Editing Forum:Music Article Phrasing - First Sentence

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{Xion4ever|time=03:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|text=Alrighty. Seeing as how there's been a disagreement on this I've started this forum to settle a dispute on the music articles. The articles in question are the individual music track articles. From tonight's adventure: [[The Force in You]], [[Tension Rising]], [[Memories in Pieces]], [[Kairi (track)]], and especially [[The 13th Floor]]. The first sentence goes something like this: "<music piece> is a <debate spot #1> by Yoko Shimomura that is <debate spot #2> in <insert games here>.

Debate Spot #1:

As KeybladeSpyMaster and I have been creating these individual track articles we've both been using a variety of words/phrases for this. So far what we've been using consists of:

*"is a musical composition" [[The 13th Floor]]
*"is a musical piece" [[Lazy Afternoons]]
*"is an instrumental piece" [[Naminé (track)]], [[Sinister Sundown]]- which is one of two of our "best example of music articles"
*"is a musical theme" [[Lord of the Castle]]
*"is a piece composed by" [http://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Kairi_%28track%29&diff=656349&oldid=656344 Click]

Not been used but another idea:
*"is a composition by" [[User talk:EternalNothingnessXIII#Re:Music articles first sentence]]

So, example sentence: "The Force in You is a musical composition/musical piece/instrumental piece/musical theme/piece composed/composition by Yoko Shimomura..." To me, all of those musical phrases will work. I see nothing wrong with having a selection of options in which we can use- especially with the music articles. Music has so many different ways of saying something, outside of emotions, that when you look at it and think about...is pretty cool. So, that's my thoughts on that.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that I'm having to write this forum up in the first place. We get made fun of all the time for arguing over the dumbest of things and being too strict, and yet here we are. I'll go even further to say this, I find it completely hilarious that the party voicing such claims is playing a part in this. I'll apologize for my partaking and will take a warning if that's what the community decides in the end. But, dang it guys, there are SO many other projects we could be doing on here and yet we're wasting time being RC vultures, doing simple grammar edits, and, worst of all, edit warring. If you are unsure of what these projects are, then look at the project pages or ask Neumannz, FifteenthMember, KeybladeSpyMaster, Kryten, and myself. We'll gladly share some links and get you on your way. Also, and this goes for anyone/everyone, if you're ever considering a staff position, the best way to prove yourself is to head projects, article creation, and actual hard work such as filling in multiple pages and sections- what is listed over on the [[KHWiki:Staff|staff]] page. Just because you've been here forever doesn't entitle you to anything; time spent on here means nothing- look at KSM, he's an admin and he hasn't been here for more than two years. ^_^

Oh, and the lack of discussion on Debate Spot #2 goes to show just how ridiculous and silly I think all of this is. Now, back to those .ogg files. >_<}}
{{ENX|annoyed=<s>I personally find this forum uncalled for and unnecessary, as well. I strive for professionalism, and the only reason why I've been "correcting" your music articles is because they were worded rather poorly in some places. In the end, I thought we settled on "________ is a musical composition by Yoko Shimomura...". That's why I went ahead and started changing the other articles to reflect that. 

I do not think it is fair to be glorifying certain users on the forums at the expense of others, either. Some of us work just as hard as others, even if we aren't the leaders of any project in particular or there aren't any articles to create.</s>}}
{{ENX|hooded=I apologize for that little outburst. All I have been trying to do is maintain professionalism and consistency on the Wiki, that is all. Edit warring and causing a fuss was not at all my intention. I'm still not sure how appropriate it was to take such a small matter and turn it into a forum, but I'll support whatever we decide to do. Is "_________ is a musical composition by Yoko Shimomura..." still alright?}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=04:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|text=EDIT CONFLICT!

I must side with Xion in this situation. We really don't need this forum, it's ridiculous that we needed to start it. The reality is that all of the examples Xion said are perfectly acceptable in wording. None of them are grammatically incorrect, none of them are linguistically incorrect, none of them violate the rights of others to do anything, or offend anyone, or are in a different language. They're all fine in their wording. Yes, we strive for professionalism, that is the purpose of this wiki. It's the reason this wiki even exists. It's the principle upon which this wiki was founded upon. 

However, there's a difference between striving for professionalism, and being overly strict in an attempt at perfectionism. Trust me, I know; I'm a perfectionist myself. I often pay attention to one too many of the insignificant details in real life. However, here's the problem: squabbling over insignificant and minute details like this on the wiki makes us unprofessional. Just look through the Realm of Sleep and other old forums. Take a look through a couple talk pages. Scan through a couple of the IRC logs no doubt kept by many of us. There's one too many debates over petty and insignificant things like this. There's plenty of evidence that this kind of arguing is what makes us unprofessional. It's part of the reason, arguably, that we don't have the traffic we wish we had, part of the reason we even need to organize projects like MegaProject: Arise and Operation: Keychain, part of the reason people arrive, make an edit, and never come back. Of course, there are other, less controllable reasons, but this is arguably one of the more prominent of all the reasons that is in our control.

Right now, we're arguing over the technical wording of the introductory sentences to articles on musical pieces. This morning, there was arguing over the wording of captions for GIF animations in articles. Last week, there was disagreement over the rules to naming articles that was essentially boiling down to minor technicalities. Four months ago, there was debate over the use of the <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> template over two clicks of the "Enter" key. I mean, really, no one is going to notice the difference there! We can't keep doing this. It's hurting our credibility. 

