Editing Forum:SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE: COMMUNITY FUSION

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

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There have been a number of IRC discussions regarding the potential benefits of the re-merging of The Keyhole and KHWiki.net into a single encyclopedia wiki at our location. The Keyhole will be supported by our joint community as a complementary website. This means that, as it was original proposed, there will '''one encyclopedic site''' and '''one fan-news and community site''' run by a '''single community'''. In this way, we hope to solve our mutual problems, which include flagging activity, as well as the way-overplayed and unnecessary drama.

Naturally, the process would be complicated. There are many issues that would need to be carefully addressed, so that's why:


<big><big>'''SPECIAL INTER-WIKI ROUNDTABLE THIS TUESDAY, DECEMBER 27th'''</big></big>


The roundtable is currently set to be held on #KHWiki-noticeboard. Staff from both KHWiki.net and the Keyhole are '''''strongly''''' encouraged to attend, if at all possible. The rest of our users are also welcome to attend, but we ask that if you do so, you conduct yourself appropriately. This is looking to be a long and complex process, so we need to keep serious on it. '''''In particular, there will be a zero-drama policy.''''' If you're attending and you have drama, be sure to dump it before you come by.

The roundtable covered these topics:
*'''The combining of Staffs''': Should be decided on a forum to be created later, due to the need for all staff members to give input on it.
*'''Merging article content''': Best parts of each wiki's articles should be merged; A veritable "second audit" to judge each wiki's content will be necessary.
**'''Includes the use of tabbed subpages''': Will be utilized for quotes, gallery, and boss page (if applicable)
*'''Images and renders''': All of DE's renders will be kept, will substitute an infobox image if and only if the infobox image is of subpar quality. Other places for the images (E.g. boss pages, ability sections) will be discussed further.
*'''Fusing policies''': A generally more relaxed nature, possible tweaking of the MoS. Minor speculation may be allowed in Trivia sections, but will be kept to a minimum. To be discussed further.
*'''Template and other general issues regarding coding''': To be discussed at the follow-up meeting.
**'''Includes Main Page revamp'''
*'''Combining Forums''': The Beach and Seat of War forums will be scratched, possible creation of a "Cornerstone Hill" page - a page giving tips and tricks to certain aspects of the series. To be discussed further.
*'''Walkthrough space''': To be discussed at the follow-up meeting.

Thank you for your patience. We look forward to getting our community back together!

::--{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 06:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

'''[http://pastebin.com/u1uScdjr Meeting log]''' Be wary: There's much unrelated discussion in there. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 14:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

<big>'''Update: The meeting will be held at <big><big>7</big></big> PM EST, on Friday the 23<sup>rd</sup>. Please try to attend if you can.'''</big> {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 00:55, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

<big>'''Update 2: There will be a follow-up meeting held on Tuesday the 27<sup>th</sup>, at <big><big>5</big></big> PM EST. If you missed the first meeting, you can still attend this one. At this follow-up meeting, we will address the topics we didn't cover (Templates and Walkthroughs), as well as wrap up the ones from the first meeting.'''</big> {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 02:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
==Caveat==
{{neumannz|time=20:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|notice=I shouldn't have to say this, but I will, just to be safe.

We are not having any drama on this. If you disagree with this move, do so politely and with persuasive argumentation. If you start flaming us, the Keyhole, or the re-merge, we will have no sympathy, and any hateful comments posted below will be removed.}}

==Discussion==
{{Uxie|time=07:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|zoe=Problem: Wikia will refuse to delete wikis<!--since they are too greedy-->, unless it's a wiki ment to bully other users. So, either way, they'll still be a KHWiki at Wikia, which will get far more views than all of SEIWA's wikis combinded.}}

{{Pea14733|time=14:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|mrhintr= Starting time of the roundtable?}}

{{neumannz|time=14:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|notice=There appear to be steps we can take that Wikia will allow. We don't want or need to delete the Keyhole, and Wikia hasn't completely hogtied us in making changes to it. And the hope is that once the community is back together, the two sites will direct visitors to each other for their respective purposes.

Stay tuned for meeting times.}}

{{Asif|sho=I've wanted this to happen for a long time, but didn't know how to best present the idea. If the Keyhole and this wiki have basically the same purpose, why not have all the people who want to contribute to the mainspace come here and make the Keyhole into a fan-oriented site? I'm all for it.}}

{{LightRoxas|tron=I agree with you As If. Both wikis have their share of dedicated workers and things they do well, why not combine them like intended? Seems like an obvious decision.

