Editing Forum:Art Transparency

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 21:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|default=I don't know much about images but I've noticed that many concept art images have been made transparent. I want to know whether that's correct, though. I thought the white background was intentional to represent paper for any shading the artist may have used. Thoughts?}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=21:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|text=YOU'RE WRONG! GOSH, FM!

Ok, now that my sarcastic, non-existent anger is taken care of (this is what happens when I don't see my friends for too long), here's how I understand it. Byzantinefire has been uploading several bigger images to the wiki. To center his efforts, Xion4ever directed him to the list of images on the [[Forum:Updating our Projects|Project update Forum]], and he's been working on that. There was a little problem with it after a day (yesterday), because some of the images he was uploading were of lower quality, and others were edited rather badly. But it was supposed to have been taken care of. That's all I know.}}

{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 21:22, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|confused=So concept art ''is'' supposed to be transparent? That's what I need clarified here.}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=21:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|text=I think so. See, I just go with what Xion4ever says as far as images go. She pointed Byz to the forum, where I assume (though I haven't had time to check all of them) the images Byz has been uploading are listed. Several of the images he uploaded were there when I checked yesterday, so I assume the concept art is on that list. The only image I fought against becoming transparent (and it's not on the list) is [[:File:Smile (Art).png|Smile (Art)]], because it's an artwork that, like you said, has a shadow and such. But it wasn't on that list in the first place. Let me check the list for the images Byz has uploaded, and I'll get back on whether the images should be made transparent, but as far as I know those concept art images should be transparent.
'''EDIT:''' I would just check against that list. The images Byz has uploaded as transparent are on that list, but not all concept art images are on that list. I don't know if that answers your concerns enough. That's just how I see it from my point: a bystander on a massive project.}}

{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 22:03, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|persuade=Sounds like we need to establish which art should be transparent and which art should be left white (or have someone knowledgeable explain it to us *cough*Xion*cough).}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=23:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)|text=Yeah, but we'd have to wait for a while. Xion is out for a couple of days.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=04:52, 14 June 2014 (UTC)|talktext=Xion is out for a couple of days. Ha ha. Making in-game references to all the times Xion was asleep?</day193> Aha..ha..I blame the late night driving. >_<

First, I really really don't see the need to go through <big>every. single. image.</big> and resize them. Why? Truth we told, you're taking a already high quality image and making it bigger...So what? We use images throughout the Wiki, yes, but ninety percent of them are resized using <nowiki>[[File:Image.png|200px]]</nowiki>. I'd rather see some activity on the [[Props|num]][[Theater Mode|erous]] [[Forum:MegaProject: Arise|other]] [[Moogle Shop|projects]] [[Forum:Updating our Projects|and]] [[Kingdom Hearts II (manga)|art]][[Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days (manga)|icles]] that need work. I think I would sell a kidney for the 3D Moogle Shop table...

As per your question... I've always considered character artworks (such as [[:File:Young Sora (Art) KH.png]]) and weapons ([[:File:Soul Eater (Art).png]] and [[:File:Stirring Ladle (Art).png]]) to be okay. Images I think should be left alone: artwork images such as [[:File:Smile (Art).png]], and most concept artwork ([[:File:Sora (D23 Expo Japan 2013) Sketch.png]]). What was never as clear to me is the concept artwork. Compare [[:File:Axe Flapper (Art).png]] with [[:File:Sora (Concept) 2 (Art).png]]. Axe Flapper, at least to me, looks fine being transparent. Sora's concept artwork two? Not so much. It doesn't look hideous, but I don't know if being transparent is the way to go.}}
{{Byzantinefire Talk|normal = Large images are good many users upload larger and higher quality versions of all the time like JMAS and i was doing the image renovation to make it up to the KHWiki and its not easy adding many images to 3 wiki's at once.|time=[[User:Byzantinefire|Byzantinefire]] ([[User talk:Byzantinefire|talk]]) 04:57, 14 June 2014 (UTC)}}

{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=17:35, 14 June 2014 (UTC)|text=Xion is right, though, the images aren't ''necessary''. She didn't say stop doing it, but she highlighted the lack of need for it. I like them, personally (secretly, they help me in my [http://www.kingdomheartsfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdom_Hearts_Battle_of_West_Valley <font color=#FFFFFF>endeavours</font>] [http://www.kingdomheartsfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdom_Hearts_III_Part_I:_The_World_at_War <font color=#FFFFFF>to play around</font>] [http://www.kingdomheartsfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdom_Hearts_III_Part_II:_The_Falling_Out <font color=#FFFFFF>with the logos</font>] on Photoshop). Still, that doesn't mean the wiki needs them. And Byz, you don't have to upload them to three wikis. This one is fine, if you really want to, I guess the DisneyWiki. But three? Might be a bit too much. You seem to admit yourself that you'd rather not do it. So don't feel like you have to, unless you want to.

