Editing Forum:KHW Twitter ?

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{TNE|time=05:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=So Bluerfn and I were discussing on Twitter after all the excitement and the #KH hashtags, and we came up with this crazy idea of starting a KHW Twitter page.

But I'm hesitating because I need '''''your feedback''''' on lots of things.

#The Twitter page. Should we even have one ?
#If we are gonna have one, is it going to be solely for KHW or should KHFR and KHES join in too ?
#Regardless of whom it belongs to, who should handle the Twitter page ? Should there be a committee, or should the Staff handle it, or what ?

Note that :
#The page can't be handled alone. Design issues, I can handle. Someone's gotta handle the outpouring of information. Given the info passed to me on KHDestiny.fr, I can handle KHD. But for other sources, there needs to be a number of people. And someone has to do the tweeting !
#Time zones are to be discussed.
#Activity is not an issue despite there being limited information, because we can always tweet about wiki-related stuff, pages to help, whatnot.

What we will be tweeting about :

#Feeds from other sites. Notable ones include KHInsider, GameInformer, KHDestiny, whatever else we can find which contains good official stuff.
#Game, video, OST and whatever releases related to KH.
#New LPs.
#Featured Articles, Media, Users, cleanups and all homepage-related things.
#Calling users for help.
#Featuring users' works and KH-related stuff that we find rather amusing (or heart-wrenching, whatever).
#If we have users fluent in Japanese, WE NEED YOU ! We'll try to tweet stuff from Nomura's KH blog, Message from the Kingdom as well. That's the place where all the official info comes FIRST HAND ! There's also KH's official Twitter page, so we follow that too.
#Asking users for feedback.
#Forum posts of major importance, or in KHFR's case, discussions of major importance.
#New functions.
#Competitions, if any.
#Celebrations, if any.

Is there anything else I might've left out ? Regardless, I'd like your feedback on this, please. ^_^ }}
==Feedback==


{{Maggosh|nathan=I like this idea. I think it should be followed through. Novel idea, troisnyx! ^_^}}
{{Bluer|05:55, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|Yes, provided we have users with Twitter and can attract editors through our tweets.}}

{{iZerox|time=06:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|happy=I think it's a great idea. Though I don't have a twitter myself so I doubt I'll be much help here.}}

{{Uxie|time=06:19, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Es una buena idea, TNE! I like it! We should get this wiki it's own Twitter account. (Y sí, las versiones españolas y francesas pueden compartirla así!)

EDIT: It can be a great idea to gaing more hep and such. TNE, I thank you for the idea!}}
{{SC|text=This looks cool. Let me know if I can do anything.}}

{{Pea14733|time=11:10, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|cure=That's cool! *pops his Party Popper* we have a FB page and now we have a Twitter! :D}}

{{GrandPyromania|time=11:24, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=As I told you on Twitter already, I say it's a great idea!}}

{{R&D|time=12:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|yes=''C'est magnifique!''. This would actually be a good reason for me to start Tweeting (altough, due to my parents constant fear of the internet dangers, I'll have to create a twitter that keep my anonymosity. It's no problem at all.)... And maybe I could see with Xabryn, if he wants the portuguese Wiki to be part of it too... <small>not that I edit there much</small>
EDIT: I just made a Twitter for the sake of this: [http://twitter.com/Diabolic_Seraph/statuses/23239337069 Diabolic_Seraph] AGAIN WITH PARADOX AND DUALISM!}}

{{unbirthtalk|text=Why not, it would be useful for informations and help to expand each wiki's influence. I don't know much about Tweeter, I don't have one, but I can handle writing some french texts (or translating english ones into french).}}
{{LevL|time=13:26, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I really like this idea.}}

{{Uxie|time=13:35, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I have informed the Spanish wiki. They have not got back to me, yet.}}

{{Xabryn|time=13:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=It is a great idea Trois, I probably won't be much of a help since I don't have a Twitter}}

{{ShardofTruth|time=13:58, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I don't tweet myself and use Twitter only in some rare cases but I still think that's a good idea.
I'm also fine if KHW, KHFR and KHES share one account, because most of the news (especially if they are coming from a Japanese source) affect them all. Most tweets are short and concise, therefore only a very small group of members is needed to write them, because larger committees result in more and longer discussions about the tweet.}}

A capital idea. However, due to the wishes of my parents, I don't go on facebook or twitter, so count me out on this one. {{KKDSig|1}}