And yeha, no need to delete The Keyhole, we can certainly find good uses for it (Theory space, spot to host the Mirage Arena, etc.)}}
{{SilverCrono|time=20:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|text=...wait, is this forum for discussing the merge or the roundtable?}}
{{Chitalian8|time=20:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|nekutalk= Just the Roundtable, I believe.}}
{{SilverCrono|time=20:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|mad=Then...can we make a forum for discussing the merge? I'm sure there is much discussing to be done here.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=20:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|neku= I'm pretty sure that over on this side, we're generally all for the merge (except you, Crono). Maybe we could just stop by the Keyhole's forum and drop an opinion there.}}
..Oh. Alright then >_> --{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 21:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

{{The Inexistent|KRCCFNF='''Well, as some of you may know way back in late September/ early October, DE and I discussed this very same thing.  In response to this, I wrote up a "contract" of sorts, about the combination of the wikis.  So, here it is.  Imagine that the topic had been suggested by me in a forum titled "Remerging with the Keyhole" sometime in late October.  I'm putting this here now because I probably can't make the meeting, so I included everything I could possibly have an opinion on... hopefully.'''

----

Some of you may be reading this forum title and thinking "is this about how our wiki is dead and The_Inexistent wants us to merge back to The Keyhole?".  Well, I am here to inform you that that is not the case.  In fact, it is the situation in reverse.

For those of you who still edit on Wikia, follow the Wikia staff's blog, or have admin rights on a Wikia wiki, you might of heard or were contacted about Wikia's brilliant new idea to steal Facebook's layout.  They are currently in the process of going through all of their wikis and replacing all user talk pages with their new "message wall", an [undisableable] feature that removes all content from talk pages, replacing them with locked archives.

So, long story short, Wikia has succeeded in driving away the community of the Kingdom Hearts Wiki ''twice'', yes, that's right, ''twice''.

I found out about this the first day Wikia unveiled their plans for it.  I was on #wikia-kingdomhearts, and Sove linked it to me.  Dark-EnigmaXIII and I then started to discuss it, and the fate of The Keyhole.  DE and I were essentially on the same page, both finding the same flaws and hating the same errors with Wikia's new "update".  From there, it stemmed into a conversation about DE's thoughts for the future of The Keyhole.  He then mentioned that, if this feature was moderately unbearable/ unfixable, he thought the wikis should remerge.  I, of course, loved this idea; it would combine our nearly inactive wiki and their excessively active wiki; our cold wiki, and their hot wiki.  It would take officiality and combine it with content, that, while not needed, people simply ''enjoy''.

So, in my flurry of excitement, I wrote up a draft of what would happen if the wikis merged, as it, by that point, was a serious possibility.  I showed it to both DE and Sox, and we discussed it and revised it as necessary.  I aimed in the middle; not too conservative, not too liberal.  </inadvertantlystartingpoliticalargument>  In the end, the plan shouldn't be too shocking to either party.  It should make KHWiki a far more enjoyable and active place.  SO...

*Articles
**'''The Best revisions of major pages will be kept, and then revised until they are of a high quality.''
***'''This one should be obvious, but I had to include it to be thorough.  Articles like Sora, Riku, and Master Xehanort will obviously be updated, while pages like Glut and Piglet probably won't need much change.
**''Quote pages will be kept''
***'''KHWikians: have you looked at these?  They show us to things: 1, that their community has brilliant ideas.  2, that they are willing to watch YouTube videos for hours just to get some quotes for their wiki.  Plus, these things are fun to read, and add a great depth of understanding to the character of a character.  These would be a wonderful supplement to any article, and show the devotion of the community.'''
**''The KH3D articles will be kept.''
***'''Yes, ''all of them''.  HOWEVER, they will all be thoroughly cited and speculation free.'''
**''All stubs will be kept.''
***'''Even if there is little to them, content is still content.  And content draws.  The same can be said for redirects and various other pages.'''
*Images
**''Renders will be used as the lead image if the official image is of low quality, does not encapsulate the subject, or is incomplete.''
***'''Guys, a lot of the official images suck.  And a lot of the renders rock, which brings me to my next point, which is really a sub point:'''
****''ALL of DE's renders will be kept, and must be incorporated somewhere in the article, if not as the lead image.''
*****'''Yes.  I mean really, his stuff is great, and is almost, if not on par with Shard's, which, as well all know, is great.'''
**''The galleries need to be kept from the Keyhole.''
***'''Mostly because they are really full, and encompass a lot more than ours do.'''
*User
**''The Lanes Between will be kept''
***'''But only if the owners want to.  I don't know if it should be official, or if it could be a personal arena, or whatever.  All other personal things will also be kept, because they really are a lot of fun, and, as I've seen, don't really distract the dedicated editors from editing (ex. The Puzzling Aqua).  Let it also be noted that I'll discuss FU with Roxas.'''
*Staff
**''Bureaucrats: Kryten, Neumannz, DE, and Sox.''
**''Admins: All current''
**''Mods: All current''
***'''I think the best plan is just to mash them all together.  Some elections might need to happen, but that can be addressed later.'''
*Walkthroughs
**''User generated walkthroughs will be linked to.''
***'''I... I really don't know what to do with these.  I just feel that user walkthroughs need to be shown off.'''
*KHWiki: pages
**''Main page will be redesigned.''
***'''Seeing as we've danced around this for months, we might as well do it now, using elements from both pages.'''
*MediaWiki
**''Sox/ Erry will be in charge of the skins, and they can discuss it.''
***'''Yup.'''}}
{{Chitalian8|time=04:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)|neku= I have two adjustments to suggest to this contract, which otherwise looks fine. First off, regarding the KH3D character articles, both wikis are on different levels with those. For example, compare the two Rhyme articles. While our Origin section for Rhyme is clearly superior, The Keyhole has an Appearance section and a Story section, two things our article lacks. I recommend that instead of just using The Keyhole's, they be worked on from what .net has right now, maybe bringing over certain sections from The Keyhole. Secondly, you neglected to mention what we're gonna do about Templates. Now, I hope it's obvious to everyone that The Keyhole's templates are far superior to ours. I propose that, if Sox allows it, we use some of his coding for revamped and improved templates, e.g. Game templates.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I can agree with most of this, except that fan-made renders will not replace the lead images unless the official image is absolutely abysmal. Otherwise, any fan-made renders we want to have, and we can have as many as desired, should be placed in the article's gallery.

