Editing Forum:Huge problems on the IRC

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{KrytenKoro|[http://freetexthost.com/4bb0551ymu This].

WHAT.

THE.

SMEG.


The part that galls me isn't that someone broke the rules, it's that the ops ganged up on the person that reported it, as per the rules which the ops pretend to follow.



Quite honestly, I'm disgusted with the ops who were present.



Between this and the lack of fixes to the bot, I think the wiki should disown the IRC thread. If the IRC and the people "running" it are going to continue to create a cesspool, I will fight against our wiki sponsoring it. 
}}
{{NinjaSheik|text=Wait, KrytenKoro. I know I'm a normal user here and all, but the thing is...Well, the only reason we gained the IRC Channel because of the many edits on talkpages that slows down the Recent Changes. If you're disgusted with the ops that are present, then perhaps new ops are in order.

If we take down the IRC Channel, everyone will start using their talkpages again and it will slow down the Recent Changes. Maybe the recent ops have outgrown their position and needs to step down. I suggest that we chose new ops to manage IRC. Ones that will not lose their temper and break the rules.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I'm not suggesting taking down the IRC. I'm suggesting that we remove all the notices telling our readers "Hey, we have an IRC, and here's the rules we follow to make sure everyone enjoys themselves!" if it's a filthy lie.}}
{{TNE|time=01:52, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=I advised Saph about the entire issue. The main issue here is fear, since the person involved is a KHW admin.

Now, I'm letting her off, because I'm sure she'll safeguard herself. But the whole point now is ''sensitivity''. We should be able to poke other users regarding this. If we can't, then there's no point of creating the channel.

It's PG-rated, and not only because there are kids : there are some who firmly abstain from all impure pleasures. Me included.

Now, I shall be e-mailing two of the admins the text that I have gathered as backing evidence to Kryten's link. Now, to sum it all up : ''every user should be able to warn, and every user, likewise, should be able to retain a decent bit of sensitivity.''}}
{{NinjaSheik|text=Sesitivity? That's kinda hard to retain, especially when angered.}}
{{LA|Vtext=I agree with pretty much everything, except for the whole disowning the channel bit. Getting rid of the IRC would be a very hypocritical move, as we pretty much cheer on the use of it and not User Space for conversations. It isn't the channel's fault, it's the channeleers. Ninja, sensitivity may be hard to retain, but letting it out through anger is pretty much smashing everything '''assuming good faith''' stands for. Like everything that has rules, as soon as any user enters the IRC, they are agreeing to follow them. That is always how it is universally. If users have dropped to a going so low as to just breaking them, and the users in charge OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER do barely anything to stop it, we have a serious problem on our hands.

I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I ''wasn't an op'', by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech]] to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? '''Everyone''' should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, ''especially'', as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing. 

Everything that we have tried to work for on the IRC has pretty much been destroyed, as well as DTN's aforementioned speech on us not needing ops. Let's face it. It is iminant.

I need say nothing more on the matter.<!--I think-->}}
{{TNE|time=02:54, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=So I sent the file to BK and Kryten.

@Kryten : Thoughts on the whole matter ?}}
{{BebopKate|time=03:30, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text= ''First and foremost:'' Based on that text, TroisNyx's reports, at least two previous texts I've read, heck, based on a message posted on ''my own talk page'' not yesterday, I see the need to remove at least one user from ops, if not from IRC.  Hexed has continued to flout the rules after warnings from many folks; he seems to think he is above them.  He could have easily created a new channel, invited interested chatters, and post whatever he pleased in there, as the PG rule is for the main room only.  Instead, he chose to remain in the main room and continue to taunt LegoAlchemist and other users, as well as post inappropriate links or language.  He has demonstrated on this and other occasions he is not mature enough to be an op.

There are a couple of other ops I think we need a close look at, but we'll worry about this later.

''Next:'' Warning system for all.  Can we trial run it for a week to see if it works?  I think this is one of those things we have to experiment to see how it goes.  I think the philosophy behind it is sound, but I want to see if it creates any issues.

The idea of IRC was to create a safe environment where all users could enjoy talking about stuff without having to clog up the wiki; those people creating IRC issues are now doing just that by causing users to complain on our talk pages and forcing us to create forum topics like this.  I've also wasted about twenty minutes of my free time dealing with this issue.  I, nor any other admin, want to come on this wiki and deal with this.  I think a lot more of us admin/ops are going to be cracking down on this in the future.  Consider this your warning.

I'm sure some folks wonder why I'm so keen on us remaining a PG-rated channel.  I'm also sure most of you are aware of the average age of our users.  Some posters have taken the attitude that "Kids & teens are going to see/do/say it anyway, so what's the harm?"  You'd be surprised...I could tell stories from my time as a teacher, both from my room and other teachers.  I won't tell them here, partially out of confidentiality, and partially because some are graphic enough I'd be breaking our own wiki rule (Irony, no?).  But I can say that while it might not be life-altering, damage can be done, and it's not fun to deal with.  

