Editing Forum:@&%&@%&$@&$%

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}{{sticky}}

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{{KrytenKoro|emotion=murder|So yeah, the new wikia skin rolled out today. You know those infoboxes that we keep on the right hand side of the page? The page is so badly distorted, they are now on the left-center.

I've left messages with a few of the prominent users on tfwiki, who did the biggest move away and, I think, have been most successful, but I've gotten no replies. Shoutwiki, though, seems to be a free space to host a wiki, and many other wikias are moving there. We can contact them and ask for pointers on how to move.

Take a look at [[Dimension Link]], with your preferences set to new skin. It was a bitch to get that info to fit even on the previous widescreen format. Wikia's BULLSHIT RESPONSE of "Well, you'll have to fix it" is '''''impossible to apply here'''''.

I am....I am beyond furious.

....

The changes they have made are beyond destructive. Honestly, I'm ready to start moving to a new wiki if you guys are good with it.}}

Uh, is it just me, or am I the only one to not see any changes? Or maybe it's that preference thing, where do I choose the option for the new skin? [[User:17master|17master]] 16:25, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

{{ST|text=go to preferences, go to skin, and click new wiki look, and you will witness with horror as all pages suddenley only take up a quarter of your frikkin screen. whose dumb idea was this piece of $#!+!!!!!!!!!!}}

{{KrytenKoro|emotion=murder|Please see [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Wikia%27s_New_Look this], guys. Depending on what our traffic is, ShoutWiki may not be the best target, and if we do move, we need to keep our own copies of the database, updating monthly and held by several editors.}}

{{17m|time=16:56, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|angry= oooh... glossy.... waith, where the heck did the main page gone to? what the, the game's icons are now covering the link to gallery section! (Sora's page) And why are there usernames scattered all over the article...? what the duck, there are almost no difference in section's heading and it's contains! whoa, whoa, whoa the format is freaking scr*wed! this is worse than I thought it would be! O_O"}}
{{Dan da Man36|time=16:57, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|halloween=I can only think of one word to describe the "New Wikia Look". Horrid. Simply Horrid. This is really pointless, with the "Photos uploaded onto this wikia" feature, the actual article text takes up, what 20% of the on-screen space? I'll take monaco any day...

I must ask, is this going to be the default skin for all unregistered accounts, or is it possible to set monaco as the default skin?}}
{{MM841|17:45, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|Wow, this new skin is horrible. It's angry mob with pitchforks time. I origonally thought it might be O.K, but after I actually saw it in action, I want to vomit over the Wikia staff. I am now fine with us moving, this is horrible.}}

{{Organization 13|mad=*Sharpens pitchfork.}}
{{SC|time=19:20, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|mad=I told you guys. I '''TOLD''' you this skin sucked. What do we do now?

Commence with desctruction and chaos, and anarchy.

...Or we could find a peaceful solution. Either way, I've got the bricks, chainsaws, and goat sacrifices.}}
{{JFHavoc|time=19:28, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|angry=What the ****? Half of the page isn't even there anymore! God ****ing damnit. =_= We need to do something about this, ''fast''.}}
{{EO|time=19:44, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|annoyed=I don't get it. Won't moving to a new Wiki just cause the changes to carry over to it, as well? Or are we going to go through the pain-staking process of creating a Wikipedia-style Wiki? I honestly think we should get a petition-type thing going to send to Wikia before we consider a move. Better to be civilized than act only on rash actions. Not saying I'm okay with the new skin, it's absolutely terrible! But I'm very confused about all this.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=19:47, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|text=Pretty much everyone has been doing that, ENX. There have been several petitions. The vast majority of feedback comments to this during the development stages was overwhelmingly negative (and well-thought out and worded negative comments at that). Wikia just doesn't give a damn.}}
{{JFHavoc|time=19:50, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|angry=I'm all for being civilized, but this is metaphorically the same to when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We are ''past'' the point of negotiating. We've gotta get a ****ing ATOMIC BOMB, and DROP IT RIGHT ON THOSE ********!}}

OR, we could find a completely blank wiki farm and have some of our more HTML oriented users screw around with the coding...  {{The Inexistentsig}}

{{J.Severe|text=Well, I'm on the Kingdom Hearts Wiki right now with the new Wiki skin and I've officially NEVER been more disgusted in my entire life. I'm about to leave a stern message on one of Wikia's blog right now and try to reason with them. I may fail, but... eh, ya never know.}}
{{neumannz|time=22:50, October 6, 2010 (UTC)|angry=OH GOD-WHAT THE HELL-DAMNIT. KILL IT WITH FIRE!

So, do we start looking at destinations, or do we wait for a bit and see if Wikia finally caves to pressure?}}
{{DTN|time=01:22, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Good news: Oasis can be turned off in your preferences back to Monaco.

Bad news: Starting early November, that will no longer be an option.

We have about a month left with Monaco before it is completely destroyed, and is no longer available to any Wikia wiki. If Wikia continues to not show any concern for what its editors are telling them, I would suggest that we move. We are not providing our information in a quality fashion while restricted to the New Wikia Look. True, we could customize the skin to be something similar to what we used to have, but the main issues are the spacing, additional Wikia-based boxes to the right, and the restraint of our ability to customize our wiki.