Re:quotes: I absolutely agree with how they set up quotes now, and it would work pretty well to have the quotes be set up to be a subpage, similar to how [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) this article] covers the different incarnations of the character. It would actually work very well for us to more cleanly set up subpages, so that we have "Character", "Gameplay/Boss", "Gallery", and "Quotes" tabs, and it would be better than having huge messages that take up the top of the page. The only thing I would suggest is wording the quote description more as a description of the context, rather than simple "after/during X". Hell, we could go whole-hog and allow humorous descriptions of the quotes, as done [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sound_and_Fury here].

Re:walkthroughs: I still have yet to see a finished user walkthrough for any game, and they uniformly fade away, never to be found. I really, really think we need to use all of the user walkthroughs as material for the main walkthroughs, cannibalizing ''everything''. The Destiny Islands format is nearly done, and the editors at the keyhole should be able to bring a lot of expertise in aesthetics in perfecting it...once that's done, I think we can really make the walkthroughs great. But yeah, we should bring all the existing user walkthroughs over...but again, I think they would be best served by being eventually cannibalized.

Re:staff: As people have said, there's two ways to go about this: replicate the staff on both wikis, or hold new elections. Personally, I feel there are a lot of people who are currently staff who aren't active enough to remain listed as active staff, and there are a lot of wonderful editors who absolutely deserve to be promoted. Furthermore, we have KH3D coming up, and both sets of staff have complained from exhaustion.

I don't think simply replicating the staff is the correct method. Personally, I don't see why people have a problem with their being "too much staff". Other than the bcrat powers, the various powers that staff have are fairly useful tools that I feel we could trust a lot of regular editors to use correctly. On the other hand, there really isn't much use for a ton of bcrats. The only unique powers they have are ones that barely need to be used. So, here's my proposal. We don't need more than three bcrats -- large enough to prevent a fatal situation if the bcrat goes rogue or missing, but small enough to prevent things from getting out of hand. However, for the admin, mod, and artist ranks, I think we can easily work with let's say fifteen admins, ten mods, and ten artists. And I really think that it would be best to put everyone up for new elections, to get an accurate view of the community at large and to get a fresh start, which would help prevent the staff from splitting along party lines. I'd also like to say that, in that situation, I refuse to keep being a bcrat. If we simply merge staff, then I guess I'll have to stay.}}

{{Dark-EnigmaXIII|time=05:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)|text=Well, I discussed most those terms with The_Inexistent back in its time, and I agree to them, and the changes soliciticed by Chitalian and Kryten without further ado.

However, as for the staff situation, I agree on everything but the number of cbrats, as I feel 4 to be a more suitable number. Why four? for a simple and at first stupid reason, maybe: The remerge of the community. While its true that bcrats holds power that are not needed that much, due to the current situation in wich the wiki will be, of both communities merging into one again, 2 bcrats representing the Keyhole community and 2 bcrats representing this community might prevent the creationg of an "inferiority" feeling in the community with less representation in the staff, somenthing that while is not important regarding the actual labors of the staff, in the situation of the remerge of the comunnity, I believe its important to make both of them feel as confortable as possible. So, that's my only suggestion. 4 bcrats, 2 from each community.}}
{{LA|Vtext=<S>Did anyone remember to log the discussion at ''#wikia-kingdomhearts'' on Monday?</s>

Never mind.}}

{{Asif|sho=I completely agree with DE. Just some more things:

# What will we do about the roleplay? I propose linking to it from this wiki, so long as it doesn't lower anyone's activity. But seeing as how it's fanon, there is reason for debate.
# Who will deal with organizing the re-synching of images and articles? What we did last time worked perfectly; we just need someone to make a new page for it.
# I personally do not want the Lanes Between to be brought over, at least without some rule changes. This is because the Mirage Arena and the Lanes Between are EXACTLY the same, but with different characters and themes. Why have two wiki-sponsored arenas that are identical? I propose that the Lanes Between stay at the Keyhole. I mean really, unless we're planning on leaving the Keyhole to the vandals and trolls to destroy, we have to have something there to attract new fans, right? It's already successful at drawing in new users; let the Lanes Between stay where it is so that the Keyhole can have its life somewhat sustained.
# Which brings me to my next question: what will happen to the Keyhole once everything and (possibly) everyone moves here? Will we abandon it? Make it a fansite? Something else entirely?

