Editing Forum:KHWiki Staff: Reverse/Rebirth

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{{DTN|time=07:02, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=After discussing this point with a fellow administator via IRC, it has come to my attention that a plethora of our "active" staff are not active ''at all''. Just as we did several months ago, I feel that it is time to label additional administrators and moderators as retired editors--again, nobody will lose their user rights or position, but will merely be moved off of the active staff panel.

I consider the following staff members to be inactive, as of this moment in the wiki's history and activity:

*Bluerfn - no consistent or recent editing or input in most major forums
*BebopKate - stated herself that she is currently on a break
*Azul81677 - though he is active almost nightly on IRC and occasionally on FFWiki, he is not present here
*HeartOfOblivion - disappeared from the face of the wiki
*Guardian Soul - disappeared from the face of the wiki
*Ultima the High Seraph - thought he is active ocassionaly on FFWiki, he is not present here
*EternalNothingnessXIII - no consistent or recent editing or input in most major forums
*Urutapu - disappeared from the face of the wiki

Let me say, personally, that I find it to reflect badly on our wiki to have supposedly fifteen active staff members, yet about half of them are not around to assist those who need them. Due to this many staff members being added to the retired lists, I want to propose the addition of not one, not two, but ''three'' new moderators (speaking generally as a whole, our mods are inactive already, and we have no call for a new admin). The moderators will retain their abilities on this wiki, as well as the new one to be moved to.

#LapisScarab: This guy is absolutely amazing; his work ethic is incredible, he hits all of the forums and talk pages, and has a higher mainspace edit count than most of the current staff members.
#LevL: ''see KrytenKoro's message''
#NinjaSheik: A prolific editor who is long overdue for becoming a moderator, with a high edit count in the namespaces that count, constant editing, and speedy revisions of questionable edits and vandalism.

Now we need to discuss what to propose to the bureaucrats, Bluerfn and BebopKate. In the discussion section below, please state all agreements and objection you have to these three moderators being added, including if you think other users are worth being considered ''more than those already listed above''. Also, be sure to agree/disagree with the staff members being listed as inactive.}}
{{KrytenKoro|My reason for nominating LevL was that he has maintained activity, and has done excellent work in maintenance edits. In particular, his mostly single-handed drive to remove the capitalization from non-starting words in headers, something which meant correcting virtually every page, was extraordinary.}}
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==Discussion==
{{LA|Vtext=Do what must be done, Doorsey.

Lapis, Levl, and Ninja would be GREAT mods. I say we promote them as soon as Levl makes featured user.

As for Bluer and Kate, I think it's best to leave Bluer as a 'crat... I dunno, something just feels right about it. As for Kate, didn't we appoint her a bureaucrat just a few months ago? We can't shoot her down after like half a year of bureaucrat-ness just because she decided to take some time off. 

And I really think we should get the sticks out of our asses and do some de-sysoping. Y'know wut I'm sayin'?}}
{{Soxra|roxas=Honestly, of the three mods proposed, I feel that only Lapis truly deserves the golden mark, and specifically for the reasons that Door mentioned. He's active, friendly, and a good contributor. While I like both LevL and Ninja as editors, I think neither of them really does enough, nor is active enough, to maintain a moderation position.

As for the inactive admins, I've not seen any of them in my 3+ months here. More room could be made for deserving admins. ''(For which I can think of one in particular—his name starts with an 'N'.)''

Just my $0.02.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=7:16am, January 9, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
{{DTN|time=07:21, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=LegoAlchemist: No no no. Removing an admin's user rights is totally ignoring the work they did for this wiki to earn that position. Those users can return at any time, and should still be honored for what they have done, and their commitment to the wiki that they held at one point. I wrote an entire paragraph or two about this on FFWiki, I can copy/paste it if you would like.

And don't worry about the burearucrats, they will still be there, just listed as retired. Their rights will remain--after all, we'll be contacting them with our proposal!}}

{{LapisScarab|time=07:27, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=I've said it before and I'll say it again. NinjaSheik is basically the reason I started editing this Wiki consistently. She's a fantastic editor that's not only here almost daily, but also keeps a constantly-updated calendar and schedule of when she'll be here.

I nominated LevL to be the featured user for a reason, he'd be a great Mod. He's been a tad inactive, but I've seen him around recently.

Bluerfn, ENX, and, to an extent, Ultima fall into the same category as LevL from what I remember. I've seen them around, just not as frequently as normal. I don't know if I'd call them completely inactive. EDIT: Huh, Bluer was less active recently than I thought.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Doorsey, instead of pasting it, you could link it. I'd love to read it.}} 
: [[w:c:finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion#Discussion about Inactive Staff|Here you go.]] --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 08:14, January 9, 2011 (UTC) 
{{KrytenKoro|For reference:
*Bluerfn: Last edit 2 Jan, last article edit 3 Oct, last staff edit 9 Oct.
*BebopKate: Last edit 1 Nov, last article edit 11 Oct, last staff edit 15 Aug, made wiki-break announcement.
*Azul: Last edit 1 Jan, last article edit 19 Sep, last staff edit 31 Dec.
*HeartOfOblivion: Last edit (article) 9 Sep, last staff edit 15 Jun.
*GuardianSoul: Last edit (article) 12 Sep, last staff edit 2 Sep.
*Ultima The High Seraph: Last edit 4 Jan, last article edit 24 Aug, last staff edit 2 Dec.
*EternalNothingnessXIII: Last edit 8 Jan, last article edit 12 Dec, last staff edit 16 Oct.
*Urutapu: Last edit (article) 4 May, last staff edit 19 Jan (2010).

