Editing Forum:Birth By Sleep spoiler policy

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

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{{KrytenKoro|Okay.

Now, we pretty much all agree that there needs to be some type of spoiler policy specific to BBS.

Now, there is currently discussion as to exactly what that details. As a preemptive measure, I've fully protected for three months Aqua, Terra, Ventus, Master Eraqus, Master Xehanort, Vanitas, Braig, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, Ienzo, Sai, Lea, Xehanort, Mickey, and Lingering Sentiment, though that was, again, purely preemptive, and those locks can be lessened, lengthened, or downgraded.

Personally, I believe that storyline-spoilers should not be added without being marked with [[:Template:Spoiler]] and [[:Template:Spoilerend]] templates, and context of the information should also be properly understood (meaning that translations must be done by credible translators, and that full scenes are studied), so that the the summary is correct, and not just original research based on a snapshot of the game. Item and name spoilers, though, I'm completely fine with, just like last time. While talk pages are not subject to the same strict level, it would still be considered trolling to just throw spoilers up there unless it is specifically part of suggestions for improving the page. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum or news site.

From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong!):

*DTN and Maggosh believe that story info should not be posted at all until the English release.
*NV believes that no story info should be posted until the scenes in question are available on youtube.

This needs to be a community-wide discussion, so please everybody leave your input (''not just affirmations'') below.
}}
Omamus: I agree with NV
{{Xiggie|time=00:55, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I think that it should be OK to put up information from BBS on various articles, but Spoiler templates should always be used (except for names of items, weapons and such stuff). I think that as long as the information comes from a trusty source (like Youtube BBS gameplay vids), the info from them should be added to the Wiki. I understand that some users don't wanna get spoiled, but I don't think that we should not update any BBS articles until the english release just because of that... Maybe the main articles should stay protected, but the BBS information should be added to here... somewhere...

So, what I am saying is that I agree with Kryten's personal opinion as well as NaturaVega's.}}
{{EO|time=01:01, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm with Xiggie. Is the "Skip Section" portion still in the template? If we ''do'' use any type of new BBS info at all, we should allow an option to skip the section, or the entire article in some cases (which becomes redundant)...}}
{{LapisScarab|time=01:04, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=Yeah, I agree with them too. We need to put up information, we're a wiki after all, and the spoiler templates give users fair warning. And waiting for video evidence to come out means we won't be spreading rumors by accident.}}
{{Maggosh|text=Is there any was to code the Spoiler tags so they change the text in between to white?}}
{{Xiggie|time=01:15, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|talk=Can't you just... not read it?}}
{{Maggosh|text=Well, excuuuuse me, Princess, for coming up with an idea.}}
{{DTN|time=03:38, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=I understand that it was a previous thought to have the information for ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep'''s plot not added to the articles until the North American or European release of the game. Due to the fact that we will, inevitabley, have to once again deal with translations, why not just wait for the North American release, and avoid the translation issues? Remember the mess that translating the weapons from ''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days'' from their Japanese names to their English names was? It was a total and complete mess. Here's the message I left on KrytenKoro's talk page concerning this:

"I actually would prefer that we leave the spoilers off of the articles, in the way that you have done by locking the related articles. The spread of spoilers is already causing issues on the IRC Channel, and I'd rather not have those same issues brought to the wiki. Plus, several users wish to remain unspoiled, myself included. If a user really wants to know what happens in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, they have several other resources to look to, such as the KHInsider Forums, a Japanese KHWiki, or several other resources that are across the Internet."}}
{{LapisScarab|time=03:44, January 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=But the whole purpose of a wiki is to provide information. That's why we have the spoiler templates, so that we can have that information for those who want it, and alert those who do ''not'' want it yet that they should not read that section. Waiting several months without updating the articles with information from the game just so some readers can remain unspoiled seems a little absurd to me. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read the section with spoiler tags.}}

Your overreacting.  Relax.  Maybe I can understand locking it to only registered users for a week to calm the hype down, perhaps, but otherwise there's really no need to lock articles fully for 3 months.  When something new comes out, the information might be a bit messy at first, but over time, it will become clearer.--[[User:Pkthis|Pkthis]] 15:28, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
{{Randomnessity|talk=I myself completely agree with the lockdown for many reasons that I am simply to lazy to type.}}

{{Cecil|text=I don't know if someone already suggested this, but I think it would be better if information i added in articles pertaining BBS, but when it comes to Spoilers, adding a spoiler template would be good, just like the FFWiki did with Final Fantasy XIII.  That's what I think though.}}
{{LA|Vangry=AAh! Good. There's already a ropic on this.