I suggest that we wait until the change happens across all Wikia, however. Until then, feel free to get ''ready'' to move, but we should wait until we actually see if Wikia makes any changes to their final product. I detest this new skin so very, very much, and I think all wikis planning to leave Wikia are justified in their self-exodus. However, better safe than sorry. Several wikis are going to stick around to make sure that we aren't going to miss out on anything.}}
{{KrytenKoro|DTN has hit the nail on the head. We should spend this time ''planning'' the move: finding an acceptable host, working out issues with ads and css if necessary, making the database dumps, etc. However, we should wait until the very last week before starting the exodus, and give wikia every chance to pull their heads out of their bombadier.}}

{{Uxie|time=09:51, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=If they plan to disable the current skin forever, then the Spyro Wiki is off to Shoutwiki. Why can't the staff see that nobody wants the new skin. I'd be happier if they cancel this whole upgrade. If they ignore us, then they will see that only a few wikis remain.}}

{{17m|time=10:02, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text= Looks like Bleach Wiki won't be going anywhere. I think they decided to 'go along' with the new upgrade. I hope when we and the other wiki moved the wikia's admins will beg for us to come back since there are less than 10 active wikia lol.}}

{{Uxie|time=10:22, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=You're right! If they decide to use Oasis and disable Monaco forever, they will find themselves empty, lonely, forgotten and hated. I hope they change their minds when they find out that 99% of their wikis don't want the Oasis skin. I heard that WikiSimpsons is planing to move away.}}
{{Xion4ever|time=12:19, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=Nice to see a "wonderful" change to the wiki. -_-
Agreed with DTN's message. One thing, does anyone think Central Wikia will remove the skin [soon]? Right now, they're having a trial period (that's why each individual user can choose whether they want to use the skin or not, momentarily). My point in saying is, should we spam Central Wikia talk pages/forums about the bloody skin until early November (hopefully they listen). OR do we wait a week or two ("using" the new skin, of course) then spam Central Wikia with complaints saying "We waited <insert weeks/days here>. We still don't like it! <insert rant here>" If we start complaining now, they're most likely to say "Just try the skin for once. Don't automatically toss it out; give it a trial period, that's longer than one day."  

Another thing under hopes that Central Wikia removes the horrid thing, if they plan to remove it later this month (they might, there's always that chance), I'd hate to see all our preparations for moving time go to waste. Just a thought. Overall, I'm all for starting moving preparations. If there's anything I can do with my current, low, activity, just tell me!}}

{{BlackSoulBlade|text=I say we spam them now, the new skin causes more strain on my eyes, which leads to a painful-as-hell migraine.}}

{{Uxie|time=12:31, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text=I visited the Central Wiki today; many wikis are furious! Some have annonced that ether the staff cancel the cancelation of the Monaco skin or they move to ether ShoutWiki or become independet wikis. ZACH and I are planing to move to ShoutWiki if the staff don't listion to anyone and add that skin.

I just hope that more people will spam them into keeping Monaco. That staff should not be so selfish when it comes to changing to a skin everyone hates and deleating the ones everyone loves, y'know.}}

{{17m|time=12:58, October 7, 2010 (UTC)|text= either they're stupid or they just don't care about us for not keeping the monaco skin}}

[http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Athena32 Just click here] and sign your name to show that you are aganst this whole nonsence. [[User:UxieLover1994|<font color="gold">Uxie</font>]]<small>[[User talk:UxieLover1994|<font color="gray">Lover</font>]]</small>[http://spyro.wikia.com/wiki/User:UxieLover1994 <font color="red">1994</font>] 14:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

{{BebopKate|time=01:37, October 8, 2010 (UTC)|text=Okay, so I decided to check out the new interface.  Holy crap...it's crap.

The old interface was intuitive, with stuff easy to find, yet allowed for individual styling and adapted to the screen space to fill the page with information.  The new style?  Hard to navigate and not at all easy to figure out.  They've stripped away most of the individual flavor of each wiki.  And they now highlight advertising over information.

But the locked screen width?  That's the killer in my book.  Along with screwing up the tables and formatting (as previously mentioned), it makes everything really hard to read on my widescreen monitor, because everything appears smaller.  And I'm glad all you young'uns are noting this, because then it's not just the crazy old woman ranting away.

I'm not sure what Wikia is hoping to achieve with this reformat.  If it's ease of reading and accessibility, it doesn't provide that in the least.  If it's making a more "professional" appearance, it really doesn't do that either; professional doesn't mean boring.  But if it's putting their name and ads front and center, it's achieved it's goals.  I understand it's a free service and they need to recoup costs, but if I can't use it, then I won't visit.

I'm not one for sporadic movement, but if the flexibility of the old system isn't returned or made an option, I'm frankly all for heading out, too.  Wikia had a good thing going; I don't understand why they decided to stubbornly plow ahead instead of listening to the editors who use their tools.

By sheer coincidence, does this reformatting remind anyone else of [http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/110957/gap-changes-logo-why?mod=family-kids_parents The Gap's crappy new logo]?}}

Okay, probably shouldn't be here, but what site are you guys moving to in the end? Winx Club Wiki's moving to shoutwiki, and from what I hear, if you import, the skin is barely affected at all. At least, that's what I heard for the banner-across-the-screen thing like we have, and I'm bet it holds true for simpler designs like yours. Oops, didn't mean to ramble. I just wanted to find out where you were moving so I could continue to visit here, this is one of the best wikis I've seen.   [[User:Roxy13|<span style="color:springgreen;background:mediumslateblue;">Roxy13</span>]]~[[User talk:Roxy13|<span style="color:mediumslateblue;background:springgreen;">Dad, I'm a fairy!</span>]] 01:00, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

we haven't decided yet, but we considered on moving to ShoutWiki [[User:17master|17master]] 09:20, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

{{Galexgan|time=10:54, October 9, 2010 (UTC)|terra2= It looks like a dull grey news article instead of an established Wiki... As said before, all customization and organization is out the window. @BebopKate: Dunno, but it reminds me of the dingy idea to change friendly and wild Sy-Fy channel to dull grey plain Sci-Fi... Where's the flare? The pizzaz? The special thing that makes it unique from all the others? This goes for both changes in my opinion.}}

{{Uxie|time=13:04, October 9, 2010 (UTC)|text=So many non-Wikia wikis...

:ShoutWiki - Dull, but everyone's talking about it...

:NIWA - Well, some of our games are on Nintendo Consoles...

Pritty hard to decide, y'know!}}

Whoa, guys, we have overlooked the most difficult but most useful idea.  ''We start from scratch''.  Now, I know there would be problems, but just a few of the things that could happen if we chose this course of action:
*No one would have to run it constantly.  We could have several bots... maybe even one for each namespace.  In addition, we could have one [[wikipedia:Catch that Rabbit|bot that acts as a leader]].
*We could eliminate the "my home" feature and replace it with two different recent changes pages.  One for userspace and talkspace, and one for all of the other namespaces, including templatespace.
*You know how with the Monaco look, there is the "what's hot on Wikia" and the bottom things that recommend other wikis, well, if we retain the current layout we have, we could replace those with ads... targeted ads (possibly another bot].
*Of course, if someone wanted to change the theme, they would have to tell the programmer(s) to do it.  We probably wouldn't have a simple non HTML interface.