That's all I have to say for now.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=16:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)|neku= The plan discussed was to make The Keyhole a fan/news site that would link and direct people to this site. However, it all depends on if we can find people to maintain that site or not, or what Wikia will think of this.}}

{{Uxie|time=16:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)|luna=I'd say something about this, but I fear that it will just add too much drama. But I am awhere that the Wikia Staff will not be happy about this change.}}

{{LightRoxas|sad=As far as staff goes, I would say that we should have elections after the merge, like Kryten said, but only for admins and mods. Bcrats could be limited to four total, and include our two and the Keyhole's two.

Of course, Kryten seems adamant that he should not be a bureau, which I think we should honor. For this to be the case, we would need to promote one of our active admins to bureaucrat.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=01:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC)|talk=After reading the horrible long log and the page at The Keyhole, I now feel ready to post some thought of my own:
Firstly I think the merge is a very good idea because the articles are stagnating somewhat on both wikis, although I think it's worse here (with the exception of the walkthrough and KH3D articles). I won't elaborate this point further, I just think the problem's core is the shrunken userbase.<br>
We moved here because we were unhappy with Wikia's choices. I and probably all other moved users thought that the left over Wikia site would become desolate and obsolete in the end. Now that did not happen (causing most of the conflict potential between the wikis as a result) and there are various reasons it did not turn out like this. The most important one is that the users over there wanted to do things differently or didn't agree on how the wiki worked before in the first place. The outcome was a slightly more fandriven but in all other areas competitive wiki updated by excellent and resourceful users of their own.<br>
Now I feel we've come full circle and are at a point again where decisions are made that could produce yet another schism. I feel that we (the khwiki.net) have to become more open and make concessions to unite the userbase. To make a standardized and well written encyclopedia is a noble cause but hardly done alone. To keep the target audience of Kingdom Hearts interested we have to create more space for communication and socializing and relax the no fanwork rules in these areas.<br>
Making the The Keyhole a fanwork, community and news platform ("for real" this time, completly ignoring the [http://kingdomheartsfanon.wikia.com/ Kingdom Hearts Fanon Wiki] again) may not work out this time too.<br><br>
The merging process itself will be a lot of work. Thanks for pointing out the basic working sites The Inexistent, but there are many areas that need to be discussed. The Keyhole goes different ways in the article design by now and it would be a real shame to diminish all their effort and hard work just to get our way across. On the other hand our image renovation and renaming project is 99% complete and that was a real pain to achieve.}}
{{DTN|time=02:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)|text=Firstly I am trying very hard to resist using my Vriska theme. So, so hard. The effort alone is draining.

Wikia never said they will not allow for us to delete pages. They said they will not allow for us to delete '''content'''. That is extremely different. For example, take a look at the ''Final Fantasy'' Wiki. Instead of having individual articles for every weapon and accessory from each game, they use '''List Articles'''. Examples are "List of Weapons in Final Fantasy VI" or "List of Armor in Final Fantasy XII". This retains all content, since weapon and accessory articles are most quantitative data. All of the qualitative abilities and descriptions can easily be described very briefly in one column of such lists. This would allow hundreds of articles to be taken out of KHWikia without losing content itself.

Now, as far as the terms of the merge go, let me say this: this wiki is not "inactive." We are not trying to "absorb" KHWikia at all. Rather, we're going to combine efforts on both URL's while completely reallocating our division of space across the two wikis. Rather than having two wikis with one being more fan-oriented and relaxed than the other, one site will function as an encyclopedia, and one site will function as a fan site.

As far as TI's contract thing goes, I'm all for what he says as far as articles go. Images, however, I have to side with Kryten. While a fan-made render can be aesthetically superior to that which SE produced, fans will recognize an image produced by SE much easier. We also don't want to start producing material as just fan-made that could appear as official. After all, we are a professional wiki covering official topics, and therefore official media should be used whenever possible.

Personal things, like the arena and Puzzling Aqua, I would like to see kept on the fan site, moreso for the latter than the former. I think puzzling games and forum contests really do not belong on this wiki, '''''especially''''' if we are trying to divide up content on professional wiki vs. fan material. I mean, that's just going right against the flow we are trying to create. I suggest we move these contests and such over to KHWikia's forums. The arena is the only thing that is a personal contest for the fans that I would allow to stay here, simply because of its ties to the professional wiki. Even then, however, I would not object to leaving it on KHWikia. However, two arenas on one wiki is just unnecessary, especially for the ''wiki'' side of the collaboration. The same goes for roleplay: absolutely, 100% not on the wiki side. Please leave that completely on the fansite. 

