Editing Forum:Bye-Bye, Mirage Arena

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{EO|time=18:46, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=So I was away in Florida for two weeks, without access to a computer. Thus I'm very behind on things. It has recently been brought to my attention that the [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki:Mirage Arena|Mirage Arena]] has been created. Seeing the forum where it was initially suggested by KingdomKeyDarkside on behalf of Redeemer & Destroyer, many users, including staffers approved of its creation. Now a "battle" between Sora and Riku is waged, people casting votes for their favorite character to win. Despite whatever rules have been established and how well things are going with it, some of us do not care for a DNC-style page here on the Wiki. I, for one, do not care for it for two reasons:
#It distracts from article editing
#It contradicts and poses many potential threats for the Wiki

Now I shall go through the trouble of explaining myself further.

*I am first against the Mirage Arena because it distracts from the true goal of the Wiki. We wanted "regulars" to be doing the voting and such here, but what are the staffers and more devoted users supposed to do when they're busy trying to protect one dumb page dedicated to utter tom-foolery from rule-breakers and the like? A real waste of time if you ask me. Especially when so many of our articles need work and there are either vandals or the less-experienced attacking them. This is where any staff/devotee attention should be directed. The articles really should be a lot better before nonsense of this level is carried out. True you vote once and then you leave the page alone, but do we really want people to gain contributions for such a senseless manner?

*Since I was a rookie, many people including myself have seen the Wiki develop from a place where fun and splendor were accepted along with the editing and perfection of articles into an unfair two-people-established-policy-heavy hierarchy where you're scolded just for re-wording a simple paragraph. But that's beside the point. The Mirage Arena seems to be a place where something stupid like voting on a favorite thing and then commenting on it is accepted. It has no real purpose. Once a week goes by, the winner is announced and that's that. It's not like the Featured Image or Featured Article, where it's decided and then placed on the homepage. Note that I'm NOT saying we should devote a section of the homepage to this. Basically what I'm trying to say is after being such a strict Wiki for so long, doesn't making a sudden exception to the rules seem a bit... weird? It's that April Fools joke all over again. This could open us up to major problems from newbies or whatever, who could just get 75 edits via talk pages or grammatical corrections, and I don't think we want to assess every person's edits... People could also abuse this, as again it's a voting session. The main point here is after being so strict, allowing something to exist that is so pointless and foolish is sort of strange. While this is a nice blast of the past back into the Wiki's hayday that so many of us enjoyed and the loss of caused so many of our best to leave, the Mirage Arena could become utter chaos if we let it go on, especially since it does not have a place here and should be moved somewhere else. Then again, I suppose ligthening the Wiki again is a separate forum topic. Still, do we really need a Project Page devoted to what could just be summed up in a poll on someone's User Page? Backwards thinking after what we've been through recently. 

I've never been that good at proving points. But some staffers have been annoyed greatly by people asking how to get 75 quality edits, as another detail as to why we should get rid of the Mirage Arena. Another, of course, being that the page would have to be renamed over and over again with each new game, since its current title is because of the BBS theme. If I think of any other points as to why we should get rid of the Mirage Arena, I shall post them here. Perhaps just the rules need to be re-discussed, so we can prevent future issues. Maybe we should wait and see how the first few "battles" go before making a final decision before we decide to keep or scrap this thing. Thoughts, anyone? I am in no way against the people who originally thought up the Mirage Arena or those who support it, but for the sake of the Wiki, it must go.}}

==Discussion==
{{LapisScarab|time=19:21, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|inverse=The Arena has only been up and running for less than a week by this point, and there are still a few kinks to work out. Give it some time. Your point about it breaking from the wiki's normal strict attitude is exactly the point of the Mirage Arena; it's a place where hardworking users can just take part in a little popularity contest. It's point is to be fun, in the same way that the countless forums in the Twilight Town Library are meant to be for random, Kingdom Hearts related fun, unless you have a problem with those too.