Well, I'm sure I have more things that I forgot to list... but, yeah... that's about it.  Any suggestions?  Concerns?  {{The Inexistentsig}}
{{SC|time=14:07, October 9, 2010 (UTC)|mad=Honestly, guys, we're taking this too far. The wiki can be made better. Example?

<center>[[User:SilverCrono/wikia.css]]</center>

Yep, that's it. Just copy and paste that code to your own page. Simple, just do '''User:<username>/wikia.css'''

I know it's not a wiki-wide solution, but this code works. How? Well,

*It allows you to change page width to whatever you want it to be- I put mine at 1000 pixels instead of 300.
*It takes away those horrible sidebars and Facebook crap that takes up 75% of the screen.
*It allows better functuality overall.

I know it doesn't solve the big problem, but it's just a short term solution. This is big, yeah, but moving... That's even bigger. I say we stay here and find a way to make it work.}}
:Silver, you keep forgetting that this will still make the articles look like tosh to our readers. That is simply not acceptable.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 15:28, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I remembered the other thing I forgot earlier.  Your text could be retained separately when you get an edit conflict.  {{The Inexistentsig}}

{{The Inexistent|angry='''WHY HAVE THESE DISUSSIONS DIED DOWN?  THIS IS IMPORTANT STUFF GUYS!!!'''}}

{{WS|time=01:01, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=YeaH> We need to decide whether to move or not. if we do move, we need to figure out a free domain or soome other alternative.}}

{{Bluer|13:17, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|Personally I'm giving this skin a chance. After all, it's not like we all paid Wikia for the space they have hosted for us. It's really understandable why Wikia didn't give in to the demands of its current users.

If the community decides to move out, I wish them the best of luck. All are well-to-do people with enough money to pay for independent servers, right? I'm surprised the KHWiki community didn't consider going independent earlier, if that was the case. If the community finds a free server, then it's all the better. 

Best of luck to us all, in any case.

p/s: I wonder if that Wikia adware virus is going all out now that we have ads strewn everywhere with the new skin.}}

{{17m|time=13:55, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|angry= whoa, whoa, whoa, VIRUS?! Now THAT's another reason for us to leave this wiki -_-}}
{{KrytenKoro|We are also drawing in the readers, and acting as an unpaid workforce. Most hosts let ''you'' receive the money from ads, and then you pay them for hosting - we are getting nothing, and still doing most of the work. To be frank, we don't owe wikia anything.

However, guys - anyone who wants to move, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE WIKI FARM COMPARISONS. While it is possible for us to be fully independent, I don't think we should be forcing staff to literally own the wiki (and that might rub people the wrong way, too), so we should be comparing the wiki farms for quality. Wikipedia has a page listing wiki farms and comparing them - please, everyone, start discussing that.}}

{{17m|time=14:52, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|text= Personally, I prefer ShoutWiki}}

{{WS|time=21:30, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=Well at Sonic Fanon we're leaving because of viruses, a confusing layout, smaller space for the articles, and Health issues. So, it's alot more than a bad design.}}
	
{{SannseTalk|time=22:38, October 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=Hi, Viruses?  Any site can get attacks, but we haven't had one in quite a while.  I [http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Sannse/Kicking_malware_to_the_curb wrote a blog post] about this a while back.

For the rest... yes, I know it's pretty different.  A big change for everyone.  But one thing I'd like to say is that this is a work in progress.  We are still working on changes as we get feedback and start to give information from click-tracking and so on.  One thing we are looking at is a special unit that could take infoboxes in to the right column.  And we are looking at how to better handle big tables.  It's worth remembering that if they are too big for the new layout, they are ''already'' broken for many screen resolutions... but we are talking about some other solutions that may help.

And the last thing I want to encourage, is for admins to try customizing the wiki.  The blue and white look is the default (like the old "sapphire") but you can make it look very different.  Have a look at [[w:c:communitytest|Community Test]], or anyone can try out the tool at [[w:c:themedesigner|themedesigner.wikia]] (even if you aren't an admin).  I know this doesn't resolve all your worries, but I hope you'll try it anyway}}

Yeah, but there's the thing.  You ask for feedback, and we give it.  What is the common response?  '''Make it an option'''.  Do yoy listen? I think you know the answer.  {{The Inexistentsig}}

[[File:Prt 2.png|300px]] - So, yeah.  I only had like 10 minutes to make this, but I'll update it <small>hopefully...</small>.  Mainly, it is exactly what Monaco is right now, which is the point.  If we were to found our own site, I would recommend use of the MediaWiki software.  I was also thinking (but didn't have time to) that we could have the background banner go all of the way to the bottom of the screen.  So... anyone can update the file to what they think it should look like...  {{The Inexistentsig}}

{{KKD|time=01:11, October 13, 2010 (UTC)|link=I really hate to say this, guys, but I don't think we should leave as soon as the new look is implemented, if at all. I think we should give them one month, starting November 3rd. If everything still sucks come December, we leave, no questions asked. Not that I like the new skin at all, but we may as well give them a chance. A small one, but a chance.}}

{{ST|text=i agree, might as well try it out in day-to-day before we refute it completely, (although im sure the end result will probably be the same) and hey, maybe if we're lucky within this one month Wikipedia might actually open their ears and listen to us about it, fat chance i know, but it's worth a shot}}

Whoa whoa whoa, who said we were moving right away?  The reason this forum was created was for moving, yes, ''but'', we need to figure out what to do before we move.  That includes reviewing other wiki farms, starting our own site, or manipulating Oasis enough to make it work.  Yes, we will give it a try, but, no matter how good it is, we will all be automatically pre- disposed to it.  Tough luck for Wikia.  {{The Inexistentsig}}

{{iZerox|time=02:09, October 13, 2010 (UTC)|mad=I came to check the Wiki only to find it severely broken for me. I tried viewing it both on my pc, laptop and cell phone and it looks real broken on each. I can't even navigate the site properly because the entire side bar on the left is gone. Am I the only one experiencing this or is Wikia begun Armageddon?

