Editing Forum:Staff Reorganization and the Goblet of...wait

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}
<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
==Poll==
DO NOT EDIT THIS AREA
<poll>
How should elections go?
Elect 7 new admins and 1 new mod
Elect 6 new admins and 2 new mod
Elect 5 new admins and 3 new mod
Elect 4 new admins and 4 new mod
Promote current active mods (3), and elect 5 new mods on fast-learning to admin
Promote current active mods (3), 1 new mod, and fill in gaps in later elections
</poll>

==Discussion 1==
{{KrytenKoro|As most of you probably know, eight of our admins are inactive, as well as one of our mods.

#DTN, Neumannz, TNE, Azul81677, and I thought it might be a good idea to ask the inactive/retired staff if they would like to be moved off of the active staff list, possibly creating openings for new admins. So far, we have been able to contact everyone but Riku5464 and Urutapu. Azul81677 has fully retired, so we have at least one opening as of now. This does not mean that he or any other retired editors will lose their powers - merely that they will no longer be listed as active staff.
#However, we don't want to start elections until we know exactly what the situation is - as of now, the plan is still to hold elections in August in preparation for BBS. If we end up having enough space for new admins, we'll probably start some elections then, and try to maintain a set base of active admins.
#We also thought it would be a good idea to have BebopKate promoted to Bureaucrat, since all of our current Bureaucrat's aren't invested in the community, and are difficult to contact. We need your approval on this, though.
#Finally, KKD and LegoAlchemist had suggested merit badges, of a sort, and Auror, SilverCrono, and TheInexistent had been discussing a Featured User setup. I think that it might be a good idea to treat this as a sort of "Employee of the Month", where the community nominates the most respected editors, and the staff will go through their edits and make a decision. To prevent favoritism or drudgery, staff would not be eligible, and we probably wouldn't do repeats.}}
{{LA|Vtext=TO reply directly,
#Yeah, I agree. I've thought about this for a while now myself.
#Sounds good.
#You have my approval ^_^
#Oh, okay. To be honest, I don't really care much for the merit badge idea anymore, but my former points on how it could motivate still stand ^_^ As for the featured user set up, I like it ^_^}}
{{LapisScarab|time='''<span style="font-family:papyrus">[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:midnightblue;">Lapis</span>]]<span style="color:black;">Scarab</span></span>'''[[File:Chrono Twister.png|30px]] 07:31, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=To shamelessly immitate LegoAlchemist,
#I agree, it's been a long time coming methinks.
#Sounds good.
#Absolutely.
#Sounds good, nice way to make everyone want to contribute and feel good for doing so.}}
{{SC|time=07:38, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=Okay, reply.
#Yeah, inactive staff just take up space.
#Active admins are good admins. I guess adding mods > admins and users > mods would work.
#She deserves it.
#FU sounds good, but.. I didn't discuss it. Just said I would support it if it happened.}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=08:36, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|lion=Alright, my brief two cents:
#I think removing the inactive staff from the Organization mugshot table would be a good idea, but perhaps we should mention them somewhere on the page?
#Sounds good, we're going to get a lot of new BBS information along with a few vandals which will need to be dealt with.
#Great idea, she'd make a wonderful Bureaucrat.
#I like this idea. =D}}
{{LevL|time=08:40, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=My reply:
#Sounds like a good idea.
#I agree.
#You have my approval.
#That might encourage users to make better contributions, so I like the idea.}}

{{Uxie|time=09:00, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm an admin of the [http://spyro.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Spyro wiki], and many of our admins are retired. So, I guess you guys have a good idea after all. As they say: A good idea is a good idea. That's a good way to help further promote this wiki, like I am with the Spyro wiki.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Re:Dan - Yes, the current plan is to have a list of "retired staff".}}
{{Yuanchosaan|time=10:03, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
|text=Supporting all the staff suggestions.