(Wow, voting in the Keyblade War and Mirage Arena really sucked up a lot of the staff's edits.

In seriousness, I would suggest HoO, GS, and Urutapu as probable retirees, and ask the others about their status and if they plan to be "active".}}
{{LevL|time=10:16, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=It actually surprises me that some of those inactive members are still active according to the staff page. I agree that at least most of them should be listed as inactive.

I agree that Lapis and NinjaSheik deserve to be mods, they've both done good work for the wiki.}}
{{MM841|11:16, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|You can move me onto the inactive list. I do miss this place, and I would like to come back at some point in the future, but I have too much going on for me to be a serious editor here. Until I get my exams and everything elese out of the way, I will be inactive.}}
{{Bluer|14:18, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|I am still watching over this wiki despite having no edits for the last few months, but I trust the users, esp. the ones I've given rights to, having worked on reviving the wiki years before, don't worry about my activity or lack thereof.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=14:37, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|cecil= I completely agree with Lapis and Ninja being mods, they're both long overdue. Both have done a ridiculous amount of good work. With LevL, I'm a little skeptical. Certainly he does excellent work, but he rarely shows up on wiki discussions. I feel that he does not contribute enough to everything else besides mainspace.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=20:03, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=Well, the mainspace ''should'' come first.  Mods are just enhanced editors, and most of their powers revolve more around the mainspace. Some forums are important, but not #1.}}
{{Soxra|ienzo=They need to have some presence in the community; no matter the tools they have at their disposal, they need to be able to relate to and be active in the community. It ''is'' a position of authority, after all. (It's the same issue I have with NS.)|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=8:07pm, January 9, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
{{SilverCrono|time=20:43, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|troll=Not to be trollin', but staff need to have a presence. I agree with Soxra; Lapis is the only one I think deserves modship, because I haven't seen LevL edit actively recently, and Ninja reverts vandalism. Not to be mean, but anybody can do that. And she proves that she doesn't even need Rollback; she reverts faster than anybody. Maybe an award, because I agree she deserves recognition; just not staff.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=20:50, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text= Well, if Ninja did have rollback, she would be faster. But yeah, also, not to be hatin', but Ninja sometimes displays un-staff member-like attitude.}}

{{The Dark Master|light=Lapis,Levl, and Sheik are the most qualified to be admin.}}

We're talking about modship at the moment, TDM.

(I'm not ready to give my opinions, yet.)  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 20:57, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

{{LapisScarab|time=21:12, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=Yes, NinjaSheik has lost her temper a few times, but so have many of our current staff members. We all have a breaking point and, since Ninja deals with vandals and unexperienced editors so frequently, she tends to get into more arguments. She has never misused her standard user powers (giving warnings when she shouldn't have, etc.)}}

We all lose our temper at some point but Sheik is both responsible and reliable.--The Dark Master
{{Chitalian8|time=21:26, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|ven= Fair enough. But now hearing Crono's argument, I must admit I kind of see his point. Anyone can revert vandalism, ''I'' revert vandalism quite often. I even am able to do it within the minute the vandal has vandalized the page. Ninja has just done what I do a thousand more times. Does that make her a more reliable editor? Some would say yes, some would say no.}}

{{The Dark Master|text=Well she has done her job quite well and I think she deserves something for it.}}
{{KrytenKoro|...what? What do you guys expect mods to be ''for''? I really don't get it.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=22:05, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|squall= We want them to be good editors, which all three candidates are, but we also want them to be active members of the community. Read Soxra's point.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Active members in what way? Editing? They all do that, more than anyone else here. Describe, exactly, what you guys think they aren't doing enough of, because so far all I'm seeing is "they don't talk on talk pages enough", which is if anything a mark of honor.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=22:48, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|ven= They rarely participate in community-building forums in TWTNW thread, like the Wiki Moving forums. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just my opinion, I'm only speaking for myself.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I'm going to be kind of brutally honest here, and some people may not like it:

In those forums, regular editors don't really contribute much to the discussion. They give their opinions, yes, but between the IRC and the TWTNW forums, the info and decisions that actually end up influencing the wiki are made by discussion between staff-members.

