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| {{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}} | | {{Forumheader|The World that Never was}} |
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| {{LA|Vtext=I agree with pretty much everything, except for the whole disowning the channel bit. Getting rid of the IRC would be a very hypocritical move, as we pretty much cheer on the use of it and not User Space for conversations. It isn't the channel's fault, it's the channeleers. Ninja, sensitivity may be hard to retain, but letting it out through anger is pretty much smashing everything '''assuming good faith''' stands for. Like everything that has rules, as soon as any user enters the IRC, they are agreeing to follow them. That is always how it is universally. If users have dropped to a going so low as to just breaking them, and the users in charge OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER do barely anything to stop it, we have a serious problem on our hands. | | {{LA|Vtext=I agree with pretty much everything, except for the whole disowning the channel bit. Getting rid of the IRC would be a very hypocritical move, as we pretty much cheer on the use of it and not User Space for conversations. It isn't the channel's fault, it's the channeleers. Ninja, sensitivity may be hard to retain, but letting it out through anger is pretty much smashing everything '''assuming good faith''' stands for. Like everything that has rules, as soon as any user enters the IRC, they are agreeing to follow them. That is always how it is universally. If users have dropped to a going so low as to just breaking them, and the users in charge OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER do barely anything to stop it, we have a serious problem on our hands. |
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| I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I ''wasn't an op'', by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing [[KHWiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech]] to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? '''Everyone''' should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, ''especially'', as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing. | | I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I ''wasn't an op'', by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech]] to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? '''Everyone''' should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, ''especially'', as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing. |
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| Everything that we have tried to work for on the IRC has pretty much been destroyed, as well as DTN's aforementioned speech on us not needing ops. Let's face it. It is iminant. | | Everything that we have tried to work for on the IRC has pretty much been destroyed, as well as DTN's aforementioned speech on us not needing ops. Let's face it. It is iminant. |
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| I remember when I first came onto #wikia-kingdomhearts; a much smaller community had settled there, and the chat was light and peaceful. That is nothing like what we have now. In fact, we have the exact opposite of what I stated in that first statement. The community is large at all times, and the chat is very often spam-like, nonsense-filled, and breaks out into arguments. The problem, though, ''is not'' a larger community on the channel. The problem is that, as I have said time and time again in those four other IRC forum threads and beyond, '''''the community has absolutely no universal regard for the rules and regulations they have agreed to follow.''''' We can have the best of both worlds; we can have a large community, and peaceful chat that is still enjoyable for everyone. That doesn't at all require any of the language, arguments, or nonsense that we use on the IRC currently. | | I remember when I first came onto #wikia-kingdomhearts; a much smaller community had settled there, and the chat was light and peaceful. That is nothing like what we have now. In fact, we have the exact opposite of what I stated in that first statement. The community is large at all times, and the chat is very often spam-like, nonsense-filled, and breaks out into arguments. The problem, though, ''is not'' a larger community on the channel. The problem is that, as I have said time and time again in those four other IRC forum threads and beyond, '''''the community has absolutely no universal regard for the rules and regulations they have agreed to follow.''''' We can have the best of both worlds; we can have a large community, and peaceful chat that is still enjoyable for everyone. That doesn't at all require any of the language, arguments, or nonsense that we use on the IRC currently. |
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| From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech [[KHWiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|here]] on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator. | | From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|here]] on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator. |
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| I completely agree with what has been stated by BebopKate. | | I completely agree with what has been stated by BebopKate. |
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| {{NinjaSheik|text=Yes, I know. We're just going to keep going around in circles, if nothing is done soon. We need a conculsion sooner or later.}} | | {{NinjaSheik|text=Yes, I know. We're just going to keep going around in circles, if nothing is done soon. We need a conculsion sooner or later.}} |
| {{LA|Vtext=<big>'''I wholeheartedly agree.'''</big>}} | | {{LA|Vtext=<big>'''I wholeheartedly agree.'''</big>}} |
| (EC'd FOUR TIMES)Nothing's ever truly fixed by a vote... I like TNE's analogy. It explains what we need to do to a T. " What does KH teach most of the time where the protagonists are concerned ? Charity. Behave likewise and the IRC will be in perfect shape. You gotta admit that the IRC is experiencing growing pains, but it's too early to pass a judgement and say that it's time to erase the channel." That pretty much sums up what I think about this matter. We also need to re-think how we conduct ourselves. A lot. You can also add another dead body to the pile they'll need to step over to get rid of the IRC. Remember what we're all here for. One series of games. Kingdom Hearts, above all else, promotes kindness, compassion, and friendship. If anything's gonna change, we need to stop acting like Organization XIII, with everyone running their own agendas, not caring about anyone else. We need to be one community, not several. ''One sky, one destiny.'' Remember those words.{{KKDSig|1}}
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| SAME HERE ! I have been EC'd !