It is also supposed to be a ''motivation'' for editing. Members that don't have the required number of edits now have to get to work and start making productive ones. Some users have made it clear that they're perfectly happy to take on the burden of checking the edits of users to make sure they're of quality. Talk page edits aren't counted, but grammatical ones absolutely are. Just because they're small doesn't mean they're not important. Are we really going to block a user like [[User talk:Xion Valentine|Xion Valentine]] (should he/she ever want to participate) from the Arena because his/her edits are all "lowly" proofreading?}}
{{EO|time=19:35, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=True, we should wait and see what develops (Lexaeus, anyone?). Maybe we can revisit this forum if things get out of hand. But if we were setting up 75 to ''motivate'' people, why not make it 10 edits? Why not make it 20? Why not make it 2,000? It's not a matter of numbers, but the number of those edits that are actually ''good'' edits! That's why we should up the number, so that even if someone strays away from good edits, they can at least have a majority of good edits.}}
{{SC|time=20:54, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|armor=I feel sort of torn between the MA. On one hand, it seems a good idea, as a fun place to let loose and enjoy the community. On the other hand, it can easily spiral into the only thing people around here edit, much like the DNC on the Final Fantasy Wiki. I hate to say it, but a lot of users edit just for that (The sole reason I no longer visit it). I myself haven't voted on the MA, mostly because I apparently don't fit the "requirements", which need "quality edits". That seems kind of hypocritical, but I'll get to that later. Anyway, the MA isn't a motivation to edit; it's more like telling a child they'll get a cookie if they clean their room. They'll just eat the cookie and mess it up again, much like what will happen here. People will get to the edit number, and stop being good. If the edit count was insanely high, there would be few contributors to the MA. It's... complicated.

Well, onto the "quality edits". Who is to decide this? There is no single user who has made every single edit "quality". All human beings enjoy having fun and not always working. Not everything a person does is "useful". Some people find their niche doing grammer edits (XionValentine, others), making redirects, disambigs, wiki-gnome stuff (Myself), or doing huge, flamboyant edits (A username fails me.). Everybody does their own thing. This brings up the subject of who is to judge what is quality; no user is perfect enough to say who makes good edits or not. I know I myself am not one to talk, as I have miniscule mainspace edits. I am working on it, though. But this isn't about me. It's about the MA.

When first announced, I was all for it. It sounded cool, another place to vote on opinions. But in hindsight, it's not very useful. (Another reason why the DNC isn't the FF wiki's best feature.) It encourages off-topic discussion which can be done in IRC (and is heavily encouraged), and said discussion can lead to petty, even offensive fights. (Proof? [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:Off-topic_DNC_discussions&t=20100324110319 This].) It also leads, once again, to users sitting around doing nothing when they can be editing. Again, I know I am not one to talk when about half of my edits are on talk pages (A flaw I am ashamed of and am trying to overcome), but I know my errors. I just hope this doesn't become the cesspool the DNC has become. There's my two cents (or more like 30, based on the wall of text).}}
{{LA|Vtext=I find myself agreeing with everything you're saying, SilverCrono. When you put it that way, the Mirage Arena does simply seem like a stupid and redundant idea that we're getting way over our heads into.

To put it simply, the Arena is just a hassle. I myself joined the Arena because I felt that I had nothing to do on the wiki anymore, which isn't true at all. Despite what I thought, and many others thought, there are things to do here on the wiki... let me rephrase that, ''constructive'' things to do on the wiki, and the Mirage Arena distracts from what needs to be done, is pointless, and generally is just a pain to have to handle. When I joined the crew, the thing that was on my mind was "I don't do anything on the wiki anymore. I might as well put in my two cents." I didn't expect it to be that big a problem. All I really do there is clean up after users who ignore the "75 edits" rule. If you look at the votes we have, there aren't very many, and most of them are from users who are regulars. That's exactly what it is, just an exclusive club for the regulars here on the wiki that reject newbies. At this rate, the Arena is going to become not a voting session, but a place where we can socially cast out newcomers here on the wiki and tell them they can't be a part of the community unless they actually edit the mainspace. That is an activity that I myself recently decided I do not want to be a part of. This makes me a huge hypocrite, as I was the person who said "It will be no problem at all". What an amazing lie. 

On the matter of "quality edits", "editcount", and "mainspace edits", if the Mirage Arena is to continue, it needs to be thought over. The rules are seriously flawed. It should start with clearly defining what a "quality edit" is, a solid number for editcount we need to decide on, and users who are actually dedicated to and will help moderate it. The crew is far too small, and I don't want to be expected to have to check every single user's editcount and delete every good post that's pasted to the wall. If this becomes mainstream, it will be way to big of a hassle for me to deal with. But, like SilverCrono said, it's not about me. It's about the Arena.

