Editing Forum:Reached my breaking point

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->

{{KrytenKoro|emotion=murder|I've reached my tolerance limit for the spamming of talkboxes people are making.

We have people uploading up to forty or fifty fan-images for their talkboxes, images which they never use. Allowing these images for talkboxes was already a huge concession to our "No fanart" policy, and it is being viciously abused.

We have people making six to seven whole templates.

The entire thing has gotten unmanageable, and defeats the entire purpose of a talkbox, which is to ''enhance the identification of your user persona, making it easier for readers to tell who is saying what.''

I propose that we only allow one talkbox template per user, and that it is allowed up to three fan-made images. Anyone who is in violation of that would then need to fix their main template, put up the extras for deletion, and go through each talk page they are listed on and correct the template-calls.}}
{{DTN|time=22:30, February 2, 2011 (UTC)|text=Amen. Hallelujah. Praise the Lor't.

Totally, completely agree. I am 100% fed up with not being to identify a user based on their talk template. Also, can we make it a rule that talk templates have to display the user's username? Having the name shown as "Roxas" or "Terra" doesn't help me, AT ALL.

And to everyone who is about to say, "NO WAY, THAT LIMITS MY FREEDOM AND EXPRESSION." Well, "expression" doesn't mean spamming the image database with images from oftentimes an entirely different franchise and confusing users with your multiple images. And honestly, if you can't find a way to express yourself with three sets of colors, multiple sets of quotes, images, and fonts... well, I kind of artistically pity you.}}
{{SilverCrono|time=22:26, February 2, 2011 (UTC)|armor=Do you mean...different bubbles in a template? Or multiple template pages?

But yeah, while I see what you mean, I haven't seen it as a problem. The templates, I mean. The images ''are'' getting out of hand.}}

{{Chitalian8|time=22:28, February 2, 2011 (UTC)|text= Regarding your point on identifying the user, should it be mandatory for the name in your talkbox to be your actual username (See [[Template:The Dark Master|this template]])?}}

{{Asif|text=Deal! I'm all for it. Seriously, why do you even '''need''' six or seven templates?  One per customer has always worked (except for maybe shoes...), so let's do it!}}
{{SorcerorNobodyTalk
|time=22:47, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
|text=Speaking as someone who does have multiple talk bubble images, I should first point out that if policy was changed so that they had to be externally hosted, I would happily do so. Just protecting myself from possible accusations of hypocrisy. Anyway...

I may not be particularly active on KHWiki, but whenever I do come on, it's sometimes hard to follow who's saying what. That's partly due to being unfamiliar with a lot of the users, since I'm not a regular, but it's clear that even regs are finding it to be an issue. When it comes to names, common sense demands<br>'''EITHER'''
:The actual username
'''OR'''
:A very widely known nickname
'''OR'''
:A variant of the username or nickname that is <u>obvious</u>
If you want examples of the last option, two of my Mafia bubbles on the FFWiki are "Shantotto Nobody" and "Sarda Nobody".

Furthermore, with regards to the bubble images, they should all be a fixed width. On FFWiki, it's 60px, but I am informed that 70px is better here, given the prevalence of 358/2 Days talk portraits. In my case, that would involve a 10px buffer on my 60px images; a simple enough modification. Quite simply, the bubbles need consistent image widths so that the left-hand edges of the actual bubbles line up, because at the moment, '''''THEY BURN THE EYES WITH THE UNEVENNESS AND THE MISALIGNMENT AND THE HUR-TING!''''' <sup>*woo-hoy*</sup> </Frink>
|category=Suggestions
}}

{{DTN|time=22:56, February 2, 2011 (UTC)|text=To clarify, the issue is with the number of fan-made images (mostly). The suggestion is that each user is allowed three fan-made images in their talk template. For example, in [[:Template:SilverCrono|SilverCrono's talk template]], there are three fan-made images: Vanitroll, specialized Saix, and Pyro. This would be the maximum; the Riku images are fine since they are official and wiki-hosted.