So here's the deal: if a user doesn't like the IRC rules, they certainly don't have to post there.  If they want to troll, swear, post crap, and so on, there are hundreds of thousands of channels and chatrooms across the internet you may choose to do so in.  But not in this one.}}
{{KrytenKoro|I agree with everything TNE and BK have posted.

I don't want us to make the IRC some fascist echo-chamber, but it simply can't be denied that we have some of our most frequent users both flouting and mocking the very basic rules we have. The rules are ''not'' arbitrary, and they ''do'' need to be enforced.}}

Guys, if rules are being broken, then use the ban-hammer.  Simple.  As.  That. 
If EVEN MORE mods are required, I suggest someone consider me.  I'm mod at #FFwiki, and in general, I'm a pretty decent mod.  [[User:Adola|Adola]] 10:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

{{LotsoBearLover|time=10:32, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm Kinda agree to Getting rid of some the current ops and trying some new ones...}}
{{Yuanchosaan|time=11:53, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
|text=Eradicating the notion that warnings are only important when given by ops would be helpful. Regular users are also responsible for their behaviour and the atmosphere in the channel, as well as educating newcomers about the rules of this channel. Perhaps they are unable to kick users, but there are certainly measures they can take, such as reporting offences and giving advice.

''"every user should be able to warn, and every user, likewise, should be able to retain a decent bit of sensitivity."''

This does, if I recall correctly, concur with the current IRC rules page. Flaming is not tolerated - or at least, it should not be. What constitutes flaming, however, varies from person to person, which I gather is part of the problem. The other issue is the double standard we have for old users and new. I doubt that behaviour such as Hexed's would be tolerated from a newcomer, but familiarity with him leads us to have greater tolerance for it as it's "just Hexed being Hexed". 

I am guilty of it. I'm sure there are others who treat it as simply an elaborate in-joke. This would be acceptable in most channels, but we've taken it upon ourselves to make this channel PG, and thus have added responsibility. I'm not overly impressed by the "think of the children" defence; what strikes me as important is ensuring that visitors to the channel enjoy their time there. Rather than censoring profanities simply because they are profanities, I would prefer to concentrate on preventing and (if there is no other alternative) punishing inappropriate behaviour ''when it causes offence to others''.

''"[Hexed] has demonstrated on this and other occasions he is not mature enough to be an op."''

Hexed's op rights were removed several months ago. The current ops are Azul, MelodiousNature, Kate, DTN, Bluer, Yermom, Gamer, Xion4ever, SSC, Sapharus, Faethin, Kryten, Neumannz and myself. For the record, only Azul, Faethin and I are able to remove or give ops permanently, and Faethin is only there for maintenance purposes (I think). Any new op candidates will, and have, been considered by both Azul and myself after they've been brought to our attention.

''"If they want to troll, swear, post crap, and so on, there are hundreds of thousands of channels and chatrooms across the internet you may choose to do so in."''

Indeed, we have one already: it's called #lolkick. By the way, Kate, I believe you used a word we're no longer allowed to say on the channel - does that extend to the wiki ;)?

On that note, I ask that the following words be removed from the swear filter:
*Ass
*Bastard
*Faggot
*Queer

These words have meanings which are quite apart from their usage as profanities or slurs (particularly the last - not only does it mean "peculiar", it has also largely lost its negative connotations, being used by the LGBT community and academia). The term "badass" has also passed into general parlance.}}
{{TNE|time=12:07, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=On a side note, if they are removed from the swear filter, and if people use it in such a way that it can be largely construed to be a swear or a slur, we can drop the warning bombshell, right ?}}
{{Yuanchosaan|time=12:10, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
|text=Certainly. Intent and tone is more of an issue than what is said.}}
{{TNE|time=12:15, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright. ^_^ Now time to enforce all this. It's definitely going to be difficult to deal with the whole lot of them, but I think this is the umpteenth time that yelling on KHW over the IRC has been done. Guess it all boils down to good faith.

Many of the ops aren't online frequently, so what do we do ? The only one who's on regularly (as I see) is Sapharus.}}
{{LotsoBearLover|time=13:16, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=The only thing I don't understand  is why you people Op people on the channel that are on only at Late Night..}}
{{Xion4ever|time=13:49, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=First, the actual channel Operators are: Azul, Yuan, Bluer, Yermom, Gamer, myself, Melodious Nature, SSC, DTN, Kryten, Sapharus, Faethin, and Neumannz. (type /msg chanserv access #wikia-kingdomhearts list). Not all staff members have the channel operator status they were guaranteed, meaning staff members that do come on the channel (TNE, Kate, HoO [he rarely comes on]) are not able to perform the sometime necessary channel operator position.

Another thing about the lack of Ops: look at the months these past problems have occurred in- June and July. For most of us, the months represent summer vacation, a time of relaxation and trips. This means that the activity of certain users (both channel operators and non channel operators) sometimes varies. For instance, DTN has taken a week or two off for personal reasons. Meanwhile, "old" users like Marexl show up on the channel. My point is that we kinda expected this; we know users will be in/out of the channel (and wiki) during these summer months. Also, we know certain users behave very differently around so-and-so. For example: Riku12 is normally a constant spammer on the IRC...when channel operators aren't around. However, Riku12 acts like the perfect user when channel operator, UnverzedRulez, is on.