Staff needs its own discussion. I am going to say this as honestly as I possibly can: '''we have too many staff members claiming to be active when in reality they do not even check or appear as "online" hardly ever in the Recent Changes.''' It is unfair to the wiki and more importantly to this community for staff positions to remain unopened because a few individuals do not want to do this place justice by admitting inactivity. Yes, '''inactivity'''. Not retirement, guys! I just went inactive. You can still edit all you like and you don't even get placed with all the retired users. Forreal. It is for this reason that users who work their rumps off on this wiki cannot be promoted, which is quite frankly unfair and unjust. The reason I bring this up is because if we fuse staffs due to size, we are making an extremely skewed judgment, because our staff realistically is not as large as the page says it is. Forreal.

Walkthroughs. I have always supported user-generated walkthroughs, but KHWiki also likes to produce official, wiki-created walkthroughs. I suggest we compromise and just allow both to be made and advertised, but with the wiki-created ones being notated as "officially" by the wiki's community as a whole.

Please clean up the Main Page. I've said this too many times so asdfjkl;. Also, the skin should not be the job of just two users. I think this should be held in a large forum between the two wikis with perhaps a few users orchestrating the coding and creation of it. The ideas and brainstorming should be done by the entire community.

And I didn't even use Homestuck speak once!!!!!!!! ::::)}}
{{KrytenKoro|Personally, my biggest problem with fanart being on the wiki was that it inevitably got uploaded to the main articles. We had fanart constantly being uploaded to [[Paopu Fruit]], [[Xehanort's Keyblade]], and [[Vanitas's Keyblade]]. Even the talkbox images would get uploaded to galleries because people were irresponsible about how they named and categorized them, and people couldn't tell that they were fake. I really, really want to make sure that if we end up allowing fanart, that it has to have a strict naming policy to keep that confusion from ever happening again. On the Digimon Wiki, which I also run, we have a pretty straightfoward rule (though it is made easier by how difficult it is to fake stuff there): any fanart that gets placed in a main article is deleted and banned from being uploaded again. If we decide that fanart will be reallowed...then we're going to have to make a strict rule about the naming. I'm just straight up not willing to put false info in the articles, whether it's the text or the image. Furthermore, most of the fanart that people put on their pages would be easier to just use the direct-linked url from the wikia, instead of reuploading it, like what I do with the cats on my user page.

'''''That being said''''', renders are not fanart. They are fan-posed, certainly, but not fanart. It's totally fine to move over all of DE's stuff, I'm just...not totally comfortable saying "his art has to be on every single page", for various reasons. If the official art is totally unusable, then fan-renders are fine. Otherwise, they should go on a gallery page like all of the other art.

Per the wikia page organization: Yes, they have some pretty good ideas with that that I would love for the merged wiki to integrate, with even more additions. I've said it before, but separating character pages into [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29 tabs] works really damn well. This could either be done as a separate template, or it could be easily integrated into the infobox template I've been working on.}}

{{maggosh|flint=''"Wikia never said they will not allow for us to delete pages. They said they will not allow for us to delete content. That is extremely different. For example, take a look at the Final Fantasy Wiki. Instead of having individual articles for every weapon and accessory from each game, they use List Articles. Examples are "List of Weapons in Final Fantasy VI" or "List of Armor in Final Fantasy XII". This retains all content, since weapon and accessory articles are most quantitative data. All of the qualitative abilities and descriptions can easily be described very briefly in one column of such lists. This would allow hundreds of articles to be taken out of KHWikia without losing content itself."''

This was covered months ago on The Keyhole. Such blind arrogance, like the naked emperor.<!---It's a bloody No More Heroes reference, so think for a second before rampaging, Mister Sir Henry.--->}}

{{ErryTalk|time=09:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)|bayonetta=@maggosh, yes and pages such as [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Firagun_Bangle Firagun Bangle] and [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Firagun_Wrist Firagun Wrist] do not exist on such a page that lists them. They're still separate pages.}}

{{Pea14733|time=16:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)|mrhserious= The roundtable is tomorrow and we still haven't appoint the time yet?}}

{{Asif|shosad=Well, seeing as how I can't make the meeting, make sure you get things done!}}
{{EO|time=02:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)|thinking=I tried stating my opinion on this whole matter a few days ago, only to lose everything I wrote when my computer freaked out... I'm sure most of this has already been touched upon, but I'm going to say it anyways. I ''am'' the Wall-o'-Text King, after all....

I'm rather split in terms of this decision. The idea of remerging makes me ask "What was the point of us separating from Wikia in the first place?" I mean, is it really so hard to use Oasis? Sure it's not Monaco, but...