Also, the rule of One User, One Template has been overlooked. This means that each user gets ONE talk template page. If they want more talk "bubbles," then they need to add the code to their talk template page to add those. The code is available on most active users' templates, it really shouldn't be hard to just replace a few things to make it fit your needs.}}
{{neumannz|time=03:02, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|notice=We should ABSO-FUGGIN-LUTELY enforce the One User, One Template rule, as well as the inclusion of the username in the talk bubbles.

The images are another matter. DTN, do you mean that there should be a max of three fan-made images '''''period''''', or just hosted on the wiki? I am also perfectly willing to move some or all of my images to private hosting.}}
{{17m|text=Seeing Crono's said fan-art images are from private hosting, I think he means 3 fan-art only.}}
{{ErryTalk|time=03:31, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|saix=I don't see a problem, with enforcing the 1 user, 1 template rule, I have about 6 on my page and it's going much better than having to go through various templates to find the right talk box. However, I think that images should be 3 maximum when hosted on the wiki. If they're private hosting, then it shouldn't matter at all, unless it's starting to get out of hand where they take wiki-hosted images and use them via private hosting, [[Template:ErryTalk|my template]] uses 4 private-hosted custom image talkboxes, it shouldn't be a problem if I add a few more like 2 or 3.}}
{{EO|time=03:58, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|text=I do not mind allowing one talkbox template page per user. That was one of the original rules I always followed. In terms of the fan-made images, taking a ''Kingdom Hearts'' render and converting it into a talk bubble sprite technically doesn't break the policy. When you're making duplicates of an image or images that are relatively similar (see all the Terra images on the Wiki used for talk bubbles), then those should be deleted. A Perry the Platypus or Naruto talk bubble sprite, however, does break the policy since it has nothing to do with ''Kingdom Hearts'' or Square Enix to begin with. Thus, those types of images should be deleted unless, as we initially agreed, they are hosted on Photobucket or another image source. 

In terms of image sizes for talk bubbles, 70px has been our default for the ''Days'' sprites, but several users such as Xiggie have created their own version of a talk bubble template that gets around that, and we have been fine with that for ages. Deleting Xiggie's template would be a cruelty to the Wiki, since so many users here use Xiggie's version of the template rather than the TalkText template. But for certain images, similar to the problem that arose during our signature forum, 70px makes them almost unidentifiable. I'm not saying put 100px images in your template, but you have to put yourself in other users' shoes at some points. 

Users should always have their usernames in their talk bubbles. Having a username of "ILUVAxel" but putting "131842" in your talk bubble '''should not be allowed'''. It's not trying to limit a user's freedom. It's simply trying to make navigation easier for a majority of the community. Sorcerer Nobody actually listed a few options I see no harm in going with for this matter.}}

{{CaelumLucisCaliga|time=18:26, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|inverse=I oppose the image part (I mean look at mine for 2 seconds). Though I agree about that it should be canonical, at least to an extent. I see no problem in using an image of a KH render. For example, mine and ENX's. Both aren't real bubbles, but ''are'' official KH renders. A good deal of talk bubbles images used by the people here ''are'' official KH renders. Almost everyone in this forum is using a fan-made, KH render image.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay:
#If you absolutely must have your fan-touchups, host them off-wiki.
#Converting a Kingdom Hearts image into a talk bubble sprite fully breaks the policy, just as much as a Platypus talk bubble would. Again, we get way too many of these per person, and because they are marked as User Images, they are maintained poorly. We have tons of these that aren't even used, and are just there because someone wanted to upload it.
#"A lot of people are breaking clearly stated policies" is not a reason to accept it, especially when it is so incredibly easy to fix the issue.