This is how it appears for me:
<gallery>
File: KHWikiBroken.jpg
</gallery>

It makes the wiki almost unusable for me. also it's not in the screenshot but the words WikiaWikiaWikiaWikiaWikia are repeated at the top of the screen.}}

It's everyone. P.S. I'm Wh!te$tar.

{{ST|text=yeah and it's getting rather annoying}}
{{BebopKate|time=02:21, October 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=Ah, so it's not only me, then.

I'd try changing my preferences to see if the other ones work, but I can't reach the preferences button because the links overlap.  *sigh*

Anyway, and for the record, I'm for waiting to see if changes are made in the new format to accommodate our issues.  However, I would only be serious about moving if the really big issues continued.

And now, back to trying to figure out what the heck is going on.}}

Yeah, especially since it freezes every 10 seconds...  {{The Inexistentsig}}

{{neumannz|time=02:26, October 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=I have it, too, although I haven't had any freezing. Fortunately I still have my "Recent Changes" page open from before it went wonky, so I can still use it normally, but godflameit, what is effing wrong with Wikia?}}

{{ST|text=nevermind, its back to normal}}
{{KrytenKoro|That has nothing to do with the change-over, it's just the css failing to load.

KKD: the period to "give them a chance" is NOW. The new wikia skin is active, take a look at what it does to our pages. Nov 3 is when we are ''fucked'' if we still wanted to leave.

Seriously, guys, we need to stop just saying "I do/don't want to leave", and look at ''what would actually need to be done''.

Now, most of the main wiki farms are quite different from our format, but allow much more freedom in coding, so if we had someone with extreme code skill, we could go to places like wikidot, pbworks, etc. Shoutwiki only has one server (going on two), but is pretty much exactly like us, so we could easily move there. There's also the option of private hosting, but again, we'd need someone with extreme code skill.

Important links:
*[http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal] - look specifically at "arriving, leaving, complaints"
*[http://wikkii.com/wiki/Free_Wiki_Hosting] - completely free, set up with mediawiki, easy to transfer to. Not sure how big they are, though, since they aren't even mentioned on wikipedia.
*[http://www.ssbwiki.com/Main_Page SmashWiki] has already moved, and we should definitely get in touch with their staff to find out what they did, what they learned, and how to use anything they can tell us.

These are the main options I've found. I don't think any of are really code savvy enough to deal with a non mediawiki-compatible host, so this should be our list of options. PLEASE take a look at them, and give your thoughts on pros and cons.}}

{{Soxra|text=For the record, the Wikia skin is horrendous and should be put to death. +1 for moving...

That out of the way, Wikkii looks like the best one available right now, aside from getting a private server. But that means advertisements or donations and considering the age bracket of our users that's probably not a possibility. I think that the problems highlighted in the TFWiki move can mostly be mitigated with a cautious approach to the move--crossing all the Ts, dotting all the Is.

A non-mediawiki 3rd party host is almost a definite no; I've done coding for stuff like that before. It's a nightmare and a half.

Unfortunately I don't know anyone at SmashWiki nor have I ever had to move a Wiki page before, despite having run a few. In theory everything can be copied over save for the user accounts (because those are all held by Wikia), but in practice I think we definitely need to have a plan before we start transferring database entries.|time=<span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span><span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span><span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 16:47, October 14, 2010 (UTC)}}
{{JFHavoc|time=17:21, October 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=We've worked really hard to make the KHWiki what it is, I say if we move somewhere we want to go to a place that allows us to keep a very similar appearance. Also, the less massive coding we need to do the better. It's easier on everyone.}}
Um, which other wikis were told about this, and has anyone told the Tokyo Mew Mew wiki yet? My two cents on this skin is that it looks very, VERY, bad. I'll miss Monaco.--[[User:Bettafishrule2579|Bettafishrule2579]] 01:54, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

{{GrandPyromania|time=12:03, October 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm not sure how valid my input is here, but imo, you guys should go to Wiki, as Wiki is generally better looked upon then Wikia. If you need to, I am in contact with the ZeldaUniverse webmaster, and I can also get in contact with the entire NIWA network.. so that's no problem in terms of that.}}

{{Uxie|time=12:02, October 18, 2010 (UTC)|text=Dudes, the staff just turned off the Sidenotice at all wikis. The same thing just happened at the SW.}}

{{17m|time12:24, October 18, 2010 (UTC)|text= forgive me for being a noob, but, what's a sidenotice?}}

:The thing that use to be on top of the pages, where certain notice was published. [[User:UxieLover1994|<font color="gold">Uxie</font>]]<small>[[User talk:UxieLover1994|<font color="gray">Lover</font>]]</small>[http://spyro.wikia.com/wiki/User:UxieLover1994 <font color="red">1994</font>] 12:34, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
{{Keyblade0|time= 20:45, October 19, 2010|shocked=Why would they take off the sidenotices?}}

{{ShardofTruth|time=11:24, October 20, 2010 (UTC)|sad=I hate the new skin like the next one, mostly because the limited article width and some of the new "features". But because we don't have 80,000+ articles we won't get a [http://www.wowwiki.com/Forum:Should_WoWWiki_leave_Wikia%3F#Wikia_Update special treatment] from the Wikia staff.
If we're moving to another host, there are two main problem apart from the diffucult database moving itself:
#Traffic: It affects everything important, namely costs and avaiability. I don't know how large the traffic of the KHWiki is, but there could be problems on other wiki farms like ShoutWiki (which is definitely not good a place to move at, from all the comments I read). Hosting the wikia somewhere different might produce costs, the can not be paid through advertisement alone. We're all contributing on this wikia for free, we're getting nothing for it, so we should definitely not pay for it in return.
#Old wiki: As you can read [http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Moving_Forward here], the old KHwiki will stay here the same way we leave it, deleting pages, even it it's the will of all editors and admins, will be considerd as vandalism by the Wikia staff and reverted. So there will be basically two wikis, which kind of misses the point of moving and is an insult to all editors on top.}}

{{17master|text= Okay, I opened the KHWiki and the new skin is suddenly applied, like, automatically. Does this happen to everyone?}}

{{Kog981|text= I can't take any more this new skin, just looking at some pages like Sora or BBS, that's creepy me out. 