I'm not saying at all that the regular editors are ignored. They aren't. It's just very, very seldom that they contribute anything of real value. I wish they would, really, but since most of the problems are MoS stuff, what LevL and NinjaShiek do actually is the best input they could do - implementing the decisions, and demonstrating their effects.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=00:33, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|text=Quick thing I just noticed; what about Xion4ever? She's experiencing "major inactivity" in her own words.}}

{{LapisScarab|time=04:08, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|text=In regards to the whole "anyone can revert vandalism" thing, by that logic ''I'm'' not qualified to be a mod any more than Ninja or LevL are. I don't do anything magical and I don't have any special tools, I just wrtie stuff. If you really ''needed'' Mod powers to do these things then Staff members would be the only editors. The logic behind making someone a mod isn't so much lettin them do something they ''can't'' do, but rather giving them the ability to do what they're already doing ''better''. Admins are the ones with the "superpowers".}}
{{Soxra|roxas=Lapis, you contribute by actually writing article content (a recent example, the short paragraph in the Xemnas article; there's more, but that's just one that comes to mind). I find that 90% of what LevL and Ninja do are just tweaks here and there ("gnoming") or revisions that, while they benefit the Wiki, I don't think constitutes what a moderator should do, at least not exclusively. Both LevL and Ninja, I feel, could be featured users... but not moderators.

I really don't want to have to pick specific names, but take a look at the existing staff (of both moderating and administrating variety). Not only do they contribute to the Wiki, but they are also present on the forums, talk pages, and community activities. Sure, being involved in a community does not a moderator make, but neither does simply doing edits here and there.

Like Chitalian said, Ninja is not the only one reverting vandalism. I really don't want to sound like I'm attacking people; I'm trying to provide a perspective on them that... I don't know... seems to be being overlooked right now.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:26am, January 10, 2011 (UTC)}}}}
{{KrytenKoro|Actually, out of those listed as our "active staff", very few of them even participated in the last vote on the ''wiki moving'' - that's one of the complaints that led to the revote. Furthermore, the work Ninja and LevL do isn't glorious, no - ''which is why they're the ones doing it''. Normal editors aren't going to look at the headers and say "Oh, that shouldn't be capitalized, well I'll spend the next few weeks correcting that on every single page," or, "oh, someone vandalizes or makes a bad edit roughly every two minutes, I'll make sure to patrol the recent changes pretty much indefinitely." Admins and mods are specifically there to clean up the messes made on the wiki, and honestly, these two are probably the best and most dedicated in that respect.

In point of fact, it is explicitly ''not'' the staff member's place to act like a princess, constantly getting into chats and trying to assert "authority" in discussions. Their place is to clean things up - that's pretty much it.}}
{{Soxra|ienzo=I won't claim to know more about administration of this Wiki than you do, because that would obviously just be wrong. But I disagree strongly about the point of reverting vandalism. I could, off the top of my head, name ten people who are quick vandalism/bad-edit reverters. You don't just slap a moderation sticker on them for that reason. Just because one user's count is higher than others doesn't mean they're more suited—maybe their connection speed is a dozen times faster than the next?

I do partly agree with the part of the capitalizing, as that takes a lot of effort and just plain time on one's hands. I still don't think this is exclusively representative of the quality that I would expect of the moderators here, given the contributions & efforts of the ones we have already.

I don't expect them to be like princesses (as that would just be... awkward), but I expect them to have a community presence. I know all the admins by name here because I see them contribute not only on articles, but represent themselves in the community. It's a position of ''authority'', not just an extra tool or two.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:49am, January 10, 2011 (UTC)}}}}

{{LapisScarab|time=06:43, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|text=And now, for a rant. 

NinjaSheik ''has'' been active in [[Talk:Keyblade Armor|recent]] [[User talk:222.155.76.189|talk page]] [[User talk:Tyxy|discussions]]. Not in recent forums so much, but I doubt that she hasn't seen them, she just doesn't have anything to add. Why do I doubt she's oblivious to them? Because she's here every day. [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&showall=0&target=NinjaSheik Every. Day.] She's not some faceless vandal-fighter for the mainspace either, [[User talk:NinjaSheik#Just wanted to say...|she protects users too]].

She has done [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Xigbar&diff=prev&oldid=95600 gnome] [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Demyx&diff=prev&oldid=95272 work] since she was a newbie. In fact, her [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Axel&diff=prev&oldid=85711 very first edit] (in April of 2009, I might add, she's got some experience) was just that. [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Marluxia&diff=prev&oldid=85717 Since] day one she has been a good editor<!--with a couple slip-ups, like all of us made early on and will no doubt make in the future-->.

Of her 10,338 (at the moment) edits 5,553 (54%) of them have been mainspace edits. 533 (5%) are talk page edits, 3,156 (8%) user talk, and 156 (2%) for forums. And that's excluding several other things. To the people saying that anyone can revert vandalism, fair enough, but have you done it, say, 2,500 times? [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Zexion&diff=next&oldid=93319 Among] [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Sa%C3%AFx&diff=prev&oldid=94293 her] [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Ventus&diff=prev&oldid=94373 earliest] [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Kingdom_Hearts_Wiki:Pages_for_Deletion&diff=prev&oldid=88675 mainspace] [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Kairi&diff=prev&oldid=88464 edits] have been reverting bad edits.  