I don't see much point in electing new channel operators with the main reason being a lack for something we knew was going to happen. However, if the consensus sees it fit that new operators be elected, by all means do so. Also, if we see it fit to elect new operators I strongly encourage that the few non-Ops staff members recieve their "powers" first, then we judge from there if new operators are needed.

Another solution to this is to give Central Wikia IRC users (#wikia) channel operator status on #wikia-kingdomhearts. Similar to Central Wikia admins having to block some vandals on here, Central Wikia users could fill the lacking channel operator position, ''if we choose so''. 

To answer GB's question: We [channel operators], as well as regular users, do have a life outside of the wiki/IRC. As much as we'd like to be on and patrol both as much as we like, we simply cannot.  Problems with the real life conflict with the wiki life, such as school, trips, family problems, and so on. Just how life is.

To conclude this rant, most problems on the IRC are a result from immaturity and (for some) an ignorance to the rules. Most users on the channel (including those who created/played a part in the problems) know the rules or have seen the page a few times. Problem is the lack of self-discipline to obey them. Channel operators can rant about the rules and kick/ban as much as it is needed. However, it is the opposite of what we want to do. Each indvidual user makes the IRC what it is. If you constantly break the rules then the channel is chaos. If you follow the rules then the channel can be fun. The IRC channel is what you make it, channel operators can kick/ban every rule breaker but that is neither fun nor what we desire to do. I hate to say this since I know that those involved in/caused the problems can act much better than they've shown, but, if needed, we [channel operators] can ban every rule breaker without cease and make #wikia-kingdomhearts the strictist IRC channel there is. Heck, we can even dispose of the channel if needed. Think of this paragraph as a final warning? Sure, if that's how you view it.}}
{{TNE|time=13:53, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Never in a thousand years would we wanna take out KHIRC....... provided that we get everyone to act according to conduct. Newcomers are all eager to adhere to the rules, why not the old timers too ?}}
{{Maggosh|text=''Indeed, we have one already: it's called #lolkick.''

The very same lolkick DTN kicked me from for doing what the channel was intended for?}}
{{TNE|time=14:27, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=Having seen all these issues, I really think some standards need to be put in place. Now don't go complaining and saying that it's a channel apart from KHIRC ; it involves KHW ''users''. All of whom are ''persons''.}}

{{LotsoBearLover|time=15:20, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=I have also Seen alot of user bashing on the IRC, and I think it's time to do something serious about it.}}
{{LA|Vtext=If we ever plan to induct new operators, why not induct those who are on almost all day, such as maggosh, Adola, and (not to sound a jerk or something...) myself?}}
{{KKD|time=21:42, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|axel=We definitely need some new ops if this is happening. As Lego suggested, Adola, Maggosh, and himself would all be good candidates, as they remain level-headed all the time, from what I have seen.}}

{{The Inexistent|text='''There are certain users coughsuiseisekimaggoshadolacough who are almost always on the channel.  Or at least when I'm on, which is basically every ten minutes...'''}}

{{LotsoBearLover|time=23:50, July 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Maggosh isn't Always on in my view.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Suiseiseki? He's on, but I never see him talk... ._. And I can't remember ever seeing you on, TheInexistant.}}
{{Yuanchosaan|time=00:08, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
|text=The issue is not a lack of ops. We have plenty. The issue is rampant flouting of the rules and immature behaviour which has not been appropriately reined in.}}
{{Azul|time=00:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=Previous posts really sum up what I'd say. '''<font color=white>A solution:</font>''' Follow the roolz or GTHO. Not reely, but reely. We didn't create the IRC roolz page to look pretty, but as a serious "manual" of the IRC. It's srs bssness and should be taken as such. We're not asking a lot, don't curse, be courteous. Is it ''that'' hard? Those who can't learn to follow it can get the hecko off. Including current ops '''<font color=white>Problem with Hexedy:</font>''' I think most of us from the FFWiki and who have known Hexed have a higher tolerance for his behavior and due to that, we don't take what he says all that seriously. But I think I can work something out. '''<font color=white>Addition of moar ops?:</font>''' TNE is the only active IRC-er/Staff member that I know of that doesn't have op status. So as soon as I see her I will op her. Adola and maybe 1 other person are the only people I see fit right now to recieve op. But even if we do that, it won't guarantee that the immature behavior will cease. I'm pretty much always there. Never heard, but always there, most of the time >> '''<font color=white>De-opping?:</font>''' The behavior exhibited by the ops and others in that link was unacceptable. Repercussions will be discussed.}}
{{TNE|time=01:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=About the FFW thing, I understand. Kuja himself told me that he got blocked once on KHIRC for his behaviour, but ever since then, things have changed. I think we've gotta tell them that when in a particular game's IRC, adhere to the rules of the game. FF allows for suggestive themes, language, alcohol reference and what not ; KH does not, or if it does, it's really minor.