Eh... You guys decide to move? With everything you guys done?}}

{{Uxie|time=13:03, October 20, 2010 (UTC)|text=Grr, [[w:c:finalfantasy:Wakka|now I'm mad]]! This skin has ruined this wiki, and the SW!

Now that the new skin is up and running, I have decided to move the Spyro Wiki to ShoutWiki. If anyone wants to join us, be my guest!}}


{{DDark|time=[[User:D.Dark.|D.Dark.]] 14:37, October 20, 2010 (UTC)|text=Aww crap! The new skin looks like crap! You know what you would find if you would look up crap in the dictionary? This skin! Its weird tough, I did not get this skin a few days ago like you all did, I came to the wikia a few minutes ago to find this rotten piece of cabbage sitting right there mocking me square in the face. Thankfully after reading previous posts I found out I could revert it.
Anyway, this is big trouble, you guys seem to be...handling it but I don't think some of us..less caffine and sleepless editors (you know the ones who don't have thousands of edits)) could really adapt to the situation of moving. Overall no one can really adapt to this decomposed baby fat. I'm not saying it enough but the skin is CRAP! Ugh pleeaaase Main Wiki Staff guys thingys people DON'T CHANGE IT TO THAT PIECE OF CRAP!  }}

{{ST|text=ok, so after they decided to switch it to Oasis automatically for us all i decided to try and navigate the wiki as is and try and deal with it, and now i can't help but wonder: WHAT THE HELL WIKIA!!!!  Are the people who run this thing listening to ''anything'' the protestors are saying? I would love to hear their reasons for putting this piece of crap as the permanent skin. I'd be cool with it if it was optional, that way if you like it, fine, if you don't, that's fine to. We shouldn't have to be forced to look at this POS. Wake up, Wiki, you're gonna lose a Helluva lot of business for this}}
{{KrytenKoro|Re:Shard - I'm very interested to know who WoWwiki is moving to, because if they can handle WoWwiki, they can absolutely handle us.

As for the old wiki concern - as long as the top-content producing editors move along with the wiki, that will cease to be a concern pretty soon. As you can see with [[w:c:transformers|the transformers wiki]], the wikia version quickly fell into the rubbish bin when the top editors moved away and left the old address to anyone who wanted it. Yes, Google favors wikia and wikipedia, but only to an extent, and once we make our site the premier place (and keep up our affiliations, very important!), we will replace them. We could even go further by seeking out affiliations with other KH-related sites, including webcomics (ex: Ansem Retort).}}
{{KrytenKoro|Also - to circumvent the "advertising" concern - when we move, we should not post "Hey, come to our new address". We should post something along the lines of "The previous editors of this wiki have moved to a new address, (link). Anyone visiting this site is free to to edit it as they wish and build their own community, or may join the previous community at its new location. If you would like to inquire about obtaining staff rights, please contact (wikia staff member<!-- whose inbox we want to swamp-->). This notice will be removed (three months later)." That cannot be construed as advertising the new site - it is merely stating where everyone has gone, and if anything advertises the ''current site'' -

so when wikia takes it down and bans the person who put it up there, like they've been doing on other wiki's, it's just more proof that they are power-mad despots.}}

OH DEAR GOD. The new wikia skin sucks.I was so confused at where everything is that I just turned it off. :P [[User:UltimateExplosiveHeartless]]
{{Dan da Man36|time=20:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC)|halloween=Has anyone else noticed that [http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb8/kingdomhearts/images/8/89/Wiki-wordmark.png this] image is appearing instead of the trio logo? Why is that?}}
:'cause Sannse put it there.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 21:13, October 20, 2010 (UTC)
::Alright... Why...? {{User:Dan da Man36/Sig}} 21:18, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

{{The Inexistent|angry='''This load of bullsh*t is really pissing me off.  All they say is random responses.  "It's being worked on" or "Deal with it"... my ass!  They just don't listen.  And, from what I've read above, we can't agree on any place to move, because, let's face it guys, up until the new skin, Wikia was the best wikifarm out there.  Oh, and dan, it's because we wouldn't give in and make a new logo.'''}}

{{17m|angry= seriously, I'm getting the pitchfork}}

{{SannseTalk|time=15:45, October 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=Dan: I wanted to give an example of how the Monaco theme and logo could be transferred over (and I actually like fiddling around with logos and backgrounds in my spare time)

The Inexistent: We listen, but we can't always do what people ask us to.  Here's an example: we've had editors say they don't like the new horizontal navigation.  But our usability guys said it would work better, and so we went with it.  This is ''very'' early data -- but it looks like click tracking is showing that the new navigation is used by visitors twice as much as the old.  So what editors say is part of all this, and there's been changes because of that.  Then there's data, and testing, and so on.... which is why it all takes time.}}

{{ST|text=Ok, quick note, i'm not sure if this is a glitch with oasis or something, but everytime i scroll down on a page it pops back up to the top after a couple of seconds, again not sure if that's just a glitch with oasis or my computer or what. On another note, here's my thing: Why does Oasis have to be the required skin? if you want it to be an option or even be the default skin, that's fine, but at least give us the ''choice'' of going back. I would have no further complaints if we simply don't ''have'' to use this}}

{{Soxra|text=''"Why does Oasis have to be the required skin? if you want it to be an option or even be the default skin, that's fine, but at least give us the choice of going back."''

Yeah. That's what this whole debacle is about. Them forcing their crap on us. As for the glitch, just blame it on the fact that A) Oasis is much slower to load and B) it's just terrible in general.|time=<span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span><span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span><span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 16:05, October 21, 2010 (UTC)}}
{{LevL|time=17:54, October 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=Sannse: I understand that you cannot always do what people want you to do. But this is different. I have not seen anybody who said that he/she liked the new skin. It seems as though almost everybody is complaining about it. And yet you choose to change it, only because some Wikia guys think this will work better? Apparently you do not really care what the users think. Something is not better only because more people click on it. And even if the horizontal navigation is better than what we have now, there are plenty of other things that are worse than they are now.