Anyone can type up a word document or edit an image too<!--okay, so ''I'' can't edit images-->. Hell, Ninja's [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Zexion&diff=prev&oldid=93322 written] a section or two in the past. 

As I said before, it's not a question of ''what'' they can do. It's the dedication and skill with which they do it, and NinjaSheik is an exceptionally dedicated editor. She has earned the level of trust one needs to have to be a mod.}}
{{neumannz|time=06:53, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|notice=I'm not gonna lie, I'm both impressed and horribly frightened by the amount of research you put into that, dude.}}
{{DTN|time=07:02, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|text=... What Neumannz said. Awesome, though.

NinjaSheik also has is a veteran editor of the week--I believe she has been editing here for nearly ''two years'' now. This makes NinjaSheik very familiar with wiki policy and how the wiki has been managed and regulated before. I assure you, having been able to observe all of the staff action in the last two years, she will not fail to rise above previous actions. She's an extremely prolific editor who is more active than most of the wiki, and is one of this wiki's highest-editing users--thankfully, we are very happy to have her with us.

I did some research on LevL, and W-O-W. And I'm not talking World of Warcraft, here. LevL takes the idea of gnoming, increases its helpfulness and breadth by a factor of 100, and does it at an acceptable page. LevL is an incredible WikiGnome, but I have also seen him on major forums in the past. Very often, the admins that post their opinions in the forums first cover many others' opinions, so LevL may not be contributing to discussion as much as you think because what he thinks needs to be said has already been posted.

I still whole-heartedly support all three of these editors as moderators... I think they are three of the examples of true worksmanship in our non-staff community. Even if we were not moving previous staff members to inactive status, I would still have brought up this topic as a reward for the depth and breadth of their fantastic, even star-transcending work.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=06:57, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|happytext=Chalk it up to insomnia, gratitude, and mild OCD. Ninja's gotten passed over for modship one to many times methinks.}}
{{Soxra|ienzo=You bring up her talk page; look further up and tell me if that's responsible behavior for someone of a moderation position. Granted, some is, but the majority is not.<!--By the way, the stuff she posted on that anon's talk page, the 222.* one, was not helpful. It just fueled the fire.-->

Regardless, that's not the point I'm after here. You said anyone can type up a Word doc or edit an image—er, no they cannot. Just watch the Recent Changes page for a whole day and watch how many paragraphs get reverted/taken down because they're not adequate. But anyone—and by anyone, I mean anyone who is literate and who has a drop of common sense—can revert vandalism. It doesn't take much to realize that adding a quote more than 10 or replacing the content with "Sora is a *****" is vandalism or a bad edit. She's been here a long time, admittedly, which is why her revert count is higher. What about the edit-count-to-days-since-registration ratio? You also show that many of her early edits were reverting vandalism. So were mine, and I can think of others who have the same quality.

Though I realize how cruel all my comments sound, I'm trying to be as objective as I can. I just want you to see that the qualities that I, as a user (and someone who's looked after differing communities for a long time), expect and desire from someone of a staff position, regardless of how high on the totem pole they are.

I know you value "dedication and skill", but dedication can be shown in many forms. (What if I do edit 1,000 articles incorrectly? I'm pretty dedicated to contributing, even if I haven't gotten the hang of what I should be doing just yet; my ambitions may still be in the right place.) And skill... well, sure. But I've already discussed that (two paragraphs up).|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=7:01am, January 10, 2011 (UTC)}}}}

{{neumannz|time=07:24, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|notice=OK, now I believe it's time for my opinon. But since I always hate giving it, I'll be short.

Lapis is a prominent and effective editor... But after that rather insane bit of essaying, I'd put in a word for him even if he wasn't.

Levl is a most impressive gnome. I'll admit I don't actually agree with the whole "lose the capitalization in section headers" thing, but that's besides the point. (I don't remember when we decided on that bit.)

NinjaShiek has been a mainstay here for a long time, and she's very reliable. I think she would be well suited for modship.}}
{{Soxra|hood=Sorry, DTN, I guess I just missed the part where gnoming, reverting edits, and having a really high edit count were the only requirements for candidacy for the half-step to administration. ''('''EDIT''' (because I meant to put this in the post the *first* time I hit Save Page): Ninety-nine percent of the people I see in moderation positions who become abusive (or not even abusive, but who don't know how to use their position) are there because they were picked solely for activity level (you know, play time in game servers, post count on forums, etc.). This is why I'm so strongly against simply picking people for this reason.)''

Regardless, this will be my last comment here. Much of what I've said seems to have been ignored at large or blown out of proportion to a point where people are assuming I believe something that I do not<!--Except Lapis; thank you for actually replying to my comments for what they were.-->, and there's no point repeating my statements if they will not be read for what they are.