Recently, an item stub from BBS called Vanitas's X-blade was put up for deletion because "people don't want BBS to be spoiled". 

This is ridiculous! We can't delete pages because people don't want to be spoiled! That is unfair to the people who do want to know the info, and want to help improve it. If we deleted that article (which, by the way, contains barely any spoilers for BBS), then we might as well delete ever other BBS stub that "might ruin the story" for people! Besides, if people don't want to be spoiled, they don't click on the link, or don't read the text! There are countless spoilers on this wiki for things like Days and now BBS! If we delete all of the spoilers, we'll never have any new information! That's why I'm still here, to keep adding information and to not be minded by spoilers.}}
{{Randomnessity|text=I thought it was more along the lines of they didn't want another translation pandemic like what happened for ''Days''. I may have misread it though. Who knows? I may have to rethink what I stated above....}}
{{Saxisai|time=[[User:Saxisai|Saxisai]] 05:10, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|hidden=I agree with Lego completely! The whole wiki is practically a spoiler to some people but they don't care about that, just the new information. If people don't want to be spoiled, then the wiki better take down every single picture of almost everything related to BBS, because they are going to appear on people's user pages, talk pages, and in the forums itself! They are also going to have to delete some people's images for their talk bubbles because they have certain characters faces included in them.

(its a shame that im going to have to start using this talk bubble just because people dont want to be spoiled)}}
{{LapisScarab|time=05:14, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=@Randomnessity: That's part of it, but that reason doesn't really hold water. Most of the weapon/location names are already basically in English (ex. Rasukaru Fureimu=Rascal Flame), and anything else can just be changed accordingly when the English game comes out. So long as people who actually speak Japanese do the translating, I don't see much of a problem there.}}
{{LA|Varmor=How about this. We have the BBS info, but we put spoiler info on ''''everything''''. Like I said: People will want the info, and getting it from other sources will be a problem for the browsers on this wiki. I know, it's hard for me to find stuff on Birth by Sleep, seeing as kh13 and khinsider aren't as organizaed as us. We are the central source of info on Kingdom Hearts, and if we don't have it, nobody does.}}
{{Saxisai|time=[[User:Saxisai|Saxisai]] 05:27, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|hidden=if you noticed, nobody has cared about the spoilers on the indicated page, only the person who posted it for deletion. (well, nobody has cared who want it deleted, if they want it deleted, they would have posted it in the deletion thread)}}
{{KKD|time=06:03, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|xemnas=Okay, this is what I was talking about. But it appears that I misread it. they don't want spoilers on without tags, and they don't want them on the pages on lockdown. I withdraw my deletion appeal.}}
{{Shixoh|time=06:12, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|text= As long as the spoilers are properly marked I don't see a problem with them being on the website. We could put a spoiler warning on the top of articles stating that they have spoilers in them and which parts have the spoilers. That way people know ahead of time what parts of the articles have spoilers in them. A bunch of people that I know have been dying to know what happens and they don't want to wait until the English one comes out. Since they don't undersand Japanese playing my copy wouldn't do them any good. If people don't want to find out what happens then they can just avoid the pages that have spoilers on them.}}
{{Saxisai|time=[[User:Saxisai|Saxisai]] 06:22, January 10, 2010 (UTC)|happy=Well, its all good now, the page is back up and it has the spoiler tags in it.}}
I think it needs to be made clear to everyone what is and what isn't allowed. It seems like every other edit is a revert to remove spoilers. [[User:Raven's wing| Raven's wing]] 18:03, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
{{Randomnessity|hooded=I feel inclined to say that I am one of those "reverters" that you speak of. I simply do what I am told to do. And anyone who adds spoilers that they are told not to, I will revert, unless I'm told it's fine by one of the staff. Until the spoiler policy is gone, that's what I'm gonna do.}}
I didn't say it was a problem, only that it would be a good idea to try to prevent an eventual edit war when someone fails to get the message. [[User:Raven's wing| Raven's wing]] 18:15, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
{{Randomnessity|text=I didn't take it as a problem. I was just stating what I do.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Randomnessity, just letting you know that I'm pretty sure we made it clear that spoilers are not to be deleted, but marked with the Spoiler templates.}}
{{Randomnessity|hooded=Must of missed that. Better tell ENX that too then. He was reverting some as well.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Spoilers are to be marked with the spoiler template ''if'' they are actual information, and not just someone throwing blurbs up. Either way, warnings should be given to the editor that put the spoiler up there without discussing it on the talk page or using the spoiler template.