Like I said above, I've reached my breaking point. I'm tired of seeing the upload log be 90% user-image spam. All you have to do is upload the image to photobucket or imageshack, and it will work fine. I don't want it here.}}

{{The Dark Master|time=--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 20:34, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|dark=People should be allowed to have more than one talk bubble.If you have trouble identifying the user by there different talk bubbles then simply ask some users to post there talk bubbless on there user pages so people no which one is which.Not eveyone including myself may do that but just ask them,alos juct click on the link on there talk bubble and it will help you identify who they are.It is okay for people to have more than one talk bubless because it helps exprees there creativity when making one.Let there be some fanart on there talk bubbles as long as its not be used on articles it should be okay.A wiki's main duty is to giveout info.}}
{{SilverCrono|time=20:42, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|armor=No, you're not getting it. A wiki's main duty is to give out info, but a talk bubble's main duty is to make identifying user's posts easier. If your name isn't explicitly on your bubble, then the entire purpose is essentially date-raped. Is that what you want to do? Cause date rape? Cuz that's illegal.

And why should we have to go to your user page to find out who you are, click the back button, and scroll back to where we were, when you can just have your name on all of your talk bubbles? }}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Completely agreed; however, what would this image be considered?  While, no, it was never ripped from in game, it is simply a cropped image of an official render.  I suppose that counts as fan made.'''}}

{{The Dark Master|time=[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:23, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|dark=Guys you are not getting my point.Editors on the wiki are like writers,they enjoy creative developemnt which is what talk bubbles provide for them.Also I have seen plenty of talk images that were made by users and some of these images were not even in the games for KH.Would that not be condidered fan made?}}
{{KrytenKoro|....TDM.

#No one is saying that the talkboxes must be ''eliminated''. What we are saying is that, if you have more than one, it needs to be combined with your main template. This is easy enough to do with if tags.
#Talk images: '''''YES'''''. They would be fan made. So would all the faux-Days images. They are all very, very much so fanart. And they can all, down to the last one, be hosted on photobucket or imageshack.

I honestly don't give a shit about the actual layout of the talkboxes, whether they are standardized in size or name. What is making my life difficult is that the various pieces of them are STREWN ACROSS THE WIKI because people aren't keeping their stuff in order. You'll notice that even though me and DTN both have multiple talkbox avatars and versions, we (1) use a single over-template, and (2) have very, very few fan-made images as our avatars (I have one that BK made me as a Christmas Gift, and I'm planning on putting that on photobucket as well).

We have to have almost 100 different variations on the Roxas-Days-box by now. That's not orderly, and there's no need for it. It's not like it's easier to upload the images here or anything - at photobucket, you can upload them en masse in seconds, while here, you can only do ten at a time, and it tries to halt you with warnings for every one.}}
{{The Dark Master|time=[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:45, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|dark=Yes I know there are many talk box images but hvaing so many of them is necessary so that people they can be stored and used by new users in the future.There is no harm in having fan art on talk bubbles just as long as people do not use them on articles so we can keep stuff clean.Kryten can youtell are you angry about people having more than one template page or that there are too many  talk bubbles?}}
{{SorcerorNobodyTalk
|time=21:53, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
|text=Perhaps I am naive, but I would have though that, by definition, if an image is for purely user-based purposes, it is a user image. Regardless of whether it is a KH-related image, and regardless of whether it's derived from an ''official'' image, if it isn't uploaded for the purpose of being used on the wiki's mainspace, projectspace or galleryspace – are there any other "proper" namespaces? If so, those too – it's a user image.

Questionable comparison to date-rape aside, I agree completely with SilverCrono's point above. The ''raison d'etre'' of the wiki is '''to be a wiki'''. Talk bubbles are a pretty bauble, a decorative piece of code, but underneath that they, like the wiki, have a ''function'', which is to show who is saying what. While there is some scope for creativity, it must not be at the cost of the function, i.e. ''there is <u>no</u> excuse for it being unclear whose bubble it is''.

If you want to do something purely for the sake of it being creative, I direct you to DeviantArt, FanFiction.net, or any of a billion other sites that exist for the purpose of creativity. In the meantime, it has no place here if it's going to interfere with the actual purposes of the talk bubble.

