Editing Forum:We need a Walkthrough space, yah?

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
{{EO|time=15:45, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|talktext=For those who do not know, I was on a long and sub-permanent Wiki-break because I was busy playing ''Final Fantasy XIII'' and contributing to the Final Fantasy Wiki. I spent a great deal of time writing walkthroughs for the games I possessed, and I started wondering why we didn't have anything like that here... I mean, several users have walkthroughs in their sub-pages, so why not create a Walkthrough space like the FFWiki has, where we can show off these users' hard work in style? 

I know some of you are thinking "Oh, but this will distract users from editing the mainspace, and that equals TEH EBIL!!!" However, the Final Fantasy Wiki is significantly bigger than ours, and while several users devote time to walkthrough-writing, the mainspace there is never 100% dead. I'm almost certain it'd be the same case here. While you could also say a Walkthrough space will make boss articles redundant or vice versa, it certainly would allow us to clean those articles up so they aren't crammed with 10 different strategies from different users who have beaten a particular boss... 

I believe this topic has been glanced at in the past, but now I feel it is time we make our decision as a community. Place your opinion below. A "yay" or a "nay" is fine. <small><small><small>(No wall of text from me this time... odd >_>)</small></small></small>}}

{{AlVan|time17:38, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=We do have a walkthrough page (at least the last time I checked). But none of them are finished and most of them are for KHII. I have similar beliefs that these guys should act more like the guys on the FF wiki, but instead they are obsessed with going by the rules and fixing anything they don't think belongs. Engaging in conversations on talk pages shouldn't be so strict unless there isn't much room left or if it is completely off subject. But what really ticks me off is when I post forums and no one else has a say in it. It is for these reasons that making walkthroughs will have to be done by you and I guess I can help out. I WILL NOT WRITE A WALKTHROUGH FOR RE:CODED.}}

{{Chitalian8|time=17:52, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|talk= AlVan, for one, please don't go off-topic. Also, this has barely been discussed by the community, so don't go making pages just yet. I personally agree with a walkthrough namespace, as long as they are written professionally and reviewed by the community before they are published. After all, the walkthroughs should definitely have guidelines, like being written in PG-rated language.}}

{{AlVan|time17:59, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Okay, but don't delete it just yet. I do have a feeling that this is gonna take off. Oh crud. I just remembered. Kryten (jerk) will delete the page in a heartbeat if he's not doing it already while I'm typing this.}}
{{KrytenKoro|emotion=happy|@AlVan: I know I'll have to do a round in the manufactory for this, but AlVan, you are an imbecile. Your inability to stay on any semblance of topic on talk pages is your own fault, not anybody else's. If you truly think that it is a bad thing to "fix anything that doesn't belong"...then, again, you're an imbecile.
*I'm willing to do a round in the manufactory as soon as you are, since you did a blatant PA above. If you don't want to do one, then can the next admin who sees this give both of us warnings, thanks.

@ENX: Absolutely do this. I was trying to get one started through talks on the IRC last month, but that soured...however, I would love for us to have a "KHWIKI official walkthrough" for each game, in the vein of the Mission articles. [[Avatar Menu]] is, in part, an attempt to make such a page for that portion of Re:coded; I've started a very rough draft for Re:coded under my own name, as well.

I'm not sure if the logs still exist anywhere (it's the ones between me and Random, don't know if anybody kept them), but my plan is that, as we go through the audit, we pick out all the walkthroughs and mark them (using temporary categories). Then, we can start an official walkthrough for each game, using all the info that can be leeched from each walkthrough; once done, the old walkthroughs will be deleted.

This could also work hand-in-hand with our youtube channel - one of my main goals in working with Erry to get it setup was that we would have our own channel that covered all of the walkthrough vids we would ever need.

In summary: YES, YES, YES. I would love for you to head this up, ENX, or at the very least, start developing the guidelines and discussion needed to get this all figured out so that we can proceed.}}

{{AlVan|time18:15, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Me and you just have a lot of different beliefs. We might as well just stop now before the entire forum goes off topic. I personally don't think that this counts as personal "attack". In my opinion the Heartless Manufactory should be for actual threats not minor name-calling.}}
{{KrytenKoro|It totally does, and since I'm the one who proposed the manufactory, I know what it's for. Another admin should be giving us both pa warnings soon, and if I recall, the consensus at the last roundtable was that pa warnings MUST be worked off, or the offenders get blocks.