We tried a similar idea to Featured User over on the FF wiki once, but it fizzled out due to lack of interest. To prevent that and highlight the user's achievements, it would be good to write a short piece for each user in the Trinity Report.}}
{{MM841|10:46, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|Firstly, I have not read Staff Reorganization and the Prisoner of... wait, what's going on? Now, down to business.<br>
#Yeah, the retired staff members should be moved to the inactive list, since, well, their inactive.
#yes, staff elections should not occur until August.
#Hell yes. She deserves it. I always thought we needed a super admin active in the regular community.
#I like this. It's will hopefully be a good motivator to editors.
}}
{{Bluer|12:39, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|
#Reorganization does seem prudent, kupo
#I'm tired of another staff election, kupo... the change seem to happen thrice every year. Is the wiki unstable, kupo?
#She deserves it, I agree, kupo, but the only difference between bureaucrats and sysops are the ability to create sysops. Is that necessary, kupo, considering I've done my responsibility every staff election?
#Cute. Reminds me of barnstars,}}
{{KrytenKoro|In regards to needing the admins to be more active, we have gigantic backlogs of misnamed images, articles for deletion, etc. I've personally had to take a very hardline stance on deletion in order to keep the deletion list from getting too gigantic, and if we had more admins to be monitoring these and handling them, we'd be able to cover them more on the discussion page. There's also the misnamed images, which you need admin privileges to move without leaving a redirect. As it is, I've spent 90% of my summer doing admin tasks and patrolling recent changes, and that simply isn't fair to me.

As for BebopKate, I definitely feel that even though this plan should make admin elections (and thus the need for bureaucrats) much less frequent, the bureaucrat in charge of the wiki should be someone who is deeply involved in it. Right now, all of the staff with bureaucrat powers are either retired, or only edit when absolutely necessary.}}
{{Bluer|13:37, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|
So the reason for a sysop election is a backlog of maintenance, kupo? The recently chosen administrators, kupo, couldn't we summon the current sysops to take a look at it; contacting them on their discussion page and make them be aware of the backlog, kupo. That should have been the way to tackle the issue, kupo, instead of proposing an admin election every three months.

I've been thinking about it, kupo, and I do believe we could increase the capability of our moderators in the case of renaming files without redirects, kupo. If the community is interested we can get our moderators with a bit more capability than just rollbacking, kupo. FFWiki has this for their moderators, I think this should be a good way to tackle that issue, kupo.

As for being deeply involved, kupo, please be reminded that BebopKate, all other users and even myself have a real life outside of this wiki, kupo. Taking the wiki too seriously is one of the common mistakes a wiki user does, kupo, and I've seen instances where this happens... too commonly,}}
{{KrytenKoro|That's the problem, though - the current admins are already very busy as it is, with their current projects and with real life, and there remains a huge backlog.

As for being involved - the other bureaucrats haven't edited in several years, and Bluerfn, you haven't performed a mainspace edit since the first of March. Again, I feel that we should have at least one bureaucrat who is active on the wiki itself (But that's my personal reason for supporting Bebop's promotion).}}
{{Bluer|14:36, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|Thank you for the reminder, kupo. Personally I have good faith that the users are doing a good job in the mainspace, which is why I abstained. Of course, if you want my presence in the mainspace known, it can be arranged, kupo.

As for the backlog issue, kupo, I am seriously contemplating additional rights, usually held by administrators, to be granted to our moderators, kupo. As with the FFWiki, this entails:
* Ability to rollback to previous edits; already applied.
* Ability to move pages and suppress redirects - move a page without leaving a redirect.
* Ability to move pages without a rate limit; i.e, move an unlimited amount of pages within any time interval
* Ability to move files and suppress redirects - renaming a file without leaving a redirect.

Should I ask Wikia to grant these additional capabilities to our moderators, kupo? Comments, especially by non-staff, is greatly appreciated,}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=14:43, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|lion=I strongly support the addition of these rights, as there are hundreds of files, notably TCG card images that '''need''' moving as soon as possible. Kryten's done a great job with the Cardspace, and I reckon we could develop it further if he had a few extra hands to help.}}
{{KrytenKoro|The rights you're listing (along with the also-needed deletion) are the main tools of the admin, though. The other tools, such as blocking, are only infrequently needed. As long as we all agree that we need more editors with these powers, I think the simplest and best solution is to just elect more admins.}}
{{R&D|time=16:53, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|yes=I agree with everything KK proposed and with Bluer ideas of more rights for mods.}}
{{DTN|time=17:30, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=I oppose the suggestion of granting these rights to moderators. KrytenKoro states my main point in saying that these are the main tools of an administrator. If we give these abilities to moderators, there will hardly be any difference between admins and moderators, just mainly banning and deleting. If we make the abilities of our entire staff more homogeneous, the position of the administrator is weakened, and the users who are already complaining that the staff "rules the wiki" shall have one more thing to complain about, since since we are giving what used to be just "glorified editors" many extra administrative functions. On the contrary, I fully support the addition of several new admins.}}
{{Bluer|18:42, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|
Let me point out some corrections, kupo, so that you might want to reflect on them.