Incidentally, the same is true of signatures, but let's not wade into that issue right now.
----
EDIT CONFLICT:<br>
Okay, TDM, you officially have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.
:''...necessary so that people they can be stored and used by new users in the future.''
What? No, sorry, that's pure BS. They are in no way necessary, and the wiki is not a hosting site. Y'know, '''''because it's a wiki'''''.
:''There is no harm in having fan art on talk bubbles...''
Indeed, but that doesn't mean they should be hosted on the wiki.
:''...are you angry about people having more than one template page or that there are too many  talk bubbles?''
Try reading all of the previous posts. You'll notice that the answer to this question is already clearly spelled out.
|category=Let's make things clear
}}

{{The Dark Master|time=[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 21:59, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|dark=Let me explain myself again.Having a talk bubble is merely used for creativity,we do not need the talk bubbles to talk with other users it is just something that is used to make things fun for a user and to help them get into the fantasy of KH.}}
{{KrytenKoro|NOBODY IS SAYING TO GET RID OF TALKBUBBLES. I am saying "The talkbubbles are being left a mess, they need to be SORTED OUT." That means moving all the fan-images to an external host, and compressing all the templates down to one per user. NOTHING WILL BE LOST BY DOING THIS. IT IS PURELY FOR ORGANIZATIONAL PURPOSES.}}

{{The Dark Master|time=[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 22:16, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|dark=I see what you mean.So if fan made talk bubbles are put on a seperate host then they can still be used by users on the wiki?}}

TDM: Okay, now that you kinda understand, let me make it clear.  When he said "not as many", he meant, "instead of <nowiki>{{T_IHappy}}, {{T_IAngry}}, and {{T_ISad}}, you would just have: {{T_I}}.</nowiki>  Oh, and I'll need to printscreen all of my talk bubble images so I have the right sizes before I can Photobucket them.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 22:32, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

{{Asif|text=And... I'm guessing it'll still be okay to have fanmade images that are hosted externally?}}

Yes. {{The Inexistentsig}} 01:24, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

{{17m|text= So.... should we put the talk bubble images on Photobucket after we moved?}}
{{TNE|time=11:36, 14 February 2011 (EST)|text=If they are not in use by a gazillion users, absolutely. 

On the subject, those talk bubble images in my TTA which have two to three uses may be earmarked for deletion (but not deleted — I'll have to handle the taking out and everything myself).}}

{{iZerox|time=12:02, 14 February 2011 (EST)|sad=May I bring up a point that may not have been thought of yet? I quite often access the wiki at the local library, but the problem is the library '''blocks all images from sites like photobucket'''. For me personally this makes the move of all talk bubbles to photobucket quite frustrating as the local facilities here that I can use to access the wiki block photobucket and other similar image hosting sites. For me this change would make it harder to identify people as opposed to easier. I'm sure I'm not the only user who would ever have this situation either.

I have a whopping 6 talk bubble images that are all in the same template and used for different emotions etc. I have no intention of making anymore either as I already have more than enough to do what I need to on the wiki. My talk bubble images reach a sum of only 120KB altogether, most of that being my Ansem image. Without that one (which I have no desire to delete the Ansem on as I actually use it) '''my talk bubble images are only 40KB in total'''.

My images aren't duplicates of anyone's and are very unique in comparison to other users. They take very little space on the wiki and to say that I'm wasting server storage room is ridiculous because the file size is so minuscule.