We can have uniformity. We can have professionalism. We can have great articles that follow English grammar conventions without overly restricting ourselves like this over such technicalities. For sure, if there's a grammar error, by all means, correct it. If I type something stupid like "She quickly fights the Heartless off" when it's supposed to be an article on Sora, I'd be stupid to object to the fix. If I miss a period, or put it in the wrong place, or I use run-on sentences, then by all means, fix it. Call me out on it. Warn me if I do it too many times and I don't seem to care. Trust me, we're not perfect. None of us profess to be (I hope). But to make a fuss over such minor details that the typical ''Kingdom Hearts'' fan, our audience, lest we forget, is never going to notice is unneeded. It only hurts us, it sours relationships on this wiki (and has been the source of such resentment in the past among users), and it scares off and angers people.}}
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 Right now, we're arguing over the technical wording of the introductory sentences to articles on musical pieces. This morning, there was arguing over the wording of captions for GIF animations in articles. Last week, there was disagreement over the rules to naming articles that was essentially boiling down to minor technicalities. Four months ago, there was debate over the use of the <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> template over two clicks of the "Enter" key. I mean, really, no one is going to notice the difference there! We can't keep doing this. It's hurting our credibility.
-We can have uniformity. We can have professionalism. We can have great articles that follow English grammar conventions without overly restricting ourselves like this over such technicalities. For sure, if there's a grammar error, by all means, correct it. If I type something stupid like "She quickly fights the Heartless off" when it's supposed to be an article on Sora, I'd be stupid to object to the fix. If I miss a period, or put it in the wrong place, or I use run-on sentences, then by all means, fix it. Call me out on it. Warn me if I do it too many times and I don't seem to care. Trust me, we're not perfect. None of us profess to be (I hope). But to make a fuss over such minor details that the typical ''Kingdom Hearts'' fan, our audience, lest we forget, is never going to notice is unneeded. It only hurts us, it sours relationships on this wiki (and has been the source of such resentment in the past among users), and it scares off and angers people.
+We can have uniformity. We can have professionalism. We can have great articles that follow English grammar conventions without overly restricting ourselves like this over such technicalities. For sure, if there's a grammar error, by all means, correct it. If I type something stupid like "She quickly fights the Heartless off" when it's supposed to be an article on Sora, I'd be stupid to object to the fix. If I miss a period, or put it in the wrong place, or I use run-on sentences, then by all means, fix it. Call me out on it. Warn me if I do it too many times and I don't seem to care. Trust me, we're not perfect. None of us profess to be (I hope). But to make a fuss over such minor details that the typical ''Kingdom Hearts'' fan, our audience, lest we forget, is never going to notice is unneeded. It only hurts us, it sours relationships on this wiki (and has been the source of such resentment in the past among users), and it scares off and angers people.}}
-Let's make an effort to look beyond the minute imperfections and flaws we all undoubtedly have (yes, even those of you who might profess to lack any). Let's move on from this crazy fighting and edit warring. This is by no means an attack against any one person. This applies to all, from the most inactive veteran, to the most recent newcomer, from the most experienced editor to the longest standing administrator. ENX, yes, your example works, but like I said earlier, so do all of Xion's examples. They all equally express the intended idea: Track X is a song created by Yoko Shimomura. Whether we use "musical piece" over "song" or "composed" over "created" or "composition" over the whole thing, they all express the same basic idea, and so long as they do not violate the standard conventional use of the English language as used in the United States (whichever version of ''that'' we use), they should all be acceptable on the wiki.}}
-{{ENX|time=05:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|sad=I don't care what you two do anymore. Just '''''please''''' be consistent. Part of the reason I have such an issue with you guys using different terms on every other page (versus every other "type" of article, where we follow a specific format) is my OCD...}}
-{{Xion4ever|time=06:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|text=Nice to know the main paragraphs of text were useless. Fine. Looks like we're continuing this discussion then.<br>The purpose of this forum is to determine whether we're going to follow one specific format, or allow any of the blurbs from above. Both KSM and I have expressed our view on this. We don't see a problem with using any of the above phrases I mentioned in my first post. We don't see a problem with having the variety.}}
-{{TheSilentHero|time=17:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|ike=I don't think it matters which sentence we use, but I do think we should use the same thing on every article.}}
-{{ENX|time=17:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|hooded=Exactly! Every other article type we have follows a specific format; music articles should '''not''' be an exception. I thought we agreed to phrase things as "_______ is a musical composition by Yoko Shimomura...", Xion4ever, which is why I was surprised you created this forum anyways.}}
-So, "[track title] is a musical composition by [composer] that appears in [game/the Kingdom Hearts series]"? Are there any that would be exceptions to this format?  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 19:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
-{{Xion4ever|time=19:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)|text=Xion4ever created this forum because we were edit warring over two or three words. ENX, you seemed well content in monitoring the RC and just changing the words from perfectly acceptable phrases to the phrase you saw fit instead of actually discussing which phrasing we decided upon- which we never did. I sure haven't been able to find any discussion on it. Ten bucks to the person who can provide the link(s). What I'm seeing is that KSM and Coldasfire started creating articles using whatever phrasing they wanted- all of which that worked.
-@ Neumannz: That works fine. Composition could be used to cover the different types of tracks. Now, the next question: we going with "game" or "the Kingdom Hearts series?"}}
-Whichever one is more appropriate for the track in question. "He's a Pirate" only appears in KHII, for example.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 22:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
-{{TheSilentHero|time=07:46, 9 January 2015 (UTC)|mac=I think we should go with game, because it's obvious it appears in the Kingdom Hearts series. If it didn't, it wouldn't be on this wiki. And like other articles, if it appears in a lot of games, just use "introduced in ..."}}