Truth be told, I never wanted to leave the old KH Wiki. As many of you know, I disagreed with many of this site's stricter policies and actions, and when I heard the old Wiki would become more loosey-goosey (which would have normally affirmed my loyalties on the spot), only one thing brought me here: the few true friends I had made on the old Wiki that were coming to this one. While I probably would have been more willing to contribute on The Keyhole and would have enjoyed doing so more, I still tried to do the best work possible here as an administrator dedicated to doing something he loves.

Before I rant about all the issues called into dispute in this forum, I'd like to say the following: Separating from Wikia in the first place was a bad idea, and it did bad things to both sites, at least in my opinion:

*Time to face facts, everyone! This Wiki is as dead as a doornail. There is hardly any day-to-day activity, even with the new ''KH3D'' info being announced. SEIWA never grew into what we wanted it to, and we never received any traffic like we originally hoped to have. We work here as shadows of our former selves while The Keyhole has flourished, and I personally have started to see our existence here as irrelevant. What's the point of having staff if the staffers never need to do their job? I hate to use a pun in a time like this, but we really have become...''Nobodies''...
*The Keyhole, now that it has been purged of this Wiki's strict policies that made it unpopular while we worked there, has been completely overrun by newbies, speculation, and userspace edits. That is not to say it hasn't retained some of its original qualities thanks to the few regulars and staffers who actually use the site for its intended purpose, but when I see what The Keyhole has become in comparison to when we ran it on the few occasions that I check in there, I start to feel a tad bit ashamed.
*The split from Wikia created an unnecessary hostility between this site and that of our origins. We initially agreed to inter-link so that article traffic and edits would be directed to us. As far as I know, that hasn't happened. We've had a few instances where an image was deleted or a small dispute was started simply because it belonged to the other site and was "stolen"... Really, guys? The Keyhole gets to keep all of this Wiki's original text and basic template coding, and we can't even use a bloody cut-out of an official render without being harped on like we just robbed a bank because they uploaded it first and this Wiki doesn't have such an image yet? That hardly seems fair in my opinion. If we were to merge again, I would want this hostility to stop. Both sites should be able to benefit from the other. If The Keyhole has a cut-out render of the latest Dream Eater, we should be able to use it. If we complete an article first, The Keyhole should be able to use it as a basis for their own. 

Now the fun begins:

*'''Staff''' - Like I said in an earlier forum posted by DTN, a lack of staff activity is '''''NOT''''' the problem on this site! A lack of trusted regulars '''''IS'''''! Thus simply replacing this site's current staff with those form the same crowd of inactive users is completely unnecessary. What we ''need'' is the traffic The Keyhole gets, which I feel would be a plus for merging. I heard from other users we'd be combining the Wiki's two staff lists, though... That doesn't exactly fly with me. If an administrator or moderator of this website has not made a single mainspace contribution in two months or more, by all means, put them on the inactive or retired list. The Keyhole's admins can then fill the open slots (that does not mean the moved staffers cannot come back to the active list if/when they return). For moderators and dealing with elections for new ones, I see no harm in promoting a couple of this Wiki's current list of mods to admin status and then replacing them with a few promoted regulars (again, The Keyhole will make our arsenal of moderators nice and strong). While several administrators and moderators is a good thing in terms of supporting this site in my opinion, there is no possible reason in my mind that I can find for it to be necessary to have more than two b-crats. I personally would like to see one b-crat from each site. Neumannz has done quite well maintaining his activity level and his position, so I'd say leave him on the active list of b-crats. After we choose '''ONE''' b-crat from The Keyhole, he or she can replace Kryten once he has been demoted as requested. Again, our current list of active staff should not be effected unless they truly have become inactive (I, of course, am one to talk >_> Don't worry though; the recent ''KH3D'' info has inspired me to start editing again like I used to).
*'''Walkthroughs''' - We were so hyped about this...and then it died (though it ''has'' made quite a stunning revival in the past week or so). The Keyhole's wonderfully sensitive-to-aesthetics community will be a great asset to us as we make these walkthroughs as visually appealing and factually accurate/useful as possible. I believe I said this already, but I am entirely '''AGAINST''' purging user walkthroughs from this site. Even if we were to use the content contained in them in our official Wiki-walkthroughs, we shouldn't do this without the user's permission (if the user in question cannot be reached, then I guess it's just "tough toenails"). User walkthroughs should then be hosted off-Wiki so at least they're there in their original forms to refer to. I know I swore to finish a ''BBS'' walkhrough, and I worked quite hard on it for a few days or so. The reason I stopped? We made the walkthroughspace, and too much happened too fast. I was up to my eyeballs in new formatting rules, etc., and the levels kept rising and changing until the point to my working on my own walkthrough was completely removed (I still want to help with walkthroughspace; this doesn't mean I can't start working on the ''BBS'' guide again).
*'''The Keyhole-exclusive Material''' - The "Quotes" sub-pages are brilliant, and they FINALLY give us a spot to put those stupid battle quotes (I'd like to ask this, though: Wouldn't such pages violate our copyright policy? Basically copying down the entire script of a game and posting it is the same thing as using an entire piece of music in an article, isn't it?)! In terms of the Mirage Arena vs. Lanes Between and the templates we use that were altered for use on The Keyhole, I feel we should keep the original versions this Wiki is using simply because they were "there first." However, we should re-examine the policies for both arenas, as well as the templates and how they are used, to create something both users from The Keyhole and this Wiki can agree with. In terms of images such as fan-posed renders, we should have them just to have them, but they should '''never''' be used in an article unless the main image used in one is crappy (as was the case with the Grand Councilwoman and Lady Tremaine, just to name a couple). In the end, this all goes back to making sure both websites benefit from each other.    
*'''The Merge''' - Let me be one of the first to say that I'd ''love'' it if we could just loosen up and relax a little on our policies as The Keyhole has (maybe remove a few bans/restrictions so we can possibly relive the old Wiki's glory days :D)! That would certainly make us more welcoming and user-friendly. This is '''not''' to say, however, that we should become like KHInsider (though keeping our news section updated would be nice). We should never become a site that favors community over content. Instead, we should try to keep the two areas of this site in perfect balance. Thus I'd like to point out the Final Fantasy Wiki (where I've been spending a majority of my computer time lately), which functions normally and just as effectively as we do even with the dozens of fan-projects and edits to fan articles (such as Dead Fantasy) appearing in the Recent Changes list along with mainspace edits. We should study their policies and try to adapt them to suit our own needs. This Wiki should always be a place for both mutual information-sharing about an epic video game series AND providing a place to cool down with "friends." It should NEVER become a job or a place of dread.

