Editing Forum:Talk Sprites for Deletion

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=04:03, 5 January 2014 (UTC)|text=Ok, we started this discussion on the [[KHWiki:Pages for Deletion|Pages for Deletion]] page. The original discussion is here, before I give my response.}}

<i><b>From the Pages for Deletion page:</b>
==Talk sprites==
A lot of talk sprites from Days are marked for deletion. However, a lot of them are used for templates, which can cause problems if they were all deleted. I think those deletion tags should be removed. For example, the [[:File:DaysMickeySad.png|sad sprite of Mickey]] is on the [[Template:Unreleased|upcoming template]]. I really don't think these pages should be deleted. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 17:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC) not sure, but I think you're okay to remove the deletion tag on those. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}17:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
::First and foremost, unless a [[KHWiki:Staff|staff member]] says otherwise, assume everything in the deletion category is meant for deletion. You were right to bring the discussion up on here, instead of starting a mass removing spree. Anyways...No, do not remove the deletion tag on the Days images. Those images have to be uploaded off the Wiki and linked back to whatever templates/pages they were on. The Days images are not "real" images. <small>Check out Spriter's Resource</small> They are user edited images created by Xiggie/DoorToNothing to be used by users for talk templates and the like. Under our old image policy such images were allowed. However, with our new policy such images should be deleted. I've been working on uploading the images in the deletion category to my personal Photobucket account for a while now. It's taking more time than it probably should, but I promise you they will be taken care of properly.--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 17:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

:So, they weren't just cropped from the game? They were completely fanmade from scratch? I find that hard to believe. But if those were fanmade, can someone use a capture card to replace them? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

:That sounds a little extreme, to require every user-edited image that is on the wiki to be uploaded off-wiki, especially when the images were talking about aren't just any images being used on just any user's talk bubbles, but they're images that (I assume) the administrators themselves chose to be used on these administrative templates. They serve a greater purpose than the passive pleasure of a few users, they actually have a purpose on the wiki, an important one at that. I think that there should be an exception for the images the administration has deemed to have an actual use on the wiki. I mean, otherwise, it sounds like we would have to remove every user-edited image on the wiki, among which include approx. 50 walkthrough images (38 of which I uploaded last week myself), the little symbols, including the one that symbolizes your status as administration (pretty sure SE never released a shiny keyblade logo), even the wiki logo itself (I know they didn't create a logo for us). {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}02:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
::The images were taken from the originals which can be found Category:Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days Sprite images. The images were not only flipped, but some where filled in from where the red banner used to be. As ridiculous as it sounds, if you check the older deletion logs, my personal Photobucket account, my edit count/edits you'll see exactly how many user images have been taken care of. There used to be over three pages in the Articles for Deletion category- meaning between the 401-600 image range. Now there are only 279. Heck, even check out [[User:Ultima The High Seraph|Ultima's]] userpage. At least seventy five percent of the 219 deletions came from user images. It's a long process, but it's getting there.<br>Some "user" images have been deemed okay to remain on the site, such as the staff template and Wiki logo, as you mentioned. As for the Walkthrough images, to my knowledge internal linking is not possible if using links from Photobucket/Imageshack. This could prove problematic to the walkthrough articles since we've apparently deemed that to be the way the articles should look.<br>As for images being used on administrative templates/elsewhere: see [[KHWiki:Userboxes|the userboxes]]. These images used to be held on Wiki, too. Now they're [[Template:User Keyhole|linked]] [[Template:User Jiminy Journal|from]] [[Template:User 358/2 Days|Photobucket]].<br>To be quite honest, I've waited this long to delete the Days images exactly for this reason. From what I've seen on here from other users/staff, those images should be hosted elsewhere and deleted. That is what I believe, too. Perhaps we should open a forum on this...--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 03:41, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

:::I'll do that (it is actually starting to become somewhat long....){{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}04:03, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
</i>

===Discussion===
{{KeybladeSpyMaster|text=I do not question your ability to delete and upload images off the wiki. I'm just suggesting that it could be easier to just leave these images here. I understand why you would want to remove them, I just thought that since they do not benefit one person's experience but rather the entire Wiki's function, and it serves a purpose in the actual editing process, it would be better to leave them on the wiki, or replace them with images that aren't unofficial.}}

{{Chainoffire|time=[[User:Chainoffire|Chainoffire]] ([[User talk:Chainoffire|talk]]) 04:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)|xemnas=Here's my thoughts on the matter:

1. If they do end up getting deleted, we at least put up a wiki-wide warning, to give people enough time to move/replace the images they want. So that and so it's not like: "Surprise! Happy 2014! Your images were deleted!" I know that the "No fan-made images" policy has been in place for a while now, but there is that little gray area of what a "fan-made" is. For example, the sprite used on this very talk bubble is hosted in Xemnas' gallery. If I were a new user to the wiki, and see the policy we have in place, I would think that this was an official image because:<br>

a. It's hosted on the wiki before I even got here,<br>
b. It's used in a gallery,<br>
c. Lots of other users already use the image,<br>
d. I'm not so familiar with the KH series that I don't notice a tiny red bar at the bottom of the sprite,<br>

thus, it must be an official image!<br>
This warning wouldn't have to be up for very long, 2 weeks minimum. But this way users aren't surprised and angry about the deletion.


2. As KeybladeSpyMaster said above, we replace all of the non-official images with the corresponding official ones. There's only 171-ish images that need to be replaced, so if many hands make light work, this should be done in a jiffy or two. The only real problems I see with this are the fact that we'd be editing other user's personal user pages, and the fact that they'd look different (flipped and with a red bar) which may not be to some user's liking.}}
{{Xion4ever|time05:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)|talktext=Apparently it was misunderstood what I meant by referencing all the deletions. The point of those are to prove that regardless of the royal pain it is, we can do it. We've done it before and we can do it again. Wanting to leave them on here in fear of the amount of work/how lame it would be is an easy/lazy way out. If we could get a group of users to help off-load these images off the Wiki then link them back into the appropriate templates/user pages/articles/etc., these images would be taken care of in no time at all. (<- ''Thought #1'') I think it is safe to say this whole mess is my fault. I've been working on the Articles for Deletion category for a long time- far too long, in fact. Apologizing now wouldn't solve or prove anything.

The point of this forum is, as I understand it, this: '''''Do we want the fan-edited Days images on the Wiki, or offloaded to Photobucket and linked back?''''' There has been a mini discussion about this on the IRC. <small>Log can be found: [http://freetexthost.com/kcjtmcttsn here].</small> Allow me to restate that this is focused solely on the Days images, not other images found in the Category:Articles for Deletion.

Personally, I am against leaving the images on the Wiki. The suggestion to replace them with images that are official would work for any articles (mainspace, that is). That would be a good move. However, for users [userpages, user templates, etc.] it doesn't feel right or fair. To me, that seems like doing it half-way, which is a joke. I'm not going to lie, moving these images is not fun and is probably one of the suckiest form of getting edits. But, it would be worth it. Not only would we finally get the deletion category half cleaned, but we'd finally prove ourselves on following the most recent image policy we agreed upon.

There are several ways we can go about this, but to shorten this already long eye-sore text I will only mention one...''Proposal 1'': (Under the belief that the images should be held off-Wiki, linked back on the Wiki, and then deleted) Get a group of users to take "so-and-so" characters and upload onto a Photobucket account. The Wiki has one, but I can't remember who all had the log-in information. If desired we could perhaps create a separate Photobucket account solely for these images. That way anyone on here could log in, upload the images, and then get off. Once the images were all accounted for, a staff member could go in and change the password so no one could "vandalize" the account. Any images that-for whatever reason- needed to be uploaded later to that account could be done so by a staff member. Each user who decided to help out would be charged with not only uploading the character(s) images to Photobucket, but would also be in charge of: switching any/all articles/userspace/ANYTHING the image links to; posting the now-"linkless"/"ready-to-delete" image names on the [[KHWiki:Pages for Deletion|Deletion]] page. Once the user had completed the above three tasks an admin would re-check to make sure the image has indeed been purged from the Wikispace, and then delete the fan image from existence. Yay great purging.

On a side note: Wonder if we could use the bot to help tackle the more popular images like [[:File:DaysRoxas.png]]?