A sysop isn't above any other regular user, kupo. Sure they have these neat tools, but that's not a sign of position. In fact, it's a sign of trust, kupo. The tools to move, protect and delete pages are there to aid users - for example, in an event of a mistaken upload or mistaken naming. They are used solely to help users collaborate in writing good articles, kupo. And a sysop should all in all assist other users and editors when they write these articles, kupo. If they see a mistake done by a user, they must act in good faith, help fix the mistake and teach them the working methods of wikiediting, kupo; not a warning, a block or a ban. If the latter happens, it's no wonder that the only edits are done by sysops. In short, the perception that those with sysop tools are of a higher position than normal users shouldn't have occurred, kupo. Terms such as "ruling the wiki" and "glorified editor" shouldn't have been raised if a sysop acted in good faith in the first place, kupo. Electing more admins, thus far, isn't a viable solution, kupo. What should be done is to revise the roster of the current administration. I've discussed with the more experienced and long-serving editors on this, and we will hopefully reach a consensus in the matter,}}
{{KrytenKoro|How about this then?

So far, there has been total, unanimous support (minus yourself) for electing more admins, and promoting BK to bureaucrat. It is clearly the community's consensus - can we now go ahead with it?}}
{{Bluer|05:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)|Please be patient, kupo, the discussion is only a day old, and only a select few from the community has given their opinions, kupo. If the community is aware of this and as engaged as I'm told, we'll have enough input for a consensus,}}
{{BebopKate|time=20:22, July 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=Whew.  I'm back, I'm back.  Narnia is a strange and odd world...wait, wrong book. -_-  Well, let's hit these point by point...

1. I've kind of wondered why we hadn't moved the inactive admins for ages now, but I am not one to question these things, as it doesn't seem to be a life-threatening issue.

2. More admins...I think that would be fine, but I want to make a suggestion: staff training.  All staff members, old and new, including myself.  Hear me out for a second.

Speaking from some personal experience, and some that's been relayed to me from others: when you become a staff member on a wiki, it can get very overwhelming very quickly.  So many new functions to use, so many people <s>bugging you with problems</s> seeking your assistance, you've done this thing someone asked for but now it's made three people mad at you, there's an edit war here and a talk page squabble there, and...AAAAA!  I confess there are tools I'm still not sure about, and there have been situations where there could have been better responses.  I just think it would be nice to help all of us to figure out what's the small stuff (well, speaking relatively), what to really worry about, and how to handle someone who's editing poorly versus an honest-to-diety-of-your-choice troll.  It's just an idea; it would probably be a wiki sub-page as I can't see us finding time to be in IRC at once, but I think it would help all of us get a handle on our roles and where we need help covering our weaknesses.

Let's see...where was I?  Ah...

3. I'm very flattered, honestly.  I don't think there's much more to it than I'm already doing, as Bluer pointed out, but then again it might be nice for Bluer not to have us bug him every six months or so with staff requests. ^_^

4. I'm not sure about the Featured User, mostly because it seems very hard for all but the largest wikis to carry off.  We have a sizable group of editors here, but nowhere near the numbers of, say, Memory Alpha or Uncycopedia.  But I do like the merit badge ideas.  It would be a nice motivator, especially considering we already collect userboxes like magpies collect shiny stuff... ^_-}}
{{LA|Vtext=Hey there, Kate.

Regarding the inactive ops, why not, instead of de-opping them, just have a new section on the Staff page reserved for them? They could be under "Inactive ops" (:P) The imaes used for their boxes could be sleeping charcters from the awakening. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

I agree with the Featured User thing. First of all, who's to decide this? We can't have a community vote, because that could hurt feelings. Maybe a "council of users", but this could lead to arguments. Just putting that out there. As for staff trainging, another good idea.}}
{{MM841|10:22, July 25, 2010 (UTC)|Did anybody ever say the inactive staff would eb de-opped? Also, on the subject of featured users and merit badges, I thought the staff would decide, meaning we can't be nominated for such an honour.}}
{{KrytenKoro|There will be no de-opping. All we would be doing is moving them off the list on the Staff page, so that people looking for someone to ask will not be confused. Also, so that we know how many spaces we can fill.

Staff training is an awesome idea.

The featured user would probably be decided the same way we do staff elections - community selects those who they think are the most helpful, and the staff go through all of their edits.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Well, I am kinda going off the course this conversation has taken, but, for the retired members, could we do sort of a "Proof of Existence" type image?  I would be willing to make it, but I'm not exactly sure how...  As for the featured user, I did make this template as an alternate option, (@LA) so as not to have fighting, although I nominated for deletion a few weeks ago.'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|So, it's been a full week. Can we now promote BK?}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''I think so, Bluer?'''}}
== Post-Giving BebopKate Bureaucracy==
{{KrytenKoro|Woo! Okay, that's one part of this down.