My apologies to everyone here for getting involved in this.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=8:22am, January 10, 2011 (UTC)}}}}

{{LapisScarab|time=09:05, January 10, 2011 (UTC)|text=I don't think you read what any of ''us'' said quite closely enough, Soxra. When did anyone say that a high editcount was the be all-end all reason for wanting LevL and NinjaSheik to be moderators? Yes, I mentioned it, but I was mainly referring to the percentage of her edits that were geared towards work, not chat. And that was still only one of a multitude of reasons I and other have given. I'm honestly barely glancing at their actual edit counts; if all I cared about was that I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of actually combing through Ninja's contributuions. I would have just said "10K, case closed." 

You say that we should disregard how "high on the totem pole" they are. Umm... why wouldn't we pick the from best editors, the top of the totem pole, if you will, to be staff members? If you're talking about the edit count again, well, see my first paragraph.

It isn't just that they're working hard (and I have no idea whatsoever why you're scoffing at that; of course gnoming and protecting the wiki from vandals are parts of being staff members. Making pages isn't all it's about either). It's that they've done such consistently ''good'' work. They have proven that they can be trusted. Do you really believe for a second that either LevL or NinjaSheik are going to become "abusive" if they become Mods?<!--What are they gping to do if they did anyway? Revert edits they shouldn't slightly faster?--> Sure, Ninja has a bit of a temper, but show me where she's ''ever'' reverted an edit or given a warning purely out of spite or vandalized anything. Yes, I've read her talk page (I went through basically her whole contributions list, why wouldn't I take a gander at the talk page?), and the worst she's ever done is snap at some people. '''Clearly she is a tyrant waiting for a chance to rise up!'''

The same with LevL. The only real issue raised about him is that he hasn't been active on Forums ''recently''. He was in the past, and that's a legitimate concern, but [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/LevL he was just here just yesterday and is overall more active recently]. 

Offering a counter-argument is not the same thing as "He just didn't read what I said." I read you posts, and I understand your concerns... mostly, but I still don't agree. Yes, I know I'm being a bit of a jackass and you're not at all trying to offend anyone. I know you don't have anything against anyone and that you're just voicing your opinion, but I'm sure as hell gonna voice mine too. I don't mean to sound hostile, but that's how it is.}}

{{The Inexistent|KRCCFNF='''I completely agree with these three.'''
*'''Lapis- Obvious.  Been nominated forever and has made about every design section on the wiki.'''
*'''LevL- Never really met him, but I hear he is awesome, and there are... no gnomes in the staff at all, really.  We need some.'''
*'''Ninja- Again, obvious.  And in response to her acting "abusive".  Have you read what people have said to her before?  In all honesty, she is very calm to those that attack her.  Of all the crap vandals and noobs have put her through, I honestly think she deserves a little bit of bite.  Oh, and rollback woukld certainly help her with vandal fighting.'''

'''EDIT:Oh, and why didn't we just do this way back when Kryten started the elections that BK stopped?  I mean, even then, nobody asked GS or HoO if they were going to stay active...'''}}
{{NinjaSheik|sad=Guys...Please, just stop. Dark Master told me about this, he contacted me on my talk page and told me see this. I didn't know why at first, but now I do. I'm happy...I'm happy to know that Sir DTN still thinks of me like that. I'm happy that my friends defended me, but I...don't like what I'm reading. I know about my behavior, I am fully aware of that. So please, just stop. I don't want to read this anymore.

I'm unworthy, I know that. I lose my temper and I know all I do is revert edits. That isn't very much, but I'm doing what I can. I don't like getting into fights, I avoid them because all of you guys are great of putting up arguements and I'm out of my league. That's that real reason why I don't go to fourms or talk pages.

I can't believe you guys are making such a big deal of this. It's a postion of mods, the only fuction I can get is the rollback. That's all, so there. I said what I wanted to say. It's becoming a mod is such a big deal to everyone and if everyone thinks I'm not good enough for the job, then fine. Let Lapis-kun or LevL-san have it. They deserve more than I do. I cast my vote, so I'm done. I won't bother commenting on this fourm anymore, but I'll be keeping watch. After all, I wany Lapis-kun to win more than anyone else. He's my friend, so I'll be rooting for him.}}

{{LapisScarab|time=05:23, January 11, 2011 (UTC)|text=Sorry, NinjaSheik, I guess I went a little overboard. I still think that you're very worthy of being a mod, and I stand by whatI said before, but I could have been less... vicious about it. [sheepishly saves ] Uh... Soxra? Truce? Let's get back on topic here.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''Topic restored.  I still support all three of you... if Ninja still wants to be in the running.  AND, back to Doorsey's "we'll be giving them our proposal" message, what if they say no... [[Forum:Staff Elections 08-10|Like last time?]]'''}}
{{NinjaSheik|text=Of course I still want to be in the running, but when it comes right down to it, I'm not the one who calls the shots. The choice is up to you guys, not me. It's just that...Every time my name is mention, everyone has to argue. I would be honor to be a mod, but the newbies think that I contribute nothing to this wiki. I'm pretty sure even users that have been here for a least a year feels the same way...}}