I'd have to agree with KKD. I don't like the idea...My friend has Facebook stalkers...(shudders)...so I don't have a Facebook or a Twitter. So I say no...--http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/lab00m/ek-punch-mickey-iconCustom.jpg [[User:AxelLivesOn|<sup><font face="comic sans ms" color="black" size=5>Axel</font face></sup>]] [[User talk:AxelLivesOn|<font face="comic sans ms" color="gray" size=4>Lives</font face>]] [[Special:Contributions/AxelLivesOn|<sub><font face="comic sans ms" color="black" size=5>On</font face></sub>]] http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/lab00m/ek-punch-mickey-iconCustom.jpg 15:09, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

{{No.i|time=15:18, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=It sounds like a good idea to me. I don't have a twitter so I can't help but more power to you.}}
{{TNE|time=15:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Another thing I forgot to mention : if we create a Twitter account, we are not tweeting as an individual. We are tweeting as the Kingdom Hearts Wiki Network. Which means there is no literal stalking, really. We're going to have more than one person handle the account, so it's just like people following feed from Square Enix or a similar organisation. Stalking is not an issue. Flaming is, though, but it happens everywhere (even here).}}
{{neumannz|time=15:31, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Well, I've never used Twitter myself, but this sounds like a pretty cool idea, so I say go for it.}}
{{Randomnessity|garland=Well, I dislike Twitter myself, but I won't be the one using it, so it's all good.}}
{{ErryTalk|text=I think it's great idea, I've personally used Twitter before and I'm good with it.}}
{{Chitalian8|time=18:46, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text= I think it is a great idea, but we need enough people that have Twitters. Looking at past comments, I can see that many people do not have Twitters, myself included.}}
==Provisory page ideas==
{{TNE|time=15:36, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Largely positive response thus far, thanks to all who gave feedback, positive or otherwise. ^_^

Now, this is what I currently have in mind, and I need feedback for this as well.

#Our username will be '''wikia-kingdomhearts''' (if there are enough characters). If not, we might have to consider shortening the username. (EDIT 15:42, September 7, 2010 (UTC) : '''wikia-kingdomhearts''' is too long, '''kingdomhearts''' is already taken. The username stops at "wikia-kingdomhe", so consider shortening to that amount of characters please.) (EDIT 15:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC) : Unbirth coined the name "KingdomHeartsWK", whilst GrandPyromania coined "KHWikia" ; thoughts ?) (EDIT 15:51, September 7, 2010 (UTC) : The current standing is '''KHWiki - 1, KHWikia - 1, KingdomHeartsWK - 2'''. Decide !)
#I have provisory background ideas on [http://oh-teh-noes.blogspot.com/2010/09/will-kingdom-hearts-wiki-get-twitter.html this page]. Bear in mind that the BGs can be changed to celebrate occasions, and I had ''Precious Stars in the Sky'', as well as BBS, in mind, when I created this thing.
#Page colours will come accordingly.
#We need to select a few people in charge of their respective departments. Whatever info can be found. Staff and regulars who wish to help, please tell me where you are able to help. If you can speak Japanese, it's a plus.}}
{{R&D|time=15:47, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|yes=I would love to help. But I don't know how exactly (Since I speak nothing of Japanese and my abilities to find info a scarce). Plus... wouldn't KHWiki be better as a username?
You already know my opinion about the BG: Maybe a dark blue... or that weird pink color the hearts have. Or  black, filled with white sparks.
EDIT15:51, September 7, 2010 (UTC): ''KingdomHeartsWK'' is nice too, but I think that the shorter, the simpler, is better.}}
{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 15:59, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=KHWikia sounds better then KingdomHeartsWK. BTW great idea, I will be sure to follow and try to help as much as possible if I can that is. }}
{{ZACH|text=I want to help with as much as i can don't know what but i will try to help also i think KHWiki or KHWikia is good.}}
{{Bluer|16:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|I always liked KHWiki, particularly to make it sound like we're the ONLY kingdom hearts wiki out there, not just in Wikia.}}

{{Pea14733|time=16:03, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|aero= I vote for KHWiki. 
And I can read only Katakana and Hiragana in Japanese. <br>
Also, it'd be great if we change the theme to fit ''every'' game. Like, this month is BbS and next month will be Re:coded (?) }}
{{TNE|time=16:04, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Good idea, Pea. KHWiki it is. I shall upload the provisory background until I find a substitute.}}
{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 16:07, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Great! You gotta give us the link when its ready! }}
{{TNE|time=16:09, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=I will.

EDIT 16:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC) :




<center><big><big>Presenting [http://twitter.com/KHWiki <font color="gold">Kingdom Hearts Wiki's Twitter Page !</font></big></big></center>





Thoughts ?}}
{{R&D|time=16:18, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|happy=Amazing! Liked the avatar! How will the management work? Everyone helping will have access to the password?