Have you ever considered to make the new skin optional? I hope you did. I hope you ''do''. Seriously, if you do not want to ruin Wikia, you should make this skin optional, otherwise you will lose a big part of you community.}}

Well, if one user's breaking out the pitchfork, then I'm grabbing my... oh, wait. I don't have a weapon. I have claws. I'll go buy a torch. *brick'd* [[User:UltimateExplosiveHeartless]]

{{iZerox|time=22:20, October 21, 2010 (UTC)|sad=I hear many people saying mean and even hateful things. I understand their opinions and I also dislike the skin. But I'd like to think about this rationally. Sannse, did you ever consider the fact that perhaps the upper navigation gets more clicks because users are more confused by it? Perhaps the increase in clicks is directly related to the confusion on the end of us users. Perhaps the original side navigation is just so neatly organized that it can be used to navigate efficiently to where you want to go and then easily to other pages from the new page without the sidebar because you were able to get where you wanted to go in the first place?

I'm just trying to approach the issue from another angle. And I also agree that the skin should be optional and not forced.}}


So, as a completely comupter-dummy and only reader, how do I get the old Look of the KH-wiki back???
The new one is just awful and just badly arranged. The entire order of the wiki is messed up...same applies for Final Fantasy wiki and wookiepedia... [[Special:Contributions/93.223.143.93|93.223.143.93]] 10:32, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

{{Uxie|time=11:22, October 22, 2010 (UTC)|text=''Hate that skin, hate that skin!''

Seroiusly, I hate it so much! So does ZACH and Aura24. I have moved my Wiki (Spyro Wiki) to ShoutWiki, but even though it's far better than Wikia, it's far harder to edit there. Not to mention that the recent changes is very ugly. Another thing: if you was to keep the title as '''Kingdom Hearts Wiki''' there, you have to add '''Wiki''' at the end. I am not saying that you shoud move to ShoutWiki, but if you do, just tell me and I will help you.

Also, I checked out the Wiki list on top of pages while under Oasis; Though I can now check out the wikis that I love, I just hate how the articles are crushed like a hoon's car. I am just about ready to scream (and not because of [[Jack Skellington]]'s awsome Halloween tricks, but because of this controversy all over these sites!)}}

{{The Inexistent|sad='''So... Sans... you're saying that when Project Runway left Bravo and moved to Lifetime, losing so much that they had worked for, listening to the fans in the first place was a bad idea?  And what about when Coke started making New Coke?  Even though all statistics said "it will be better than the original", it failed and was accompanied by much outrage.  Is that what Wikia will become?  A washed up company that has to go to its old ways in shame?'''}}

{{SannseTalk|time=02:30, October 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=ShadowsTwilight: That glitch should be fixed now, it was something to do with how the skin was loading on IE
On keeping Monaco as an option: that would mean us putting a lot of our resources in to it.  When we upgrade the wiki software, we would have to do everything twice to make sure both versions work.  And as we develop new features of improve existing ones, we would have to go back to Monaco to make sure it all worked there.  It's just not practical to maintain two advanced, complex skins instead of putting all our time and effort in to the new one.
LevL:  This is a difficult time for all of us I think.  A big change is hard, and what we don't want to do is simply react to the initial comments without giving everyone time to get used to what's going on.  And we ''really'' want to be sure that we don't miss the voices of the "silent majority", that's why click tracking and other ways of "hearing" what people are saying matter too. (And, yes, we have had people say they love the new look... and I'm genuinely one of them... although I know it might sound like I'm saying that just because I'm staff)
iZerox: we don't know what it means yet... or even if it's a real effect :) it's way too early to tell that.  I just wanted to share that because it shows the sort of thing we are looking at.  We need to look at feedback ''and'' what happens in practice.}}

{{The Inexistent|dl='''Oh, and next time you guys are going past my user page or are in the new skin, take a look at my page.  The tiny space smashes all of the page together.  ''But'' here's the kicker.  There is nothing on the right side of the page on my browser.  ''Nothing''.  Just white space, where my page could be spread out a little more.'''}}

{{ST|text=Sorry, Sannse, still jumping, and Inexistent, I know right, with everything all compressed and all that space wasted. It's like that on all the User pages and even on the articles. Sure there isn't as much space wasted on the articles, but there is still plenty that could be taken up by the actual article}}

{{Uxie|time=11:39, October 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=Well, you cannot convert UxieLover, even if you try.

I understand that you cannot handel two skins at once, but why put the rotten skin on when everybody hates it? All you just want to do is make eveyone love it. Tough luck; the Spyro Wiki is leaving. Sorry to be so rude, but I am very upset.}}

{{LapisScarab|time=16:00, October 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=@Sannse: Really? People have said they ''love'' it? A challenge: prove it. I garuntee that for every user that supposedly loves this skin I can give you at least a dozen users that don't. As far as I'm concerned the "silent majority" (and the majority has been ''far'' from silent) doesn't exist. If there are people who like this skin and can come up with good reasons for why to keep it, it's ''their'' responsibility to speak up. As of now, it just seems like you're trying to make some imaginary support for the skin.

Don't give me this crap about how having two skins is "too complicated". Right now there's ''three'', Monobook, Monaco, and Oasis. I realize that you alone aren't responsible for this, and I know we're kind of beating you up here, but I'm on my last nerve. You aren't listening to us, you're just being patronizing. 