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| {{TNE|time=04:58, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's one step, and it only takes everyone to try do it, if not do it : if you're on the IRC for example, you'd try control yourself so that all that you show would be PG or G, and you'd pay attention to your language. If you still have the urge to go beyond that line, a ping would do fine. But not on the main channel. Because Kryten and I and a lot of others abstain from such things, if we have to eschew the argument that there are minors on the channel.}}
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| {{ZACH|mandrake=we have worked to hard to get rid of the irc now and if we are then add me to the list of dead bodies as i don't want to see the irc go down now we will just have the same reason that made the irc again if we get rid of it.}}
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| {{TNE|time=05:26, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=We're defending charity and good rapport '''to the death !''' Now if you want to be a naysayer, I shall only say that you are part of the problem. And with that, I give my firm advice to such people to leave the IRC.}}
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| {{LA|Vtext=Uh... TNE, ZACH was trying to say:
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| :''We've worked hard to get the IRC, and if we're going to delete it, you might as well add me to the list of bodies. I don't want to see the IRC go down now. We will just have to bring it back, because all the user talk edits will be clogging the mainspace.''
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| ...I think...
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| But I agree. If people are going to be a regular problem on the matter, I don't think they should ever come to the IRC.}}
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| {{Yuanchosaan|time=05:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
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| |text=Calm down, everyone. It's unlikely that the channel will be removed, and there are plenty of other channels out there.
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| ''"I think we'll need an op on throughout the time he/she is connected."''
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| It's possible to set automatic op'ing to the channel. I'd prefer that this path not be taken, though.
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| ''"Banhammer is used a bit lightly currently, and if necessary to get the point across, should be shown prominently as example."''
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| One of the problems is that each operator has different styles of moderating. I tend to be more light with the kickbanhammer, and prefer not to use op mode unless needed. Trois, from what I've seen so far, favours a more active approach. I'm not saying a unified approach is better, but we'd need to look at it if we want to alter our current policy.}}
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| {{Dan da Man36|time=08:34, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|lion=Just adding my thoughts here as an IRC regular; Removing the channel is not going to solve the problem. If the channel is closed, then IRC chat will be brought to the wiki. If this chat then continues on the wiki, then it's probably going to head down the same road as the IRC; growing in number then turning into possibly offensive spam. If and when this happens, what are we going to do? Well, from what I gather from forums such as [[Forum:User Talk Conversation|this]], the users spamming the talk space will be blocked and / or banned. Why wait for this to happen when we can stop it now? We need to implement a period of time, be it temporary or permanent, of strict rules and punishment on #wikia-kingdomhearts.
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| I know it will be tedious, but the combined op log that DTN suggested sounds like a very good idea. From recent observation, we all know that one op cannot catch everything another user does wrong. There is usually one operator present at most times of the day, and any trouble should be logged by them and shown to other operators. I know this would be a tough feat for you guys; you've done a great job at operating the channel so far, but a change of strategy is in order. I'd like to thank everyone that is willing to follow the rules, and I'd like to thank the operators for their hard work; so much effort has gone into #wikia-kingdomhearts, let's not let it go to waste.}}
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| Well folks, I've read all of this, and there's something I'd like to point out. IRC, is similar to a family. Almost everyday, the same users sign in, and sit. No one comes on to tell breaking news, or to ask difficult questions, or to even ask for help. We go on there, to just idly banter with our mates. In short, like all families, there's a few bad eggs, there's a few blacksheep, and there's a few troublemakers. We'll pull trough. When my server hosting goes through, the bot will be there 24/7 reporting EVERY curse word. I suggest mods ask for that log every once in a while. As for the fighting, I suspect like someone said, 'growing pains'. And I'd also like to note that Dan's above statement carries some weight. Dunno about you guys, but sounds like he's wording it like a kid who's trying to get away from bullies, a kid who's appealing to the bullies so they'll just leave him alone. To me, it sounds like Dan is trying his best to just keep things cool, so the channel doesn't get abolished. And I suspect that's how a lot of people are feeling. I'm wondering how many other people felt worried, or annoyed, or sad at DTN's comment about removing the channel. If it's more than 1, then that's plenty of reason to keep this thing around.
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| I suspect the only logical reason for removing this channel, would be to distort or abstract the associations made by it's users to the rest of the world. As in, to not have #wikia-kingdomhearts known as a breeding pit of trouble. However, if anyone is thinking that deleting the channel would solve the problem, it most certainly wouldn't.
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| That's just a programmer's look into it. Trying to be as logical as I can.