Currently, HeckoX, Hexed, and Azul have retired. Ultima and Bluerfn have said they definitely don't want to retire. I still haven't gotten any word back from XienZo, Riku, Scottch, NeloAngelo, or Urutapu. If anyone knows of any reliable way to contact them, please do.}}
{{EO|time=15:50, July 30, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I unfortunately don't know a way to contact them. But I am curious about something... now that BebopKate has been premototed, are we to discuss and later decide upon the rest of this forum's topics? I haven't been paying attention to this Forum's recent changes, but I believe we decided to do staff re-elections to replace those of us who are inactive as of now in August?}}
{{KrytenKoro|If we get enough space. Right now, we only have three confirmed openings, so we'd probably move the current mods up and elect some more.}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''If we were to continue with said plan of action, the logical choice for replacements would start by TNE becoming an admin and ENX replacing her as a mod.'''}}
{{NinjaSheik|text=I agree.}}
{{EO|time=23:33, July 30, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't feel that recently elected staff such as Xion4ever and Neumannz should be given adminship rights right away. The last election was only a few months ago, and they are not as active as they could be. I fully agree with TNE becoming an admin, however.}}
{{Maggosh|detroit=I will have to agree with The Inexistent. TNE deserves adminship, and ENX at least should be a mod.}}
{{DTN|time=00:57, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=<s>BAND,</s> HALT! <s>(ONE, TWO.)</s>

Okay, before we start saying "Make User X a mod and not User Y," I want to say that we shouldn't open slots for new mods/admins if we get no reply, because I don't want to assume their answer to be "no". Just like we do on this wiki by assuming good faith, and in our IRC policy, I want to give XienZo, Riku, Scottch, NeloAngelo, and Urutapu the benefit of the doubt and allow them to keep their current status. It is very important to me that we do not assume inactivity of an admin/mod simply because they have not edited in a long time or have not replied to the e-mail. Those users did an incredible amount of work to achieve their current status, the least we can do is continue to recognize them for it on the staff page in full.

And now, I would like to make a special request that I have spoken to KrytenKoro about, and that is promoting one user directly from an average user up to a sysop. This user has done work for the wiki we never thought possible, and has given a tremendous amount of time, effort, and technology into getting our wiki what we need quickly and perfectly. Even more amazing, this user has never complained '''''once'''''. I will tell you right now, a user that constantly complains is like a rock in my shoe, and I would love to <s>render you incapable of performing certain bodily functions</s> give you a good, long, non-violent talking-to. Yeah. Anyway, this user also could greatly use the sysop tool of deleting and moving images accordingly, since he specializes in the image field. The user I am speaking of is ShardofTruth, and I can speak for both myself and KrytenKoro that he deserves a position as a sysop. Also, on the note of not promoting Xion4ever, we promoted HeartOfOblivion while he was inactive, how was that any different? While Xion4ever's situation is making contributing difficult for her right now, I would not oppose to giving out dear mod sysop rights. Other than that, the promotion of Troinsyxetienne and Neumannz both seem... fine, to me. ''Just'' fine.