Yay, I get to be the testing case!}}
{{neumannz|time=18:19, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=EDIT CONFLICT

Next admin says, "Hi. Yeah. Go do that, you two."

We definitely do need this. Kryten summed up pretty well what needs to be done re: existing walkthroughs. I remember SorcerorNobody had a crapload of material on... Days, maybe? I believe Erry (Re:coded) and maybe TNE had some stuff, too. We'll probably need to test them as we go along. (Also, maybe we should consider moving the mission articles to the Walkthrough space?)

@AlVan: OK, seriously. You shouldn't be jumping the gun here. If you want to contribute to this project, don't bother with an empty index page. If you can start a your own walkthrough (in your own userspace), or look for existing walkthroughs on the wiki, do that. This is still in the planning phase, so don't be worried about creating pages, yet.}}
{{KrytenKoro|By they way, people - DO NOT START PAGES YET. If you use "Walkthrough:X" before the "Walkthrough" namespace is actually created, it totally f*cks with the creation of that namespace. Wait until the community approves the idea, AND porple installs the namespace.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=18:22, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text= GOT-DAMN DOUBLE EDIT CONFLICT: Well, for walkthroughs that we could "leech info off of", I can only think of TNE's Re:Chain one, since that's the prime example of a high-quality walkthrough here. For boss strategies, we could always consult the BradyGames guides. Even if those do suck, they got the boss parts right. Plus, it gives us a new project for the Heartless Manufactory.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Oh, I know most of the walkthroughs we find will be mere drafts of little values. However, once we start official walkthroughs, we don't need the drafts anymore - we should take everything we can, and burn the remains.

Strategies - for the videos and walkthroughs, we should use whatever strategy we outline in the present boss articles. If those strategies need to be corrected, that's one thing, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to be preaching one thing on the boss article, another thing in the walkthrough, and a totally different thing with the provided videos.

In the past, there were youtubers who asked about doing an affiliated Let's Play with us. We never got any followup info on those, but we should absolutely advertise that we'd love to work with them on getting these videos. Erry has the keys to the youtube account, though, so whichever videos we end up choosing will have to be approved by him.

With a dedicated walkthrough space, we could also provide a link to alternate videos; something like "See here for alternate strategies", with links to a playlist on our channel, or to the corresponding video on an affiliate's walkthrough.

I have to stress, though, that any videos we use in a walkthrough MUST BE USED WITH PERMISSION - the ones we use on boss articles are fair use temporaries until we make our own versions, but for this walkthrough...we have no such excuse. We should probably keep a logfile in the upcoming Walkthrough space that archives any permission notices we get, or that people suggest asking for.}}

{{Chitalian8|time=18:34, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|sad= I say we shouldn't delete personal user walkthroughs, even after we have the official ones. Dunno, it doesn't feel right, just deleting someone's hard work like that. We should at least run it by the users before we delete them.}}

{{AlVan|time18:39, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=I second that. I hate it when stuff gets deleted. It would be a lot worse if it's their own personal pages,}}
{{EO|time=19:14, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=I meant we create a walkthrough space in a similar fashion to FFWiki's. We let the users each write a walkthrough for each game, and then we let them link to their guide on a main page upon its completion... That's how I'd prefer we carry this out.

If you wanted a walkthrough space where the entire Wiki gathered together to make one walkthrough per game (which would make the boss articles and pretty much any other informative page we have that details where things are found, et cetera, redundant), I'd say we try something like this:

1)Choose a game we want to write a walkthrough for (I'd start with ''Birth by Sleep'' and write the guides in chronological order). We could even divide the walkthroughs amongst the Wiki's users (Users A-E handle ''BBS'', Users F-S handle ''KH2'', Users S-Z handle ''Days'', something like that)<br> 
2)Assemble a team to put together each portion of the guide (Example: User X puts in statistic tables, User Y writes boss strategies, and User Z makes the walkthrough "look pretty" with coding mastery and a few well-placed images). As I said above, we can assign this to multiple users for multiple guides.<br>
3) Upon a walkthrough's ROUGH DRAFT completion, we have a staffer or other regular proofread and fix any grammatical errors and make sure everything listed is accurate to the games.