Don't misunderstand me, I fully understand the desire to not have 400 talk bubble images of the same render over and over again. And to remedy this you could just make a categorized page with images people can use so they can see if a bubble with that render already exists. But I am of the opinion that is to our advantage to have things hosted locally instead of externally, especially when the alternative is photobucket which can eventually and quite often does replace your image with a "Bandwidth Exceeded" message.}}

Maybe it would be a good idea to allot a certain amount of user images per user.  These could be anything from talk bubble images to an archive image, to sig images.  Limit of 7, maybe?  {{The Inexistentsig}} 08:42, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:I've never seen an archive image uploaded to the wiki, and most sig images are actual images in the wiki with purpose, for example [[Template:SilverCrono/Sig|mine]]. The only counter-example to this I can think of is [[User:JFHavoc/Sig|JFH's sig]]. --{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 09:14, 19 February 2011 (EST)

Exactly.  I tried (and have seen others try) to upload them.  However, they were quickly deleted <small>Which, admittedly, made me really angry, wondering why the admins were deleting images that could actually be used when there were over 1000 files marked for deletion, completely unused.  -_-</small>.  And Crono, before this sig, you had (or maybe you still do, I don't know) a randomized set of Claymore image sigs.  You didn't upload those, as they would have been user images, with no mainspace purpose, and then someone would have deleted them.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 18:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:Yeah, I know. I didn't upload them, they were on my Photobucket. Why are you saying this, it has nothing to do with anything.. In fact, it reinforces the point of this forum; to keep user-only images on Photobucket. ._. --{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 20:14, 19 February 2011 (EST).

Well then if this were to be the case, it would effect me alot, due to 80% of my talk bubble images are fanmade...I'll be ok with the new policy, the only question I have is: "How does one host image from Photobucket and other sites?" o.O [[User:UnknownChaser|UnknownChaser]] 21:58, 19 February 2011 (EST)

Well, that one's simple enough. Go to Photobucket, create an account, upload the image to your account, then put the link into any wiki page, and it should appear. There are many examples you can see just around this wiki.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 22:08, 19 February 2011 (EST)

@Crono- actually, it reinforces my point.  If a user is going to us an image a hundred times over, especially one that amounts to only a few hundred bytes, there is no reason why it should be forced to be be hosted somewhere where size manipulation in bytes and link giving, or just general viewing are handicapped.  Also, maybe I have a different definition of "wiki purpose", but VSymbol links to no mainspace or article use template pages.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 13:44, 20 February 2011 (EST)

{{ShardofTruth|time=19:54, 6 March 2011 (EST)|talk=Since the decision is final now I have three concerns:
*I, and most likely 90% of the users use Xiggies Talk Template as the basis for our own template. It's currently impossible to change the image adress that easily, because it's heavily coded in wiki style. Can someone with template super skills make a version, where linking an image from an external source is easy?
*If only one template is allowed now, what about the mutiple templates that were used in the past? It would be an huge amount of work to replace every coding on every page, someone has ever written on.
*Is it really necessary to delete all CoM and 358/2 Days talk sprites? I think most of them are official material, so why shouldn't they be hosted here? }}

{{Asif|sho=To answer your questions,
#If you use Xiggie's Talk Template 2, you can simply add the url of the Photobucket image into the template in lieu of the file name, and it will work.  Just add the number "2" next to "User:Xiggie/TalkTemplate", making it "User:Xiggie/TalkTemplate2".
#We're just going to have to compile them somehow.  Yes, it will be a lot of work, but I don't know how it would be done.  You'd need to ask another admin about that.
#Although they are official, the CoM and 358/2 Days talk sprites were edited so that the red bars at the bottom of each image were removed, making them non-official.  Therefore, they are no longer allowed on the wiki.

I hope that clears everything up.}}

{{ShardofTruth|time=06:44, 7 March 2011 (EST)|talk=Thanks for the answers, TalkTemplate2 works like a charm.
About the mugshots: The ones from CoM don't have a red bar (as you can see [http://www.spriters-resource.com/gameboy_advance/khcom/index.html here] on many examples) and the redbarless 358/2 Days mugshots are just cutted versions of the original ripped images, nothing was replaced or altered.
I know that their sole purpose here is for the talk templates (and some galleries), having 10 for every character also invites to do sad, mad and glad template, which defeates the purpose now. Maybe we should pick out the good ones and leave the bad ones for the crop.}}