data on actual use. I acknowledge that you are forking, and I'm not trying to stop that -- just to prevent harm to this wiki as you do so. It comes down to what I said elsewhere: you have the right to fork, you do not have the right to control the future of a wiki you have left. I know I've failed to persuade you to stay, so now I'm here to work with you and to try and make the fork as smooth as possible. -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[ | :LapisScarab: I may not be able to give you what you want, that's not the same as ignoring you. A lot of changes have been made in response to feedback, and that will continue as the skin develops over time and we gather more data on actual use. I acknowledge that you are forking, and I'm not trying to stop that -- just to prevent harm to this wiki as you do so. It comes down to what I said elsewhere: you have the right to fork, you do not have the right to control the future of a wiki you have left. I know I've failed to persuade you to stay, so now I'm here to work with you and to try and make the fork as smooth as possible. -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 16:37, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::A) You tried to insinuate that we didn't know what the hell we were doing, so no, you weren't patronizing us, you were flat out insulting our intelligence, which is not helping your case in the slightest. The only feedback you're "listening" to is the kind that tells you things you can fix, which probably takes up a small percentage of the feedback. The rest is telling you that Oasis is a complete failure and that Monaco was the better option and that it should be changed back, so yes, Sannse, you are ignoring us, or else you would have already known that.--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 17:28, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ::A) You tried to insinuate that we didn't know what the hell we were doing, so no, you weren't patronizing us, you were flat out insulting our intelligence, which is not helping your case in the slightest. The only feedback you're "listening" to is the kind that tells you things you can fix, which probably takes up a small percentage of the feedback. The rest is telling you that Oasis is a complete failure and that Monaco was the better option and that it should be changed back, so yes, Sannse, you are ignoring us, or else you would have already known that.--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 17:28, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::Time to tear that apart. As they have not yet actually left, they are still part of this wiki. On that grounds, they should be permitted to "control the future of the wiki" on the aforementioned grounds, even if that future is the elimination of the wiki. If you believe the contrary, then under the same reasoning, no one, including yourself, should have any control over anything, editting or otherwise regarding this wiki (or any for that matter). This is not a matter of opinion, this is the simple logic that you seem to wish to deny those that are still here (even if they claim to be leaving) the same rights as those that are still here (that haven't made such a claim, or have claimed the opposite). The fact of the matter is that they are, in fact, still here. They still have the same rights to alter the future of this wiki, in the same way you had the right to alter it by introducing and forcing Oasis upon it, which many, including myself view as vandalism of the highest degree, so do not attempt to label their wish to delete the wiki as vandalism, as Oasis, by definition, is vandalism (destroys wikis).--[[User:Zyeriis|Zyeriis]] 23:00, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ::Time to tear that apart. As they have not yet actually left, they are still part of this wiki. On that grounds, they should be permitted to "control the future of the wiki" on the aforementioned grounds, even if that future is the elimination of the wiki. If you believe the contrary, then under the same reasoning, no one, including yourself, should have any control over anything, editting or otherwise regarding this wiki (or any for that matter). This is not a matter of opinion, this is the simple logic that you seem to wish to deny those that are still here (even if they claim to be leaving) the same rights as those that are still here (that haven't made such a claim, or have claimed the opposite). The fact of the matter is that they are, in fact, still here. They still have the same rights to alter the future of this wiki, in the same way you had the right to alter it by introducing and forcing Oasis upon it, which many, including myself view as vandalism of the highest degree, so do not attempt to label their wish to delete the wiki as vandalism, as Oasis, by definition, is vandalism (destroys wikis).--[[User:Zyeriis|Zyeriis]] 23:00, November 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::ShadowsTwilight: I think that anything I say to you right now (including this probably) is going to be heard in a tone I don't intend. I understand that you think Oasis is a failure and should be removed, disagreeing with you is not ignoring you. | :::ShadowsTwilight: I think that anything I say to you right now (including this probably) is going to be heard in a tone I don't intend. I understand that you think Oasis is a failure and should be removed, disagreeing with you is not ignoring you. | ||
:::Zyeriis, I'll copy a part from my talk page: ''I agree that bringing a fan focus to the wiki would not be harmful - that's a viable choice for any wiki, just as a strictly encyclopedic focus to content is. The part that worries me is "this wiki would no longer have comprehensive coverage". If that involves deleting perfectly good articles that are useful to readers and any future community of this wiki, especially if the intention in doing that is to prevent competition with a fork, then that's the part I have a problem with.'' -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[ | :::Zyeriis, I'll copy a part from my talk page: ''I agree that bringing a fan focus to the wiki would not be harmful - that's a viable choice for any wiki, just as a strictly encyclopedic focus to content is. The part that worries me is "this wiki would no longer have comprehensive coverage". If that involves deleting perfectly good articles that are useful to readers and any future community of this wiki, especially if the intention in doing that is to prevent competition with a fork, then that's the part I have a problem with.'' -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 07:59, November 22, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::Don't worry, Sannse, I understand what Wikia is heading with the change on the skin, updating and keeping with the new trend on internet these days. I as an editor will help the wiki adapt to the changes Wikia has given us. I had not been bitter when Wikia forced Quartz, then Monaco, then New Look and refuses to allow Monobook to become the default skin for users out there, and I am still not bitter now, because as long as Monobook is around, I have no problems with it. In any case, as I have been supporting Monaco as much as I love Monobook (and I still am using Monobook right this instance), I will also help the wiki to upkeep New Look. | ::::Don't worry, Sannse, I understand what Wikia is heading with the change on the skin, updating and keeping with the new trend on internet these days. I as an editor will help the wiki adapt to the changes Wikia has given us. I had not been bitter when Wikia forced Quartz, then Monaco, then New Look and refuses to allow Monobook to become the default skin for users out there, and I am still not bitter now, because as long as Monobook is around, I have no problems with it. In any case, as I have been supporting Monaco as much as I love Monobook (and I still am using Monobook right this instance), I will also help the wiki to upkeep New Look. | ||
::::Anyway, removing content from this wiki because of so-called "competition" is pretty much not helping to the wikia wiki. Content is the most important part of the wiki, not skins, not addons, not tools. Give one wiki as much tools as it can, if there's no content to write, then the wiki won't be of much help at all. If there are users who attempt to remove content from the wiki, it will stand as a bad-faith edit. To be sure, I don't believe there would be anything like a "competition": this wiki, while retaining its present content, is going to add new content in terms of fan and real-life aspects, thus in a way, it's not going to hinder the moving wiki's purpose of being "encyclopedic". | ::::Anyway, removing content from this wiki because of so-called "competition" is pretty much not helping to the wikia wiki. Content is the most important part of the wiki, not skins, not addons, not tools. Give one wiki as much tools as it can, if there's no content to write, then the wiki won't be of much help at all. If there are users who attempt to remove content from the wiki, it will stand as a bad-faith edit. To be sure, I don't believe there would be anything like a "competition": this wiki, while retaining its present content, is going to add new content in terms of fan and real-life aspects, thus in a way, it's not going to hinder the moving wiki's purpose of being "encyclopedic". | ||
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:I wouldn't go as far as ''executing'' her, Kryten, but you have a point. {{The Inexistentsig}} | :I wouldn't go as far as ''executing'' her, Kryten, but you have a point. {{The Inexistentsig}} | ||