Basically, if it seems like the guys just trying to fill in a section of the article, more power to him. If he is instead '''''just trying to post spoilers for spoilers sake''''', burn the **cker.}}

{{Randomnessity|text=Reasonable enough.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Fine.}}
{{Bluer|14:18, January 11, 2010 (UTC)|Okay, I've received complaints about some pages relevant to BbS being fully protected for three months due to a spoiler policy, kupo, and I have to say something:

'''RIDICULOUS MOVE, KUPO.'''

Protecting pages from vandalism, it is understandable, kupo, but protecting pages from spoilers, confirmed translations or otherwise, is utterly ridiculous, kupo. Wikia Protection Policy does not recommend to this, at all. 
There is a reason why a talk page is installed for each article - and discussing translations would be one of it.

Now, I'm going to this on a more personal level, kupo. I've seen KrytenKoro pulling this move time after time, kupo, policing the wiki in ways which some users complain are less user-friendly. The page protection rendered the spoiler policy utterly useless, kupo. Now, I would like it to be possible that the pages are made editable to users, kupo. 

It is really ironic that even though there's a page protection in place on his article, I get spoiled about Vanitas from its talk page,}}
{{KrytenKoro|I started this forum and locked the pages specifically because multiple editors asked me to, and when some new editors have complained about it, I have directed them to this forum and asked them to chime in. I agree with them that there is ample evidence of new editors rushing to post spoilers, and in the process making a mess of the pages, ''especially'' given the fact that, at the time ''there were no translations available''.

The point of a wiki is to encourage the building of articles, yes, but '''when it is 100% certain that the information is not verifiable or reliable''', protection is appropriate.

As I said at the start of this forum, the locks were entirely pre-emptive, and I personally have no problem with them being unlocked. But the unlock needs to be the community decision, not a unilateral move by one admin.}}
{{KrytenKoro|To head a protect-war off at the pass, can we all agree that the blocks are no longer needed? As long as we've agreed on what the spoiler policy is, they shouldn't be needed anymore.}}
{{Bluer|04:45, January 12, 2010 (UTC)|Forgive me, this is where I have to point out something, kupo. The editors you refer to have all the right to fear the spoilers, as well as I, but I don't think we should be locking out articles in the wiki at their expense, kupo. I commend DTN, for one, who took a self-imposed wikibreak to keep away from spoilers.

If a user has posted a spoiler, ask them for verification, kupo. A dedicated user will do all in their power to verify what info they wanted to input, kupo. If they could not, then act against them, but the articles must still be editable for other users who wish to maintain and keep the article according to the wiki's style, kupo. As a wiki dedicated to the series, kupo, we should always keep up with information, and this isn't possible when we lock it because a vocal group wants to keep themselves unspoiled, kupo. It's also pointless when the discussion page has all the possible spoilers they had wanted to avoid}}
{{Bluer|04:55, January 12, 2010 (UTC)|I have simple reasons, really, kupo. I want people to edit, to contribute as much as they could, kupo. Restrictions only bog down their potential, kupo. If I wanted to filter all the things written here, I might as well lock the entire wiki up, and people who want to contribute can just write me an email and I'll write it down for them, but of course I won't do that,}}
{{KrytenKoro|You seem to be acting like I want to keep people out, but I too want people to edit. But I also want to respect the wishes of the community, which is why I immediately asked for comment when said group asked me to protect the pages. While the clear consensus is to just use the spoiler policy we already had in place for ''Days'', the only discussion on the protection has been one "support", and one "against". As soon as there is actual discussion on it that shows it is the consensus, I will eagerly support unlocking the articles - I myself am a spoiler hound.

As for asking users for verification, I have been. See [[Talk:Aqua's Keyblade]]. Specifically because we had gotten two different names, since people were confusing her default Keyblade with the final Keyblade (i.e., direct confirmation that the claimed name was unreliable). No verification was provided, and instead, the article was again moved to the unconfirmed name. (I will note that by now, I have searched youtube and found the correct name myself.)