As for ops and stuff......... WHAT !?! }}
{{KrytenKoro|I think we also need to discuss, do we want the swear filter at all?

Too many users have either gotten the impression (or pretended they have the impression) that anything not flagged by the filter is fair game. Plus, I haven't gotten any transcripts from it yet, so as far as my op-ness, it hasn't been helping.}}
{{BebopKate|time=03:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=Thanks for the updates, Yuan.  Since I can't be on IRC as much as I'd like, I was not aware of Hexed's de-opping.  Also...crap?  Seriously?  Add that one to the list.

Speaking of which...are we actually getting anything out of the swear filter, other than a reminder to the perpetrator that they shouldn't be using that particular word?  Is Adola turning the info over to anyone (or making it accessible), or is it sitting there until asked for?

And please don't misunderstand what I said; it's not just the young'ins or the swearing.  I'm not interested in turning IRC into a totalitarian regime.  I want everyone else to be able to have fun and enjoy themselves.  And so, it pretty much amounts to what a lot of people above me have said: it's all about respect and courtesy.}}

No one has ever asked for the logs.  Why would I just spew them out everywhere?  Ask for the logs, and you will receive [[User:Adola|Adola]] 08:42, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
{{BebopKate|time=20:37, July 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=I figured that was the case; just wanted to check and make sure.

Thanks for all your help Adola.  Whatever works out for IRC, we certainly do appreciate what you've done for us.}}

{{The  Inexistent|text='''Two things (not really pretaning to where the conversation went in my absence, mostly just answers to things people haf directed tword me) 1. I never said we needed more ops.  i just meant that they should possibly replace the older ones.  2. @LegoAlchemist, my IRC nick is KRCCFNF.'''}}
{{DTN|time=03:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's coming, everyone: the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. Even after [[Forum:Channel operators meeting requested|several]] [[Forum:Forum:IRC: A couple of issues|other]] [[Forum:Forum:IRC: Ban policy improvement|forum]] [[Forum:Suggestions for improving IRC bot|threads]] were created to try and stop the issues that had been presented on the IRC ''and'' a meeting of channel operators, these problems are still presenting themselves ''regularly'' in the community. Our channel is on a road to its own destruction, and the community is the one in the driver's seat.

I remember when I first came onto #wikia-kingdomhearts; a much smaller community had settled there, and the chat was light and peaceful. That is nothing like what we have now. In fact, we have the exact opposite of what I stated in that first statement. The community is large at all times, and the chat is very often spam-like, nonsense-filled, and breaks out into arguments. The problem, though, ''is not'' a larger community on the channel. The problem is that, as I have said time and time again in those four other IRC forum threads and beyond, '''''the community has absolutely no universal regard for the rules and regulations they have agreed to follow.''''' We can have the best of both worlds; we can have a large community, and peaceful chat that is still enjoyable for everyone. That doesn't at all require any of the language, arguments, or nonsense that we use on the IRC currently.

From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech [[Kingdom Heats Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|here]] on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator.

I completely agree with what has been stated by BebopKate.

Now, serious issue here: #lolkick. '''''This channel is in no way at all affiliated with the #wikia-kingdomhearts channel'''''. This is a completely separate channel in which a select few users use it to talk as a small group, both casually and seriously. Yes, ''some'' of the common users who chat in #lolkick are also #wikia-kingdomhearts regulars, but this is no way links the channels to be affiliated to have a purpose related to #wikia-kingdomhearts. For example, my reason for kicking maggosh from that channel once is that a private discussion was going on previously, and quite often one is. Would you want random users walking in on your channel and disturbing the peace? NO. This is a completely different channel, and as such needs to be treated with respect to proper interchannel affairs. For example, when ''[username removed]'' brought a band of users to #wikia-twilightsaga, they were unwelcome, and consequently were kicked and banned. One of them being me; having bad interchannel affairs isn't fun for anyone. Think of the relationship between #wikia-kingdomhearts and #lolkick like this: a group of employees work at a local supermarket. Members of this group of employees are also often seen at a local bar. However, the supermarket and the bar are not connected or affiliated with each other just because they both have the same customers. The supermarket is #wikia-kingdomhearts, and the bar is #lolkick.