{{The Inexistent|sheath='''I haven't been here even a year, I feel that you do more than that, it's just that I always cite vandal fighting as what you do in general, because, well, you seem to undo the edit before my page can even load ^_^  But anyway, you deserve mod status.  The staff needs experienced editors like you, editors that can actually use the rollback for something.'''}}
{{NinjaSheik|text=That's sweet, but not everyone thinks that...Like SilverCrono, for example, or Soxra, who recently joined.}}

{{The Inexistent|com='''Maybe they haven't seen your edit count.  Maybe they think you've only made, say, 2000 mainspace edits... Crono that is.  Soxra was very clear above, but, one user's opinion does not constitute a majority.'''}}
{{SilverCrono|text=I'm sorry, guys. I was saying that I didn't believe Ninja ''needed'' Rollback; I bet she reverts faster than Doorsey of Kryten. But if I caused this, I'm sorry. I'm out anyway; regular user opinion isn't listened to, so I'm not wasting my breath.

Er... fingers. Typing. Whatever, you get it.}}

{{LapisScarab|time=03:09, January 12, 2011 (UTC)|text=What are you talking about? Ninja, Inexistent, LevL, myself, and The Dark Master are still all regular users. Disagreeing with someone is not that same as not listening.

And Inexistent, editcount is not all that matters. Soxra and other users have given reasons as to why they disagree with some of the suggestions, but it's a big Wiki, we're not always going to agree.

Lastly, again, what about Xion4ever? Will she be listed as Inactive?}}

{{The Inexistent|dusk='''I meerly meant mainspace.  Some users do infact, believe it or not, judge on edit count.  But experienced editors don't (shouldn't), and instead look for what namespaces these edits are in.  When someone assumes "oh, they only undo vandalism, so they must not have very many mainspace edits", I meant that they should be checking Special:EditCount before assuming.'''}}
{{Xion4ever|time=14:35, January 12, 2011 (UTC)|text=Allow me to get one main point across before I have to go:

I agree to moving up all the nominated moderators [LevL, Ninja, and Lapis] with all my heart. Seriously, those users are freaking amazing, and NO ONE can deny that.

Now, about me being listed as inactive...If that is what the community feels it should do, do it! It's no lie I'm not as active as a staff member should be, we all know that. Although I do edit here as often as I can, I would understand completely if I was moved to the inactive staff list. No hard feelings, questions asked, etc. Let me give an insight about my inactivity: <small><small>outside of grounding, which expires in two years!</small></small> When Azul started losing activity in his Junior year, he was right. Junior year (at least for American users) is pure crazyiness.
You have all the tests [ACT/SAT/your local and state Spring testing], every college visit card they can cram in your tiny mailbox, plenty- I repeat- PLENTY of homework from your classes (especially those taking Honors/AP courses), amongst your extra activities (band, teen court, mock trial, FPS, and what have you), then you squeeze in your church and family and you're pooped. Seriously, it's quite a typhoon. What's the point of this rant on schooling? Simple: I will still be inactive until this school year is over. I'm sorry, guys, I really am. I want to be here every day more than you all know, but it just isn't so.
Like I promised earlier, I will/am getting on here more often than I have in the past. Don't view this rant as a plea to keep me off the inactive staff list- it's not. I'm giving a clearer insight to why I'm inactive and how long I will continue to be inactive.

Finally, I disagree with removing any current staff members "power/rights" without their consent. They worked hard to get where they were, and when they don't show up for a while we give them the boot? Who knows what happened to them? Maybe they lost their internet service; maybe they are too busy with the real life. Who knows? But please,  at least ask them if it's okay before everything is set in stone. I believe both DTN and Yuan's comment on the link DTN posted above about inactive staff were right on the head. [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Staff_Discussion#Discussion_about_Inactive_Staff click]. Final note: I don't see any reason to remove Bluer/Kate's b-crat powers or anything (I think I saw a little snip-it about this)- they've earned it and should keep it. If we need a new b-crat, then let Kryten/DTN/Neumannz have it.

Thank you.}}
{{EO|time=15:13, January 12, 2011 (UTC)|hooded=I personally think having another staff election is pointless. If you want to appoint a trusted user that wishes to stay here to watch over this Wiki as an admin/b-crat after we move, I really don't care, considering I'm planning on moving. I've all ready messaged DTN personally, saying that I plan to resume activity once we've moved to our new location. The only reason I have ceased consistent editing here is because the take-over by noobs and IP's has decreased my motivation. There is also the matter of school issues that keep me occupied, but just because I don't edit here daily any longer does not mean you can automatically assume I'm inactive. Once the move is completed, I shall be back doing the usual amount of editing.