Furthermore, no one seems to be following or respecting the spoiler policy we already had in place, or even the temporary sitenotice that DTN asked me to post. (Example given below). In this case, the information was a mess (as predicted by the editors who asked me to lock the page), the information clearly shows no understanding of the script itself (as I predicted), and no spoiler template was posted. Furthermore, the information was added back after it had been reverted by another editor (which is within rights, as reversion policy supports removing badly written sections). As the edit had already been reverted, I'm not going to give the editor a warning, but I've not seen other editors giving warnings even in still present cases.}}

*[http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Xehanort&diff=240669&oldid=240659 Example]

{{BebopKate|time=08:00, January 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=My apologies for being late to the party; I've somehow missed this thread.

And frankly, I don't have a lot to say about the Spoiler Policy itself.  We seemed to make it through the ''358/2 Days'' info-glut just fine.  Articles were posted, information was corrected, and while some spoilers slipped through, it seemed to work pretty well over all.  Is it a huge pain in the butt?  Yeah, of course it is.  You're talking about allowing anyone access who wants to contribute, from excited kids who just want to contribute ''something'' to seasoned editors who want it done right to jerks who want to ruin it for everyone.  In the beginning, especially with translations, articles are going to be a huge mess with information going back and forth, but they will eventually gel into something coherent and correct.  They did with ''358/2 Days'', and they continue to.  The wiki evolves.

As much as we'd like everything to be 100% perfect when we put it up, it's just not going to happen.  People will make mistakes.  Rumors will be mistaken for fact, no matter how hard we try.  I'll admit I chewed another editor out for this not two weeks ago; I also felt genuinely bad for doing it when he told me he'd gotten the info from a source we usually think of as reliable.  The annoying fact is nothing is reliable all of the time; no source or work is perfect.  Some error will slip through.  Our strength is that when that happens we look at it and ask what we can do to fix it and make it better, and really, that's all we can do.

And honestly, I think there are also still a few bruised egos floating around from the incident with GameFAQs a while ago.  Perhaps some editors are trying to prove we are "quality."  My question is quality by whose standards?  If we had less plot and story info, someone would complain about it.  If we group articles in one way, someone somewhere would whine.  If we made the entire wiki an amazing 3-D virtual, truly interactive experience, someone would still find something to gripe about.  There's a point at which you have to ignore the criticism and do what you feel works best.

For those suffering from tl;dr: We're not perfect, but do your best.  It will work out in the end.}}
{{Bluer|08:22, January 12, 2010 (UTC)|Ultimately, though, I really wish we do not resort to page locking/protection in the near future, kupo, especially at user request, and especially when multiple users are asking for it, and especially when the reason for locking these pages is "spoilers", kupo. That defeats the whole purpose of this wiki to be publicly editable, kupo. When referring to "publicly editable", that means every user can edit AND revert edits. Locking pages devolves into lazy community policing, meaning if you're not going to help maintain articles, ultimately you do not need to be here. 

What I like better about certain notable Wikias is that it is serious in marking whichever paragraph in an article contains a spoiler, kupo, and they rarely employ full protection of articles, kupo. The most protection these articles received are semi-protections, even for high traffic articles, kupo. It is a wonder how they can get by with that, but in the end, it comes down to understanding how wikis work, and it doesn't work with too many restrictions,}}
{{KrytenKoro|I don't disagree with you bluerfn, I just want us to all agree on unprotecting the articles. One of the reasons those wiki's work without full protections is because there is a larger, more active base of experienced editors (if we're thinking of the same ones), and they have put much more effort into ironing out the policies and policing edits.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Both because no one else seems to care about the protections, and because no one else seems to care about ''respecting'' the protections, spoiler policy, translation policy, or verifiability policy, I've gone ahead and unprotected all of the articles. If even the admins and established users are violating or supporting the violation of these policies, then protections are useless. (Ex: [[Vanitas]], where it is clear the story section was written by someone who had no idea what any of the characters were actually saying)

Instead, I will be aggressively pursuing these policies myself. I will mark or remove material that is unsourced or obviously used without context, as a violation of the fundamental policy of verifiability, and I will be giving warnings to those who persist in readding the information without sources.

Is the situation now acceptable, bluerfn? If there are any other suggestions you had, we should probably implement them now.}}