I suggest giving it more development time - ''a lot'' more development time. The crew was a little to excited to get it started, and I think it was initiated too early. Now that we have a taste of what it's going to be like, I suggest closing it down and ''really'' rethinking it. I am not opposed to just getting rid of it completely, however. But I think it's too early. Give this idea a chance to develop. While it is a huge distraction from the mainspace, it is still only a week old. The Arena could have a lot of potential, should it continue. But my previous statements still stand.

Frankly, I would in no way exclude users like Xion Valentine. That is a good quality user, one we need much more of.}}
{{KKD|axel=Frankly, the whole "500 edits" suggestion below is downright ridiculous, and to be perfectly and clearly honest, so is this forum. This thing hasn't been up for a week, and people are trying to tear it down like some ancient building that's in the way of something else? Insane. I do agree with what lego said, and it does need a lot of fixing-up. I'd say shutting it down right now would be '''''absolutely preposterous''''', and a waste of a potentially good idea. Personally, I think the best motion from here is to take it down for now, call this a "test week", to see how it went, and put a good month or two of honing in to make this as good as it can be. EDIT 22:33, July 14, 2010 (UTC): another thing I forgot. Not only is this forum ridiculous, but it is also hypocritical. If you're gonna go against something, ENX, try to avoid participating in it before trying to shut it down. Thanks. One more thing, you clearly didn't read the rules all the way through. And I quote:''"from newbies or whatever, who could just get 75 edits via '''talk pages''' or grammatical corrections,"'' Our rules clearly say that edits that count cannot come from talk pages.}}

To be a contradiction the Arena did motivate me. I tried to vote when it first came up but I didn't have the edits and I was on vacation so I didn't have much time to do anything other check the forums quickly. Now that I'm home however I have spent a couple days attempting last month's cleanups, Days weapon articles, and I've gone through the game guide's list of Roxas' weapons. So to be contradictory the Arena did motivate some users into trying to make their quality edits. i have around 50 now, I think.--[[Memorized]]

==New Rule Suggestions/Current Rule Improvement Suggestions==
{{EO|time=19:02, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Were this to unfortunately stay, I for one would up the number of edits needed. That way it could eliminate newbies and whatnot, who do not wish to put in the effort to gain the high number of edits. This would sort out regulars from those who weren't. A lowly 75 edits does not make you a regular. I'd say you'd need at least 500 edits (trust me, I'm thinking more up in the thousands, so this is very fair). I'd also suggest increasing the length of time a "battle winner" is determined. Changing something each week is a bit of a pain, and we may not remember to do it. Heck, we don't even check to see what needs deletion half the time, so why pressure staffers/trusted users with one more thing?}}
{{LapisScarab|time=19:24, July 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=The current number of 75 was placed in response to "slower activity", though as KrytenKoro pointed out on the Arena's talk page, there's still plenty of work to be done. I prefer the original number of 100, though I'm not strongly opposed to changing that.}}
{{Auror Andrachome|text= I think 500 is good, although the only reason I like that is because I have over 600! >=D}}
{{LA|Vtext=75 edits due to slower activity is a lie. When the Mirage Arena just came out, and the rules were in the first stage of developement, Redeemer, one of the founders of the Arena, didn't have 100 mainspace edits. It is simply that.}}
{{TNE|time=00:26, July 15, 2010 (UTC)|text=The MA isn't going just yet, and the reason being, we can't dismiss it just like someone is dismissing the IRC channel. -___- What we're gonna have to do is this :

We need to gather the regulars and agree on a proper edit count. 75 is few. I do realise, too, that this is a lot bigger than the side of Darkness, so constant monitoring is needed. If we have to lengthen the time, we'll make it two weeks, and the Joint Struggle will feature the 4 winners pitted against each other.

Note that I'm saying this because I was thinking hard about this. The MA should be an ''incentive'' for people to edit, and at least, it seems so to some users as I've noticed. But some would abuse this as their only thing to edit. In the event this happens, if one person is only there for the Mirage Arena and nothing else, we can afford to monitor the Recent Changes. That person will equally be barred. If we want to get the MA up and running (and I know several people among us do), we've gotta get the people to ''work, vote, work, work, work, vote !''.