This is all I have left to say on the matter: the channel is not headed in a good direction. The channel is headed toward its ultimate destruction, and there will be no new channel. There will be no replacement. The ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki will simply not have an IRC Channel. This channel has become so often abused, that we are running out of solutions to fix the problems that arise. It will not be long at all that the only remaining solution will be to remove the channel altogether, and that will simply be the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. And if we have to impose rules on user talk pages being used for conversation to substitute for a missing channel, we sure will. The IRC and wiki and meant to be two separate objects, but are starting to merge in an unhealthy, unwanted, and negative manner. If this continues, you can all say goodbye to #wikia-kingdomhearts. For good.}}
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 {{LA|Vtext=I agree with pretty much everything, except for the whole disowning the channel bit. Getting rid of the IRC would be a very hypocritical move, as we pretty much cheer on the use of it and not User Space for conversations. It isn't the channel's fault, it's the channeleers. Ninja, sensitivity may be hard to retain, but letting it out through anger is pretty much smashing everything '''assuming good faith''' stands for. Like everything that has rules, as soon as any user enters the IRC, they are agreeing to follow them. That is always how it is universally. If users have dropped to a going so low as to just breaking them, and the users in charge OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER do barely anything to stop it, we have a serious problem on our hands.
-I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I ''wasn't an op'', by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing [[KHWiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech]] to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? '''Everyone''' should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, ''especially'', as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing.
+I talked this over with another op, and apparently I was "punished" because I was "making the whole matter worse". This person also said that I was punished because I ''wasn't an op'', by stating that if an op had tried to improve the situation, it would have been a completely different matter entirely. If you ask me, that's just like smashing [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|DTN's little "everyone is equal on the IRC" speech]] to smithereens. Have we really come so low as to this is how we act? '''Everyone''' should be able to be allowed to deal with matters like these, ''especially'', as TNE puts it, give warnings. I don't want to be a part of the IRC if I can't have the same non-sysop powers as the ops have. By this, I mean everything except the whole kickbanhammer thing.
 Everything that we have tried to work for on the IRC has pretty much been destroyed, as well as DTN's aforementioned speech on us not needing ops. Let's face it. It is iminant.
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 {{The  Inexistent|text='''Two things (not really pretaning to where the conversation went in my absence, mostly just answers to things people haf directed tword me) 1. I never said we needed more ops.  i just meant that they should possibly replace the older ones.  2. @LegoAlchemist, my IRC nick is KRCCFNF.'''}}
-{{DTN|time=03:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's coming, everyone: the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. Even after [[Forum:Channel operators meeting requested|several]] [[Forum:IRC: A couple of issues|other]] [[Forum:IRC: Ban policy improvement|forum]] [[Forum:Suggestions for improving IRC bot|threads]] were created to try and stop the issues that had been presented on the IRC ''and'' a meeting of channel operators, these problems are still presenting themselves ''regularly'' in the community. Our channel is on a road to its own destruction, and the community is the one in the driver's seat.
+{{DTN|time=03:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's coming, everyone: the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. Even after [[Forum:Channel operators meeting requested|several]] [[Forum:Forum:IRC: A couple of issues|other]] [[Forum:Forum:IRC: Ban policy improvement|forum]] [[Forum:Suggestions for improving IRC bot|threads]] were created to try and stop the issues that had been presented on the IRC ''and'' a meeting of channel operators, these problems are still presenting themselves ''regularly'' in the community. Our channel is on a road to its own destruction, and the community is the one in the driver's seat.
 I remember when I first came onto #wikia-kingdomhearts; a much smaller community had settled there, and the chat was light and peaceful. That is nothing like what we have now. In fact, we have the exact opposite of what I stated in that first statement. The community is large at all times, and the chat is very often spam-like, nonsense-filled, and breaks out into arguments. The problem, though, ''is not'' a larger community on the channel. The problem is that, as I have said time and time again in those four other IRC forum threads and beyond, '''''the community has absolutely no universal regard for the rules and regulations they have agreed to follow.''''' We can have the best of both worlds; we can have a large community, and peaceful chat that is still enjoyable for everyone. That doesn't at all require any of the language, arguments, or nonsense that we use on the IRC currently.
-From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech [[KHWiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|here]] on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator.
+From being on the channel as often as I can, I can tell you that the reason Hexedmagica has not yet been banned from the channel is that the channel operators have not been keeping a log of distributed warnings as a whole group. Recently in our channel operator meeting, it was decided that we would keep a proper log that would be cleared every two weeks, aside from users' ban records which are permanent. I have yet to set this up, and will haul my browser over to a free text host to begin this log immediately. On the subject of LegoAlchemist having been bashed and yelled at for mediating the channel like a responsible user, my previous speech [[Kingdom Heats Wiki talk:Staff#There's a problem with the IRC|here]] on the equal responsibilities of channel operators and average users on our IRC Channel to maintain an acceptable behavior and nature on the channel should be showed by allowing all users to distribute warnings. If there is a disagreement, it will be discussed, and eventually removed by the distributor or a channel operator.