I know that handling this Walkthrough space like FFWiki does may be chaos at first, but we could always disband it temporarily and make revisions later... I just don't want to make the walkthroughs exactly like what mainspace is: Listing strategies and listing treasure locations where users argue and edit war daily. Then again, if the other staffers and I meet (I'd love to be in charge of this whole escapade since I love writing walkthroughs and am well-experienced in doing so) via IRC, we can discuss setting up an actual policy for this "group effort" idea...}}
{{AlVan|time19:17, 14 April 2011 (EDT)|text=That's what I meant too. We can't pile everything into one place. That would change the entire wiki.}}

{{Asif|shonormal=I'm not a very good writer, but I happen to be an ''excellent'' re-writer, so I'll try to help out with the revising of the walkthroughs.  I'll check for grammar/spelling mistakes, rewrite anything that sounds confusing, etc., if that's okay.}}
{{KrytenKoro|The main problem with having individual walkthroughs is that everyone loses steam, and everyone makes errors. If we were just going to link the walkthroughs that are up already...well, that's not too different than what we're doing now, and then why are none of them done yet? Let's be honest - if we treat this as "an index of completed user walkthroughs", it will remain empty, forever.

And then, like Asif said, some editors are much better at proofreading then at rough writing.

As for making other parts of the wiki redundant - well, in a lot of cases, the way we're handling it now doesn't work. For example, the coverage of treasure chests in each world is not only woefully incomplete, but pretty messy and non-uniform. Furthermore, it ends up clogging up the world pages; moving these sections off to high-quality walkthroughs could ease that.

Furthermore, a lot of the boss articles are already having to deal with redundancy, via the Coliseum strategy pages. Then we have all the mini-game articles, which are generally a mess because no one remembers they are there.

The main reason the walkthroughs need to get deleted is that, to a one, they are all aborted efforts. There is a lot of good tangents and ideas, but no one has been able to finish up a single walkthrough. As they are now, they're really just clutter. There's also the fact that the userspace is still meant to be used towards completing the mainspaces.}}

{{The Inexistent|samurai='''I'm all for the idea.  HOWEVER, I agree more with the "official, one walkthrough per game" idea.  If the entire community focuses in on a walkthrough (like we did with TNE's), we could really polish it up to accompany the mainspace articles.  AND THEN, on the bottom, we could have a list of user sub page walkthroughs.  I also agree with the Youtube idea.  I am absolutly terrible at video games, so I woulod just be a rewriter (like Asif) or something else...'''}}

{{Asif|sho=One question: when we make the walkthrough for 358/2 Days, how will we integrate it with the already made Mission articles?

Also, am I the only one getting a Wakka vibe from the forum's name?}}

{{17m|text= I'm late, aren't I...?

Anyways I fully agree with the idea, and I admit what Kryten said is right, my Days walkthrough's progress stopped because I actually stopped playing the game. <small> seriously doing the same thing over and over in a world or another is too damn boring </small>

If we're going to make an ''official walkthrough from KHWiki'' then I'll help with the project. Heck, you can even use the infos I have on my Days walkthrough.}}

{{Uxie|time=11:22, 15 April 2011 (EDT)|luna={{Uxie-TT|Tutoriales en mi sangre!|Walkthroughs are in my blood!}} I also love tips and gags! I'll be happy to help with the walkthroughs for KHII and BbS!

However, I'm still going to use my Legado for the T&G, since I don't want to upset Kryten.}}
{{EO|time=14:44, 15 April 2011 (EDT)|talktext=I see sense in your words, Kryten. I just think that everyone contributing to a walkthrough would just be utter chaos in the end. I personally don't want to deal with "You completely changed MY strategy! How dare you!?", so that's why I brought up the whole "individual guides" thing. 