Regarding the issue of this forum, the transparency, I feel it looks great on most of the art. As Xion noted, though, there are some concept artwork that could probably do better without transparency. It seems to be on a case-by-case basis. However, the images Byz has uploaded are all on the list Xion posted, so I feel that at least those seem right.
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{{Byzantinefire Talk|normal= But it gives me an excuse to make the images my own.}}
{{EO|time=18:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)|talktext=But these images are '''not''' yours. I personally feel like taking all this artwork and making it transparent detracts from the "officialism" and original glory of the pieces in question. Making renders and sprites transparent is one thing. Doing it to artwork, however? I don't find it at all necessary. I guess it's because when one makes a render or something extracted from a game transparent for use on the Wiki, that's one thing, because the game is pretty much available to everyone; anyone can take a render of Donald Duck out of ''Kingdom Hearts II'' and pose it to create their own render. But a piece of artwork '''belongs''' to someone. What you're doing here, to me, is equivalent to taking Vincent Van Gogh's ''Starry Night'' and removing the background so you can only and more clearly see the stars and landscape he painted. Maybe the Keyhole and Disney Wiki want the ''Kingdom Hearts'' artwork transparent, but I personally find our images to be fine. I see nothing wrong with leaving the artwork the way it is, since that's how it was released to the world: in its original, non-transparent form.}}
{{Byzantinefire Talk|normal=Well i'm not making the Smile artwork transparent right now or in the future i have been focusing on other images.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=05:10, 15 June 2014 (UTC)|text=I'm not sure if we all learned this through our adventures in formal schooling, real life, and/or Wiki editing, but just because you edit an image [resize, remove a watermark, flip, make transparent, etc.] does not mean you own it. This is why proper licensing and asking for permission are so critically important. Just a reminder.

It seems to me that some of us agree with artwork transparency. What we haven't determined is what artwork qualifies...Meaning we're back at square one. It's apparent that ENX is strictly against any form of artwork transparency. I'm still not quite sure what to make of this. I'm no image expert by any means, but I fail to see how having some artwork such as [[File:Aladdin (Art) KH.png|50px]] or [[File:Rikku (Concept) (Art).png|50px]] destroys or defaces the artwork. All images, sprites, artworks- anything and everything in the game and/or released in promotion/for the game- belongs to someone. Also, most images, even renders released from official sources, come with a white background. Not sure why, some just do. We aren't making images transparent to deliberately destroy or focus on a specific part; most transparencies are done because the excess white backgrounds are unnecessary and/or distracting. Take the images I've previously listed. I fail to see how "deeply"/darkly/clearly outlined artworks, such as Aladdin and Rikku are negatively affected by transparency. The images are either completely colored in or are so well defined in "pencil" that the "cookie-cutter" style of removing the excess white background is not harmful. Now for "lighter" colored/shaded images such as [[:File:Sora (Early Concept) 3 (Art).png]], I think having a white background is helpful so you can clearly see the image. I think we would be better off using a case by case situation.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=11:11, 15 June 2014 (UTC)|talk=I agree with ENX on the large cover/promotional pieces as they are conceptualized this way by the artist (Tetsuya Nomura), meaning taking away the background from them actually harms the images. I'm not sure about the little sketches, they often more sense on white background and because we rarly use them in a thumbnail on the main space it's often unnesserary to crop the white background.<br>
Also Byzantinefire just using the magic wand tool to remove the background is not enough, especially on former jpg images the edges become pixelated which looks worse than before.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=21:02, 15 June 2014 (UTC)|text=So, we're all in agreement with the promotional artwork. Hmm...Well, a uniform "easy" or "simple" policy would be easier than case-by-case, huh? If you guys think it is easier and/or better to have all artwork left alone with the white backgrounds, so be it. I'm up for whatever the community decides.

Shard you know more about images than I do, are you saying we need to revert all of his recent uploads? That's what it sounds like to me. You're the image expert, I agree with whatever you decide.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=20:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)|talk=After rethinking the whole matter yesterday, I'm not for an uniform policy for concept arts/artworks.<br>
We are not an art gallery here (at least that's what I'm telling myself), when it comes down to it, it's all about the respective pages. From my point of view it often helps the flow of an article if some images are cropped, mirrored or made with a transparent background. You could always argue that editing an image takes something away from it, an purist would most likely only prefer them on high contrast backgrounds without touching them at all. I'm still against taking something away from an artwork (like the blue underground in the [[:File:Throne (Art).png|Throne]] artwork) and that some of the sketchiest concept arts make more sense on a white background while the rest can work better here when used like the rest of the images.<br>
If there is really dispute over some of the artworks we can still talk about it, it's not like we have hundreds of them. For the record, we currently use full cropped artworks (like [[:File:Card (Art).png|this]]), half cropped (like [[:File:Sea (Art).png|this]]) and some with full white backgrounds.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=20:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)|text=Then, from most of the people who have currently commented, most would agree with Shard. Also, I think most of us know, at least by now, which artwork needs transparency and which do not. Heh, and even if we don't, I'm sure someone will revert or guide us along the way. ^_^ I'll start checking the transparencies I did a couple of years ago.}}
{{Byzantinefire Talk|time=15:18, June 16|normal=For the record shard i use this http://www.online-image-editor.com/ not a Magic wand button on a Image app.}}

{{ANX219|time=16:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)|text= My transparency method uses GIMP, add an alpha layer (so it gets transparency) and select the background with "select by color" because it's usually white. If pixels in the picture are white (some pixels in the images are transparent, so they are semi-transparent when I get rid of the white--such a PAIN to take for the long way around), I erase all around the image at 1600 zoom, then I check with a black background on another layer under the image, to check for stray pixels. It's quite the time-consuming process. Sora had 14 sprites and I almost gave up since I had to erase everything around the sprite so many times. Frustrating, but I (and possibly others) am satisfied with my results. I believe we shouldn't make any form of artwork transparent, including the logo/promo images like Smile and Throne. The Sea artwork looks nice half transparent, but I prefer the original. I agree with ENX on the part of purism. They might be useful as a transparent for making banners for the Keyblade War or something similar--but they should stay as they are. (I absolutely adore all of the concept artwork!) There can be stray pixels that we might erase that are part of the drawing--you never know.}}