 I completely agree with what has been stated by BebopKate.
@@ Line 151: / Line 151: @@
 This is all I have left to say on the matter: the channel is not headed in a good direction. The channel is headed toward its ultimate destruction, and there will be no new channel. There will be no replacement. The ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki will simply not have an IRC Channel. This channel has become so often abused, that we are running out of solutions to fix the problems that arise. It will not be long at all that the only remaining solution will be to remove the channel altogether, and that will simply be the end of #wikia-kingdomhearts. And if we have to impose rules on user talk pages being used for conversation to substitute for a missing channel, we sure will. The IRC and wiki and meant to be two separate objects, but are starting to merge in an unhealthy, unwanted, and negative manner. If this continues, you can all say goodbye to #wikia-kingdomhearts. For good.}}
-{{LA|Vtext=Very nice, informative, and well said speech, DTN. I completely agree. You're right, the IRC has moved down to a new low, and the time has come that we may have to just get rid of the IRC.
-I am one of the many users who does not want that to happen.
-Regardless, we've been preaching about "the IRC" and "responsibility", "user rights" and "PG chat", but we still haven't answered the big question: '''What are we going to do about it?'''
-We cannot simply tighten our hold on the rules by making it super strict, because that is no fun, and it doesn't work. If the notion to just delete the IRC still holds, I oppose it. That is a quick and cowardly way to solve the situation. If simply tightening a bit of security, such as appointing trusted ops, doesn't work, then please, let us find a way to solve this situation without totally jumping the gun and ruining all of our fun, the reason why most of us come to the IRC in the first place.}}
-{{Blixna waka|text=Quite frankly, I completely agree with Adola. Banhammer is used a bit lightly currently, and if necessary to get the point across, should be shown prominently as example. Just meh thoughts on the subject...}}
-{{TNE|time=04:19, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=I think we'll need an op on throughout the time he/she is connected. And that person is charged with the responsibility of manning the main channel.
-And of course, if anyone wants to remove the KHIRC, you guys have to pass over the dead bodies of ''me,'', BebopKate, KrytenKoro, Maggosh, LegoAlchemist, Adola and several other users who have addressed the problem.
-There IS NO TIME for justifying behaviour, people. NO TIME. What does KH teach most of the time where the protagonists are concerned ? Charity. Behave likewise and the IRC will be in perfect shape. You gotta admit that the IRC is experiencing growing pains, but it's too early to pass a judgement and say that it's time to erase the channel.
-And call me a prude if you so wish, but regardless of whether a fight between our friends takes place in a supermarket or a bar, the people involved are still our friends. We stand up for them wherever they are. If we feel something is not right where the convos are concerned, we address it. I'm not going to have the #lolkick issue dismissed simply because it wasn't on KHIRC. THe fact remains that there was ungodly behaviour on both KHIRC and that other channel, and that it involves KHIRC members. Where disciplining is due, it's due.}}
-{{Maggosh|text=I completely agree with LegoAlchemist and TNE, as I also do not want to get rid of the IRC. We do need to do something about this, but just plain ditching the channel is utterly ridiculous, not to mention cowardly and makes it look like we can't problem solve, which we can. We are a community, and this is the time in which we come together to eliminate not the IRC, but the problems plaguing it. The father should not be punished for the sins of the son.}}
-{{NinjaSheik|text=I agree with Lady TNE. Perhaps...We should wait a little more. See how the others are behaving on the IRC Channel now since this subject was brought up. I think we should observe, and then decided.
-I propose three strikes, before you decide what should be done with the Channel. That sounds kinda fair, right?}}
-{{TNE|time=04:29, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=Depends on how severe the strikes really are.
-If it's only one user going around and causing havoc, I think we can regulate that. But if an entire commune is going to behave in an uncharitable manner, then we can consider that a strike. But three strikes and out is also going to be too severe, in this case. Problems are bound to happen. If most days have been relatively calm, then we can definitely put those as isolated cases.
-We have to take a look at the time period in general.}}
-{{NinjaSheik|text=True. What do you propose we do, Lady TNE?}}
-{{TNE|time=04:36, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=Since this time period has been relatively hazy, with two of these cases occurring in the same week, this, in future, will be considered a serious issue worth questioning.
-If say, the IRC has been calm and people have only gotten into such a brawl in an isolated case, we question them, but of course, we'll do it with more vigour if there have been conflicts over a period of a week.
-I chastise only in the rarest of circumstances. Where possible, we rectify all the errors. We make everyone warn. And most of all, the effort has to come from ''ourselves''. As much as many of us are susceptible to mood swings, some things we say can offend others, and the onus is on '''''us''''' to be careful. We can't have the KHIRC disbanded simply because we ourselves weren't even taking that simple step of self-control ! Well, I can't say it's a simple step, really, but nothing is simple.}}
-{{NinjaSheik|text=Yes, I agree. I wish this problem was much more simpler. This can't be fix by simply taking a vote, can it?}}
-{{R&D|time=04:44, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|yes=A vote would only bring to more problem. I agree with TNÉ.}}
-{{LA|Vtext=We can't forget that users who warn cannot ban. So, a three strike warning system is useless if users who are warning cannot get ahold of ops.