You know... seeing the Black BG there... it's not that bad. I like it for some reason.}}
{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 16:24, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Love the avvie! Followed and tweeted my followers that are KH fans to follow. }}
{{Pea14733|time=16:26, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|cure= Like it. :D}}
{{TNE|time=16:30, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=First, let us determine who does what. And then we'll hand over the username and password and login details.}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=16:34, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|retro=I'm a little late, it seems... Looks awesome! =D}}
{{TNE|time=16:40, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|remerciement=Merci ! Would you like to chip in ?}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=16:51, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|retro=Sure, I'll give it a shot. Might need some time to get used to Twitter first, though. =P}}
{{TNE|time=16:57, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=If anyone needs any help whatsoever in tweeting, RTing, creating lists, following and whatnot, I'm here to receive your questions.}}

==Panel discussion==
{{TNE|time=16:30, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Unbirth and I can handle KHFR-related stuff. I can handle user content and whatever else gets in my way. We need people to handle the newsfeeds, official info, wiki info, uploads, fave pictures, walkthroughs, LPs, whatever floats our boat.

So, please gather together, elect a panel. Staff and regulars are invited. ^_^

Kindly edit the page for login details. Also, please tell me who among you would like to join in the project.<!--The username is KHWiki, the password is Kingudamu123-->}}
{{R&D|time=16:37, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|isee=What wiki info would be? If it is what I think it is maybe I could help...}}
{{TNE|time=16:40, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Projects, stubs, FAs, FUs, FMedia, hot forum topics, stuff that goes into the Trinity Rept, Mirage Arena, new developments, whatnot.}}
Hmmm... with that I could gladly help! ^_^{{User:Redeemer & Destroyer/Sig}}16:43, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
:Also, can someone please login now ? In 15mn I'll be signing out (as TroisNyxEtienne), and I need someone to tend to KHW's Twitter at least for the KHW bit. I'll handle KHFR at about the time I usually log in at night. {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 16:46, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

{{GrandPyromania|time=16:47, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Depending on what you mean by the LPs, I can handle that part. Like if it's to inform everyone following, that a new episode of Kingdom Hearts is now up, then of course I can tweet that, as I do normally on my twitter.}}
{{TNE|time=16:53, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Okay, if you're notifying from your page, then KHW will have to RT (retweet) ''your'' entry. After all, it's your LP. We're sort of a broadcaster, and the only bits of first-hand information coming from us are wiki-related. That means newsfeeds are all RT'ed. Unless we come across them before anyone else.}}
{{LevL|time=17:14, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I think I can help as well.}} 

{{MelodiousNature|time=20:13, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I really like this twitter idea, it's quite revolutionary!}}
{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 20:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Me (and perhaps Falco) can handle the written walktrough part since we are the ones writing them (at the moment). }}
{{Hangon|time=7:13|text=Hey TNE what's up, and thanks for inviting me here.( Sorry I'm off so much)}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''<s>Oh my... it seems I'm late for tea...</s>  Sorry I wasn't here sooner, you know, school, work. etc.  Anyway, I would love to help out.  I'm not sure with what, though.  Possibly Featured User?  Something else?  My Japanese is almost completely faded from memory, so I can't help there.  Seriously though.  If anybody wants me to do something particular, I'll try my best.'''}}
{{TNE|time=01:30, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=@Hangon : Please read the entire thing.

@Inexistent : By all means ! ^_^ Join in !}}
{{DTN|time=02:47, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=I have no problem with a KHWiki Twitter. T'was an awesome idea, Troisnyxetienne. What I do have a problem with is who it is in the hands of right now. Just by looking through the recent tweets, I am seeing very odd and unformal tweets that are being posted in rapid succession, which doesn't exactly reflect an organized wiki well. I would strongly suggest putting only the KHWiki staff, or even just the admins, since we have plenty of admins, some of which who are familiar with <s>Twattering</s> Twitter. Mentioning the "wrath of MX", "BOO RAY", "DTN's weird obsession" (which quite frankly shouldn't have been posted), "Yyyyyeeeeeehhhhh :D", and 20+ YouTube links spammed on the channel. All of this is absolutely unnecesary. Really guys, it should be '''''common sense''''' to not use memes and emoticons on the KHWiki's Twitter account.