Chainoffire brings forth the next important point: notification and re-education. ('''Notification''') Once this issue has ultimately been discussed and agreed upon I do see <s>one more</s> a final notification. On here, the Facebook page, Twitter- everywhere. If we're going to do this we need to let everyone know that while the images are set to be deleted, they will be handled regardless- whether the user takes action or not. The notification is mere formality on saying "Move it or lose it, jack." Though people have had plenty of time- years!- to do so, I can agree with this. ('''Re-education''') I see this mainly as a problem for new editors. By removing the problems Chainoffire mentioned above, this will slowly work itself out. If a user should post such an image we can always remind them of the new image policy/this decision. Also, changing the new users guide information and any other help pages would work, too. Another idea is to create a page comprised of these fan-made Days images. Think: [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Talk Template Archive]]. The images could be seen as well as their respective off-Wiki links. This way no one has to "search" for the images.}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=06:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)|confused=WHOA! Wait a minute! This whole time, I understood SeanWheeler's post as "What do we do about these Days images that are up for deletion, but at the same time are used for administrative templates?". I mean, if we took down every fan-edited image and replaced it with official images, THAT would be extreme. My argument wasn't for ALL the images from Days, just the ones being used throughout the Wiki, like the one SeanWheeler pointed out that was being used on the template for upcoming games. When I said replace the images with offical ones, I meant THOSE images, not all images. I mean, that's insane (and an eternal work). That's also what I meant by not removing the images. I meant those that, like the logo, admin images, and forum headers, serve a purpose on the wiki (in this case, they form part of wiki templates. 

By all means, upload off-wiki the Days images and link them back here. I'm wiling to help (though I should warn, I don't have constant access to a computer). I'm for what Xion4Ever says here, my proposal is to spare the ones I mentioned, those with a purpose (I hope I don't sound like Xemans, that would be wierd).}}

{{ShardofTruth|time=15:48, 5 January 2014 (UTC)|talk=I think this all started when the number of fan-edited talk sprites that were uploaded here became too damn high. That was when the no fanart rule was created which was the easiest one to enforce. Because some of them are official and others are still widely in use, replacing them takes a lot of time and causes some other problems (for example editing other user's personal space, necroposting in years old forums posts) while on the other hand just deleting them makes our [[:Special:WantedFiles]] even more useless that it is now.<br>
Anyway I have a slightly different opinion on this matter. Basically I think talk sprites are part of the games and therefore can have a place here as long as they are used, be it in the characters gallery, a user's talk template or other places.  They can even be mirrored (because that happens in the games too) and cropped (because we do this here all the time) but shouldn't be duplicates or altered (to show a different expression than the official ones for example), these images should still be uploaded elsewhere.<br>
From my point of view all talk sprites that are official should be renamed to fit our file naming policy and can stay here (like it's done for some [[:Category:Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories Talk Sprites|CoM talk sprites]] already), the rest should be deleted and/or moved elsewhere.<br>
I think the biggest obstacle in solving the issue are the so-called template archives from inactive users, namely Xiggie and Troisnyxetienne, where hundreds of these images are linked, now often even with dead links. I think it would be wise if we comment these pages out, deactivate them so to speak, until their creators become interested in them again, that would reduce the workload massively.}}
{{neumannz|time=00:08, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|text=Shard has a fair point about mirrored sprites, and I would agree to keeping them on-site according to policy, as long as they were official.

Regarding old forums, I would suggest taking the opportunity to move them to the forum archive, [[Forum:The Realm of Sleep|The Realm of Sleep]], while going through them for images, if they're sufficiently outdated or irrelevant.

The reason why we're so strict on fan images, especially the sprites, is because of how the wiki was flooded with them. Obviously we use custom images for certain parts of the wiki, e.g. the logos, staff page images, etc. I don't think we're fundamentally opposed to fan images in general; in fact, if there hadn't been any flooding, we probably wouldn't have made a policy against user images in the first place. (But there was, so now we're here.)

Xion, we can absolutely use the "bot" to help out with this. Let me know if you want to use it, and I'll help you set up for it. Using it should mitigate the issue of the template archives, as well.

I'm all for an official and widely broadcast announcement regarding the images. It is the best way to stave off the inevitable complaints when someone's image disappears.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=03:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|text=I'll tackle these points one-by-one:

1) About "deactivating" Xiggie/TNE's template archives: For Xiggie are you talking about User:Xiggie/TalkTemplate and User:Xiggie/TalkTemplate 2? As for TNE's talk template archive: I'm not familiar with her intentions with that. Before we do anything, I'd rather we get her input. If we decide against that, could we spare the [[User:Troisnyxetienne/Talk Template Archive/Emotion Guide]]? Not only is this a guide on talk bubble creation, but Kate referenced it on the [[Help:Guide For New Members]]. Don't want that part to get lost in the mix. (Scratch this point if using the bot will solve this problem.)

2) On Realm of Sleep Forums: So far the ones "put to sleep" have been from The World that Never was forums. Are you wanting the same for the old Twilight Town forums as well?