To end, I must agree with what KKD said up there. As much as I see the potential in something, there's bound to be a few people who try bring it down. But I'm not giving up hope. I'm ''not'' reneging on this idea !}}
{{SC|time=00:33, July 15, 2010 (UTC)|mad=TNE, I have no reason for it to die. I'm pretty sure I said it has some flaws. There are some things we need to change about it, but it's not that serious. It just has to fixed. A lot. But it doesn't have to die. Please don't misunderstand, guys. <small>This is my opinion, I do not talk for any others.</small>}}
{{TNE|time=00:38, July 15, 2010 (UTC)|text=I understand. Thing is, it was deemed an antithesis to the wiki just a few days after we even got started. Fine that it has its flaws. But this assumption was based on the fact that there were a select few... or shall I say one... who were, or who was - ironfisted over policies. Now even such people would deem it to be the antithesis to the wiki. But I personally believe that given the right fixes and the right attention, this thing won't go to waste. After all...... 87% of the regulars agreed on it, and that's strong enough a majority. More than even two thirds.}}
As I previously said, 500 is way too many edits. However, something along the lines of 150 or 200 would be more acceptable. Right now, I'm not too certain that we should keep the MA going for next week. Many problems arose, and need to be fixed before we can continue. Me and R&D are in agreement that this week is called as a "test week", as we launched the arena prematurely, and it was crippled due to that. In the meantime (which will probably be about a month), we'll focus on perfecting the rules and systems we use. There's no question about it coming back, but it will be better when it does. Questions? Concerns? Bring 'em up right here folks. {{KKDSig|1}}
:I'll raise if I have any. {{User:Troisnyxetienne/Signature}} 03:10, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
{{R&D|time=23:49, July 18, 2010 (UTC)|dark=In response to this forum and the opinions presented in it the Mirage Arena shall be put on hold. The constant complain about the flaws on the rules and the needs of improviment will be considered. The MA will return once the rules have been discussed and improved and everything be fixed and arranged. I'll leave another message once everything is done.}}
==New Rules==
{{R&D|time=19:48, July 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=I have some new rules done. Check out and see if they are good:

*You may vote only once.
*You '''must be a registered user''' to vote.
*<big>You must have at least '''125 quality edits''' before voting. Check your editcount Here, by typing in your username. ''After each week the counting will raise in 10 edits.''</big>
*Please check for: '''Mainspace, Image, Main Page Template, Walkthrough, Card, Kingdom Hearts Wiki''' and '''MediaWiki''' edits.
*''If you are not logged in when you vote, '''your vote will be removed.'''''
*To vote, type the following "<nowiki>#~~~~</nowiki>", afterward including any reasons for voting you may wish to include. '''''If you do not sign your vote, it will be removed.'''''
*Add your votes to the bottom of the list. '''''<font color=red>Please do not post anything offensive and/or extraordinarily lengthy or it will be removed.</font>'''''
*If you wish to comment on the fight, please leave your remarks in the Keyblade Graveyard. You are expected to conduct yourself with courtesy. Comments must relate to the fight at hand. If the comment is flaming a character (Which may or may not start an extremely heated argument or fight), or another editor they shall be removed.
*If the rule above is not followed the Keyblade Graveyard will be removed. The fight is between the contestants and not the users.
*Do not alter the format of this page.
*If the battle end with a tie a Sudden Death match will happen. During the time of 1 hour the users contestant that receives more votes win. 
*Sudden deaths matches start at random and may take place during another battle.
'''''Any failure to adhere to these rules will result in your vote(s) being removed or loss of voting privileges. '''''

'''Vote Policy:'''
''Please follow these guidelines when removing votes and taking away vote privileges.''
#The vote is removed.
#The vote is removed and 1st warning message is sent to the talk page
#The vote is removed, 2nd warning message is sent and loss of vote privilege to the next fight
#3rd warning message is sent and loss of vote privileges for one month
#4th warning message is sent and loss of votes privileges permanently.}}
{{TNE|time=01:19, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=I got a question : Do the warning messages for MA differ from the normal warnings, or are we gonna use the normal warnings ?}}
{{R&D|time=01:22, July 22, 2010 (UTC)|isee=We will use regular Talk Bubble warnings. The Warning Templates are for vandals... and we have many problems with the Admins about using them incorrectly. But if an Admin aproves, we could make Special MA Warning Templates... 
But for now, let's just stay with Talk bubble Messages.}}