And that scrolling glitch is still sort of going on. It only happens once every time I load the page and it may just be that I'm scrolling down too fast too early, but it's yet another problem that didn't exist with Monaco.}}

{{ST|text=It doesn't even happen just when scrolling, i think it happens every time the page reloads. Go to a page with tabs in the infobox. every time you click on a tab, it jumps straigh back to the top. And, i agree, "silent majority" sounds like a term used by someone who can't accept their own failures}}

I'm not joking about that "for every one who likes it there's 12 who dislike it" thing. Say you found ten people that absolutely loved it. I don't care if they're staff or not, they just ''love'' this skin. Well, [http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Athena32 here's] 108 people, and counting, that don't.{{User:LapisScarab/Sig}}18:40, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

{{Soxra|mad=Sannse, firstly I'd like to say that I admire you for having the courage to actually post on our forum thread about this. It takes guts to step into the crossfire of one of the largest issues we've faced on Wikia in recent history.

With that being said, I want to say that I have to agree with LapisScarab. Honestly, it does not feel like ANYone is saying they love it. I've seen revolt here, and on the AWA... just Google "Wikia oasis skin" and you will see how many hosted Wikis have considered moving (that's right--moving, leaving, 86-ing, whatever you want to call it) because of this enforcement.

Why even create the new skin to begin with? It doesn't even sport local Wiki logos (like our little icon of Ventus & co. up there in the top left). If you can't handle supporting two skins (which you can, by the way--Monaco & Monobook), then don't make more and force us to move.

Take a look at [[User:Soxra|my userpage]] using the Oasis skin, then look again using the Monobook skin; then, tell me it looks as good or better on Oasis. You can't.

Here's what you should have done, and still should. If you want to instate a new skin, make a vote open to all Wikis. Each Wiki can hold a poll and their admin can give you a yay/nay from the masses. I bet if you had done this, it never would have gotten this far. I'd bet ''a lot'' on that.

So this is just my $0.02 but based on reactions across the board I'd say I'm not the only person thinking it. I'm glad you came here to give your little speech but now it's time for a response--justification of what you're doing. All our cards are on the table; it's time to show your hand.|time=<span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span><span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span><span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 18:45, October 23, 2010 (UTC)}}

{{TalkSephiroth0812|text=I can only second Soxra's statement. I've looked around a bit and also in the german branch of wikia I've noticed nearly all reactions were mostly negative. Even some unregistered users complained in comments that they can't read their favorite wikis properly anymore because the articles are messed up with symbols and images overlapping. Worse is they're stuck with the new skin and don't even have a chance to revert it...}}

{{Galexgan|time=02:24, October 24, 2010 (UTC)|terra2=@Sansse: The silent majority was the Tea Party'ers before they made their movement, if there is a silent majority for this skin then they aren't only being silent they've freakin gone into exile to live as hermits because not only are they not being heard but their not seen anywhere either.}}

{{Uxie|time=02:37, October 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't think she's going to listion, anymore. I've already created some nooses for those who love the skin of Darkness!}}

{{17m|text= Just because you have the power, doesn't mean you won't listen to what people said. You're trying to make improvements for the wikias right? But here is what happened: '''It Failed'''. It's clear that a lot of people don't like the new skin, and yet you're forcing us to use the skin. What are you trying to proof really? That the new skin will be better than the older ones? If that's what you're thinking then you need to look at it from our perspective. Sure it looks nicer with the gloss and stuff, but it's not efficient. We're trying to give informations here, not showing off with good looks and stuff. If you can make the wikia look good AND efficient, then that's fine, we'll happily use that skin, but as I mentioned before, the new skin caused too much problem, it's not efficient, people won't be reading our articles because it's so messy. Think about that, will you? I know the staffs put a lot of hard work into this, but this is not working out. I know we never give you anything in return for the services you provide us, but what's the use of making changes and improvements if the majority of us won't like it or even use it?}}
i like the new skin[[Special:Contributions/76.108.34.28|76.108.34.28]] 16:44, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

{{OavatosDK|time=16:57, October 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=At the very least why can't wikia let all wikis set Monobook as the default? Why should Unencyclopedia get special treatment?

(Posting here because Sannse hasn't commented at all on the FFWiki.)}}

Monobook is still available in Preferences. You can change it to that if you want to (for now).--'''<span style="font-family:papyrus">[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:midnightblue;">Lapis</span>]]<span style="color:black;">Scarab</span></span>''' 17:07, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
{{Keyblade0|time= 17:13, October 24, 2010|text= @78.567-whatever. Please tell me that the mysterious person is joking. I mean, how can you ''like'' the new skin? It’s horrible! There are way too many problems with the new skin. Twice, I’ve tried it, and it was horrible. It felt like I’ve left the website, and gone into a wasteland! It’s unconstitutional that anyone should like that horrible new skin. I mean, what good does the new skin provide, besides making all the Wikis leave Wikia. It’s bad, “erases” pages, has many glitches, and causes everything to run slow!(And my CPU is fast!). Why change it, if it’s going to cause all of this? Just erase the new skin, or let it be optional. }}

{{ST|text=now,now let's playe fair, Keyblade0. Ok, so we finally have a normal uer who actually likes it, and that's ok, that's ok everyone's entitled tol their opinions. So i guess now it puts the Hate/Love ratio to 34/1 on this page alone, not exactly in your favor, Sannse}}

{{LapisScarab|time=19:11, October 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=It's still 35/0. Judging from the anon's edits, that is Keyblade0's unregistered account.}}

ouch--[[User:ShadowsTwilight|'''<span style="color:#000000">Shadows</span>''']][[User talk:ShadowsTwilight|'''<span style="color:#505050">Twilight</span>''']][[File:Χ-blade (Incomplete) KHBBS.png|50px]] 19:14, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

{{The Inexistent|dusk='''Okay guys, she isn't listening anymore, so can we stop bitching and get back to the real discussion?  <big><big>Are we moving, or not?</big></big>'''}}

{{ST|text=if they're gonna be like that and not take our opinions into account, i guess we don't havea choice. congratulations, Sannse & co., all that hard work and all it's gonna get you is the loss of a s***-load of wikis. I hope you feel like you accomplished something}}

{{Uxie|time=12:33, October 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=Sannse, congrats on LOSING many wikis. I am "proud" of you for your "awsome" skin!