'''EDIT: 15:23, January 12, 2011 (UTC) PLEASE NOTE THAT AT OUR NEW LOCATION, I'LL POTENTIALLY BE CHANGING MY USER NAME!!!'''}}
{{Auror Andrachome|happy=Now, let's see what Auror's going to say. Ninja and myself have '''never''' seen eye to eye. That's probably my fault. I pushed and I pushed, but, she wouldn't budge. As DTN said, it's long overdue that Ninja's been passed over for other users, as with LapisScarab as well. They have both been good users, and I believe they'll be even better moderators. Ninja may lose her temper, and naming of users, like "Sir DTN", is annoying to me, but, she's a good user, and so is LapisScarab. I have no comment on the promotion of [[User:LevL|LevL]].

The removal of mods, or admins is another thing. We should just remove their rights, and, if they come back, they'll be given them back. I say remove them, so, they won't appear in the list of admins that users occasionally go to for help. They'll message inactive admins, and they'll never get an answer. That's just my back-up plan. They do that on MySims Wiki, and it seems to be working for them fine.}}
{{DTN|time=02:12, January 13, 2011 (UTC)|text=...you're kidding, right? [[w:c:finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion|You obviously did not read the forum I linked to, Auror.]] (1) As already stated in the aforementioned thread off-wiki, that just makes more trouble for the bureaucrat, neither of which are exactly "easy" to contact quickly at this moment. (2) They'll message inactive admins, will they? Right, of course they will. ''Definitely not''; I mean, if I was an anon, the FIRST place I would look in the admin listing is the "INACTIVE" SECTION. Seriously, that's not an issue at all, I'm not sure how you perceived that. <!--We've also learned in the past that MySims Wiki isn't the most... cooperative. See "Amy Cotton.-->

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Also, if anyone changes usernames as ENX is choosing to (possibly) do, two things as well. (1) Be aware that we cannot transfer edit counts between accounts; you will restart at 0. (2) If you are a staffer, there is no purpose in you having two accounts with special user rights, so one will have to be de-staff'd. (UP FOR PRIVATE DISCUSSION WITH ME PERSONALLY.)
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Nextly, it seems that most of us are fine with the addition of one or two of the moderators. Obviously, some of us are disagreeing on the awesomeness of LapisScarab's section writing, LevL's super-gnoming, and NinjaSheik's reverting/all-around experience, the latter of which applies to all three of these. Since another of our mods, Xion4ever, has chosen to be labeled as inactive due to real life situations, this only opens up another spot. Honestly, this just makes it more justifiable to promote more users to mods, so I don't see why this is not ''another'' reason to select all three of these users as mods.

Also, please do not feel like regular user opinion does not matter. That is not true in the slightest, SilverCrono and... other user(s). Granted, most of our staff members have more experience with the politics and gnoming that run a wiki, but this place is a dead tumbleweed without its community supporting it, ESPECIALLY in decisions. For example, the SEIWA has been a discussion largely fueled by the non-staff community. The result is that most of those notes on the revote forum are ideas of the community not just things the admins come up with.