You know what, let's just go with staffers/admins, it should be pretty clear that this is the way to go.}}
{{Maggosh|detroit=You're just upset that Room Core is losing.}}
{{DTN|time=02:56, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=<!--I am extremely disappointed that I am once again having to adivse a moderator on disciple. This is absolutley ridicuous--no, pathetic almost.-->

Maggosh, your strawmanning and off-topic dicussion is unnecessary and uncalled for. Quite frankly, I'm not personally affected by that post, because a) I'm just going to nominate Room Core another month if it loses, and b) whether the image is winning or losing, having a post say that one of the admins has a weird obsessions is not polite, nor it is acceptable behavior to post about one user from another without direct permission from the editor being spoken of.

Please keep your messages on-topic, or I will not resist protecting this page so that only admins can edit so, preventing irrelevant chat from taking place like yours. Either leave an actual opinion, or don't even bother clicked "Edit this page". This applies to everyone. I promise, it really is that simple, all it takes is the ability to restrain yourself from making a fool of yourself on a very serious forum.}}

Okay, if you bothered to check the "Spammed" Youtube links, you'd notice they led to GrandPyromania's Let's Play! Kingdom Hearts II. And about pretty much everything else: Does it hurt when you do something fun? Honestly, it's the INTERNET. Nothing is taken seriously.  {{KKDSig|1}}
:I am well aware of what those spammed links lead to, KKD, but it was completely redundant to spam twenty links in less than a few hours. Was it so difficult to just link to the channel instead? No, not it is was not, this just shows carelessness from the users currently in charge of it. And I enjoy fun, but fun doesn't need to make the wiki seem improper. Is it so wrong to ask for the posts to be less "LOL BBS IS OUT NOW, GO PLAY IT! :DDDDDDDDDD OH, AND DTN IS OBSEESSED WITH ROOM CORE." and a bit more like "The long-awaited Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep is now released in North America; enjoy it! Also, remember to vote for your October Featured Media, a heated battle between the Room Core and Symphony Master!"?

:I think I'll let you answer that one. I rest my case. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 03:05, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
{{TNE|time=04:54, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=Fair enough. Spoil the fun for us. Or don't even try getting into the fun. Come ''on'', even KHDestiny writes like we do half the time. Which would be more accepted by the followers ? Are we trying to get closer to our followers, or are we creating a divide ? Basic PR actually ''states'' that we're not supposed to create divides between us and the people spoken to. This having been said, there has to be a level drawn. Whilst we're a site on Kingdom Hearts, our priority is to gather potential editors and fans alike, and so a great deal of friendship with these people is not merely desirable ; it is ''needed''.