Shockingly enough, I believe that ends this massive wall-o'-text from yours truly. I hope people actually take the time to put my words and opinions into consideration. I guess when you get right down to it, I'm for the merge. I just hope that once this is all over, we can make ourselves all the better for it.}}
{{TNE|time=02:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)|text=Yeah. We need to get to the spirit of things. I know that the meeting's gonna be adjourned, but there is room for discussion of some, if not all of those things. Much of what I wanted to say has been addressed by ENX's comment, but part is in the Roundtable logs.

If anyone wants to give input, you're most welcome.}}
{{KrytenKoro|"After we choose ONE b-crat from The Keyhole, he or she can replace Kryten once he has been demoted as requested."

Yeah, I said that was only on the table if we threw out the current staff and ran elections from scratch.

Also:
"The idea of remerging makes me ask "What was the point of us separating from Wikia in the first place?" I mean, is it really so hard to use Oasis? Sure it's not Monaco, but..."

Just in case anyone else has this entirely incorrect impression: '''''<big>This merge discussion is not about going back to wikia. It is about bringing the wikia community over here and going back to the original plan.</big>'''''}}
{{LA|Vtext=Logs, courtesy of UnknownChaser.

Part 1: http://pastebin.com/uYQ1UNjN

Part 2: http://pastebin.com/4drnZ4mr

Part 3: http://pastebin.com/nEDJ00xY
}}
{{MV|time=[[User:Master Vantius|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Master Vantius/Sig1&#125;&#125;]] 04:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)|text=I am posting this on '''both''' wikis.

After being at the meeting briefly, I got the impression that the Keyhole will be left to its own devices again when the merge happens.  So, I got an idea.

Why can't both wikis be extensions of each other.  The Keyhole be the fanbased and .net be the encyclopedia.  They share an over arching staff, and have smaller local staff to see day-to-day ops.  This could promote a real "community" feel.

If you think this is a bad idea say so.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=05:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC)|neku= [http://pastebin.com/ACbtDuba This] is a log which serves two purposes: It discusses the points in which the roundtable hit on, as well as showcasing Kryten's opinions. Please read, it's a condensed version of Chaser's massive logs.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Going to give a short summary:

First off, regarding any changes to the trivia sections, everyone needs to read [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:Repowers#Why_I_hate_your_writing this].

Second off, we should be looking at the tfwiki for a good model of how to make a ''successful'' wiki that is both comprehensive and fun to edit. As some evidence of how successful they are at this...half of their senior editors have contributed to the franchise itself. Their wiki has gotten to the point that ''the wiki itself'' is pretty much part of the franchise.