I actually plan to write a ''Birth by Sleep'' guide, considering the official one is basically garbage and a waste of trees, which we can use as a model.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Oh, no no no no. I'm not at all suggesting that the guide say something like "This is the only way to do this, this is the correct way." There can totally be something like:

;Xemnas IV
*Attacks
*Strategies
**DTN's strategy
**ENX's strategy
**Inexistent's strategy
**KrytenKoro's strategy

The gist of a unified guide is, instead, that we have clear organization (so that the reader quickly knows how to use each guide), the best aesthetics the mass of us can think of, and enough copyeditors and discussion to produce fact-checked work with no typographical errors.

For example, what if someone had good strategies for all but one boss, and that's the one where they said "Just go out and train until you're level 100"? Well, that would make that strategy bad, but there's no reason to shelve their guide just because they had one stumbling block. A conglomerate guide would instead allow us to cover any mistakes or weaknesses the other's have, and vice versa.}}

{{AlVan|time15:19, 15 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Maybe we should take both idea's into account. Perhaps two separate walkthrough indexes (Wiki and Individual). It's a comprimise we can all settle on, isn't it? However, we shouldn't put any incomplete walktrough pages on either index.}}

[http://www.khwiki.net/index.php?title=Forum%3AWe_need_a_Walkthrough_space%2C_yah%3F&action=historysubmit&diff=485170&oldid=485169 This should be an ample response to your questions.]  {{The Inexistentsig}} 16:17, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
{{EO|time=16:22, 15 April 2011 (EDT)|text=If we can get polls working, we can handle choosing how we do walkthroughs that way. Anyways, I started a BBS guide I have the intent of finishing. I only have the main page of it done, but here is a model using what I consider to be proper formatting if we do things individually:
[http://www.khwiki.net/User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Kingdom_Hearts_Birth_by_Sleep_Walkthrough Click Me!]

The main page of an individual guide should have the following:

*Introduction states what game(s) the walkthrough covers.
*Table of Contents with non-confusing section titles.
*Optional "About the Author"
*Optional "Story Summary" (NOTE ALL STORY SUMMARIES MUST BE '''SPOILER-FREE''')
*Optional Disclaimer stating that you are not be held responsible of a strategy of yours doesn't work.
*Sources section listing where you obtain extra information from. You do NOT count as a source; it's obvious you're one considering you wrote the guide.

I'll be working on my BBS guide for as long as it takes to finish it. Here's hoping I don't give up!}}
{{SC|time=17:08, 15 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Dammit, get one damn computer virus and you miss out on everything.

I'm for the officical wiki walkthroughs. I read about until ENX talked about how we assign users to tasks (after that I wall all "tl;dr"), and I'm a good "look pretty-er-person-ology". If we don't do that, well, I'll proofread them anyway. 

So yeah, Crono approves.}}
:I don't see a problem with spoilerific story summaries as long as [[:Template:Spoiler|the appropriate markers]] are used to notate this. I approve of the idea, by the way. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 21:35, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

{{AlVan|time20:36, 17 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Should we start making the walkthroughs now because no one has said no yet.}}

'''No.'''  {{The Inexistentsig}} 20:53, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Well...................................................................ok. I could do either writing boss strategies or proofreading, though I'd prefer the former. {{User:CaelumLucisCaliga/Sig}} 21:56, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

{{UnknownChaser|time=Time is base on the reality of our fantasy.|Noctis=I hope I'm not too late, but based on quick reading on everything everyone else had said, I good for it. But ENX shouldn't we have people working on walkthrough based on their main area of expertise and not by user name? I'm more knowledgeable in BBS (I been playing the game for a year: the original Japanese version, the English version and now the Final Mix version) rather then Days.}}

{{EO|time=22:10, 17 April 2011 (EDT)|text=Okay, I'm currently with my aunt, hence the inactivity in terms of my BBS guide I was ranting about, and I'm battling a computer virus on my main home computer, but here's what I have to say about this forum's latest developments:

@DTN - The problem with "spoilerific" walkthroughs, even with spoiler tags (again, this would just be making Wiki-walkthroughs redundancies to the Wiki's contents itself), is that you read them when you're just starting the game, and you're like "Aaw, crap! The entire story was just ruined! What's the point in playing now?" It'd be the same thing as putting the last page of a book first. We may as well say "TERRA BECOMES XEHANORT" after every other word >_> Anyways, I'm glad you approve<br>
@A1Van - What The Inexistent said.<br>
@SilverCrono - Glad to have your support.<br>
@UnknownChaser - I merely suggested that method to make a point and better explain what I was thinking. As far as I know, that is not how we will do things.<br> 