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| In short, no amount of mods, or rules, or strikes, or threats could fix this 'problem'. Our members are just going to have to grow up a bit. We can try our best, but in the end, we're not going to decide how this channel plays out. We need to either let it soar, or let it burn. [[User:Adola|Adola]] 09:41, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
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| {{TNE|time=11:14, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=@LegoAlchemist : I know. It wasn't directed at Zach.
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| @Yuanchosaan : I don't know, just that in light of what has happened of late, I thought of the active approach.
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| @Adola : It's definitely more than one ;-)
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| I'll do what I can - but remember that everyone must do his part.}}
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| {{DTN|time=17:21, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, I think I freaked a couple of you out, inadvertantly. What I am trying to say is: '''''if problems continue to arise and solutions continue to have little-to-no impact, we will likely consider shutting down the IRC Channel'''''. Right now, there are absolutely no formal plans to do so. Simply comply with the rules and regulations that have been put in place, and the channel's existance shouldn't be threatened at all. However, we know that right now, people are not following the rules, and as such, they are the users who making the channel more of a burden than it is a helpful chat room. I know a lot of you do not wnat this channel shut down, so you need to aid us in not sneaking behind the rules, not following them when a channel operator is not present, and leading by example.}}
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| {{MelodiousNature|time=19:26, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I've read all your comments, concerns and ideas and I want to apologize for not being on the IRC as often as I should have. I gave myself a break from the IRC thinking that it was left in capable hands. Which is was until now.
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| I think shutting down the IRC channel should of be done if we can't salvage the channel anymore, but right now we still have a chance. Adding new ops is a good idea seeing as we've got more to monitor now since last time we hired new ops. However, I think we should only delete ops if they repetively break our IRC rules.
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| If I had to suggest a solution I'd try to organise some sort of rota for ops? It's far-fetched but it could work.
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| If only there was a way to shut down the IRC after a certain time and re-open it again at another. We could arrange ops to monitor the IRC throughout. I really am pulling strings...
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| I'll be returning onto the IRC channel much more often now as we sort out this dilemma.
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| EDIT: I was just thinking could the IRC bot not kick/block people who use profanity? It won't solve the problem but it will help?}}
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| Heh, im not sure if I should or should not be surprised that this issue popped up again. After reading through a bit though, I think most could agree you do have two main choices resolving this issue(But i'm sure these are not all the choices):
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| 1. '''Try some new moderators.''' Maybe the problem lies within those who manage the chat channel, especially as seen within the evidence you have given. If you do decide to remove moderators from the IRC channel, not everyone has to be removed, but if they have to be, so be it. And when picking new moderators, take your time. Build trust. 'Test' their abilities of trust and review it after to see if they have proven themselves worthy. And over time, you'll start having a better chance at getting 'good' moderators to ensure order in the IRC channel. The only downside to this idea is that it may not work as intended, because of either moderators that turned out to be bad or for whatever similar reason.
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| 2. '''Scrap the channel completely.''' I remember suggesting something like this a while back when we had problems relating to the IRC chat, and maybe it is best that we just go back to having user page chats. Even if new moderators do come around to help with the chat, so what? Odds are, you are still going to get these threads regarding complaints about the IRC chat. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you may have to put reminders or similar objects from time to time about the chat, but odds are, with new moderators, the current trend we have will continue. The rules in the chat will continuously be violated by the public, and at best, the moderators will only be able to hold off the inevitable just a little longer and show more evidence to prove that its best for this chat to be scrapped.
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| I understand that the downside to this is that the edit log will be full of people typing in user:talk pages along with other things. Well, let me ask a simple question, "Can't you filter out the edit logs to not include such changes by default?" Don't get me wrong, you should still have the option to display changes to user:talk for whatever reason, but if the spam is going to be such an issue, why not filter it out? Just a thought in my head.
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| Overall, I thought that the idea of having a wiki chat channel would be a good idea, because you could talk about what you like/dislike about the KH series, talk about the wikia, have general chat, a good time, and so on, and so on. However, with the threads you see here, combined with how the internet community is and other things, we may be left with no choice but to scrap the channel, and it would be a shame to see the IRC channel go down like this. And sadly, I have a feeling in the end, this may happen. Unless...unless maybe something changes. Somehow, I have a feeling that if one thing were to be changed, things may be a bit better. But even then, I doubt it would make things better.--[[User:Pkthis|Pkthis]] 21:17, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
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| {{Maggosh|flint=Pk, we already have new moderators; ENX, myself, and ShardofTruth, and each of us have been given op abilities. This discussion is three months old, and the issue, in my opinion, has blown over. We have a better handle on the channel now, and outright scrapping it seems unlikely.}}
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