3) On using the bot: Heck yeah I'm up for using it. I have no idea how to run it, but I don't have to necessarily be told, either. If only a certain number of users should know, that's cool. I'm not familiar with how the bot works- such as how many tasks it can take at a time, and the like. Our first batch of Days images should be those found in the [[:Category:Articles for Deletion]]. Truth be told, I think that's all of them... Something before using the bot, though: Do the Days images need to be renamed? That's going to be a nightmare, but if you guys say yes, then I'll do my part.

4) Announcement stuff: How long do you think the warning should last? If we can get this decision set in stone we could start a day after we close this forum. Say: If we get done tomorrow, we start the spamming Wednesday. Not gonna lie, I really want to remove this headache. You guys think three days is enough? A week?}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=04:26, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|text=If it is determined to remove the abandoned Emotion Guide, or anything, it could be rebuilt using the current images and we could leave it up to any user to add images with permission. I don't think removing the Talk Templates is a good idea (some of us still use them, especially to use said images that aren't hosted on the wiki). 

As for Forums, I'm not sure keeping Twilight Town forums is a good idea, seeing they are less important, ususally, and are quickly forgotten, unlike those in The World That Never Was or Ansem's Computer, which tend to have information that is usually needed outside the forum. 

Finally (I'm skipping the bot because I don't know anything about it), I think a 1-2 weeks warning is appropriate. If you don't know your image is being removed within 2 weeks' notice, you probably don't use the wiki enough to care. If we want, we could try to hold onto them for some time for the less active, but still somewhat active, users that might still want them, though I don't know where or how long you would want to.

My only argument as far as sparing images is still, as I've said before, just the ones being used on administrative templates; however, replacing those images with official ones (to avoid giving the appearance that we approve unofficial talk sprites) is still open. By this, I mean the images used on templates in [[:Category:Administrative templates]]. 

P.S. In addition, it was mentioned how we could not host the Walkthrough Images off-wiki because we could not use them as links. I'm not sure if you want to look into it, but it must be possible, because I've been able to use my own image, hosted on Google, to replace the wiki logo on my custom CSS. Of course, that's if you want to remove those images, too.}}
{{neumannz|time=06:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|bdave=The forum thing should be dealt with in a separate forum, but I think we should consider archiving them in the Realm of Sleep (If it's possible to separate them from the archived TTL forums, that'd be ideal), with the alternatives being to lock them or delete them outright. (Again, this should be discussed in a different forum.)

If we can agree to keep cropped Days talk sprites along with the unaltered sprites, there will be no issue with using them in templates. If we do <u>NOT</u> consider them equal, then while we <u>could</u> keep and use them as "wiki images", to avoid users complaining we might want to consider different, non-sprite images, either official or custom. (Walkthrough-space images would most likely fall under "wiki images".)

1-2 weeks notice seems fine to me.
}}

I don't have a talk bubble, but I still think those images are pretty official. Just flipped automatically makes it fanon? You can see those sprites when holding the DS in front of a mirror, can't you? These are close enough. And if we link almost every image back to photobucket, what's the point of having a filespace anymore? These are sprites used on administrative templates, that are used on the mainspace. I think they should be kept. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Xion4ever|time=21:00, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|text=''EDIT CONFLICT'' Understood. Forum discussion on a separate forum. Regardless of what happens, TNE's emotion guide won't be deleted. If need be we'll just rename it to a different part of TNE's userspace. As for deleting the TalkTemplateArchive, we first have to decide on whether we're keeping the Days images or not- as Neumannz said. I don't see the point in sparing half of the images just because we're using them in templates. To me, this seems like an "all-or-nothing" project. Say we did do that, some users might see the few remaining Days images and go: "Those are still here! Why did you get rid of the others? They're the same thing." We can say some reasons why, but it wouldn't do us any good. The images are the same. Just because they aren't used in a template doesn't mean they're any less of worth than the others. 

After reading Shard's comment I've realized our definitions of "altered" are different. He follows a more "loose"/liberal definition while mine is a bit more strict- which isn't a bad thing to have: different opinions. Anyways, if we define altered as showing a different expression than the official images- say someone made Roxas smile bigger or something- or blatant alterations [add on of sparkles/whatever], then there's no reason the Days images should be moved off Wiki. It's kind of like: [[:File:Organization XIII KHD.png|this image]]. I don't remember ever seeing this officially released. Same thing for the Lost Boys and Seven Dwarfs, I thought those images were originally released in two complete sets, not individual crops of each character. That said, I'm seeing this in a new light now. If we use the altered definition mentioned above/Shard's, then I'm cool with leaving the images on the Wiki. That would take care of the Days images in the deletion category.