-Unfortunately, we have nothing to vote on, Ninja. Unless, of course, it comes to appointing ops, which I doubt will be the case. And remember what happened last time the community tried to vote? It was completely overruled by admins. So, a vote would be useless, despite everyone's preachings about equal rights here.}}
-{{TNE|time=04:48, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=I doubt the whole voting thing. Whether or not we take a vote, the burden still lies on us.}}
-{{NinjaSheik|text=Yes, I know. We're just going to keep going around in circles, if nothing is done soon. We need a conculsion sooner or later.}}
-{{LA|Vtext=<big>'''I wholeheartedly agree.'''</big>}}
-(EC'd FOUR TIMES)Nothing's ever truly fixed by a vote... I like TNE's analogy. It explains what we need to do to a T. " What does KH teach most of the time where the protagonists are concerned ? Charity. Behave likewise and the IRC will be in perfect shape. You gotta admit that the IRC is experiencing growing pains, but it's too early to pass a judgement and say that it's time to erase the channel." That pretty much sums up what I think about this matter. We also need to re-think how we conduct ourselves. A lot. You can also add another dead body to the pile they'll need to step over to get rid of the IRC. Remember what we're all here for. One series of games. Kingdom Hearts, above all else, promotes kindness, compassion, and friendship. If anything's gonna change, we need to stop acting like Organization XIII, with everyone running their own agendas, not caring about anyone else. We need to be one community, not several. ''One sky, one destiny.'' Remember those words.{{KKDSig|1}}
-SAME HERE ! I have been EC'd !
-{{TNE|time=04:58, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's one step, and it only takes everyone to try do it, if not do it : if you're on the IRC for example, you'd try control yourself so that all that you show would be PG or G, and you'd pay attention to your language. If you still have the urge to go beyond that line, a ping would do fine. But not on the main channel. Because Kryten and I and a lot of others abstain from such things, if we have to eschew the argument that there are minors on the channel.}}
-{{ZACH|mandrake=we have worked to hard to get rid of the irc now and if we are then add me to the list of dead bodies as i don't want to see the irc go down now we will just have the same reason that made the irc again if we get rid of it.}}
-{{TNE|time=05:26, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=We're defending charity and good rapport '''to the death !''' Now if you want to be a naysayer, I shall only say that you are part of the problem. And with that, I give my firm advice to such people to leave the IRC.}}
-{{LA|Vtext=Uh... TNE, ZACH was trying to say:
-:''We've worked hard to get the IRC, and if we're going to delete it, you might as well add me to the list of bodies. I don't want to see the IRC go down now. We will just have to bring it back, because all the user talk edits will be clogging the mainspace.''
-...I think...
-But I agree. If people are going to be a regular problem on the matter, I don't think they should ever come to the IRC.}}
-{{Yuanchosaan|time=05:51, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
-|text=Calm down, everyone. It's unlikely that the channel will be removed, and there are plenty of other channels out there.
-''"I think we'll need an op on throughout the time he/she is connected."''
-It's possible to set automatic op'ing to the channel. I'd prefer that this path not be taken, though.
-''"Banhammer is used a bit lightly currently, and if necessary to get the point across, should be shown prominently as example."''
-One of the problems is that each operator has different styles of moderating. I tend to be more light with the kickbanhammer, and prefer not to use op mode unless needed. Trois, from what I've seen so far, favours a more active approach. I'm not saying a unified approach is better, but we'd need to look at it if we want to alter our current policy.}}
-{{Dan da Man36|time=08:34, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|lion=Just adding my thoughts here as an IRC regular; Removing the channel is not going to solve the problem. If the channel is closed, then IRC chat will be brought to the wiki. If this chat then continues on the wiki, then it's probably going to head down the same road as the IRC; growing in number then turning into possibly offensive spam. If and when this happens, what are we going to do? Well, from what I gather from forums such as [[Forum:User Talk Conversation|this]], the users spamming the talk space will be blocked and / or banned. Why wait for this to happen when we can stop it now? We need to implement a period of time, be it temporary or permanent, of strict rules and punishment on #wikia-kingdomhearts.
-I know it will be tedious, but the combined op log that DTN suggested sounds like a very good idea. From recent observation, we all know that one op cannot catch everything another user does wrong. There is usually one operator present at most times of the day, and any trouble should be logged by them and shown to other operators. I know this would be a tough feat for you guys; you've done a great job at operating the channel so far, but a change of strategy is in order. I'd like to thank everyone that is willing to follow the rules, and I'd like to thank the operators for their hard work; so much effort has gone into #wikia-kingdomhearts, let's not let it go to waste.}}
-Well folks, I've read all of this, and there's something I'd like to point out.  IRC, is similar to a family.  Almost everyday, the same users sign in, and sit.  No one comes on to tell breaking news, or to ask difficult questions, or to even ask for help.  We go on there, to just idly banter with our mates.  In short, like all families, there's a few bad eggs, there's a few blacksheep, and there's a few troublemakers.  We'll pull trough.  When my server hosting goes through, the bot will be there 24/7 reporting EVERY curse word.  I suggest mods ask for that log every once in a while.  As for the fighting,  I suspect like someone said, 'growing pains'.  And I'd also like to note that Dan's above statement carries some weight.  Dunno about you guys, but sounds like he's wording it like a kid who's trying to get away from bullies, a kid who's appealing to the bullies so they'll just leave him alone.  To me, it sounds like Dan is trying his best to just keep things cool, so the channel doesn't get abolished.  And I suspect that's how a lot of people are feeling.  I'm wondering how many other people felt worried, or annoyed, or sad at DTN's comment about removing the channel.  If it's more than 1, then that's plenty of reason to keep this thing around.