Once my aunt leaves tomorrow afternoon, I'll resume work on my personal guide. Hopefully I can get that virus fixed up (treating it requires completely re-installing Windows, re-establishing internet connection, and all that tedious trash), and then I'll be incrasing my activity even further thanks to being able to use my main computer again. Then again, I have a reasearch paper to write (during this wonderful spring break of mine, no less), so I'm not certain how much of what I just said will hold true...}}
{{DTN|time=23:48, 17 April 2011 (EDT)|text=I fail to comprehend that as justification.
''(again, this would just be making Wiki-walkthroughs redundancies to the Wiki's contents itself)''
::It is inevitable that writing a walkthrough will contain a degree of storyline in it. Even by just indicating what enemies you fight and worlds you fight in the during the final chapters of games can be interpreted as central parts of the story. Also, a walkthrough is going to be redundant to the wiki as a whole--the point is to bring multiple pieces of information together. For example, details in a walkthrough include boss strategies, locations of treasures chests, and navigation. These are all located on separate articles on the wiki for their respective individual topics.

''is that you read them when you're just starting the game, and you're like "Aaw, crap! The entire story was just ruined! What's the point in playing now?" It'd be the same thing as putting the last page of a book first. We may as well say "TERRA BECOMES XEHANORT" after every other word >_>''
::...No, I'm fairly certain that I would write "Welcome to the KHBBS walkthrough by DoorToNothing. This is the game where Aqua gets trapped in the Realm of Darkness, Ventus has his heart separated from him and is locked in the Chamber of Awakening, and Terra separates into the Lingering Will and Terra-Xehanort, the latter of which becomes Xehanort after losing its memories. Now, let's move on to basic controls." Assuming that the reader has the basic intelligence to (1) read the walkthrough in chronological order and (2) realize they are at a risk for spoilers if they choose to read further than they are in the game, there should be no problem with including spoilers, or even ''basic story summaries'' to at the very least explain events to the players. To exclude spoilers as a whole is like saying that you are not writing a walkthrough, but rather how to play the game, regardless of its story. You no longer are writing about a game, but rather about its gameplay, which certainly does ''not'' make up the entire game.

To all involved in discussion: it is extremely vital to keep in mind how much we are limited or restricting in a walkthrough. A walkthrough is an example of personal writing, and such needs to be decided to be written professionally or casually. Professionally seems to be in the vein of what KrytenKoro mentions of having "official wiki walkthroughs," though I don't see why other walkthroughs for the game cannot exist as well. It seems more to me that several of the restrictions and limitations defined here are better handled by the author of the walkthrough, their decision mostly dependent on what style they hope to achieve.

Also I have rocket-powered fists.}}

{{AlVan|time11:19, 26 April 2011 (EDT)|text=It's been a week since we last discussed this. Do we have our final decision yet?}}

{{Chitalian8|time=16:03, 26 April 2011 (EDT)|text= The fate of the Walkthroughspace will be decided at the upcoming [[KHWiki:Roundtable|Roundtable]], our monthly IRC meeting.}}

{{AlVan|time10:55, 1 May 2011 (EDT)|text=I guess that means I have no say in this...}}
{{Asif|sho=Well, you will have a say in it if you come to the meeting, but if not...}}
{{SilverCrono|time=10:59, 1 May 2011 (EDT)|text=This isn't Ancient Greece (was it Rome? >>), and this isn't an oligarchy. You come to the meeting, you talk, you get involved. Nobody is excluded as long as they try to be included. 

So yeah, come to the meeting and get your opinion considered.}}
Latest revision		Your text
Line 163:		Line 163:

	So yeah, come to the meeting and get your opinion considered.}}		So yeah, come to the meeting and get your opinion considered.}}

	~~But if he can't get on the IRC... {{The Inexistentsig}} 14:03, 1 May 2011 (EDT)~~