... also, moving away in eleven days, hooray! So let's get this rollin', because we don't even have two more weeks to wait.}}
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}
+{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}
+{{Sticky}}
 <!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
 {{DTN|time=07:02, January 9, 2011 (UTC)|text=After discussing this point with a fellow administator via IRC, it has come to my attention that a plethora of our "active" staff are not active ''at all''. Just as we did several months ago, I feel that it is time to label additional administrators and moderators as retired editors--again, nobody will lose their user rights or position, but will merely be moved off of the active staff panel.
@@ Line 46: / Line 47: @@
 Bluerfn, ENX, and, to an extent, Ultima fall into the same category as LevL from what I remember. I've seen them around, just not as frequently as normal. I don't know if I'd call them completely inactive. EDIT: Huh, Bluer was less active recently than I thought.}}
 {{LA|Vtext=Doorsey, instead of pasting it, you could link it. I'd love to read it.}}
-: [[finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion#Discussion about Inactive Staff|Here you go.]] --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 08:14, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
+: [[w:c:finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion#Discussion about Inactive Staff|Here you go.]] --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 08:14, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
 {{KrytenKoro|For reference:
 *Bluerfn: Last edit 2 Jan, last article edit 3 Oct, last staff edit 9 Oct.
@@ Line 209: / Line 210: @@
 The removal of mods, or admins is another thing. We should just remove their rights, and, if they come back, they'll be given them back. I say remove them, so, they won't appear in the list of admins that users occasionally go to for help. They'll message inactive admins, and they'll never get an answer. That's just my back-up plan. They do that on MySims Wiki, and it seems to be working for them fine.}}
-{{DTN|time=02:12, January 13, 2011 (UTC)|text=...you're kidding, right? [[finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion|You obviously did not read the forum I linked to, Auror.]] (1) As already stated in the aforementioned thread off-wiki, that just makes more trouble for the bureaucrat, neither of which are exactly "easy" to contact quickly at this moment. (2) They'll message inactive admins, will they? Right, of course they will. ''Definitely not''; I mean, if I was an anon, the FIRST place I would look in the admin listing is the "INACTIVE" SECTION. Seriously, that's not an issue at all, I'm not sure how you perceived that. <!--We've also learned in the past that MySims Wiki isn't the most... cooperative. See "Amy Cotton.-->
+{{DTN|time=02:12, January 13, 2011 (UTC)|text=...you're kidding, right? [[w:c:finalfantasy:Forum:Staff Discussion|You obviously did not read the forum I linked to, Auror.]] (1) As already stated in the aforementioned thread off-wiki, that just makes more trouble for the bureaucrat, neither of which are exactly "easy" to contact quickly at this moment. (2) They'll message inactive admins, will they? Right, of course they will. ''Definitely not''; I mean, if I was an anon, the FIRST place I would look in the admin listing is the "INACTIVE" SECTION. Seriously, that's not an issue at all, I'm not sure how you perceived that. <!--We've also learned in the past that MySims Wiki isn't the most... cooperative. See "Amy Cotton.-->
 <!--
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 ... also, moving away in eleven days, hooray! So let's get this rollin', because we don't even have two more weeks to wait.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|Wikia is able to change usernames without it simply being "sign up for a different name", so I assume that the DB should be able to handle it.}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''@DTN [[User_talk:Scottch#Italian_Version|It's]] [[User_talk:XienZo#Good_enough?|happened]] [[User_talk:XienZo#Hi there|before]]...'''}}
-{{Organization 13|text=<small>I feel really out of place with all the big long comments so I'm just gonna say that I agree that NinjaSheik, Lapis and LevL should be mods.</small>}}
-{{Dan da Man36|time=08:59, January 16, 2011 (UTC)|happy=Still a bit bus-lagged from my journey home, so I'm keeping this short.
-*LapisScarab: '''Yes'''. He's an awesome, friendly, efficient, and highly intelligent and literate user. The work he's done on Design, Etymology, and many other article sections is absolutely amazing.
-*LevL: '''Yes'''. A really friendly user, he gets on with work that no-one else wants to bother to do. The best WikiGnome I've ever seen, I strongly agree that he should be appointed Moderator rights.
-*NinjaSheik: '''Yes'''. Her vandal-battling skills are second to none. Everyone loses their temper at times, but NinjaSheik has never lost her head completely. I really think she deserves Modship.
-So, it's a resounding "Yes" from me on the subject of appointing these three fantastic users as Moderators.}}
-{{TNE|time=22:26, January 16, 2011 (UTC)|attntext=I have come across all three users - Dan has already addressed what I wanted to say. All three get my vote. ^_^
-Just to add on to what he said, NinjaSheik has been here reverting and blocking and contributing large chunks ever since mid-2009, and these contribs are the ones I remember till today.}}
-{{GS|time=18:56, January 19, 2011 (UTC)|text=With all of the previously anticipated games having been released, I just sort of lost my enthusiasm to make edits here.  I don't doubt that with the new announcements and information pouring in recently that my activity here will increase, however, it's understandable if the community decides to put me into retirement.  While I do find the administrator rights handy, the main thing I'm happy about is how much the wiki has grown since I first started making my edits here.  It's really good to have seen it improve as much as it has and I have full faith in the community to make the right decisions.
-So do with my admin status as you all see fit, and even if I am put into retirement, it can always change again in the future I'm sure.
-As for the nominated moderators, I approve of them all and I'm sure they'd do an excellent job.}}
-{{BebopKate|time=04:38, January 20, 2011 (UTC)|text=Hey guys.  I see we're back in staff selection mode.
-I apologize because what I thought was going to a month-or-so long break has turned out to be much longer than I anticipated.  And alas, it's still not over yet.  That pesky real life thing has hit me ''hard''.  When only you are around to support yourself financially and mentally, it kind of takes a priority.
-More mods and staff?  By all means.  If you think we need a retired/inactive list, that's also fine.  I know Bluer's been much more available than myself lately, but if another active bureaucrat is needed, then it should be done.
-I'm honestly not going to get any heartburn over taking a retired status, truth be told.  The last couple of months have made me force to get my priorities in order, and unfortunately, a wiki about one of my favorite games has fallen to the bottom of the list amid concerns about family, friends, and health.  And so it shall remain, alas, for the time being.
-I wish you guys luck with the move, and hope things go as smoothly as possible.  Perhaps one day when things calm down, I'll be able to return on a more frequent basis.}}
-{{The Dark Master|time=--[[User:The Dark Master|The Dark Master]] 16:22, January 21, 2011 (UTC)|text=So shall we make Sheik,Lapis and Lev moderators.Sheik is a good user who tries her best to keep info safe from vandals,Lapis is a good editor and one of my greatest rivals on the wiki and Lev is good at editing here.}}
-{{Chitalian8|time=03:32, February 3, 2011 (UTC)|talk= Yeah, so... how much longer shall we wait 'till we give them mod rights? Are we waiting until we move to KHDB, or what?}}