-I suspect the only logical reason for removing this channel, would be to distort or abstract the associations made by it's users to the rest of the world.  As in, to not have #wikia-kingdomhearts known as a breeding pit of trouble.  However, if anyone is thinking that deleting the channel would solve the problem, it most certainly wouldn't.
-That's just a programmer's look into it.  Trying to be as logical as I can.
-In short, no amount of mods, or rules, or strikes, or threats could fix this 'problem'.  Our members are just going to have to grow up a bit.  We can try our best, but in the end, we're not going to decide how this channel plays out.  We need to either let it soar, or let it burn. [[User:Adola|Adola]] 09:41, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
-{{TNE|time=11:14, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=@LegoAlchemist : I know. It wasn't directed at Zach.
-@Yuanchosaan : I don't know, just that in light of what has happened of late, I thought of the active approach.
-@Adola : It's definitely more than one ;-)
-I'll do what I can - but remember that everyone must do his part.}}
-{{DTN|time=17:21, July 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, I think I freaked a couple of you out, inadvertantly. What I am trying to say is: '''''if problems continue to arise and solutions continue to have little-to-no impact, we will likely consider shutting down the IRC Channel'''''. Right now, there are absolutely no formal plans to do so. Simply comply with the rules and regulations that have been put in place, and the channel's existance shouldn't be threatened at all. However, we know that right now, people are not following the rules, and as such, they are the users who making the channel more of a burden than it is a helpful chat room. I know a lot of you do not wnat this channel shut down, so you need to aid us in not sneaking behind the rules, not following them when a channel operator is not present, and leading by example.}}
-{{MelodiousNature|time=19:26, September 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I've read all your comments, concerns and ideas and I want to apologize for not being on the IRC as often as I should have. I gave myself a break from the IRC thinking that it was left in capable hands. Which is was until now.
-I think shutting down the IRC channel should of be done if we can't salvage the channel anymore, but right now we still have a chance. Adding new ops is a good idea seeing as we've got more to monitor now since last time we hired new ops. However, I think we should only delete ops if they repetively break our IRC rules.
-If I had to suggest a solution I'd try to organise some sort of rota for ops? It's far-fetched but it could work.
-If only there was a way to shut down the IRC after a certain time and re-open it again at another. We could arrange ops to monitor the IRC throughout. I really am pulling strings...
-I'll be returning onto the IRC channel much more often now as we sort out this dilemma.
-EDIT: I was just thinking could the IRC bot not kick/block people who use profanity? It won't solve the problem but it will help?}}
-Heh, im not sure if I should or should not be surprised that this issue popped up again.  After reading through a bit though, I think most could agree you do have two main choices resolving this issue(But i'm sure these are not all the choices):
-.  '''Try some new moderators.'''  Maybe the problem lies within those who manage the chat channel, especially as seen within the evidence you have given.  If you do decide to remove moderators from the IRC channel, not everyone has to be removed, but if they have to be, so be it.  And when picking new moderators, take your time.  Build trust.  'Test' their abilities of trust and review it after to see if they have proven themselves worthy.  And over time, you'll start having a better chance at getting 'good' moderators to ensure order in the IRC channel.  The only downside to this idea is that it may not work as intended, because of either moderators that turned out to be bad or for whatever similar reason.
-.  '''Scrap the channel completely.'''  I remember suggesting something like this a while back when we had problems relating to the IRC chat, and maybe it is best that we just go back to having user page chats.  Even if new moderators do come around to help with the chat, so what?  Odds are, you are still going to get these threads regarding complaints about the IRC chat.  Don't get me wrong, sometimes you may have to put reminders or similar objects from time to time about the chat, but odds are, with new moderators, the current trend we have will continue.  The rules in the chat will continuously be violated by the public, and at best, the moderators will only be able to hold off the inevitable just a little longer and show more evidence to prove that its best for this chat to be scrapped.
-I understand that the downside to this is that the edit log will be full of people typing in user:talk pages along with other things.  Well, let me ask a simple question, "Can't you filter out the edit logs to not include such changes by default?"  Don't get me wrong, you should still have the option to display changes to user:talk for whatever reason, but if the spam is going to be such an issue, why not filter it out?  Just a thought in my head.
-Overall, I thought that the idea of having a wiki chat channel would be a good idea, because you could talk about what you like/dislike about the KH series, talk about the wikia, have general chat, a good time, and so on, and so on.  However, with the threads you see here, combined with how the internet community is and other things, we may be left with no choice but to scrap the channel, and it would be a shame to see the IRC channel go down like this.  And sadly, I have a feeling in the end, this may happen.  Unless...unless maybe something changes.  Somehow, I have a feeling that if one thing were to be changed, things may be a bit better.  But even then, I doubt it would make things better.--[[User:Pkthis|Pkthis]] 21:17, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
-{{Maggosh|flint=Pk, we already have new moderators; ENX, myself, and ShardofTruth, and each of us have been given op abilities. This discussion is three months old, and the issue, in my opinion, has blown over. We have a better handle on the channel now, and outright scrapping it seems unlikely.}}