As for the mods who replace them, '''''remember this''''': a mod should be an example of the "ideal editor", or as close to one as they can get. Basically, I don't want them to complain, cause/fuss about drama, be a huge WikiPrincess on the user talk pages, and they should be currently active in contributing to the growth of the wiki. No warnings is something I also would like to see in a new mod. Remember, a mod is nothing more than a "glorified editor"; their reward is almost nothing (rollback), it's just like a medal of honor saying, "You're a helpful contributor, have a mention on the staff page!", pretty much. Plus, after these many promotions, the graduation of a moderator to a sysop after this is going to be, well, very unlikely and would require several administrators to have to drop off of the face of the wiki. You're essentially going to be selecting very long-term mods.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=01:15, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|inverse=Indeed, Shard's done spectacular job and put in a tremendous amount of effort. And considering that the bulk of his contributions have involved images, that would put him in a good position to help with the issues with images and articles for deletion Kryten mentioned further up on the forum. Plus, he doesn't usually undo edits, so giving him just rollback would barely change anything. If we make an exception for anybody, it should be him.}}
{{DTN|time=01:19, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=To continue on the very last thing LapisScarab says, ShardofTruth is a very special case, with him being such a marvelous, even ideal contributor to this wiki. I do not wish to make the exception of users becoming mods before becoming sysops for any user but ShardofTruth. I personally that any other user should go through the usual process of moderators.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''I completely agree.  Shard has done more for this wiki's images than any other user.  If the images need sorting out, he would be the first one to call.'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|DTN: Riku made 26 edits, and XienZo made 806. NeloAngelo's page declares her retired. Again, I must stress, ''we are not de-opping anyone'', or even fully removing them from the page - we are simply removing them from the list of active staff. If they aren't even active enough to notice they have a message, then they simply aren't active. Any retired staff will still appear on the page, they just wnat be in the Organization mural.}}
{{DTN|time=03:21, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, I see your point. <!--I am also fairly certain that I am a bit confused on the plan, since it originated in a PM a while ago. Sorry!--> If that would be the final case, that would create six open spots for administrators. However, I certainly would not want to create six new administrators. Like I said previously, I only approve of a user --> sysop promotion for ShardofTruth, and we only have three mods that we could promote, since you would be deeming Urutapu inactive. I would prefer, then, that we just reduce the number of admins in that Organization XIII mural, or change the mural's theme to something that we can fix to any number of admins. We certainly do not want to overwhelm users with the huge change to an admin from just a regular user, nor do we want to overwhelm the staff as a whole with new, completely inexperienced users, when it comes to being on the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki's staff.}}
{{EO|time=11:59, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I really don't understand the Wiki community sometimes. They were perfectly content with KrytenKoro skipping modship and going straight into adminship, so why be hammering down any other user's chances just becuase they don't favor them? ShardofTruth should at least fall into the boat of being elected as moderator. He/She should not deserve to skip, as that is not fair to any of the rest of us. ShardofTruth may be useful to the Wiki in terms of gathering much-needed, HQ images, which he/she has done a marvelous job with, but he/she has not proven themselves able to handle any other sort of editing. And in terms of most of us being "inexperienced users", keep in mind that other Wikis exist. We are just as experienced with being staff members of those Wikis, so some of us know how it works.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=12:10, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=Keep in mind, I'm not necessarily saying we ''should'' make an exception. I'm just saying that ShardofTruth would help the wiki far better with an admin's abilities than a mod's. Making him a mod would be essentially meaningless, since vitrually none of his edits would need him to ever use rollback.}}
{{EO|time=12:23, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=You could apply that excuse to anyone. Why make an exception for one who only contributes by adding images when others such as NinjaSheik have twice as many edits, at least, and have proven themselves useful in many fields of the Wiki?}}
{{LevL|time=12:29, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|text=I agree with ENX. We should not make exceptions. I think we should just let the community decide if a user becomes moderator first, or that he/she can become an admin straight away.}}
{{KrytenKoro|What about promoting the three active mods, but temporarily expand the mods to seven - that way, three of them can fill the empty spots later, once they get used to being a mod. Something along these lines.

I really do have to agree that, for SoT, giving him adminship isn't as much a thing of prestige - it is literally a toolbox that he badly needs to keep doing the excellent work he's been doing.}}
{{TNE|time=14:06, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=I must agree with ENX and LevL. ShardofTruth has been putting up images here and there, and really good ones at that, no doubt. But ultimately, everyone has to have a say.

I also demand that the users' wishes be completely and wholly respected this time.

The previous time (and I am mentioning this from the point of view of several users, not just one), someone was mistaken for having a wiki-break (or blissfully mistaken, I don't know...), and despite him getting the second highest number of nominations/votes he was overlooked. And someone else had to rub salt into the wound. If it's not enough, I've also been obtaining complaints from the users proper.

We nominate mods and admins simply because we know their capabilities. We know how they handle the policies, and what needs to be changed and not. In that case, I'm not doubting the ability of the people who have been elected. No. But the people who should've been elected in the first place should've been given due consideration.

Furthermore, I am now starting to believe (firmly, in fact) that the whole idea of not having dissent among Staff is just not right. There should be a certain degree of dissent among the staff. It serves as check and balance. It's like a Parliament having the ruling party and the opposition. Whilst I don't doubt that the Staff are all good editors, we need some people - at least two or three - to perform some sort of "judicial review", if you get what I mean. There are quite a number of regulars here whom I can point out who know the rules offhand, seek to apply them and deserve becoming admins straightaway, if not mods.

This having been said, I'm not seeking for "staff unity", but rather, "staff transparency".

If and when nominations are open, may the community decide.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I'm honestly not averse to fast-tracking people to adminship. There's not really much precedence for going one step at a time - only five of the admins we've had went through it, while about seven were fast-tracked.