But then, where do we go? There is ShoutWiki (where I am moving my wiki to), but it's better that you decide. But I am just saying; if you want to move to ShoutWiki, then I can help you with that!}}

{{TalkSephiroth0812|text= I'm actually neutral in this issue, as a total Wiki-newbie I've no idea how complex a complete move of all stuff would be, that's for the KH-Wiki staff to decide. The only thing I would ask is to be notified if a move takes place so that I may either register anew at the new provider or can then contact Uxie for the "relocation" help.

One other thing, I read some of you have contact with the Final Fantasy-wiki, is their stance to this already settled?
And what about i.e. Wookieepedia for example...the Star Wars wiki is a quite big one, are they "satisfied" with this skin?}}
{{KrytenKoro|GUYS. STOP RAGGING ON SANNSE. She is trying to do her job, whether we think she should be asked to or not.

Now, PLEASE, I'd like some opinions on which of the target options we've discussed would work. Even if we all agree to move the wiki, that can't proceed until we agree where we would move it ''to'', so if you guys don't like Oasis, you need to start comparing options pronto.}}
Since this is the "complain about it to no end" forum, maybe we should move the practical part of the discussion to a new page and start over there.  --[[User:Neumannz|'''<span style="font-family:Gisha; color:#005400">Neumannz</span>''']], [[User talk:Neumannz|''<span style="color:black; font-family:Agency FB Bold">The Dark Falcon</span>'']] 16:07, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good. {{User:Organization 13/Sig}} 16:31, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

{{Uxie|time=04:57, October 26, 2010 (UTC)|zoe=Yeah, okay. This page is getting too hard for us to edit on, anyway.}}
{{KrytenKoro|text=Also, Sannse, [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Azul81677&curid=3807&diff=416440&oldid=411854 this] might explain why you guys are getting more "clicks" with the new ToC.}}

Okay, I read Sarah's blog about [[w:c:Community:User blog:Sarah Manley/Improving Accessibility on Wikia|the new look]] and I found out that while Monaco is being thrown away, they are keeping Monobook! Looks like they aren't forcing their shit in our faces after all! Either, they responded to the hate mail or they didn't tell us they were keeping Monobook, leading us to the conclusion that monobook is gone as well, scaring us to death. Anyway, monobook is back! [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] 21:24, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

{{SannseTalk|time=00:58, October 27, 2010 (UTC)|text=Sorry all, I couldn't get online as much as I wanted this weekend >_< I'm catching up now.

The Inexistent: For most people, their watched pages show there, and on some wikis their achievement badges.  There are likely to be other units in the future in that area, which is why it's been left ready for them

ShadowsTwilight: The jumping problem has turned out to be more persistent than we thought... Sorry about that, we are looking in to it!

LapisScarab: yes, there have been more negative comments than positive so far, I'm not trying to pretend otherwise.  This is a long-term project, and we'll be tracking actual usage of the skin as well as direct feedback on it as it settles in.

Monobook is not a complex skin with the same level of features as Monaco and the new look, so it's easier to keep that around.  It's the two skins that we would need to actively maintain that matter here... it's just not practical to keep both I'm afraid.

Sora: I agree, if we asked current Monaco users if Monaco is good enough, most would say yes.  But we want to do more, and to provide a skin that works for as many visitors as possible: including future visitors.  That's what we are trying to do with the new look

17master: the new look has only been live for a few weeks.  I know that some will never get used to it, but it's way too soon to know how well our user testing matches the actual effect of the change.

OavatosDK: Uncyclopedia is a parody of Wikipedia and so needs to look a  bit like it -- it's a historical thing, they moved to us with that in place.  It's not something we are extending to other wikis

Keyblade0: games like that don't really help... but it does actually show one of the problems for those who ''have'' given positive feedback -- they get shouted down and sometimes even attacked for their opinions.  Change is hard, and I understand the concerns people have about what's going on

Everyone: Something I would suggest, give it some time.  You have the right to copy the content to a new wiki whenever you want to...  I'd really recommend living with the new look for a while, before deciding anything

I hope I didn't miss anything in all that!}}
{{ST|text=While it is not unimaginable for people to get ''used'' to it, i don't find it concievable for people to ''appreciate'' it, especially with the articles being compressed to only taking up a quarter of the screen and yielding to absolutely nothing}}
What the hell were they thinking!?! Wikia are a$$holes! I simply canNOT navigate with Oasis! There are so many messups with it! Tabs don't work, pictures are   fu%^ed up, everything is so badly f&*@ed up that I can't even use wiki with oasis! I don't even know how to edit and do my job anymore! #$&#%*@&#*$(%&! I suggest we move! Have a nice day, and thank you for choosing Mar rants airlineMar 02:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

And also, every logo changes with Oasis. Why would they change the logos? That is highly vandalism! [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] 22:46, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

{{ST|text=SON OF A BASTARD!!!!! WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR THESE PEOPLE TO LISTEN!?!?}}

{{Soxra|mad=Sorry, Sannse. I can't see sense in anything you've posted. You want us to get used to this skin... and provide ample reason for future users to join Wikia. Then answer me this: Why do pages only take up a quarter of the width of the screen? People don't use 640x480 resolutions anymore--on my 1920x1080 laptop I can hardly stand to look at a page because of all the squishing that takes place. We rely on images to convey our encyclopedic content and you're just pushing them out. It doesn't work.

Do whatever you want, it's your Wikia. But I'll urge you to keep in mind two things: 1) You shouldn't have to force change down the throats of everyone here. We get new users all the time--you can make Monaco look better without making a new skin. If you want to modernize it, leave it to the preferences menu. It's not too hard to maintain two skins at once. I've done it myself. (Don't just stuff technical jargon down our throats by saying it takes more resources--that's bull and you know it.) And 2) Keep in mind the big picture here--with wikis leaving and users p/o'd, you're going to lose a lot of ad revenue and a lot of loyal people. Why would you place so much on the line for so little gain?

As said, do what you want--but there's the bigger picture.|time=<span style="font-weight: bold; text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #000000;">[[ [[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">So</span>]][[User_talk:Soxra|<span style="color: #CC0000;">x</span>]][[User:Soxra|<span style="color: #FFC000;">ra</span>]] ]]</span> 17:09, November 3, 2010 (UTC)}}