If we do keep them, though, what would we do with the images found [[:Category:Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days Sprites|here?]] They are the original in-game images with red banner. The reason I bring this up is how not all images use them (meaning some are in the UnusedFiles page). Most character galleries use the Days images flipped and without the banner. We could: mix the two together; delete the ones with the red banner; or simply have them on file [do nothing].}}

I think we should just do nothing about them. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 21:34, 7 January 2014 (UTC)|default=This is what I think on the matter: Shard's loose definition of an "altered" image works fine in most cases however, since we '''already''' have the completely unaltered sprites, the official should trump the sub-official. I propose that for Galleries, we use the complete-official ones since that's most fitting for the main space. With the reversed sprites, We may still need to do the photobucket thing since most of them aren't just reversed. Remember that editors added in their own pixels to replace what was hidden behind the red bar. Any sprites like that is fanart in my opinion.}}

And there are some that didn't have anything added where the red bar is. And we only got a handful of those official ones. Most of the others were flipped. The flipped ones outnumber the accurate ones. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

{{neumannz|time=01:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)|text=It seems a large part of this discussion centers around whether flipping/cropping is enough to make the sprite unofficial, so I suggest we just vote on it.

If we do call them unofficial, then I suggest we stick to our policy and host them offsite (as opposed to classifying them as "wiki images" and leaving them here). Then we have the choice of continuing to use them in templates by linking to photobucket or whatever, but I would like to suggest we use something other than sprites for a change in our templates, even if they are custom "wiki images".

Unfortunately, we do not have the unaltered sprites for most of the emotions. If we can get them, then I'm not really bothered with deleting the altered ones. Until then, however, I think we should hold onto them, whether we vote them unofficial or not.}}

I think considering flipped ones as fanart would be very nitpicky. If we go even more extreme and consider cropped images as fanart, we would end up with the full screenshot of a cutscene with less focus on the sprite. One step further would be a photograph of a DS with a blurry picture. What I consider fanart is if you add something to it like changing Roxas' hair blue, giving Sora sunglasses or changing a frown into a smile. Those kinds of edits would be fanart. But flipping a sprite, you'd get the same result as playing in front of the mirror. If flipped images are fanart, wouldn't that mean your reflection is fan art? Is the mirror a fan artist? I would think of an artist as a human and not an inanimate object! [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=05:30, 9 January 2014 (UTC)|text=I agree with SeanWheeler. Cropped or flipped sprites I don't think are truly fanart. Edits on the sprites such as changing emotions are. I vote for keeping the former on site.

On the other hand, we should replace the images on the Admin. Templates with official sprites. Surly we can find official sprites of people yelling or whatever, and find the appropriate line from the series to fit the purpose of the template (seriously, seven games, we should be fine).}}

{{Chainoffire|time=[[User:Chainoffire|Chainoffire]] ([[User talk:Chainoffire|talk]]) 06:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)|xemnas=I would like to point out there there is in fact more official sprites than what we have on the wiki. they can be found [http://www.spriters-resource.com/ds/kh358/sheet/24287/ here].}}

You're suggesting we'd steal from another site? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
:Chain never said anything about using without permission. He just noted that that site has more than what we have already. And as you can see through the fine print at the bottom, "No need for credit, but don't claim as your own" So as long as we don't say "We ripped these ourselves", we're not violating Barubary's TOU. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 21:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay, we can take them all then! Hehehe... [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 01:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Are we going to get on with this discussion? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

{{neumannz|time=23:38, 18 April 2014 (UTC)|notice=Alright, let's get this settled.
*Is there any objection to keeping talk sprites that have been flipped and had the red banner cropped on the wiki?
*Is there any objection to filling out our talk sprite collection from Spriter's Resource (giving credit, obviously)?
}}
{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 23:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)|default=My opinion: I'm fine with both.}}
:I have no problem with either, HOWEVER, I do believe we need to choose between either having the flipped/no red banner ones, or the ones with the red banners from the original game. Or we could have both, one used in galleries (w/ red banner) and the other being used for talk sprites (w/o red banner)... or was there some discussion before that went into this? {{User:Erry/Sig}} 17:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
{{neumannz|time=01:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)|text=I would be fine with the third option, using the sprites-with-banner in galleries and using the others for sprites. I don't think we'd be obligated to put the slightly edited sprites in the galleries, since we'd have the originals there.}}