BK was right about the training seminar thing, if I read her right.

For those of us who were mods first, how much did that actually get you used to being staff, how much did it help you? For me, I had to check the user rights log to even figure out that I was just a mod at one point (it was completely inconsequential to me). As I've said before, modship is basically a mark of prestige, and we have many editors who've already earned that and more, even if we didn't have elections for them.


If we all agree that there MUST be a step-by-step rise (just for clarity's sake, I don't.), then how about we elect enough mods so that we can soon move the excess up to fill the empty admin slots, and return the mods to the four Shittenou afterwards? If we do that, how long must they be mods first?}}
{{MM841|15:28, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|I agree with Kryten on the fact that we should be able to fast-track users to admins. And on the point of if being a mod helped me get used to being a staff member, then no. I'm still completely shocked that I AM A STAFF MEMBER.}}
{{Maggosh|detroit=I will have to disagree with fast-tracking users. I believe they should do time as mods first.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Everyone must remember:  if we do this, it must be done ''slowly''.  If some of us have the idea that suddenly there are going to be several new admins and several new mods, then they are painfully mistaken.  If this is being done, it <s>will</s> should be done slowly and surely.'''}}
{{EO|time=16:08, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I am in full agreement with Kryten and support what TNE said 100%. However, we should only consider fast-tracking users that have proven themselves worthy of these rights, meaning they care about the Wiki and its community, and they want the best for it. They also should be regular editors. We should consider those that show promise but are not as regular the rank of moderator.}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=17:24, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|lion=I disagree with fast-tracking users, even if they have proven to be very helpful and valuable contributors. ShardofTruth has done a wonderful job with images, but I must raise this point: It seems that many of the admins do not wish to elect new staff members due to inexperience, mentioned both in this forum, and [[Forum:Staff Members]], but promoting a user from being a regular contributor to an admin seems to go against the whole "no inexperienced users" point... In the previous Staff-related forum, it seems that people were against fast-tracking users, so why the sudden change in opinion?

Another thing I'd just like to say is that, in my opinion, Moderators are more than just "glorified editors" as some people put it... Being promoted to Moderator is a mark of trust and competence, I realise that Moderators have practically no new extra functions added to their user rights, but they are still considered "Staff", who are normally the first people turn to for help and advice. Before now, I believe that we have had issues about things that only "Staff" were "qualified" to deal with... If this ever happens again, then Moderators would be more than "glorified" editors with a rollback function.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Honestly, we shouldn't have stuff that "only Staff are qualified" to deal with, besides the MediaWiki and Project pages, which are central to the site. I've seen people say "Don't argue with KrytenKoro, he's staff", and I don't like that (It ''should be'' "Don't argue with KrytenKoro, he knows everything", 'cause I'm awesome).

Okay, so we all agree that admins should be experienced, right? Well, how do we define that? Experience with the coding, experience with being asked for help, what? And how much experience as a mod should people have?}}
{{Bluer|20:57, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|I would like to announce that from now on the decision to make a user mod and/or sysop would ultimately be on our hands, kupo. The talk about these user rights have been diverting the main focus of this wiki, so at this point, the so-called "community" can stop bickering about sysop definitions, kupo; BK and I will do that for your sake. Wake up, people, and get back to mainspace editing,}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=21:04, July 31, 2010 (UTC)|talk=Just stopping by to make things more clear about myself and my intentions.<br>
I came to this wiki because I like KH, so much indeed that I'm willing to spend much time on searching, ripping/scanning and cropping images. I do that, because I think images play an important part to descripe a videogame and I'm talented enough to deliver them. I never wrote an article, because English is a foreign language for me and it's not good enough to keep up with the high standards here. Tools to move/delete/etc. images would be indeed useful, but I'm getting along now and that should also be the case in the future (although often someone has to clean up after me). I know that these rights come with a great responsibility and are not awarded lightly because the community has to trust this specific member. I think I'm here because I want to help out and not because I want to interfere with the all concerns of the community. Until today I was never in the IRC and won't probably in the future. That's why I could not be less suited to the task of a mod or an even higher position.<br>
I'm male by the way.;-)}}
{{TNE|time=01:22, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=Should I start a Nominations section, or... ?}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''I don't know.  Will it be for mod, admin, or both?'''}}
{{TNE|time=02:09, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=I believe, for both.}}
{{The Inexistent|text='''Sure, but we should probably ask Kryten first...'''}}
{{TNE|time=02:17, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=Good call.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Oookay, we still need to figure out how many spots of each we are having. Right now, we definitely have three empty admin spots, and if no one can get ahold of the other inactive staff, four more. We also have 1 extra mod spot open if Urutapu isn't here.