Okay, specific points:
*Music: KHWiki already has most of the music, thanks to Erry, and we already have it in the Enemy infoboxes (or at least, we have the files and the coding to add them). If the infoboxes simply need to be populated, that's fine.
*DE's renders: I don't see any problem with using the fan-animated renders on the boss articles, or any other sections where they would not be totally redundant to existing images. My issue with using them in the lead where it's not absolutely necessary, is that it makes the wiki seem vain. The lead images are supposed to be the main representation of the subject, and using images created by any of us in place of the officially released and published images makes it seem like we are claiming that we are better than SE themselves. Although it's still SE's material, and so is not actually fanart, it gives off kind of the same feel as when you go to a wikipedia article for something like "hipster" and the main image is one that a person has taken of themselves and posted so that they can be the lead image. When the official image simply doesn't illustrate all that the renders can, that's a perfect situation to use a render. Otherwise, they need to stick to the Gallery or the boss pages.
*Speculation: A long, long time ago, I posted the second note on the [[Dive to the Heart]] article. I'm totally okay with relevant and well-supported or simply factual stuff like [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#Notes this]. However.
**Any speculation we add needs to be completely distinct from the canon and non-debatable facts of the article. Keeping it in a section like "Other appearances" or "Notes" is fine. (Also, we need to totally get rid of "Trivia" and rename it "Notes", because naming it trivia is an invitation to it being filled with trash). Also, regarding the "Lock-On" fiasco -- that was because the change proposed ''affected the entire article and was making a direct claim of truth for something that was unsupported''. We have a long-standing policy of allowing similar claims within the "other appearances" section (see [[Zantetsuken]]), so...yeah. We already had an established and perfectly open way to do it without making a non-supported claim of fact.
**Again, I am personally fine with relaxing our "no speculation" policy as long as the speculation ''is confined to a specific section and clearly defined as speculation''. When I first joined the wiki, I spent what must be a year and a half cleaning up obviously false info that had been left there because people speculated, and the claims were accepted as true or forgotten. [[13 Mushroom]] and [[Two Across]] is a particularly shameful example of not only the wiki but the entire community accepting blatantly false info that was easily checkable, simply because people speculated irresponsibly and people let it stand. The Zeldawiki also has a healthy policy where theories are detailed on the page, but clearly marked, and eradicated if proven false.
***So again, well-written speculation is perfectly fine, but under no circumstances should it be placed or written so that it appears to be a claim of fact.
*Ability articles: I can't find any actual ability articles in Oathoblivion's contributions that khwiki doesn't have. However, if we don't have an article for an official ability, we should absolutely have it.
*Merging items/armor into a single page: I simply can't think of any way to merge all of those infoboxes into one table. The table would be huge and unreadable (remember, we have to have information on how to obtain the items), and I don't see any particular need to give up our current policy of giving all official topics an article.
*Talk pages: I see no issue with discussion on the topic of the article, so long as the talk pages are regularly archived (like every two months) so that that stuff doesn't overwhelm the work-based topics. I'm a bit confused, though: what's wrong with the KH-based forum we already have? If we allow this type of discussion, would we be getting rid of that forum? If necessary, we could also look into splitting the talk pages into a "Commentary" and "Chat" page. This could be done either with the new suite template I've introduced at [[Riku]], or by actually editing the mediawiki code to create an extra tab at the top of the page.
*DeadFantasy: I can't think of any reason why this would need to be moved from the wikia unless the wikia is actually being abandoned. Furthermore, I have serious doubts about its legality (it is ''not'' protected speech, and I doubt he paid to use the characters), and there's no functional difference between it and any highly-viewed artpiece on deviantart. On the converse, it is the ''perfect'' subject for a wiki that focuses on the fandom of Kingdom Hearts.
**To follow up with that, for such a wiki it would be incredibly easy to start articles on the various conventions, fanmade cosplay items, fansites, etc. From experience, I can tell you that no matter how restrictive the wiki is, no matter how few editors you have, just ''starting'' those types of articles will get them to explode. The fandom is as vain as anyone else, and loves to talk about itself.
*Forums: I don't see any problem with moving over all of the keyhole's forums, except for the archive one. Several reasons: it seems rather against the idea of what we do elsewhere to close a discussion and forbid any followups; the software automatically moves abandoned threads to the back of the queue; if the topic becomes relevant again, like discussion about a project, ease of access to the previous discussion is extremely helpful; if someone has something to say about the exact same topic, do we really want them starting a new topic? On the converse, the gamehelps forum is a WONDERFUL idea, and in fact, I think that old or closed topics there should be merged into the walkthrough project. 
*Music in infoboxes: We actually already do that, and have for a while. ''However'', Erry and them have been trying to design a jazzy logo for the music bit to make it easier to spot within the infobox. I would be ''ecstatic'' if the aesthetic gurus at the keyhole would help get that problem solved.
}}
@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 <big>'''Update 2: There will be a follow-up meeting held on Tuesday the 27<sup>th</sup>, at <big><big>5</big></big> PM EST. If you missed the first meeting, you can still attend this one. At this follow-up meeting, we will address the topics we didn't cover (Templates and Walkthroughs), as well as wrap up the ones from the first meeting.'''</big> {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 02:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
-:<big>'''Here are the logs from the roundtable meeting, note that its split into 3 parts (yes that how long it was):
-*[http://pastebin.com/uYQ1UNjN Part 1]
-*[http://pastebin.com/4drnZ4mr Part 2]
-*[http://pastebin.com/nEDJ00xY Part 3]'''</big>
-{{User:UnknownChaser/Sig}} 03:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 ==Caveat==
 {{neumannz|time=20:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)|notice=I shouldn't have to say this, but I will, just to be safe.