And to those who were going against these lines, truly sorry for bursting your bubble, but the people themselves have spoken. So far I have had three people handle the channel and it's going rather smoothly. Let us all do it in our stride. There are different people handling the channel. We appeal to different crowds. Let us stay that way !}}
::For ''Kingdom Hearts'''s sake, Troisnyxetienne, I'm not saying "This is my opinion, and it is how we are going to do it exactly. None of you have any say in this, I am Emperor Doorsey." I welcome challenges in debate; see KKD's comment for example (I think maggosh may have ''attempted'' to do something similar.), I accepted his different opinion and explain why I disagreed. More to the point, Troisnyxetienne, the entire point of the Twitter is not to just make jokes and turn each post into something stylized similarly to a pre-teen's Facebook stati, but to be able to inform followers of events. Essentially, it's like a Watchlist in Twitter incarnation. But hey, you handle the social and fan aspects of the wiki more than I do, so if you want to represent KHWiki this way, go ahead. You'll have no one stopping you. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 05:00, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
{{TNE|time=05:05, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=Only time will tell. But I'm not the only one having access to KHW's tweets, so you're most welcome to join the bandwagon.}}
{{Bluer|05:08, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|KHWiki Twitter is doing a good job so far. I appreciate the good efforts and constructive opinions for it.}}
{{FinalMix|vanitas=I think it's a great idea even though I don't use Twitter.}}
==Schedule==
{{TNE|time=10:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=So far about five people (I think ?) have expressed their interest in becoming KHW's Twitter announcers. Now, we need to divide our time according to slots. In 24 hours, how many slots do we do ?}}
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 {{ErryTalk|text=I think it's great idea, I've personally used Twitter before and I'm good with it.}}
 {{Chitalian8|time=18:46, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text= I think it is a great idea, but we need enough people that have Twitters. Looking at past comments, I can see that many people do not have Twitters, myself included.}}
-{{VoidCommanderExdeath|time=22:04, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=You have my approval.}}
-{{17m|time=17:36, September 21, 2010 (UTC)|text= Great idea! I have a Twitter account, so you can let me know if I can be of assistance}}
 ==Provisory page ideas==
 {{TNE|time=15:36, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Largely positive response thus far, thanks to all who gave feedback, positive or otherwise. ^_^
@@ Line 165: / Line 162: @@
 {{Bluer|05:08, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|KHWiki Twitter is doing a good job so far. I appreciate the good efforts and constructive opinions for it.}}
 {{FinalMix|vanitas=I think it's a great idea even though I don't use Twitter.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|I have to agree with DTN somewhat here. At least in my experience, the only thing on twitter that ever caught my attention was Derrick J. Wyatt's feed, where every post is a portrait of his love for Transformers, but none of them are written as...well, as a child. It's totally possible for us to be whimsical and engaging when writing these, without (1) humiliating ourselves, (2) making fun of other editors (seriously, guys?), (3) spamming (I'm absolutely not going to follow the KHW twitter if it's going to be spamming. I'll remove anyone related to it from my followed list, too).
-No, I absolutely do not think that this is something only the admins should handle. It has no bearing on the mechanics of the wiki, and neither its success nor its failure will damage the wiki itself. However, if it's going to represent us, I think that the community as a whole should have a place where they can say "I think this needs to change about how/who is running the twitter". Being a symbol of the wiki should be something that is a measure of trust, and should be removed if one is a disgrace.}}
-For those who are worried, now we have taken a more professional approach. The first day was a test day only. {{User:Redeemer & Destroyer/Sig}}01:30, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
-{{17m|time=17:41, September 21, 2010 (UTC)|text= I have a suggestion, if the admins tend to log in from their laptop/PC, they can download TweetDeck, the application has the ability to swap between two accounts in almost an instant}}
 ==Schedule==
 {{TNE|time=10:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=So far about five people (I think ?) have expressed their interest in becoming KHW's Twitter announcers. Now, we need to divide our time according to slots. In 24 hours, how many slots do we do ?}}
-{{KrytenKoro|I think one every 6 hours would be reasonable, more or less depending on what the situation is.}}
-{{R&D|time=12:57, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=I can stay at the 5:00 pm UTC 0 until 11:00pm UTC 0 (I think the time is right... not sure though)... But not on Tuesdays and Thursdays.}}
-{{TNE|time=13:23, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm leaving the 12:00 - 3:00 UTC (afternoon) slot to Unbirth, or me (if he's not around). Note that this will change once I go to Herts.}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''I will be on after five, I should think.  I'm not sure how much time I will have, though, but I promise not to spam or indulge in mocking other user's room core fetishes...'''}}
-{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 15:29, September 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=Hehehe, anyway I don't suppose me or Falco will be handling written walktrough tweets huh? Besides we are not gonna keep on making pages until in about 3 weeks when we are both able too. }}
-{{DTN|time=01:54, September 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Eh, I think that it isn't really necessary to mandate everyone to a schedule. I mean, I would rather just post whenever I'm available to. I wouldn't want to be limited to something like 3 PM - 9 PM.}}
-{{Hangon|time=3:09 Sep.10 Fri.|text=O.K. I read through everything and I have to go now (AGAIN!!!!) laters:(}}
-{{BebopKate|time=19:48, September 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't tweet...twitter...whatever.  I leave that to my birds.
-You guys have fun with this one. ^_^}}
-{{TNE|time=09:15, September 12, 2010 (UTC)|happytext=Awwwwwh ! *summons all the other KHW users to flap their wings around BK*}}
-{{Xelias|time=09:15, September 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=Je dois dire que je suis d'accord avec BebopKate. Je ne connais pas Twitter, et la seule chose à laquelle ça me fait penser est une bande d'oiseaux...}}
-{{TNE|time=10:41, September 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=Je comprends ^_^}}
-{{Xion4ever|time=14:53, October 5, 2010 (UTC)|text=Like Kate, I don't use Twitter..Sorry guys! However, I'm all up for the idea. Have we thought of a Facebook/MySpace group? I don't use MySpace, but I know some of our editors do..If need be, we could create a Kingdom Hearts Wiki group on there as well...Just a suggestion. Do whatever you guys see fit, as my life is crazy right now what with Junior year, AP/Honors courses, extra band activties, and the rest.}}
-{{TNE|time=07:13, 16 February 2011 (EST)|text=There is an FB group, and now what we need is for our YT, Twitter and FB pages to run smoothly. Who's running which now ? I know I'm running Twitter at the moment.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|The "journalists" should be listed on the Staff page too, even if they don't have staff positions on the wiki.}}