Soooo...how about we start a poll, then?}}

Holy monkeyballs! We're starting new nominations?! The worst time for me to go on a wiki-break! If we are going to add new mods and admins, time flies fast and it seems a bit early to introduce more, but congratulations on you bureaucrat rights BebopKate! Wait, so, with this incredibly long forum, It'll be my honor to have my nominations! Let the nominations begin! Derp :[ {{AurorSig}}

We need to decide how we're going to do this first. Be sure to take a look at the poll at the top of the page.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}09:11, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
{{Xion4ever|time=19:19, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=Before I make my statement I want to stress that if I am completely in the wrong, by all means, ignore it. Indeed I have been away from the Wiki and I do not know it's current state...at least not that well. Anywho, do we need a staff election right now? Yes, extra admins to help clean our image categories would be wonderful; however, creating a new election in under a month/two month period? What has happened to the Wiki (editing wise, mind you) that requires a sudden staff election? If this is the staff election for the upcoming release of BBS, I understand. If this is a staff election to make everyone feel better or to cool off some of the problems here, I disapprove. We can find better ways to solve Wiki-problems then hosting a staff election everytime a major problem happens. 

Before I continue, I want to stress that I AM NOT trying to hurt any feelings, or step on any toes. I just want to know if this is needed for the proper reasons. Also, my view is not a stunt to say "I don't want 'so and so' to become admins/mods." I don't want us to have to go through the <s>fun</s> long process of staff elections if it isn't needed. It's like going to a gas station when you have a full gas tank.

Should we continue the plan to have a staff election: Cool. Good luck to all the nominees!

About the idea of upgrading all active mods to admins, specifically myself. I am flattered and honored that DTN would speak on my behalf. Much appreciated. However, if the mods are upgraded, I don't want the "upgrade" to go to waste. I will still be very inactive for a long time, I'm not going to lie. Therefore, my edits will be very low and wouldn't be considered "admin-like." Once I resume full activity I would most certainly use the upgrade (should it happen), but that won't be for a long time. I'd much rather stay a mod and deserve it, than to be an admin and not deserve it. I leave the ultimate decision (for my mod/admin spot, whatever you want to call it), to the staff. Thank you.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=19:26, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=We were going to elect new admins in August anyway, in preperation for BBS. It's one of the first things Kryten mentioned at the top of the page.}}
{{Bluer|14:32, August 5, 2010 (UTC)|What Xion said basically sums up my own feelings about these so-called "staff elections", kupo. I know other Wikia wikis that work to create good articles, without the need to add more <s>staff</s> users with extra editing rights every two months, kupo.

I've discussed this with BK, and in the end we've decided that the community should instead focus on mainspace edits from now on, and let the decision to acknowledge admins and mods the bureaucrat's business,}}

{{KrytenKoro|Okay, the week for the poll is almost up, and I still haven't gotten a reply from the other inactive staff.

*I have not been able to get ahold of Urutapu.
*Xion4ever, are you officially saying you don't want to be promoted in this round?

If so, then it looks like elections will be 2 direct promotions (Neumannz and TNE), two lay>admin, and six lay>mod. (more openings came up, I'm taking the safe road and assuming people want them to go to modships)

I'll start up the nominations forums tomorrow, depending on if this happens to change between now and then, and we can proceed from there.}}
{{KrytenKoro|By the way, this is probably the place to officially note that starting Tuesday, I am going to be inactive/retired. I'll try to come in on the weekends, or if I get time at night, but it's going to be less than 1% of the activity I have now.}}

{{Chitalian8|time=20:33, August 7, 2010 (UTC)|text= NOO!!!! For the little time that I have been here, I think I can speak for most everyone when I say that you will be sorely missed.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Are we talking permanently here, or temporarily?  I think I know the answer, but I can hope...'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|We're talking approximately forty years, here.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''<s>Hmmm...  Well, if I get the time machine working...</s>  Anyway, you will be dearly missed, and I know I've done some stupid things in the past, and I apologize (and for bugging you with too many messages).'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, I've started the election thing [[Forum:Staff Elections 08-10|here]]. I added another space for a lay>mod, since I'm going to be inactive too, and we need TNE and Neummanz promoted to admin.}}
sorry this is late...I'm remaining netural in this election, Kryten. I'm going to be inactive for A VERY long time, as such I don't want to be given admin powers and not use them for an extended period. Beats the purpose of electing staff who will be editing the wiki regularly, right? I'm leaving my "run" in this election up to the staff... if you guys want me to be admin, go for it. at the moment i will not be able to use the "powers," however, i promise to you that i would use them once i resumed full activity. if another admin spot is needed to be filled in order to elect new moderators, then by all means, promote me to an inactive admin. I honestly feel it better if I sit this election out due to my inactivity. again, i do not want to be given "powers" i don't deserve [inactive admin = not a good public view]. I'd much rather stay a moderator and deserve it. thanks. (i apologize for the lack of capitalization..computer problems)--[[User:Xion4ever|<span style="color:black">''Xion''</span>]][[User talk:Xion4ever|<span style="color:darkred">''4''</span>]][[User:Xion4ever/Atelier|<span style="color:maroon">''ever''</span>]] 22:38, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

==Featured Users==
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, here's what I was thinking, please comment on it:

#Every month the wiki nominates a user who they feel has done the best job. This would operate the same way as previous admin elections, except each person would get one vote (not sure if staff can vote here) Comments if you want them.
#At the beginning of the month (or possibly the last week), the staff would go through the top 2-3 nominees edits, and assess which one did the best work.
##I've noticed in the past that in similar featured discussions, the most passionate staffer usually ends up making the decision. It might be a good idea to do simple votes at this level, since the staffers can be expected to not be doing a popularity vote.
#The winner gets displayed on the front page, along with featured media, article, and gets a badge on their userpage. As an added bonus, it might be nice for someone to make an official artwork/sprite/whatever of the featured user.
##We might need to discuss what happens if a featured user ends up elected to a staff position. Do they keep their userpage badge?
}}
{{Auror Andrachome|text=I like the plan, with a few tweeks and steaks it could be great!}}
{{LapisScarab|time=20:28, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|text=I think users should keep the badge even if they're made staff members. It wouldn't be fair to remove the recognition. I get that it's kind of unfair to the current staff, who I suppose are ineligible to begin with, but that's purely because the award came about after they became staff. Plus, the user in question wouldn't be able to win again after he/she becomes a staff member.}}
{{SilverCrono|text=Yeah, Kryten, that sounds good.}}
{{Maggosh|detroit=Novel idea, Kryten. I approve.}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=20:42, August 3, 2010 (UTC)|lion=This idea is sounding good, and I agree with Lapis; Users elected to a staff position should be allowed to keep their badges. Maybe a time / date stamp could be incorporated into the badge to show that it was given to them before they were staff-ed?}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, timestamp....is there some way to present an image so that you can post text over it? Or would we just modify the badge every month?

Also, do we want the badges to be themed (Beast's Castle emblem for February, Halloween Town emblem for October), or should they just be something like the max-rank Gummi Badge, modified for the date? Personally, I think the latter would work best, but the first is still doable.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I started the page [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki:Votes for Featured Users|here]]. The rules might change depending on what we end up deciding, but I think we're close enough now to go ahead for this month.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Hey, Kryten, when the user gets on the front page, is there going to be, say, a little description about them, why they were chosen, or maybe an edit count?  'Cause just throwing a name up in a box seems a bit bland.'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|I guess we could do a little summary of the edits they did that month, but there's not much to say. What about a fake little promotional story, along the same lines as a chuck norris thing?

The edit count would be cool, yeah.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Yes, I can see it now:  ''ShardofTruth can make an image move locations by looking at it.'' <small>  Wait, he probably can do that... </small>'''}}
{{Bluer|14:38, August 5, 2010 (UTC)|Alternatively, we could give Wikia's "Achievements" feature a try. Read about it here:
 
[http://help.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Achievements Wikia Achievements Help page]

Basically, the "Achievements" use a user edit count to gauge them,}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''I always wondered why some wikis had auto badges like that.  I was trying to find the code for this wiki, as we were discussing the mereit badges thing.  </fail>'''}}
{{KrytenKoro|Wouldn't those badges foster the same kind of "edit for editcount's sake" mentality that people were worried about when we first brought this up?}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Yeah, I mentioned that on the blog on community central, that it will probably just generate sub standard edits and vandalism for the sake of badges.  I was thinking we would only do it in, say increments 100 or 500, so someone who really wanted it would have to really work.'''}}
{{LA|Vtext=If you take a gander at my image gallery on Fanon Wiki, I have quite a few full body images I have drawn myself. That, and photoshop, I'd be willing to help out with the images.

EDIT: And Bluer, when "User Badges" were first opened up, I was fully referring to Achievments. So, it's a plan.}}